Ross M
10-26-2002, 02:49 AM
Author Topic: Screws vs. Rivets
Barnacle Bill
posted 03-24-2000 12:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am starting to build my first boat, a Joel White designed Catspaw. I notice that the instructions call for rivets. I understand the beauty and classic use of these fasteners but I felt that using screws that were countersunk and covered would give the inside of the boat a somoother appearence and leave less to step on with bare feet. My planking is 1/2" cedar and my frames are 1/2" oak. Seeing that I need to predrill the oak frames anyway I thought I would keep the tool plugged in and screw the planking with 3/4" stainless. I don't know how well bronze screws will go through the oak and any information on this topic would be helpful. Thanks a lot.
TomRobb
posted 03-24-2000 12:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If smooth were to be the idea, cold molded or frozen snot would win hands down. The rivets are one more thing to catch the eye and delight the soul. They also hold better and probably won't corrode away. Imagine how proud you'll be to have mastered yet another arcane skill. You'd be as one with untold generations of boatbuilders. Best of all Br. Bob will bless you and all your generations.
rickprose
posted 03-24-2000 01:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Branacle Bill, I don't have a picture of the Catspaw in my mind (I've probably seen one, just don't remember)but is it a lapstrake boat? If it is, why would you want to screw the laps together? Part of what gives a lapstrake boat it's strength and stiffness, is the planking lapped and fastened together. These planks will inevitably work, somewhat, and while that won't affect the rivets overly much, it will cause screws to loosen and begin to tear wood away from the insides of screwholes, and, eventually they'll pull right out and you'll have trouble, with a capital T. On lapstrake planking, rivets are the only way to go, unless you plan on using machine screws and placing a nut on the inside, as many older runabouts were made.
If, on the other hand, this boat is carvel planked, and you're only going to have fastenings at the frames, then screws are the man for that job. And I would recommend silicon bronze screws because they last longer than stainless, in my experience, and they are easier to remove for some reason known only to metallurgists. Bronze screws will go into oak without much problem, if you drill the proper size pilot hole, you grease them with a little bedding compound before driving and, most importantly, you do not drive them in with too much torque. I recommend starting them with a cordless screwdriver until they seat well, then finishing them with a hand brace. Good luck...
Bayboat
posted 03-24-2000 01:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would stick with the designer and use rivets. Stainless will break off in oak almost as easily as silicon bronze unless the hole is just right. For rivets, you can make very shallow counterbores for the heads and putty over them, for smooth topsides. You can clench the inside ends of the rivets rather than using roves if you don't like their looks. But roves are stronger. As for using screws, 1/2" cedar is too thin and too soft for successful plugging (bunging). You can't counterbore deep enough to hold a plug without weakening the plank too much.
Art Read
posted 03-24-2000 02:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only thing I would add is if you do go with screws, (assuming this is carvel planked... otherwise you REALLY want rivets!) definatly use silicon bronze and make yourself a little "test bed" with some scrap plank and frame material before you take drill and brace to those lovingly shaped planks! Bronze screws WILL want to let the heads twist off given enough torque. Find out how much! A little something to "lube" the screws before driving will help and if it's something that's a good wood preservative too, well, hey! Make sure you get yourself a good tapered bit with countersink attached or at least a couple different drills with the appropriate sized bits. I'm not personaly familiar with this design either, but as Bayboat has pointed out, 1/2 inch isn't enough meat to counterbore for bungs. If you're not planing to finish the ouside's "bright", you'll just want to counter-sink enough to keep the heads from standing proud after you fair the hull and then fill the holes with your favorite fairing compound before painting. Good luck with it! Send pictures...
Cedar Hill Boatworks
posted 03-24-2000 02:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming this is a lapstrake boat, theres nothing stopping you from screwing the planks to the frames, but you will not be able to countersink and bung the holes with 1/2 inch cedar. If you do decide to use screws, use silicon bronze only. A little linseed oil on the threads before you start them will make the going a little smoother. Be sure to use the proper size taper bit, or you will be twisting off screwheads or stripping out holes.
Nothing will ever work as well as rivets and roves on the plank laps. Nothing.
Take your time when you peen the heads over and they can look quite pretty. And like someone else said, Cleek will tip his hat in your direction.
Ian McColgin
posted 03-24-2000 02:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even through the frames you're better off with rivets since it makes a smaller hole, less stress, less splitting, and greater holding power. When finished, the inside - rove and peened over part - are perfectly smooth and may be the only part of y our job that doesn't give you boat bites when out sailing. Rivets can be a togetherness kind of thing with your partner - though come to think of it the only woman I did any riveting with is now my ex . . .
Bob Cleek
posted 03-24-2000 09:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, I'd be tipping my hat not only at the wonderfully salty appearance of a properly riveted planking job, either. Those of us who belong to the "curmudgeon crew" embrace these old ways not just because they are good looking or traditional, but because over hundreds of years, they have proven to be the best with good reason.
As has already been mentioned, 1/2" plank is too thin to countersink, let alone countersink and bung. In addition to that, assuming you were to use a properly sized tapered Fuller bit, you would still have a very hard time driving a screw that would not tend to split your 1/2" frames. A screw, even in a proper hole, exerts a surprising amount of outward force on the wood around it. Imagine how you'd feel if you'd just gotten almost finished planking up and as you put the sheer strake on, EVERY frame head split when you tried to screw that plank on... At that point, the best use for your "moaning chair!" would be to stand on while you put the rope around your neck!
The designer specified rivets for this reason. As for stainless fasteners, we don't need to go there. Suffice it to say you will, on this job, find rivets easier to install, better for the job, better looking, and a lot cheaper than screws.
Bayboat
posted 03-24-2000 10:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barnacle Bill: I hope the pro-rivet guys have talked you into using them. It's almost always a good idea to do what the designer says. Further to the comments in this thread about lubricating screws, many professionals
scrape them into a wax toilet bowl ring.
Cheap, non-messy, avoids adverse chemical effects of soap, and is more lubricative (is that a word?) than linseed oil or paint.
Don Danenberg
posted 03-25-2000 01:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian gets a 99, Bob a 100; This size frame will not take the splitting force of so many metal wedges. Put a couple curmudgeons (400lbs) aboard and wrack wind against wave to make headway and the frames that didn't split on installation will quickly do so.
Rivets are necessary for such tiny frames, they do not exert a splitting force.
Where is the true soul of the "Raggers?";
rivets are waaaaay cheaper. Don
Art Read
posted 03-25-2000 01:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeeze, Bob! What an image... "EVERY frame splitting as I hang the sheer strake..." I"m never gonna sleep again....
Mobjack46
posted 03-25-2000 03:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you had a frozen-snot boat Prozac would be the answer but because you are a real person, honest boat building is the only thing that will make sleep properly.
Bob Cleek
posted 03-25-2000 12:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, if all the frames split, it isn't that big of a problem on a lapstrake boat. All you do is spread filets of epoxy googe on the inside edges of all the plank seams, adding fibreglass tape if they are really pulling away from the frames already, and that should hold it all together just fine! LOL
Bayboat
posted 03-26-2000 12:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barnacle Bill: As you know, the Catspaw is carvel-built, so the advice in this thread on fastening laps, though OK, is immaterial. As I have said, stick with copper rivets, clenched or roved, for the frames. The advice of other respondents on splitting and other difficulties of screws into light frames is all good. For fastening hood ends and along the garboard next to the keel, the directions call for screws into oak. Use silicon bronze, not stainless. That's where you might have problems with broken screws, but good care in boring the holes can avoid that. Do the final tightening by hand. I don't use taper drills with countersinks and counterbores, since wood screw threads are not tapered except at the very tip. Regular straight drill bits will fit in most patent countersinks/bores. A hole with full clearance for the shank and not too small for the threads will give good results. Use wax, not soap to lubricate the screws. I scrape them on a wax ring gasket meant for sealing toilet bowls. Some wag is going to make fun of that, but it works just fine. It's cheap, and avoids the mess of dipping screws in linseed oil, paint or bedding compound, which unlike the wax will eventually harden and make the screw hard to remove if you ever have to. Make just shallow countersinks, and figure on putty to finish off the dimples.
[This message has been edited by Bayboat (edited 03-26-2000).]
Dale Harvey
posted 03-26-2000 01:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you are able to design a boat as well as Mr. White did, and don't have to ask questions of you peers, then you might have a right to build as you see fit. Until then do as you are told by the guy that knew. A change from rivit to screw will require a larger frame. Larger frames will change the weight, as well as the overall look of the vessel. Every time you change one thing, you effect three you don't even know about. When you cross the bar, and find yourself standing before your maker, do you want to hear him say " Son, you messed up one of Joel's good little boats and wasted some of my trees".
Barnacle Bill
posted 03-26-2000 08:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all I want to thank all of you who took the time to share your good advice. The vote is in and I will be learning to rove a rivet. The fear of the Ancient Mariner was instilled in me thinking of splitting all of those planks.
The Catspew dingy is a modification of a Herreshoff lapstrake dingy which was originally 11 1/2'. The Catspaw, redesigned by Mr. White, is carvel planked at 12' 8".
I guess I just fell into the modern syndrome that if I can do it easier and faster ...
I would never presume to be able to draw a boat much less design or change the design of one. As I say this is my first attempt at building a boat and I have a lot to learn. Thanks again and I know I will be back soon needing more help.
Bob Cleek
posted 03-26-2000 01:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill, here's a maxim that will serve you well building and working on wooden boats... I don't know who told me this, or when, but it was a long time ago and has never be proven wrong.
Whenever you find yourself about to do something different on a boat than the designer indicated, or the builder did before, make sure you FULLY understand why it was specified or done as it was in the first place.
It may be that you do have a better way to do it, but, ninety-nine times out of a hundred, when you figure out why the guy did it that way to begin with, you will not only acquire his wisdom along the way, but also save yourself a ton of grief.
You've got a good boat, and from what I've heard of them, excellent plans for a first time builder. Follow them closely and you won't go wrong. And, of course, feel free to come in here and ask away so we know-it-alls can inundate you with free advice! LOL
Rob Barker
posted 03-26-2000 05:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill,
For rivets try the square sectioned Hall and Rice rivets. They have a counter sunk head so they can be set flush with the surface of the planking (it won't be as smooth as counterbored and bunged, but as others have mentioned 1/2" thick is on the thin side for good bungs). If you need a source e-mail me.
thechemist
posted 03-26-2000 05:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wax ring gaskets for toilet bowls are beeswax, I think, not paraffin wax. I wonder if there is something there....?
Don Danenberg
posted 03-26-2000 09:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copper rivet and rove is easy and even fun, you'll probably want them to show in the bilge when you're done to show off your talents.
As for the exterior surface of your planks and the nay-sayers that think it not possible to bung 1/2" plank, I've done it sucessfully tens of thousands of times. Varnished mahogany runabouts like Gar Wood, Chris Craft, Hacker, Century and dozens of others are famous for their bunged, varnished, 1/2" planked hulls. During the immediate post-war period (46 to 49) Chris Craft temporarily resorted to 3/8" Mahogany planking and still bunged them. These power runabouts take far more jarring vibrations than a sail boat. Use a 1/4" counterbore and your bung depth-to-width ratio will be even better than the normal 3/8" bung in a 1/2" plank. You'll be free to varnish your hull.
Don
ACB
posted 03-26-2000 11:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, copper boat nails and roves are easy, fast and fun. They are actually quicker than screws. The best bit is when each fastening actually pulls together and draws tighter as
you finish peening over the head. The nail head will draw into the plank quite nicely as part of this process leaving the head about a couple thous below the surface of the plank - which will disappear when you finish paint it.
No argument. Oh yes, they are also cheaper and longer lasting than bronze screws (and far better than stainless!)
Scott Rosen
posted 03-27-2000 09:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll add my two cents, needless as it is.
The sight of a rivetted carvel hull from the inside of the boat is a beautiful thing. It is an obvious and visible reflection of quality of construction and care of design. Anyone who knows anything about wooden boats will be impressed by the sight of the roves and peened rivets on the inside of your frames.
[This message has been edited by Scott Rosen (edited 03-27-2000).]
Rob Barker
posted 03-27-2000 09:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, but Dan, you're talking about mahogany and he (we) are talking about cedar planking. In my experience cedar, being much softer, won't hold bungs as well as mahogany. Any counter sunk fastener set deep in cedar will squash it a bit and in 1/2" thick cedar that won't leave much between the head and the frame.
And cedar needs deeper bungs if you want them to hold.
Paul
posted 03-27-2000 02:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.......and this boat wasn't made to be planked in mahogany, it says so right in the building manual, the frames are to small.
Don Danenberg
posted 03-27-2000 07:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atlantic White Cedar (my 1959 BeetleCat-#955) is the most soft and punky Cedar I have had experience with.
During the immediate post-war (46-49) after Chris Craft had expended their mahogany wood stocks on landing craft and patrol boats, they planked their boats in Spanish Cedar and Port Orford Cedar and reduced thickness to 3/8" decks and 7/16" topsides and bottom planks. These were still screw fastened (7/8"-S x 2-1/2"-M frames) and bunged.
I can stick my thumbnail farther into Port Orford Cedar than I can into Atlantic White Cedar; what kind of sponge-wood are you using in a boat?
What article or 'common wisdom' have I missed that says thousands of production boats could not be?
Granted, thicker planking is preferred; my personal favorite plank job was 12/4 Burma Teak, but to say that a procedure used on thousands of production boats, now over 50 years old, won't work; is anathema. Don
[This message has been edited by Don Danenberg (edited 03-27-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Don Danenberg (edited 03-27-2000).]
Bob Cleek
posted 03-28-2000 12:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12/4 Burmese teak plank! WOW... I think there's a hull getting restored in England that should be about that... named Trincomalee or something like that. Where in the world did you run into 12/4 teak plank? Must be a hellofa boat!
Don Danenberg
posted 03-28-2000 08:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Bob, that was Harbinger, 1913 Stowe & Stowe, Bristol, England. 93' LOD, 117' LOA; 9"x9" futtocks doublesawn sistered to 9"x18" frames. Decks were 10/4 teak. Most of her 70 year old (in 1983)Grown English Oak frames, though, had to be replaced with Live Oak. Stem head repair weighed two tons, new horn timber (22"x26"x34ft), 4 tons. Took 2-1/2 tons of copper to sheath her to the waterline. That's the girl we made our own 12"x5/8" bronze rivets for. Learned a heck-of-a-lot on that one. I believe she still charters out of Antigua. By the way, the Burma Teak topsides and deck planks that came off went back on to the new frames. Don
Bob Cleek
posted 03-29-2000 12:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL... you answered my next question! You coulda build a whole 'nuther boat out of the old stock you took out of her! Sounds like a monster. What a project!
Barnacle Bill
posted 03-24-2000 12:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am starting to build my first boat, a Joel White designed Catspaw. I notice that the instructions call for rivets. I understand the beauty and classic use of these fasteners but I felt that using screws that were countersunk and covered would give the inside of the boat a somoother appearence and leave less to step on with bare feet. My planking is 1/2" cedar and my frames are 1/2" oak. Seeing that I need to predrill the oak frames anyway I thought I would keep the tool plugged in and screw the planking with 3/4" stainless. I don't know how well bronze screws will go through the oak and any information on this topic would be helpful. Thanks a lot.
TomRobb
posted 03-24-2000 12:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If smooth were to be the idea, cold molded or frozen snot would win hands down. The rivets are one more thing to catch the eye and delight the soul. They also hold better and probably won't corrode away. Imagine how proud you'll be to have mastered yet another arcane skill. You'd be as one with untold generations of boatbuilders. Best of all Br. Bob will bless you and all your generations.
rickprose
posted 03-24-2000 01:16 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Branacle Bill, I don't have a picture of the Catspaw in my mind (I've probably seen one, just don't remember)but is it a lapstrake boat? If it is, why would you want to screw the laps together? Part of what gives a lapstrake boat it's strength and stiffness, is the planking lapped and fastened together. These planks will inevitably work, somewhat, and while that won't affect the rivets overly much, it will cause screws to loosen and begin to tear wood away from the insides of screwholes, and, eventually they'll pull right out and you'll have trouble, with a capital T. On lapstrake planking, rivets are the only way to go, unless you plan on using machine screws and placing a nut on the inside, as many older runabouts were made.
If, on the other hand, this boat is carvel planked, and you're only going to have fastenings at the frames, then screws are the man for that job. And I would recommend silicon bronze screws because they last longer than stainless, in my experience, and they are easier to remove for some reason known only to metallurgists. Bronze screws will go into oak without much problem, if you drill the proper size pilot hole, you grease them with a little bedding compound before driving and, most importantly, you do not drive them in with too much torque. I recommend starting them with a cordless screwdriver until they seat well, then finishing them with a hand brace. Good luck...
Bayboat
posted 03-24-2000 01:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would stick with the designer and use rivets. Stainless will break off in oak almost as easily as silicon bronze unless the hole is just right. For rivets, you can make very shallow counterbores for the heads and putty over them, for smooth topsides. You can clench the inside ends of the rivets rather than using roves if you don't like their looks. But roves are stronger. As for using screws, 1/2" cedar is too thin and too soft for successful plugging (bunging). You can't counterbore deep enough to hold a plug without weakening the plank too much.
Art Read
posted 03-24-2000 02:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only thing I would add is if you do go with screws, (assuming this is carvel planked... otherwise you REALLY want rivets!) definatly use silicon bronze and make yourself a little "test bed" with some scrap plank and frame material before you take drill and brace to those lovingly shaped planks! Bronze screws WILL want to let the heads twist off given enough torque. Find out how much! A little something to "lube" the screws before driving will help and if it's something that's a good wood preservative too, well, hey! Make sure you get yourself a good tapered bit with countersink attached or at least a couple different drills with the appropriate sized bits. I'm not personaly familiar with this design either, but as Bayboat has pointed out, 1/2 inch isn't enough meat to counterbore for bungs. If you're not planing to finish the ouside's "bright", you'll just want to counter-sink enough to keep the heads from standing proud after you fair the hull and then fill the holes with your favorite fairing compound before painting. Good luck with it! Send pictures...
Cedar Hill Boatworks
posted 03-24-2000 02:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Assuming this is a lapstrake boat, theres nothing stopping you from screwing the planks to the frames, but you will not be able to countersink and bung the holes with 1/2 inch cedar. If you do decide to use screws, use silicon bronze only. A little linseed oil on the threads before you start them will make the going a little smoother. Be sure to use the proper size taper bit, or you will be twisting off screwheads or stripping out holes.
Nothing will ever work as well as rivets and roves on the plank laps. Nothing.
Take your time when you peen the heads over and they can look quite pretty. And like someone else said, Cleek will tip his hat in your direction.
Ian McColgin
posted 03-24-2000 02:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Even through the frames you're better off with rivets since it makes a smaller hole, less stress, less splitting, and greater holding power. When finished, the inside - rove and peened over part - are perfectly smooth and may be the only part of y our job that doesn't give you boat bites when out sailing. Rivets can be a togetherness kind of thing with your partner - though come to think of it the only woman I did any riveting with is now my ex . . .
Bob Cleek
posted 03-24-2000 09:45 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And, I'd be tipping my hat not only at the wonderfully salty appearance of a properly riveted planking job, either. Those of us who belong to the "curmudgeon crew" embrace these old ways not just because they are good looking or traditional, but because over hundreds of years, they have proven to be the best with good reason.
As has already been mentioned, 1/2" plank is too thin to countersink, let alone countersink and bung. In addition to that, assuming you were to use a properly sized tapered Fuller bit, you would still have a very hard time driving a screw that would not tend to split your 1/2" frames. A screw, even in a proper hole, exerts a surprising amount of outward force on the wood around it. Imagine how you'd feel if you'd just gotten almost finished planking up and as you put the sheer strake on, EVERY frame head split when you tried to screw that plank on... At that point, the best use for your "moaning chair!" would be to stand on while you put the rope around your neck!
The designer specified rivets for this reason. As for stainless fasteners, we don't need to go there. Suffice it to say you will, on this job, find rivets easier to install, better for the job, better looking, and a lot cheaper than screws.
Bayboat
posted 03-24-2000 10:59 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barnacle Bill: I hope the pro-rivet guys have talked you into using them. It's almost always a good idea to do what the designer says. Further to the comments in this thread about lubricating screws, many professionals
scrape them into a wax toilet bowl ring.
Cheap, non-messy, avoids adverse chemical effects of soap, and is more lubricative (is that a word?) than linseed oil or paint.
Don Danenberg
posted 03-25-2000 01:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ian gets a 99, Bob a 100; This size frame will not take the splitting force of so many metal wedges. Put a couple curmudgeons (400lbs) aboard and wrack wind against wave to make headway and the frames that didn't split on installation will quickly do so.
Rivets are necessary for such tiny frames, they do not exert a splitting force.
Where is the true soul of the "Raggers?";
rivets are waaaaay cheaper. Don
Art Read
posted 03-25-2000 01:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeeze, Bob! What an image... "EVERY frame splitting as I hang the sheer strake..." I"m never gonna sleep again....
Mobjack46
posted 03-25-2000 03:32 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you had a frozen-snot boat Prozac would be the answer but because you are a real person, honest boat building is the only thing that will make sleep properly.
Bob Cleek
posted 03-25-2000 12:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually, if all the frames split, it isn't that big of a problem on a lapstrake boat. All you do is spread filets of epoxy googe on the inside edges of all the plank seams, adding fibreglass tape if they are really pulling away from the frames already, and that should hold it all together just fine! LOL
Bayboat
posted 03-26-2000 12:54 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Barnacle Bill: As you know, the Catspaw is carvel-built, so the advice in this thread on fastening laps, though OK, is immaterial. As I have said, stick with copper rivets, clenched or roved, for the frames. The advice of other respondents on splitting and other difficulties of screws into light frames is all good. For fastening hood ends and along the garboard next to the keel, the directions call for screws into oak. Use silicon bronze, not stainless. That's where you might have problems with broken screws, but good care in boring the holes can avoid that. Do the final tightening by hand. I don't use taper drills with countersinks and counterbores, since wood screw threads are not tapered except at the very tip. Regular straight drill bits will fit in most patent countersinks/bores. A hole with full clearance for the shank and not too small for the threads will give good results. Use wax, not soap to lubricate the screws. I scrape them on a wax ring gasket meant for sealing toilet bowls. Some wag is going to make fun of that, but it works just fine. It's cheap, and avoids the mess of dipping screws in linseed oil, paint or bedding compound, which unlike the wax will eventually harden and make the screw hard to remove if you ever have to. Make just shallow countersinks, and figure on putty to finish off the dimples.
[This message has been edited by Bayboat (edited 03-26-2000).]
Dale Harvey
posted 03-26-2000 01:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you are able to design a boat as well as Mr. White did, and don't have to ask questions of you peers, then you might have a right to build as you see fit. Until then do as you are told by the guy that knew. A change from rivit to screw will require a larger frame. Larger frames will change the weight, as well as the overall look of the vessel. Every time you change one thing, you effect three you don't even know about. When you cross the bar, and find yourself standing before your maker, do you want to hear him say " Son, you messed up one of Joel's good little boats and wasted some of my trees".
Barnacle Bill
posted 03-26-2000 08:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First of all I want to thank all of you who took the time to share your good advice. The vote is in and I will be learning to rove a rivet. The fear of the Ancient Mariner was instilled in me thinking of splitting all of those planks.
The Catspew dingy is a modification of a Herreshoff lapstrake dingy which was originally 11 1/2'. The Catspaw, redesigned by Mr. White, is carvel planked at 12' 8".
I guess I just fell into the modern syndrome that if I can do it easier and faster ...
I would never presume to be able to draw a boat much less design or change the design of one. As I say this is my first attempt at building a boat and I have a lot to learn. Thanks again and I know I will be back soon needing more help.
Bob Cleek
posted 03-26-2000 01:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill, here's a maxim that will serve you well building and working on wooden boats... I don't know who told me this, or when, but it was a long time ago and has never be proven wrong.
Whenever you find yourself about to do something different on a boat than the designer indicated, or the builder did before, make sure you FULLY understand why it was specified or done as it was in the first place.
It may be that you do have a better way to do it, but, ninety-nine times out of a hundred, when you figure out why the guy did it that way to begin with, you will not only acquire his wisdom along the way, but also save yourself a ton of grief.
You've got a good boat, and from what I've heard of them, excellent plans for a first time builder. Follow them closely and you won't go wrong. And, of course, feel free to come in here and ask away so we know-it-alls can inundate you with free advice! LOL
Rob Barker
posted 03-26-2000 05:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill,
For rivets try the square sectioned Hall and Rice rivets. They have a counter sunk head so they can be set flush with the surface of the planking (it won't be as smooth as counterbored and bunged, but as others have mentioned 1/2" thick is on the thin side for good bungs). If you need a source e-mail me.
thechemist
posted 03-26-2000 05:49 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The wax ring gaskets for toilet bowls are beeswax, I think, not paraffin wax. I wonder if there is something there....?
Don Danenberg
posted 03-26-2000 09:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copper rivet and rove is easy and even fun, you'll probably want them to show in the bilge when you're done to show off your talents.
As for the exterior surface of your planks and the nay-sayers that think it not possible to bung 1/2" plank, I've done it sucessfully tens of thousands of times. Varnished mahogany runabouts like Gar Wood, Chris Craft, Hacker, Century and dozens of others are famous for their bunged, varnished, 1/2" planked hulls. During the immediate post-war period (46 to 49) Chris Craft temporarily resorted to 3/8" Mahogany planking and still bunged them. These power runabouts take far more jarring vibrations than a sail boat. Use a 1/4" counterbore and your bung depth-to-width ratio will be even better than the normal 3/8" bung in a 1/2" plank. You'll be free to varnish your hull.
Don
ACB
posted 03-26-2000 11:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, copper boat nails and roves are easy, fast and fun. They are actually quicker than screws. The best bit is when each fastening actually pulls together and draws tighter as
you finish peening over the head. The nail head will draw into the plank quite nicely as part of this process leaving the head about a couple thous below the surface of the plank - which will disappear when you finish paint it.
No argument. Oh yes, they are also cheaper and longer lasting than bronze screws (and far better than stainless!)
Scott Rosen
posted 03-27-2000 09:40 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll add my two cents, needless as it is.
The sight of a rivetted carvel hull from the inside of the boat is a beautiful thing. It is an obvious and visible reflection of quality of construction and care of design. Anyone who knows anything about wooden boats will be impressed by the sight of the roves and peened rivets on the inside of your frames.
[This message has been edited by Scott Rosen (edited 03-27-2000).]
Rob Barker
posted 03-27-2000 09:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, but Dan, you're talking about mahogany and he (we) are talking about cedar planking. In my experience cedar, being much softer, won't hold bungs as well as mahogany. Any counter sunk fastener set deep in cedar will squash it a bit and in 1/2" thick cedar that won't leave much between the head and the frame.
And cedar needs deeper bungs if you want them to hold.
Paul
posted 03-27-2000 02:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.......and this boat wasn't made to be planked in mahogany, it says so right in the building manual, the frames are to small.
Don Danenberg
posted 03-27-2000 07:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Atlantic White Cedar (my 1959 BeetleCat-#955) is the most soft and punky Cedar I have had experience with.
During the immediate post-war (46-49) after Chris Craft had expended their mahogany wood stocks on landing craft and patrol boats, they planked their boats in Spanish Cedar and Port Orford Cedar and reduced thickness to 3/8" decks and 7/16" topsides and bottom planks. These were still screw fastened (7/8"-S x 2-1/2"-M frames) and bunged.
I can stick my thumbnail farther into Port Orford Cedar than I can into Atlantic White Cedar; what kind of sponge-wood are you using in a boat?
What article or 'common wisdom' have I missed that says thousands of production boats could not be?
Granted, thicker planking is preferred; my personal favorite plank job was 12/4 Burma Teak, but to say that a procedure used on thousands of production boats, now over 50 years old, won't work; is anathema. Don
[This message has been edited by Don Danenberg (edited 03-27-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Don Danenberg (edited 03-27-2000).]
Bob Cleek
posted 03-28-2000 12:55 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12/4 Burmese teak plank! WOW... I think there's a hull getting restored in England that should be about that... named Trincomalee or something like that. Where in the world did you run into 12/4 teak plank? Must be a hellofa boat!
Don Danenberg
posted 03-28-2000 08:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Bob, that was Harbinger, 1913 Stowe & Stowe, Bristol, England. 93' LOD, 117' LOA; 9"x9" futtocks doublesawn sistered to 9"x18" frames. Decks were 10/4 teak. Most of her 70 year old (in 1983)Grown English Oak frames, though, had to be replaced with Live Oak. Stem head repair weighed two tons, new horn timber (22"x26"x34ft), 4 tons. Took 2-1/2 tons of copper to sheath her to the waterline. That's the girl we made our own 12"x5/8" bronze rivets for. Learned a heck-of-a-lot on that one. I believe she still charters out of Antigua. By the way, the Burma Teak topsides and deck planks that came off went back on to the new frames. Don
Bob Cleek
posted 03-29-2000 12:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL... you answered my next question! You coulda build a whole 'nuther boat out of the old stock you took out of her! Sounds like a monster. What a project!