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Ted Hoppe
10-02-2013, 05:17 PM
If you were driving around a naughty motorcycle gang... wouldn't you have the yielded more space to them?

I would have... maybe pulled over and let them pass down the road. This driver obviously did not understand that the right of way and the making right move are two different things. I am sure this altercation and threats are not over either.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztWs7RJ6Ne0

The Bigfella
10-02-2013, 05:25 PM
I'd seen the video, but haven't heard more of the story. Did something happen beforehand? Either way, using a vehicle as a weapon isn't cool.... using any weapon against a fellow human isn't cool.

StevenBauer
10-02-2013, 05:30 PM
I've read lots of coverage of this incident. Of course the stunt gang went way too far but what isn't being discussed so much is that before this video started the RRover driver merged into the group of bikers and knocked one of them over. That's why they are aggressively crowding him at the start of the video. Then once he ran over a rider and a bunch of their bikes the group rage took over. Very sad. The driver got beat up but the biker he ran over is paralyzed.


Steven

WX
10-02-2013, 07:34 PM
We had big problems with a Biker gang on the Gold Coast last weekend.

George Jung
10-02-2013, 08:12 PM
Hmmm... on another site, they'd said the bikers were flaunting the laws of the road, and took offense when the RR driver made a turn through an intersection - with no injury to the bikers at that point. That said, if I had a gang of bikers chasing me, I'd be damned if I'd stop for them. That'd be just plain stupid.

Reynard38
10-02-2013, 09:17 PM
We had big problems with a Biker gang on the Gold Coast last weekend.

The Toecutter, Condolini, and the Kid at it again? :)

genglandoh
10-02-2013, 09:35 PM
I've read lots of coverage of this incident. Of course the stunt gang went way too far but what isn't being discussed so much is that before this video started the RRover driver merged into the group of bikers and knocked one of them over. That's why they are aggressively crowding him at the start of the video. Then once he ran over a rider and a bunch of their bikes the group rage took over. Very sad. The driver got beat up but the biker he ran over is paralyzed.

Steven


This is a big mess and their is lots of fault to go around.
I just can not understand why the SUV driver panicked and drove over a few bikes.
He should be charged with hit and run.

Oysterhouse
10-02-2013, 10:03 PM
Been hearing about this all day--thanks for posting the link.

What a cluster**** of ignorance, aggression, narcissism and cowardice---on both sides.

Award winning Darwinism

Ted Hoppe
10-02-2013, 11:21 PM
This is truly a cluster like it was plucked right out of horrid video game grand theft auto 5. these gangs imatating the game really brought the circus during this group ride. the driver was nearly as clueless in his presumption of personal rights and proper spacing as these foolish bikers. One could believe that stand your ground continues with weapons like this 6000 pound SUV or upheld by the 30 various hornet sporting bike mobs pumped on testoterone, group mentality and possible intoxicating influences seeking to detain and dealing their own vigilante justice. moreover the stereotypes of bad Chinese drivers and biker gangs looking for a fight has been perpetuated a bit longer because of this unfortunate carnival of bad choices and poor judgement.

Not to justify this criminal act... But many aware motorcycle enthusiasts know, the chances of a driver at fault who strikes a motorcyclist who then is injured or dies from the accident rarely get more than a moving violation ticket regardless of motive, being under the influence or lawful neglect. Most times the driver can claim is they did not see the bike which relieves them from the manslaughter charge. Only when a court room is packed with biker friendies who attend the court dates and hearings do judges act on behalf of the motorcyclist, thier family and for the justice of the state.

Greg Nolan
10-03-2013, 12:39 AM
. . . before this video started the RRover driver merged into the group of bikers and knocked one of them over.

I would like to know where you have seen this reported. I have not seen any report of this. The Times reports that the first crash is the one shown in the video, where the cyclist stops short in front of the SUV. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/02/nyregion/motorcyclist-struck-by-suv-is-arrested-and-charged-with-reckless-behavior.html?ref=automobiles&_r=0

Whether there was an earlier incident with the SUV or not, it was more than stupid to surround the SUV, force a stop, approach the car, and try to open the door. Any reasonable person and his passenger certainly would have felt threatened, and would be justified in trying to escape (though I would have had my doors locked). What was the cyclist thinking when short-stopping in front of the SUV? He certainly earned getting bumped. What were those cyclists approaching the car intending -- a pleasant chat? And any bike that tried to block the SUV ran the risk that the SUV would, as it did, bolt forward to escape -- an act of reasonable self defense, not "using the vehicle as a weapon." Had he been using the vehicle as a weapon, there was a lot of opportunity for a lot more damaged bikes and riders.

Decades ago, when I put tens of thousands of miles on my cycle, mostly in NYC, I never saw this kind of group riding. But in recent years, I have seen a number of smaller groups of out-of-control riders on the highways in and near NYC -- often racing in ways dangerous to themselves and other vehicles. One of these incidents ended up with a rider, who had passed me at well over 100 miles an hour on a crowded highway, bouncing off a center guard rail a little way down the road, resulting in his helmeted head, and an arm and a leg being separated from his body.

Group (mob) mentality is a dangerous phenomenon, even when the group is having "fun."

The SUV driver may not have acted in the best way possible, but the cyclists clearly set out to intimidate him; they succeeded, and his fearful reactions were to be expected.

A different video, shown this morning on the television, shot from a point next to, or slightly behind the SUV, shows that when the SUV was first stopped, the cyclist that was hurt badly had stopped (or nearly stopped) ahead of the SUV in the adjacent lane to the right -- then at walking speed, placed his cycle crossways into the lane directly ahead of the SUV -- in what seems to be a clear attempt to block the SUV in. The SUV then accelerated ahead, swerving left in an apparent attempt to go around and avoid the cyclist who had blocked his lane after he had stopped.

There was no report this morning of any incident prior to what is shown on the video above that would have provoked the group of cyclists.

The police continue to investigate, and more information may be forthcoming.

Full Tilt
10-03-2013, 07:39 AM
+1^

StevenBauer
10-03-2013, 06:30 PM
I would like to know where you have seen this reported.

I read it on a motorcycle forum. I certainly can't vouch for its accuracy. Now I've heard the police found the guy who broke the Rover's window and gave the beating. He's lawyered up and will turn himself in to the police.


Steven

Reynard38
10-03-2013, 06:41 PM
The group was acting in a dangerous manner before the incident. This was not a responsible group of motorcyclists, it was a bunch of thugs. They threatened an SUV. Not a smart thing to do on a bike.

Waddie
10-03-2013, 06:50 PM
I have little sympathy for the bikers, and I often ride in groups on my Yamaha V-Max. These large groups act like they own the road - they have no manners and ignore the rules of the road.

But the bikers I really dislike are the bicyclists out in Colorado on narrow mountain highways in groups of 50 to over 100 slowly trudging up a mountain and refusing to yield the right of way to anyone in a motor car or truck. They block the entire road, for mile after mile, at a pace of about 10 mph.

regards,
Waddie

Bob Adams
10-03-2013, 07:04 PM
Interesting observation....not a Harley rider to be seen.

Rum_Pirate
10-03-2013, 08:41 PM
. . . if I had a gang of bikers chasing me, I'd be damned if I'd stop for them. That'd be just plain stupid.

+ 1

I understand that the SUV driver had his wife and young child (baby) in the vehicle with him.

Based on the vids I've seen and the comments on other forums.

Nicholas Scheuer
10-04-2013, 09:12 AM
Too bad the Rover guy wasn't carrying.

Ted Hoppe
10-04-2013, 10:02 AM
Too bad the Rover guy wasn't carrying.

We don't know the whole story. A driver with a 6000 lbs SUV already had a weapon. He took down 3 including a person giving assistance to an inflicted injury. Moreover - the driver was lucky to not meet a biker x50 carrying. I am sure many were.

I recently recovered a series videos for a job i did of a shooting in down town San Francisco. 3 people were shot - more than 30 other men and women brandished guns. Dozens of flashes were visable and more than 75 shell casings we're found. Is that the kind of country you want to live in? I don't.

wizbang 13
10-05-2013, 09:16 AM
This film is conveniently over when the beat down is about to happen

Greg Nolan
10-09-2013, 06:44 AM
... wouldn't you have the yielded more space to them?

I would have... maybe pulled over and let them pass down the road.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztWs7RJ6Ne0

In the center lane of a three lane highway with no shoulders, with several bikers riding and passing on both sides, how and where would you have pulled over?

Video of this group earlier in the day shows them cutting lanes at highway speed while doing wheelies (in the Flushing Meadows area of the city). The rider with the helmet cam was one of the riders doing wheelies. Smart, safe riding?

Full Tilt
10-09-2013, 07:18 AM
Breaking News

One of the motorcyclists ( these guys are not bikers) has turned himself in.

Guess what?

He's a law enforcement officer! A Detective, in fact.

From the report this morning it seems he's the one doing the helmet swinging.

Mike

Greg Nolan
10-09-2013, 07:25 AM
Of course the stunt gang went way too far but what isn't being discussed so much is that before this video started the RRover driver merged into the group of bikers and knocked one of them over.

There has been no report of any incident prior to the video in the press or on television.

What has been reported is that two undercover city cops (apparently off-duty) were part of the group of riders -- one reportedly is the rider who beat in a rear window of the SUV. The police are still seeking a number of others who took part in the beating, kicking. and stomping of the SUV drivers.

It appears (and this may change, of course) that the SUV did nothing wrong, was driving down the highway when overtaken by the riders, one of whom attempted to stop him and got hit when stopping too short, and other of whom got hit when the SUV tried to escape from the riders blocking the road. Farther down the road, the SUV was stopped again, an attempt was made to pull the driver from the car, and another bike was hit as the SUV escaped. The beating took place moments later when traffic blocked any escape.

It is really unfortunate that groups of riders like this contribute to the stereotype that motor cycle riders are dangerous thugs -- these riders were certainly dangerous as they rode, and certainly behaved like thugs in stopping the SUV and beating its driver.

Can sane, responsible cyclists do anything to counter the stereotype? I don't know. But assuming that the bikers were just out for fun and were picked on by a car does not help.

These riders, and apparently several other groups who were apparently riding in to Times Square to repeat an incident a year ago where bikes took over and blocked traffic in Times Square, do not deserve any form of support. Certainly there are car drivers who don't see cycles, who don't give bikes any respect, and even a few who affirmatively threaten bikes on the road. None of this justifies the kind of riding this group was doing earlier in the day or as shown on the video above. No sane or responsible rider cuts lanes on crowded highways at speed, or wheelies down the road at speed in traffic, as the video of the group riding earlier in the days shows that the rider with the helmet cam was doing. And the driver of a car in the midst of a group riding as this group was is perfectly reasonable to be at least nervous or afraid, reasonable to judge that the group lack judgment and is dangerous, especially if the driver is forced to a stop, and reasonable in taking defensive steps, including escape, especially with passengers (including a small child) in the car.

jclays
10-09-2013, 07:48 AM
Does anyone know what occurred prior to the SUV running over the first guy? It sort of looks like the first bike that was run over by the SUV purposely slowed down and the rider looked back for a reaction. In the past I've had this happen to me with another vehicle not a motorcycle cutting me off on the highway then slamming on his brakes after I honked at him.

StevenBauer
10-09-2013, 07:49 AM
There has been no report of any incident prior to the video in the press or on television.


But there have been reports on blogs and forums that this guy merged into the group of stuntaz knocking one of them over. That is what started the whole gang rage incident. They wanted him to stop as he had caused an accident but he just drove on eyes straight ahead not acknowledging what he had done. What the riders did next was horrible, but it's odd that none of the mainstream media stories have even mentioned the start of the incident.

Dan McCosh
10-09-2013, 08:32 AM
But there have been reports on blogs and forums that this guy merged into the group of stuntaz knocking one of them over. That is what started the whole gang rage incident. They wanted him to stop as he had caused an accident but he just drove on eyes straight ahead not acknowledging what he had done. What the riders did next was horrible, but it's odd that none of the mainstream media stories have even mentioned the start of the incident. I think the "incident" started with some 50 arrests of bikers in various parts of the city, as the gangs deliberately blocked traffic, street racing, etc. This was one place where it got completely out of hand.

Full Tilt
10-09-2013, 09:07 AM
Oh yeah, this is a reeeeeeal good thing.


http://youtu.be/dd8t3gRDwQA

Bob Adams
10-09-2013, 10:11 AM
Interesting observation....not a Harley rider to be seen.

This doesn't rate a single comment?

Full Tilt
10-09-2013, 10:43 AM
This doesn't rate a single comment?

I believe I addressed that phenomenon in #21.

Full Tilt
10-09-2013, 12:15 PM
The only common denominator between these motorcyclists, other than not being in cars, is that they appear to be Anarchists.

So weird to see multiple law enforcement officers amongst them. More bizarre even for a cop to be leading the assault.

Paul Pless
10-09-2013, 12:19 PM
So weird to see multiple law enforcement officers amongst them. More bizarre even for a cop to be leading the assault.

don't you pay attention to anything pa writes???

Paul Pless
10-09-2013, 12:21 PM
Interesting observation....not a Harley rider to be seen.that is an interesting point

Paul G.
10-09-2013, 01:31 PM
If you lot think thats a "biker gang" your pretty ignorant.The real issue here is the fear and panic that TV watching idiots have when they see a few bikes together. a group of bikes is not the Hells Angels. Assuming RR driver rode over and paralysed a rider then getting a sh!t beaten out of him is understandable and a bit of instant social feedback. But being the internet truth and opinion are just a momentary blur. Who knows what really happened!

Rum_Pirate
10-09-2013, 01:35 PM
If you lot think thats a "biker gang" your pretty ignorant or so fearful of real life you just dont get out much. That was a sunday ride of guys just like you. The real issue here is the fear and panic that TV watching idiots have when they see a few bikes together. a group of bikes is not the Hells Angels. If the RR driver rode over and paralysed a rider then getting a sh!t beaten out of him is understandable and a bit of instant social feedback. Erm, If the RR driver rode over and paralysed a rider in an effort of trying to get away from a massive group who short braked him then surrounded him is understandable and the RR wanted to safeguard his wife and baby then getting sh!t beaten out of him is understandable and then getting the sh!t beaten out of him IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE bit of instant social feedback.

Paul Pless
10-09-2013, 01:38 PM
If you lot think thats a "biker gang" your pretty ignorant or so fearful of real life you just dont get out much. It was a biker gang or club and they were on a scheduled ride which they had planned for months.

In related news, the police commissioner has stated that the SUV driver will not face prosecution.

Full Tilt
10-09-2013, 01:49 PM
It was a swarm.

Jim Mahan
10-09-2013, 01:49 PM
Another instance of the insanity based on values based on us versus them. Stock up before the hoarders get in. I got mine, f@ck you. If you disagree with my church, you're going to hell. If you threaten me, I'll kill you.

Oysterhouse
10-09-2013, 02:10 PM
Interesting observation....not a Harley rider to be seen.

Yep- even us lowly white trash, redneck, beer bellied, leather clad, chromed out, straight pipe, Hell's Actuaries wannabees-----have more class than this bunch.:d

Oysterhouse
10-09-2013, 02:22 PM
It was a biker gang or club and they were on a scheduled ride which they had planned for months.

In related news, the police commissioner has stated that the SUV driver will not face prosecution.


In general, most MC's (Motorcycle Clubs), whether or not they are mainstream family clubs, Harley clubs, import clubs, or even 1% (outlaw) clubs; will show restraint and courtesy when traveling as a pack. They realize that undue attention from Law Enforcement is detrimental to whatever they are up to.

I don't know of any legitimate or outlaw MC that would tolerate the actions of this bunch.

The probable blowback from this incident is that some perfectly meek and mild folks on a toy run somewhere are going to be bulldozed by a fearful milquetoast in a Tahoe because "I was scared-----they looked mean and their motorcycles were so loud".

cathouse willy
10-09-2013, 08:46 PM
The view from the video is quite clear, the suv driver made a mistake and rather than stop, apologize and offer to help which would have defused the incident he decided that motorcyclists are just in my way so I'm justified in running them over to get away I hope his beating was severe and long lasting, just like the rider he ran over.

The Bigfella
10-09-2013, 09:43 PM
We simply don't have the details to know. I've got an open mind on it, apart from knowing that I won't participate in rides like that.

There's simply too much missing to make a call.... leave that for the juries. I suspect that Mr RR had done something to precipitate the first scene on the video.... then it all went downhill. Anarchy indeed.



The closest I've come to being in a ride like that was a charity ride to present bursaries to hill tribe kids in a school in the Golden Triangle....

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Northern%20Thailand/245-2.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Northern%20Thailand/245-2.jpg.html)

No wheelies... but the speed limit was certainly broken... and nearly every red light was run.

The lead vehicle was a police car with siren and flashing lights. We were told to stick with him. He had his arm out the window directing oncoming traffic off the road too. Quite weird really.

Jazzman
10-09-2013, 10:03 PM
The rider who pulled up sharply in front of the SUV was very silly. I've been riding on the road (just did 4000 miles in the US) for a long time, and I know that one should try and stay well away from cars.
I think there were probably some shenanigans that led up to this. I've had run ins with cars before. I know what happens.
The trick is to know that every car has not seen you and they are all trying to kill you. I had a lovely old dear drive straight out of a side street into the side of my BUS. When I went to see if she was ok, she looked at me horrified and said "I just didn't see you".
I'd say there was some very discourteous driving and riding that day, with a most unfortunate ending.

Jazzman
10-09-2013, 10:07 PM
Yeah Bigfella, you'll never see me in a ride like that either. Half of those dopes can't ride- look at them in FullTilt's clip in #25.
Riding on the footpath?
Both feet down?
I'd say they were more likely to be hurt by one another.

Chris Coose
10-09-2013, 10:21 PM
Rule #1.

You've got 2 wheels, he's got 4.

He wins.

The Bigfella
10-09-2013, 10:22 PM
Hmmm.... I could post video of me undertaking a bus in Java... but things are a bit different over there. Most vehicles over there don't make sudden moves.... except for motorbikes. I did get run into, from behind, in Java - by a bike, when I stopped for a red light (silly me.... everyone knows that you can ride through reds for another 4 or 5 seconds).... and I did hit one bus. I hate to say it, but I could have avoided him.... he just pulled out so I bunted him with my bar-end protector. Not quite road rage, but more a "how about looking next time" message.

Hey Jazzman.... I did a job up there 20 years ago at the main bus depot. You work there?

Lew Barrett
10-09-2013, 11:08 PM
I've been all over this story for days. There is no evidence that the RR driver did anything aggressive prior to the video, which of course is why he is not going to be prosecuted. He was brake checked by the first biker (Cruz), at the opening of the video, and that is the first reported incident. In the video, they are on the West Side Drive, a road I was on a day before the incident. It's a 3 lane pegged for 55MPH.

The guy in the coma, Jay Mieze (Jay Meezee) has no license and never has had one. . Look at the record for him. (http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/03/edwin-mieses-jr-biker-injured-in-suv-melee-was-unlicensed/) If you'd like to know more about this sterling citizen and his record, google Jay Meezee or Jay Mieze. Don't forget to view a few of his you tubes; they are very revealing.

As for the bikers, they have a record of this behavior (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=81e_1380656714).[/URL] Same gang, same ride, two years earlier.

This is so hot on all the MC forums I visit that posting here seemed redundant, which is why I didn't bother to put it up myself. Of course, usual rules of fairness apply: nobody's guilty until the trial, so what did that horrible man in the SUV do to deserve this? Nothing, that's the reading so far and that's why he's not being charged.

They slashed his tires on the highway after the little bump to the Cruz moron who brought it on (and does it seem like all morons these days are named Cruz?) and that's when the mayhem begins. The SUV takes off with flat tires trying to get away. Stay calm? Not use the SUV as a weapon? How calm would anybody be in this case? They spike his tires on a three lane, begin to gather about him , and when he takes off, they give chase. Too bad about the turd who got hit while his bike was stopped on a three lane blocking the guy trying to get away. When the Rover finally gets caught up in traffic, they break into a car with the guy's wife and two year old daughter inside and proceed to act the fools, taking the law into their own hands against a guy acting to protect himself and his family.

You all know I'm an aggressive street rider and not beyond a bit of hooning, but this group was outrageous, out of hand, went beyond flaunting the law, disregarded the safety of themselves and everybody near them, and deserve not just to have any potential licenses revoked (and many ride without) and bikes taken with full force of law exerted, but also are unworthy of your sympathy.

The NYPD has no plans to prosecute the driver. It's not about being unfair to motorcyclists. That happens plenty often enough but is not in force in this case.

The NYPD off duty officer is getting the book thrown at him, as he should.

If you want more links to the various back stories and characters involved, just let me know. They're stunterz scum, and they were generally breaking the law and Cruzing for trouble. The evidence of your eyes should suffice. (Generally) Law abiding bikers everywhere are overwhelmingly outraged and one hopes, not injured by the mud being flung by this debacle.

Oysterhouse
10-09-2013, 11:17 PM
If you want more links to the varies back stories and characters involved, just let me know. They're scum, their ride was unsanctioned and they were all breaking the law. The evidence of your eyes should suffice.

Yep, I cant disagree with that a bit-----

I do fear that sensatiomedia will tar everyone on two wheels with the same brush.

Lew Barrett
10-09-2013, 11:42 PM
Yep, I cant disagree with that a bit-----

I do fear that sensatiomedia will tar everyone on two wheels with the same brush.

See if you can like this. (https://www.facebook.com/responsiblemotorcyclistssupportalexlienfamily?skip _nax_wizard=true#)

I've already directly invited my few motorcycling friends on Facebook to this party. It's not much, but I thought it was a good idea.
(Admission: I don't "do" much Facebook)!

The AMA issued a statement. It was weak.

Lew Barrett
10-09-2013, 11:47 PM
Here's the AMA statement in full (sent as a letter to members).

"An important message from the American Motorcyclist Association about the New York City incident involving an SUV driver and motorcycle riders



An incident in New York City on Sunday, Sept. 29, involving an SUV driver and some motorcyclists has generated widespread media coverage and stirred concern amongst motorcyclists nationwide.

The American Motorcyclist Association is troubled by the contents of a video that was taken of the incident – both for the serious injuries caused by the SUV driver and for the actions of some motorcyclists who apparently decided to take the law into their own hands. Because a criminal investigation is underway, we believe it is wise to refrain from commenting further on the specific incident until all the facts are known. We will continue to monitor the developments of the investigation.

As you know, the AMA has long advocated responsible riding. AMA members strive to represent motorcycling in a positive light. AMA clubs do the same, supporting rider education and raising funds for charitable causes in their communities. Each year, hundreds of well-organized, AMA-sanctioned recreational events occur where law-abiding motorcyclists gather to enjoy camaraderie and spend their tourist dollars in host cities and surrounding communities.

One unfortunate event of this kind, reported frequently by national and local media, can create a false image of all motorcyclists by the general public.

The safety of all road users, especially motorcyclists, is of the utmost concern to the AMA and we do not support actions by any road users that violate the law. The AMA is telling the media our position about responsible riding and urging them to report this incident factually and objectively.

As motorcyclists, we can all do our part individually by writing emails or letters and making phone calls to our local news media urging them to do the same, and explaining that the actions of a few do not represent the vast majority of the estimated 27 million motorcyclists in America.

The AMA encourages its members to utilize the media as a communication tool. The media can be helpful in getting our message out to the public or drawing attention to our concerns regarding the incident in New York City. To find and contact local or national media outlets, click here.

A sample letter is enclosed below…

To Whom It May Concern:

As a responsible motorcyclist and a concerned citizen, I am writing about the incident that occurred in New York City on Sunday, Sept. 29, involving an SUV driver and some motorcyclists.

I am troubled by the serious injuries caused by the SUV driver and by the actions of some motorcyclists who apparently decided to take the law into their own hands. Some in the media have reported the facts but others are sensationalizing the story. I urge you to report this incident factually and objectively.

I ride responsibly and do my best to represent motorcycling in a positive light. Those of us who ride support rider education and often raise funds for charitable causes in our community. The safety of all road users, especially motorcyclists, is of the utmost concern to me and I do not support actions by any road users that violate the law.

Each year, the American Motorcyclist Association sanctions hundreds of well-organized recreational events. At these events, law-abiding motorcyclists gather to enjoy camaraderie and spend their tourist dollars in host cities and surrounding communities.

One unfortunate event of this kind, reported frequently by national and local media, can create a false image of all motorcyclists by the general public.

Motorcycling has become an enjoyable mainstream activity and almost everyone today has a family member or friend who rides. The actions of the motorcyclists portrayed in the video of the encounter in New York City do not represent me, my friends, or the vast majority of the 27 million motorcyclists in America.

If you have comments please send them to grassroots@ama-cycle.org. "

Oysterhouse
10-10-2013, 12:02 AM
You are right, the AMA statement is weak, it reads exactly like it was written by lawyers, PR people and businessmen.

They could have just said-- "We don't condone this crap, these people are thugs, we are motorcyclist" and explain the difference.

PS. I appreciate you putting up the link---but I just flat out don't do Facebook.

Lew Barrett
10-10-2013, 12:06 AM
Y
PS. I appreciate you putting up the link---but I just flat out don't do Facebook.

I rarely do myself. It's a distraction from my main social media.....the bilge!

Anybody else who wants to do that page should feel free though.

The AMA statement is probably more harmful than beneficial. Literally, those morons should be thrown under a bus.....or an SUV!

There is a huge running discussion of this on the ADV forum, among others.

The Bigfella
10-10-2013, 12:08 AM
Thanks Lew. I hadn't followed it beyond the initial news. ADV had a thread but it seemed to move away from the issues and I hadn't revisited it. It sounds like the claim of him barging into the group may have been a cover story? I don't understand the whole starting point of the video though... WTH were all the bikes and the RR doing in close proximity? How did that all start? I do my level best to keep distance between myself and big moving things. I have had people not see me, and as we all know, that's common... and only once in recent years, someone deliberately try and hit me... which is a whole different ball game.

Different rules / reactions in different places. My colleague who's just back from living in the Middle East tells me that in some countries over there, the death penalty applies if you give a local the finger in traffic.... and I'm not talking Afghanistan... but one of the main oil countries.

Greg Nolan
10-10-2013, 01:33 AM
Steve Bauer --

“But there have been reports on blogs and forums that this guy merged into the group of stuntaz knocking one of them over . . . . What the riders did next was horrible, but it's odd that none of the mainstream media stories have even mentioned the start of the incident.”

Mr. Bauer, I know that this is the Bilge, but . . .

Unless those “blogs and forums” were backed up with photos, video, or a statement that the writer was an eye witness, they have no value, and you are foolish for repeating their allegations as fact. They are at best hearsay – based on rumor and speculation and nothing more. If there was such an incident with eye witnesses, where are they, why are they not forthcoming? Why are they not letting the world know? Why are you not publishing their names, so the police might interview them to see if the SUV driver did something wrong? At a minimum, how about giving links to the “blogs and forums” so that we might evaluate their credibility ourselves?

I know that the Bilge is not always the most rational place, but when making accusations, or statements of fact that are accusatory, even in the Bilge you should be careful what you say, and what you rely on.

“Blogs and forums” ? Which ones? Why not let the world know? I suspect that even you know that they are unreliable and based on nothing reliable or credible.

A bit of critical analysis is called for before you take a position, unless you wish to look like the idiots who were riding that day. You should not be so foolish to state as fact (see post #3) something that you later admit is based on unidentified “blogs and forums” – read “speculation and rumor.” You repeat the error in post 24.

If, and I must stress IF, there was an earlier incident related to a dropped bike at a highway merge, I suspect the bikers, busy with wheelies, lane cutting, and other “stuntz” (irony alert) did not see the merging car – merges on city highways where ramps are often short and the merge lanes often very short call for watchfulness on the part of both the entering vehicle and those on the highway. The earlier video of these riders going through Flushing Meadow make it clear that they were paying little attention to anyone except themselves as they showed off – even the rider with the video cam (apparently the same rider in Flushing Meadows and on the West Side Highway) was busy popping wheelies and looking around to see what was going on behind him. Speculating, it seems to me likely that if a bike was dropped in a merge area, it was a bike losing balance while riding stupidly rather than being hit, and subsequently the nearest vehicle was blamed for hitting the bike. As I say, speculation, but probably just as valid as the report that the SUV hit a bike (why has that biker not come forward?) at a merge. And of course, there is at least one other account – that the SUV occupants threw a bottle at the bikers through the sunroof. I give no more credence to that story than I do to the story of a bad merge, or my own speculation – until someone come forward with evidence – and not just speculation, rumor, and reports on unidentified “blogs and forums.”

If the SUV driver did start things off, before the video, I would welcome evidence of such. I certainly do not believe that all drivers are good and all cyclists are bad. But I have not seen anything that establishes anything about the SUV driver and his family except that they had the very bad luck to be in the way of these riders.

Nothing is fully established at the moment, and further investigation may give a more full and accurate picture of events. But the video shows what it shows – a mob of bikers making two attempts to stop an SUV unsuccessfully, two escapes with riders in the way injured, and a third stop followed by a mob attack.

Cathouse Willy --

“The view from the video is quite clear, the suv driver made a mistake and rather than stop, apologize and offer to help which would have defused the incident he decided that motorcyclists are just in my way so I'm justified in running them over to get away I hope his beating was severe and long lasting, just like the rider he ran over.”

Mr. Willy -- What is clear from the video is that a rider, after riding immediately next to the SUV driver for a short distance, pulled right in front (less than a car length) of the SUV and stopped short. Did the brainless rider think he was a man of steel? Did the idiot think that any driver has the reflexes to react quickly enough to not hit him? Did the really stupid rider not think that the SUV driver might have been paying at least some attention to the other “naughty” (OP’s cute characterization) riders who were surrounding him and riding dangerously close? He may have been defensively watching out for those riders so as to not hit them, not thinking that the numbnut in front of him would be quite so stupid?

It is terrible that this short-stopped cycle event led to another rider being horribly injured as the SUV driver attempted to take himself, his wife, and his small child out of danger. But the short stop rider brought his broken leg upon himself, and bears a large part of the responsibility for the other rider’s broken back.

No matter what the SUV driver may have done – and it seems fairly certain by now that he did nothing prior to the video – he did not deserve a mob beating , and the idiot short stop rider caused his own injury (a broken leg, if I understand the reports correctly).

Ted Hoppe

“He took down 3 including a person giving assistance to an inflicted injury. Moreover - the driver was lucky to not meet a biker x50 carrying. I am sure many were.”

Two things. One, the video shows three hits -- but none while anyone was giving anyone assistance. The short stop rider was the first struck; the second was the rider (badly injured) struck while the surrounded SUV was escaping from that scene, and a third was the rider who was hit while blocking the SUV’s lane when it was stopped farther up the highway.

Two – most anyone who was “carrying” was in violation of NYC’s gun laws (except for the rider who might have obtained an NYC concealed carry permit – and if you are correct that many riders were carrying, then the SUV driver was indeed lucky. Most of those riders showed, on the video above and on the Flushing Meadows video, that they lack the judgment to be carrying a cap gun. Now, maybe you disagree with the law, and maybe the riders disagree with speed limits, rules of the road, and common sense. That disagreement does not make them right.

Of course, two of the riders should have been carrying – the two cops. The one off-duty copy who apparently bashed in the rear window of the SUV was arrested and arraigned today on multiple charges, and the other, as I understand it, has been suspended pending further investigation, apparently at least in part because he failed to report the violations of the law that he undoubtedly witnessed.

“If you were driving around a naughty motorcycle gang . . .

“Naughty” ? Such a cute term for such mindless behavior. How about something more accurate? How about reckless? How about stupid? How about criminal?

I have put many tens of thousands of miles while riding a motorcycle, many on the streets and highways of New York City. I am well aware of the problems some few drivers sometimes cause cyclists. I am aware that the city's many highways without shoulders, with short access and exit ramps, and generally bad pavement require hightened attention by a rider, and close attention to others using the road. I am well aware than most cyclists do not deserve the suspicion and even fear that many car drivers feel towards cyclists.

But the riders in this video deserve no respect, and were, in my opinion, rightly feared by the SUV family. Such riders do spread their well-earned bad reputations to safe and sane riders (the vast majority). Naughty, naughty, naughty!

Oysterhouse

“I do fear that sensatiomedia will tar everyone on two wheels with the same brush.”

Undoubtedly true, unfortunately, and ever since Brando’s Wild One at least, not surprising. That is no reason for people like Ted Hoppe, Steve Bauer, and Cathouse Willy to jump to conclusions and reflexively blame the non-motorcycle.

Full Tilt
10-10-2013, 02:12 AM
Right On Greg!

Well said.

Thank you,

Mike Y>

Jazzman
10-10-2013, 02:36 AM
Bigfella,
Yep, Hamilton depot. Been here 4 years, 8 years before that in Bondi ( Waverley Depot).
I had some of the most magical riding in Bali. Up early before the traffic and heat, beautiful countryside.
It's great once you get used to people tooting you all the time!
I also did a three week Ferris Wheels tour in India which was pretty wild!

The Bigfella
10-10-2013, 04:35 AM
I did the business case to get that depot redeveloped after the earthquake. Never did see it after the work.

Jazzman
10-10-2013, 04:44 AM
Its quite nice, I think.

The Bigfella
10-10-2013, 04:47 AM
It sure wasn't before the works.... but we digress.

devout
10-10-2013, 07:14 AM
"New laws are being drafted in Queensland to ban motorcyclists riding in groups of three or more to stop them using numbers to intimidate."

Saw this in a newspaper in SA today. Probably reaction to similar incidents as the OP. How the hell will this get enforced? If someone goes for a ride with three friends, will he break the law? If you stop at a traffic light with four other (unknown) bikers, will you be breaking the law? I think it is crazy.

Regards!

Full Tilt
10-10-2013, 07:21 AM
"New laws are being drafted in Queensland to ban motorcyclists riding in groups of three or more to stop them using numbers to intimidate."

Saw this in a newspaper in SA today. Probably reaction to similar incidents as the OP. How the hell will this get enforced? If someone goes for a ride with three friends, will he break the law? If you stop at a traffic light with four other (unknown) bikers, will you be breaking the law? I think it is crazy.

Regards!

Several cities have banned loud motorcycles.

Another bafflingly difficult law to enforce.

Lew Barrett
10-10-2013, 12:26 PM
"New laws are being drafted in Queensland to ban motorcyclists riding in groups of three or more to stop them using numbers to intimidate."

Saw this in a newspaper in SA today. Probably reaction to similar incidents as the OP. How the hell will this get enforced? If someone goes for a ride with three friends, will he break the law? If you stop at a traffic light with four other (unknown) bikers, will you be breaking the law? I think it is crazy.

Regards!

One hopes saner minds will prevail. There is nothing wrong with group rides. There is everything to fear from "gang" rides. Legislating against one will not be an answer for the other. Enforcing existing laws is the key.




Another bafflingly difficult law to enforce.

A well put pun!

Laws already exist in this country, especially in California, where the momentum is essentially to ban aftermarket exhausts on the street. Enforcement is the key. Can't speak for Oz. In much of Europe, after market (unapproved) exhaust systems are captured, as they are in England, during MOT type reviews.

I'm not angry at anybody who at first blush thought the motorcycles were worthy of sympathy; it's often the case that riders don't get justice. It happens that the evidence we have does not support that this is one of those cases. Yes, these guys are being tried in the court of public opinion, but how often do you get beginning to end coverage of crimes on video, taken by the perps? They brought it upon themselves. Trust your eyes, folks! If there was more video to see that didn't condemn these guys, you'd be seeing it now. They (the riders) don't have any mitigating proof because it doesn't exist, not because the ride wasn't on video beginning to end.

Nicholas Carey
11-09-2013, 08:16 PM
Has the driver of the SUV been charged with assault with a deadly weapon yet?

Lew Barrett
11-09-2013, 08:29 PM
You mean the guy that drove off in an effort to protect his family?

Durnik
11-10-2013, 09:16 AM
You mean the guy that drove off in an effort to protect his family?

Exactly. What else would anyone expect a man to do for his wife & child?

peace
bobby