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George Jung
01-04-2014, 11:05 AM
Interesting opinion piece in the Times.... an excerpt: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/04/opinion/nocera-brazil-is-abuzz-about-snowden.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0


“Why did they have to do this to us?” asked Santoro, posing the question many Brazilians still want answered. “Of course we have our disagreements with the U.S., but we are not enemies. What has also been maddening has been the lack of a clear explanation from the Obama administration,” he added. Yet for all that, Santoro doesn’t think that Brazil will give Snowden asylum. So far, the government has been coy, saying that because Snowden has not applied for asylum through the proper channels, there is nothing to talk about. The way it was explained to me, though, Brazil prefers to use what it likes to call “soft power” on the world stage — global consensus building, that sort of thing. Helping to create an Internet governance system fits nicely in that model. Giving Snowden asylum does not.
Meanwhile, the American government shows no signs of softening its stance of trying Snowden for espionage if it gets its hands on him. It’s worth remembering that another important whistle-blower, Daniel Ellsberg, was eventually put on trial for leaking the Pentagon Papers. The case was thrown out of court (http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0511.html) largely because of government misconduct, starting with the break-in of the office of Ellsberg’s psychiatrist.
At least as it concerns the N.S.A., government misconduct is now official policy. We know that thanks to Snowden. He needs a place to live. Why not you, Brazil?

slug
01-04-2014, 11:11 AM
If Obama was wise he would invite Snowden to return home and prosecute him.

Once found guilty Obamba should pardon him.

guilt will be proven... and Presidential pardon will benefit the national interest..

at present Snowden is a dangerous loose cannon.

George Jung
01-04-2014, 11:18 AM
Makes sense - in a common sense world. Not so sure in this case - that'd just be more fodder to fire at Obama, and in this case, I believe there's as many folk on the 'left' as the 'right' convinced Snowden is a traitor.

Jim Bow
01-04-2014, 11:28 AM
A government of the people, by the people, and for the people. He released information to the people. Where's the crime?

bob winter
01-04-2014, 11:33 AM
The extent of the NSA is vast but I would have been surprised if something along those lines didn't exist. Seems to be a lot paranoids in the US these days.

Gerarddm
01-04-2014, 11:34 AM
Remains to be determined. If foreign intelligence agencies benefited from his information, especially hostile ones, there's your crime for you.

ahp
01-04-2014, 11:54 AM
Remains to be determined. If foreign intelligence agencies benefited from his information, especially hostile ones, there's your crime for you.

Showing that these foreign powers benefited would be difficult in a court of law.

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-04-2014, 12:34 PM
The problem with Snowden's cashe is the vast scale of it. The info therein is dated and over time will become less important. But foreign spooks can look at this trove and determine our capabilites and how we do things. Then they build a defense that cuts us off.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-04-2014, 01:27 PM
Man deserves a medal.

Steve McMahon
01-04-2014, 01:44 PM
Man deserves a medal.

Yup, a lead one, fired from the barrel of a gun.
Every government in the word capable of spying at any level does it. Does that make it right - No. Does it make it necessary - Yes. No lives have been saved by his treason.

skuthorp
01-04-2014, 02:09 PM
Criminal behaviour by governments contravening their own laws is a given. It's just that we, and they are not used to being called on it and that our justice system is incapable of a prosecution.
And steve, "Yup, a lead one, fired from the barrel of a gun." How would that help? Or do you think that this behaviour, and rendition, and extrjudicial murder, and going to war on a lie is 'the price you/we pay for freedom'?

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-04-2014, 02:31 PM
Criminal behaviour by governments contravening their own laws is a given. It's just that we, and they are not used to being called on it and that our justice system is incapable of a prosecution.
And steve, "Yup, a lead one, fired from the barrel of a gun." How would that help? Or do you think that this behaviour, and rendition, and extrjudicial murder, and going to war on a lie is 'the price you/we pay for freedom'?

If you have evidence that the USA contravened it's own laws we have several federal district court judges that who like to hear it. At the moment the two judges are of completely opposite opinions on the legal staus of what the NSA is being criticised for.
As a result of the British monarchs use of treason charges to get rid of troublesome citizens the US Constitution makes it extremely difficult to convict anyone of treason.

Steve McMahon
01-04-2014, 03:33 PM
Criminal behaviour by governments contravening their own laws is a given. It's just that we, and they are not used to being called on it and that our justice system is incapable of a prosecution.
And steve, "Yup, a lead one, fired from the barrel of a gun." How would that help? Or do you think that this behaviour, and rendition, and extrjudicial murder, and going to war on a lie is 'the price you/we pay for freedom'?

My suggestion that he deserves to be shot for treason is a little bit tongue in cheek. The point is he broke a very serious law and should be tried on the charge by the court system of the country he betrayed. I am in no way defending any wrongs committed by any government anywhere. I expect that both China and Russia would agree that he deserves a medal of the type suggested.

George Jung
01-04-2014, 05:53 PM
A question that might be asked is - who, exactly, is the NSA 'working' for? I know what they would say - but appearances are troubling.

skuthorp
01-04-2014, 06:37 PM
I would say, and post WW2 history re intelligence files suggest it, that there's a largr amount of self interest involved.

George Jung
01-04-2014, 07:09 PM
Certainly - but whose 'self'? They're spying on their own citizens, for crying out loud...

George.
01-05-2014, 07:27 AM
Snowden's revelations really made people mad at the US down here, especially the bit about spying Petrobras during bidding for oil fields where US companies were involved.

If he made his way into Brazil somehow he would be given asylum because Brazil gives everyone asylum (except Cuban athletes). But I doubt it would be offered to him while he sits in Russia.

At least here, he would be able to speak freely, unlike the last 3 countries he stayed in... ;)