PDA

View Full Version : Want to make your own Sails? - here's my prescription.



Quickie
12-22-2003, 06:11 PM
Like I have mentioned in reply to another thread on Sailmaking this is one of those areas, like rigging, where a great deal of voodoo magic is attributed to the topic. some of it is undoubtedly
our own fears of something that seems "too specialized" and a large portion the wives' tales and BS spread around by those who have money
to make on us or are afraid to admit their own fear of an unknown project.
WHY MAKE YOUR OWN SAILS
i can give a few compelling reasons-
the first, and biggest one is cost savings. the difference between one i build and one i could buy is staggering. by building your own,
you spend only 30-40% the price of store bought for essentially the same product.
THE SAME PRODUCT?
pretty much, yep. the days of the sailmaker excercising majic juju on the cutting floor
are long, long past. nowadays most everyone uses one of a handful of software programs to design your sail all or in large part. the cloth
is then cut on a plotter, which even etches the alignment marks for each panel, the overlap marks at the seams, the reef points...you get
the idea. most small and medium sized lofts do not own this equipment, so guess what? they send away for the material to be cut.
worse yet in a sense, many lofts just send off for the sail to be made somewhere that labor is cheap and then simply sell it to you. i
am not faulting anyone for trying to make a living here, just making a point.
most folk go to a sailmaker with little or no idea what they want, and let it be designed for them. to make your own, it is important to
know at least in rough layman's terms what you want and be able to communicate it. the concepts aren't particularly tough, and there are
many books which discuss sail design. jim grant's in particular are excellent, as are any writings by arvel gentry you can lay hands on.

IF YOU SAIL ENGINELESS: EVEN ABOVE COST SAVINGS, THE MOST COMPELLING ARGUMENT OF ALL IN MY
BOOK.
most lofts, like most sailing folk, do not understand what the performance considerations of an engineless boat really are. you get
to choose between expensive, fragile modern racing sails and so-called cruising sails which are generally way too heavy and ridiculously full cut. my sailboat had a nearly new main from a loft
famous for their cruising sails. it was soo baggy you could sit on the boom! you certainly couldn't point with the thing, and it took 10 knots just to get the wrinkles out. i recut the foot to flatten it as much as i could, and it helped a great deal, but it was still awfully full and would no draw better if it wasn't so heavy. what we really want would be something akin to a racing sail of 30 years ago. in terms of a main, this generally means a fairly fine entry with a moderate draft which is greatest about 1/3 the way back, and a stretchy foot. i think the full battened thing is probably not a good idea for a working sail. remember, our boats are working boats in the greatest sense. we have more in common in many ways with a fisher than a yacht...but we need to HAUL ASS. unless your boat was so designed, don't let anyone talk you into the battenless idea (I'm meaning short battens here - full battens are a pain in the backside and have no place on a sailboat in my opinion) or any of this loose footed nonsense unless you don't really care about performance above a reach.
THAT MUCH SAID, LET'S CARRY ON...
WHAT WE NEED NOW IS SOMEONE TO DESIGN OUR SAIL TO OUR GENERAL SPECIFICATIONS AND SUPPLY US WITH A COMPLETE MATERIALS KIT TO ASSEMBLE.
one word. sailrite. sailrite have been in this business for an incredibly long time, and are an excellent company to deal with. their catalog is free and is also available online. the website has a great deal of helpful info and articles, including everything you need to know to hotrod a home machine. this is pretty generous from a
company that sells specialized machines, and may give you an idea about the integrity of the outfit.
you call 'em up, and give them the measurements they ask for, then specify any particular requests you may have and any add-ons in terms
of heavier cloth, extra reef points, etc. if you need advice or have a special need, you will end up speaking with a very experienced sail
designer in person at no additional charge, who will MAKE SURE you get what you are after. cool.

NOW, LET'S KILL SOME MYTHS.

MYTH #1-HOMEMADE SAILS LOOK CRAPPY AND ARE NOT AS GOOD AS STORE
BOUGHT.
ha. they COULD look crappy, but if one follows the directions and does a good job of it--which isn't that tough--they're great. the sails are professionally designed to YOUR needs and basic specs., and the materials are supplied just like to the lofts. again, all you have to do is communicate your needs when you order the kit. then you have to try at it...you will have an occasional crooked stitch or something, but that's ok--it doesn't hurt the sail any. LEGENDARY
aerodynamicist, sail trim guru and bay area racing legend arvel gentry has built his own from sailrite kits for years.
MYTH #2-YOU NEED TO KNOW HOW TO SEW.
absoloutely not. putting together a sail is about using a machine and tools like anything else. the machine is pretty simple, and you catch on fast. i can sew sails just fine-covers and web gear too. i would never try to sew a shirt, and i still hem my pants with tape. i've seen several people learn how in a hurry, myself ncluded...and i've been involved in the construction of a reasonable number at this point and all have worked really really well and looked smart too.
MYTH #3-YOU MUST HAVE A SPECIAL MACHINE.
an industrial machine is very nice, but this is just more b.s. all a person needs is heavy old home machine from the yard sale or thrift store. you want as much weight as you can find, and the
biggest flywheel you can find. the machine needs to zigzag. open it
up, clean it and oil it well; then go to the sailrite site and avail yourself of the tricks and info for adjusting and hotrodding it for
best performance on sail work. machines with any notable amount of plastic, and machines with a slanted needle post do not make it.

MYTH #4-YOU NEED A BIG FLOOR
hah! again, it's a nice thing to have. all that is really needed is a floorspace that is about 5 feet wide and a couple of feet longer than
the foot of the sail. it can be done is less length, too, but it gets a bit awkward. i do know a guy who built a very nice 150% headsail
for a 27 footer in a 12x12' room!

SSSHHH! BIG SECRET!
things will go a lot smoother if you change needles as soon as the going starts to get tough. also, hose down the threadcone with regular silicone spray lubricant from the hardware store. makes a BIG
difference. as the cone goes down, hose it again to get it good and soaked all the way in.

OOPS, I FORGOT ONE--MYTH #5: YOU'LL RUIN THE MACHINE.
more bull. as long as it is sturdy, an old home machine will go and go and go. one guy i know wel his machine has been through 14 sails and counting and is still going strong. again, you want a heavy old beater, a beast like mom or
grandma might have had.

WHAT DO I NEED, AND HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?
--THE MACHINE, OF COURSE.
someone gave me mine, but i see them all the time betwenn 25 and 40 bucks.
--THE SAILRITE CATALOG!-NOT JUST A CATALOG, IT IS A HOW-TO WITH PICTURES AND MUCH USEFUL INFO.
check the project/vendor links on this group.
--NEEDLES
#16 general purpose, and a few #18's
--THREAD STAND (OPTIONAL)
nice to have, but a bent coathanger will suffice until you get sick
of it.
--ZIPPER FOOT FOR MACHINE
a must have for the boltropes, available at the friendly sewing store or from sailrite. if your machine comes with a box of goobers, you'll
probably have one already.
--SEAM RIPPER
as ye sew, so shall ye rip.
i've yet to see one that isn't crappy and won't break, so get a
couple-the cheaper the better (the 5.00 ones die just as fast as the 2.00 ones). from your friendly fabric store or sailrite.
--HAND PALM, HAND NEEDLES, AND SAIL TWINE
sailrite items. get at least the mid-priced palm, as the el cheapo ones are uncomfortable and were apparently patterned from a rather disfigured hand as best i can tell. the english needles are the best,and get a good number as they do break. dritz sell a "repair needle assortment" which you see in a lot of boating catalogs...they're
crap, and do not get the job done at all. maybe to fix a sailbag, i
dunno.
--HOLE PUNCH AND GROMMET SET FOR THE LUFF GROMMETS AND REEF POINTS
sailrite sell these pretty inexspensively, and you gotta have 'em. if unsure the right size, they can tell you. there are large and costly
grommet sets for the tack and clew grommets, but these can also be either hand sewn or webbed on with excellent and durable result. i'm
inclined to think the lofts use pressed grommets because they are spiffy looking and take 15 seconds each as opposed to 15 minutes.
--OTHER THINGS YOU PROBABLY OWN ALREADY
25' TAPE MEASURE
SCISSORS
RAZOR BLADES
HAMMER
VISE GRIPS
CENTER PUNCH

SO, HOW MUCH TO GET SET UP?
IF YOU SHOP SMART, AROUND 100.00., ASSUMING YOU ALREADY HAVE THE THINGS I THINK YOU DO.

CANVAS WORK
think of it--cushion covers you like, canvas gear and window screens that actually fit, custom bags for all the gear... the same machine and tools will do this for you, too.

WEB AND HARNESS GEAR--JACKLINES, TETHERS, YOU NAME IT.
A DISCLAIMER OF LIABILITY FROM ME, TOO.
sailrite have excellent instructions for making such things. here is the rub: they recommend v-92 weight thread, when the most your machine may handle is likely v-69 (the next size down).
here we go. i am not an engineer, nor am i a professional canvas guy,a professional rigger or whatever. i am not telling anyone how to
make their safety gear--that's up to you. for my own, i allow twice the overlap(and hence, stitching) area and do it with v-69. i make
sure i do a clean job of it, and i trust my own and my family's lives to it with personal confidence. i'm not encouraging anyone else to do
that, okay?

SOME RECOMMENDED READING:
YEAH, THE SAILRITE CATALOG--AND THE WEBSITE...SOME OF THE BEST TIPS
AREN'T IN THE PAPER ONE.

ANY SAILMAKING, DESIGN OR REPAIR BOOK BY JIM GRANT

ANY ARTICLES BY ARVEL GENTRY YOU CAN FIND ONLINE OR IN BOOKS

"THE BEST OF SAIL TRIM"--BOOK OF ARTICLES FROM SAIL

"THE COMPLETE CANVASWORKER'S GUIDE"--JIM GRANT

"WIND AND TIDE"--JEROME W. FITZGERALD

i hope this stuff helps or inspires...i have found this to be one of the avenues to affordability of my dreams and goals, and it was an intimidating thing until i just did it. if i can, so can anyone.

[ 12-22-2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: Quickie ]

rbgarr
12-22-2003, 06:24 PM
Reminds me of Garret Morris on SNL's Weekend Update repeating the news for the hearing impaired-

' AND THE TOP STORY IS...'

Quickie
12-22-2003, 06:30 PM
Well RBGarr you might have to enlighten me about your reply. I am a transplanted American living in Sydney at the moment.

Quickie
12-22-2003, 06:34 PM
Mind you I'll be back in the States not too long from now so MAYBE I'LL CATCH THE SHOW!

NormMessinger
12-22-2003, 07:00 PM
So, tell us Q. How do you really feel about making one's own sails?

On Vacation
12-22-2003, 07:08 PM
The beauty of capitalism is the sky is the limit. If you coming back to Hemerica, then go for it. Ideas turn into millions, if you take it upon yourself to go the extra mile and execute your dreams and imagination. I am sure many successful businesses have come out of just what we are seeing from you, feeling that you have the answers to a particular item. I wish you well, as I do anyone that goes that extra mile and seek your dreams, and makes it happen.

Quickie
12-22-2003, 07:10 PM
well Norm dont know if your being smart or not, but if i haven't explained fully my reasoning by now then too bad. take or leave my advice - whatever turns your crank. Sorry if the CAPITALS here and there upset anyone tho, but just trying to make points and thoughts stand out.

Quickie
12-22-2003, 07:21 PM
well oyster you too will have to enlighten me...."capitalism, imagination.........? You feeling OK? It's a post on making ones own sails from a kit! what I have discovered from this board in the last few days is that some guys talk in riddles here or just plain BS as well as some excellent well informed opinion. If you have something to say about my post on sailmaking wether good or bad then fine - but leave the riddle talk out.

On Vacation
12-22-2003, 07:45 PM
WHo me riddle or raddle? Nope, take your ideas and make thing happen. You appear confident with your own ability of sail making. Make it pay for itself. I like capitalism. Successful people in the world turns idea into successes, in the world of capitalism. Success comes from just what you display here, ideas that are smarter than the other guys, the willingness to execute and arrogance comes from confidence. This is also a good trait. Bill Gates comes to mind when we look at taking another guys ideas and making it better than anyone else. All things are possible, if you only believe. Good luck. Anything else you need to know from me?

There was a song that seems to fits here, too:
"There coming to Hemerica"
Lets see who sang that tune?

Quickie
12-22-2003, 07:55 PM
Capitalism? Nuh. Wouldn't be in the delivery game if I wanted to be rich. I prefer Cuba.

Phil Young
12-22-2003, 08:52 PM
G'day Quickie mate. Look mate, just quietly, I don't want to piss on your parade or anything, and you've probably got some good info to share around. But mate you come storming in here shouting at the top of your voice about how much you know, and what a crock of ****e everyone else is, and wonder why people start taking the piss. This is just a bunch of people chatting, sharing ideas, asking questions. Have you ever walked into a yacht club or bar in a new port and thrown your weight around the way you have here the last couple of days? Go down OK did it? (Just glad you turned out to be a yank, I was a bit embarrased when you said you were from Sydney.)Take it easy, get to know some people, you might learn a thing or two. And vice versa. Catch you later.

Bob Cleek
12-22-2003, 09:05 PM
Aye, Quickie, much of what you say is very true. What you forgot to tell them, though, is that all those "simple" things have to happen all at the same time in perfect coordination or... heh heh heh.

For one thing, running a decent sewing machine as you describe isn't just "using a tool." Sewing machines take more maintenance than just about any similar piece of equipment. If you want one that will run dependably enough to do the job, you really have to get used to becoming a sewing machine repairman. And you have to make sure you have the right combination of needles and threads or all hell breaks loose all the time and you are forever ripping and restitching and untangling and cutting snarls out of the innards of the damn things.

Take my little Read's Sailmaker machine. A real jewel and it weighs forty pounds with nothing plastic on it except maybe the washer under the thread spool. Will it punch through just about anything? Sure, three or four layers of good stout dacron and a couple of leather chafing patch... piece of cake... for the sewing machine, but I can't say the same for the needles! If the needle isn't strong enough, snappo! LOL Or then there's the thread. Everything is set up just right, and half way up a ten foot straight seam with God knows how much material rolled up and stuffed between the needle and the arm post... KERFLOOIE! the thread decides to unravel, ball up and disappear down below into the shuttle compartment... LOL

I'd file this post under "easier said than done... but said and done right." Right on about sail needles and palms. NO reason to buy anything but the best palm and needles. I couldn't tell you where else to buy real needles but from Sailrite. Damn straight those "selections" from the chandler's catalogs are crap. They continue to carry them because most people are too stupid to know the difference.

I'd add one more thing... any of you who find Quickie's enthusiasm catching (yea, he tempted me a bit, too), try it out on a ditty bag or something little before you spring for a 500 square foot storm trysail... you save yourself a bunch of bucks and a lot of grief.

Todd Bradshaw
12-22-2003, 10:31 PM
Yep, he's enthusiastic and I'll certainly agree with his comments about Sailrite's people and products. I've had a good working relationship with them for almost 25 years (close enough that I've been sent blueprints for some of their product designs before they went to the patent office, to act as a witness in case somebody tried to rip-off the design before the patent went through). Both their products and service are absolutely top notch.

The problem that I have with Quickie's posts are that they are full of gross inaccuracies and just plain false information about sail design, sail shape and the sailmaking process as well as what actually happens in a sail loft. He's trying to cut through this "mysterious fog" which he believes is shrouding sailmaking and which is perpetuated for the most part, just to allow the sailmaker to overcharge his customers. Unfortunately, his efforts to explain these things indicate that he seems to be in more of a fog about many of them than most of the folks who frequent this board.

It's not worth the time to go through his post and correct and properly explain all the errors (again) but plenty of small lofts these days still design their own sails. Computer-plotting services charge a flat fee plus a charge per-yard for fabric plotted. In many cases, this adds up to nearly as much as the fabric costs and isn't economically feasable. The lofts which build traditional sails in particular - like those for a good percentage of the boats that forum members own, are mostly designed and lofted without computer-aided or plotted design.

I like it when people get interested and decide to try sailmaking, but his bottom-line dollar figure to get started is pretty far off. A couple of spur grommet setters and a hot knife from Sailrite will cost you better than his $100 start-up figure. Follow his ideas about trying a kit, but if you want to get into the design part of the equation you'll need to study sailmaking carefully, which Quickie obviously has not done.

Quickie
12-22-2003, 10:33 PM
Phil awww MATE (as you Ossies say) you are kidding me. there are some "know it alls" on here who "throw their weight around"
worse than me pal. Your telling me my opinion on how to make your own sails rather than go to a sailmaker is throwing my
weight around? I keep repeating this - but if what I say doesn't turn your crank then so be it. but if people wanna mock me with smartalec comment then you will get a
response for sure.
it always strikes me that strong personalities such as myself upset those in the sailing game most when I poop in their shrine of so called "expertise".

Quickie
12-22-2003, 10:45 PM
And as for you Todd ............. no problem with you pointing out all my "errors" if you want to. I must admit I have enjoyed your responses to my waffle over the last couple days.
You realise I have a SMILE on the face as I read all this! I am not as much of a jerk as you may think.
Anyway I am off to a
place called Coffs Harbour for XMAS/New year and then I have some hard labor to earn some funds before returning to the States. Not many deliveries worth pursuing in Southhemisphere at this time of year. Hurricane dodgers excused.
Fair winds and safe Sailing to you all.

J. Dillon
12-22-2003, 10:47 PM
I guess the delivery business is slow. It's now summer down there, Isn't it ? ;)

JD

Rogue Sailor
12-22-2003, 11:25 PM
I guess the delivery business is slow. It's now summer down there, Isn't it ? But it's Christmas everywhere!

Todd Bradshaw
12-23-2003, 02:48 AM
Quickie, I don't know whether you're a jerk or not and frankly, don't care. What I do know is that much of what you have posted the last few days about sailmaking has no basis in fact or sound sail design or construction, and that people following many of your suggestions would be making a mistake that they will pay for later. I'm glad you're enthusiastic about making your own sails, but wish you would spend some of that energy actually learning the theory and process involved in designing, using and building them.

At that point, perhaps we could have a meaningful discussion about various aspects of sailmaking and sail design. I suppose I should be offended by your comments about sailmakers, but they're so far off-base and out of touch with reality that nobody here is likely to believe them any way. A simple question posted on this very forum will quickly get you a whole list of good sailmakers, and their names will be posted by their customers who appreciate the care and quality that went into their sails. Your abrasive, ill-informed posts aren't going to do them or their businesses any harm, or mine either. Judging from the number of inquiries that I've recieved over the last couple days from people who read your first post and are interested in buying sails, you're actually helping my business - during a week where it is traditionally dead as a door-nail.

[ 12-23-2003, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

Wild Wassa
12-23-2003, 04:49 AM
Ahoy Quickie, (and awww quickie means something else in Oz too hey!, but that is to fill a gap in your lunch break), the desperation of wishing that even small sail repairs, might only take 16 months, has driven me to doing minor sail repairs. Like the spectator who needed a nice place to place her red hot metal coffee cup, ... on my carefully folded spinnaker. Would you consider repairing a group of crescent shaped holes in said spinnaker?

Warren.

Ian Wright
12-23-2003, 06:50 AM
I wouldn't make a bespoke suit for myself, I'd leave it to my taylor.
I wouldn't make a suit of sails for my boat, I leave it to my sailmaker.
He has a computer, we correspond via e-mail, but it is not used to design my sails. That is done by eye, and by experience.
I wouldn't talk anyone out of doing it themselves or sewing up a kit from Sailrite. But for a top quality result I go to a Pro.

IanW

Ken Hutchins
12-23-2003, 07:54 AM
Just want to add my 2 bobbins in here. I designed my TALLY HO II, dropped the trees, milled the wood, currently building the boat. Now I have done some upholstery work and have a machine that can sew the sailcloth - but my sails are going to be made by a sailmaker. Sailmaking is an art that requires a lot of experience. There is too much at stake in the performance and safety of my boat to risk making the sails myself.

J. Dillon
12-23-2003, 08:30 AM
I'd like to add that many here have built a boat maybe for the first time and also elected to make the sails. The resulting performance of the boat was disappointing to say the least. They questioned the design of the boat etc. Making your own sails is a noble project just like building the boat but there are sutle differences in sailmaking gainded by experience and know how that takes years to aquire.

I can listen to music played by amateurs and experienced pro's ......... there is a difference.
I think it's the same with sails.

JD

JAX
12-23-2003, 08:56 AM
MYTH #3-YOU MUST HAVE A SPECIAL MACHINE.
an industrial machine is very nice, but this is just more b.s. all a person needs is heavy old home machine from the yard sale or thrift store I have owned one of those "heavy old home machines", a sewing machine widely recommended for use on a boat for sailmaking and canvas repair, and I have owned a small industrial machine and a Sailrite.

The home machine would barely go through 4 layers of sail cloth, and then had many, many problems doing so. The machine was not usable for anything but two-layer sail repairs. On canvaswork, it would usually handle 4 layers of Sunbrella, but 6 was too much. The machine could also easily be thrown out of timing by heavy cloth. Again, usefull only for two-layer patches.

The small industrial machine could go through up to 8 layers of sailcloth (not well, but it did do it) and 8 layers of Sunbrella. Okay machine.

The Sailrite does 8 layers of sailcloth or Sunbrella and one layer of webbing plus sailcloth. And it stays in timing. The Sailrite was/is so much more useful than the two machines above that I saved much more in sail repairs then machine cost me. That said, there are repairs the machine is not up to, and for these repairs the correct equipment will be found at your local sail repair shop.

Sail lofts have several different machines on the floor for several different kinds of jobs. Sail lofts pay good money, in some cases VERY good money for those professional machines. You can buy those maachines, if you wish, but consider their weight (up to 150# for the machine, plus more for the large commercial motor to drive it, plus the table to mount it in) and their price (when I shopped in NYC's garment district [I live in NYC] I found at a bare minimum I needed to spent $350 for just the sewing head for a used machine capable of sewing sails [plus motor, plus table, plus bobbin winder], and if I wanted to I could spent nine thousand five hundred dollars (yup, $9,500!) or more for a used head, plus motor, plus table, plus bobbin winder.)

If you wish to do sail repair and if 48 pounds weight is not too much, the Sailrite is near impossible to beat. Brand new machines that work as advertised. If you wish to set up a sail loft, you want a bunch of machines, and you need to expect to pay profressional machine prices to get them. If you only wish to do canvaswork, the Sailrite without zig-zag is less money. If you wish to only sew dresses and curtains, a home machine is fine. But buying some machine from a garage sale or thrift store "because it is old and old machines had steel gears" is a total waste of money. It is like buying screw drivers or crosscut saws from the Dollar Store to do engine repair or interior cabinetry.

Only the master craftsman is good enough to use cheap tools, but the master craftsman never does use cheap tools in anything other than an emergency.

JAX
12-23-2003, 09:05 AM
a 500 square foot storm trysail. It seems you double typed there? I bet you meant 50 square foot, right? Otherwise, you have one hell of a big boat. smile.gif

cbob
12-23-2003, 11:36 AM
2 cents worth, got to agree with quickie for the most part, not abrasive just too close to the facts, and not NICE? enough for some. I started about 20 years ago, messing atound with a $75 used MonkyWard, heavy presser(sp?) foot and a higher amp motor. Got loads of personalized help from Jim Grant, sailrite, learned a lot, sail covers, covers, patches, even Bosun chair straps. Last summer , had my FIRST poor experience with a sailmaker, did what he thought I should want, and easier for him, at twice the first quoted price, rather than question my instructions, trying to make my old Pryde 9 oz. main last a couple more years, with a new leech, still S shaped, shortened battens. All other sailmaker experiences, since late '40's very POSITIVE. Helping an ex sailmaker employee do a new sailcover, with his older sailrite, discovered he was unable to set the tension adjustment, and that his $700 sailrite, in a cute box, was basically identical to my Monky Ward. BTW my main with a shelf allows boom siting and/or cat jybing. The best to my relatives in Briz. cbob

JAX
12-23-2003, 11:58 AM
To anyone even remotely thinking of trying to use a home sewing machine to do sail repair, let alone making, I kinding suggest you first try to run stitches around the back pockets of an old pair of bluejeans, taking particular care to drill through the corners. If that works, then try 8 or 10 layers of denim, equivilent to about 4 or 5 layers of sailcloth. If that works, tear the seams loose from both pants legs and restitch them but with both pants legs stitched together.

You can do it, but you must take care. Most people are VERY dissatisfied with both the performance of the machine and the resultant sail work.

If you wanted to build a house, would you buy a hammer at a garage sale, or a Stanley from a lumber yard? Maybe, the garage sale if you are building a birdhouse or a tree house for the kids.

Of course, if you frequent garage sales for years on end you *might* find a Stanley for $0.50 because the owner didn't know what she owned, it had come from her father's estate.

btw, the home sewing machine I mentioned above that was so highly reccomended by sailors that I ditched in favor of a new Sailrite? I sold it to a friend (on a serious budget) who had been using a sewing machine picked up at a garage sale that looked solid, for which she paid $25. She also had twice paid $50 to a sewing machine repairman to retime her machine when she had tried to do simple canvas work. She was and is happy with the machine I had, as she didn't want to sew much more than 4 layers of Sunbrella most times. Sail repair she intended to take to the sailmaker.

NormMessinger
12-23-2003, 02:51 PM
Opinions are like bobbins on a sewing machine. Everyone should have several.

As to sewing machines, when I made the first Sailrite kit, a 55 sq ft. ballanced lug for a MacGregor sailing canoe, the sailrite people said I could get by without a zigzag machine though zigzag is better, and besides, all that sail cloth would not pass through the throat of my little Singer Featherlite. So, I went out and boutght the cheapest White home machine that would zig and zag. My sister who is not satisfied with anything less than a $1,000 Bareinna (sp?) would have sneered at it for the pretty clothing she makes for daughters, granddaughters and dolls. I had a little trouble getting my cheap White to work but Sailrite knew exactly what I needed to do to make it work and it did. It went on to do three sails for Prairie Islander, sewing through eight or ten layers, no sweat.

So based on that limited experience I must assume that anyone that cannot make a small sail with a home machine isn't holding their mouth just right.

George Roberts
12-23-2003, 03:21 PM
Quickie ---

I am sorry you have been abused by so many for so little.

On Vacation
12-23-2003, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by George Roberts:
Quickie ---

I am sorry you have been abused by so many for so little.LOL!!!!!!Someone shows up, and in the first few posts starts to chastise a well seasoned memeber, with credentials, that many here can attest to as being quite knowledgable in the topic at hand, and we hear "POOR ABUSED NEW MEMBER" Balony.

[ 12-23-2003, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

Donn
12-23-2003, 05:33 PM
George...I don't know sails from kayaks, but sometimes you say things that just make me shake my head in wonderment.

Sailman58
12-24-2003, 07:51 AM
The last time I needed a sail I priced the kit at Sailrite, but found that I could get a completed sail from one of the established traditional sailmakers for less. It may be that since it was an oddball size (15 sq feet) that it fell thru a hole in the Sailrite pricing program, or just that there was too much overhead involved in producing a kit for such a small sail. Anyway, I bought my sail from the sialmakar.

Ron

JAX
12-24-2003, 09:13 AM
By going el cheapo, you can get a finished sail for less than the price of a kit, but el cheapo is el cheapo.

All the kits I have seen were quite decent quality materials to give an above average sail when completed, at a less than average price. In other words, you got a better quality sail for your bucks.

But, again, el cheapo is even less money for way less sail. Personally, having bought and sailed a boat that had el cheapo sails in the bags, I would never ever buy el cheapos myself. It took several years to wear those damned things out.

Todd Bradshaw
12-24-2003, 12:08 PM
Sailrite and most other computer lofting companies have a built-in minimum charge for firing-up the computer. On a really small sail it can throw the typical price structure off when you compare it to regular sailmakers. That's why that little bitty sail was priced as it was.

Sailman58
12-25-2003, 02:48 PM
To JAX:
This was definitely not an el-cheapo. This was (and is still) one of the best makers of small traditional sails on the east coast!

To Todd:
Thanks, sorta what I had figured.

Ron

[ 12-26-2003, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Sailman58 ]