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wardd
09-25-2013, 11:14 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/25/tony-makris-elephant_n_3989341.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

i can understand killing for food but i never understood killing for sport

i can condone killing animals that have no resident predators to control population but killing creatures like whales and elephants i find that a bit distasteful

switters
09-25-2013, 11:29 AM
Hunting pays for conservation. Personally I don't get it either, the trophy thing. But I do hunt and eat elk, and look forward filling my cow tag in a month.

People want to stop hunting but still see large animals in the wild, ante up.

David W Pratt
09-25-2013, 11:39 AM
Depending on the age of the elephant, it might have been merciful. Elephants' lives are limited by their teeth, when the last set wears out, they slowly starve. Shooting it three times though... African game laws require fairly large caliber shells, one shot, properly placed should be enough

ljb5
09-25-2013, 12:17 PM
Depending on the age of the elephant, it might have been merciful.

Perhaps, but that's not why he did it.

In some instances, killing a human might be considered "merciful"... but anyone who eagerly volunteers to do it for fun is still a creep.

bamamick
09-25-2013, 12:42 PM
Studies have shown elephants to be very social and communicative animals, so yeah, I do equate this to shooting a whale or mountain gorilla or manatee just for the hell of it. And yeah, it makes me sick at my stomach to think about someone doing it just so they can brag to their buddies that they did it. I don't feel that way about big herd animals like deer and elk (although I am firmly in the don't-shoot-it-unless-I-am-going-to-eat-it camp), but an elephant?

Mickey Lake

Chip-skiff
09-25-2013, 12:43 PM
In the spirit of Man Bites Dog, I'd be happier to read the headline: Elephant Kills Gun Lobbyist.

Captain Intrepid
09-25-2013, 12:48 PM
I've got a lot of respect for those who hunt for food. Those who hunt for trophies, I find their actions detestable. I even find catch and release fishing somewhat distasteful.

bogdog
09-25-2013, 01:13 PM
I've got a lot of respect for those who hunt for food. Those who hunt for trophies, I find their actions detestable. I even find catch and release fishing somewhat distasteful.

Obviously the ethical fisherman does both. Which means some days we just catch and release(undersized, oversized, wrong species, wrong season) and some days we catch dinner. Of course there are many fishing waters in the US that are catch and release only.

BrianW
09-25-2013, 03:10 PM
For those who didn't know, no protein is ever wasted in Africa.

The meat from these hunts is eaten by humans. Locals in fact.

Elephant hunting is closely monitored, and where it's not, poaching is a problem. Just the way it is.

wardd
09-25-2013, 03:14 PM
i know that's the way it is but to kill something so noble says something about the particular human being

BrianY
09-25-2013, 03:25 PM
For those who didn't know, no protein is ever wasted in Africa.

The meat from these hunts is eaten by humans. Locals in fact.

Elephant hunting is closely monitored, and where it's not, poaching is a problem. Just the way it is.

Good to know. Let's hope that the tusks were hacked out and sold off too. The world definitely needs a few more elephant ivory trinkets and baubles and it would be a complete waste if they ended up mounted on a wall of a trophy room. After all, we wouldn't want the death of the animal for sport to be meaningless and pointless.

bogdog
09-25-2013, 03:38 PM
I'd only be interested in hunting Dik-diks in Africa or the deadly Chevrotains.

wizbang 13
09-25-2013, 04:10 PM
http://images.craigslist.org/00a0a_dH0XefO0Mfi_600x450.jpg

skuthorp
09-25-2013, 04:11 PM
If he wanted to kill some really difficult game there's plenty of poachers, all armed, sometimes in helicopters. Now that would be a trophy eh?

bogdog
09-25-2013, 04:24 PM
If he wanted to kill some really difficult game there's plenty of poachers, all armed, sometimes in helicopters. Now that would be a trophy eh?Taxidermy has really come a long ways, that could make for some really good mounts.

skuthorp
09-25-2013, 04:26 PM
OTOH, did he need to go to Africa?
http://www.factmonster.com/images/party_republican.jpg

bogdog
09-25-2013, 04:39 PM
OTOH, did he need to go to Africa?
http://www.factmonster.com/images/party_republican.jpgUnfortunately ESA protects that one.

Mrleft8
09-25-2013, 04:50 PM
Depending on the age of the elephant, it might have been merciful. Elephants' lives are limited by their teeth, when the last set wears out, they slowly starve. Shooting it three times though... African game laws require fairly large caliber shells, one shot, properly placed should be enough

Yup. Ivory tusks limit the lives of lots of elephants.
If I thought I could do it with any amount of success (which I don't think I could at this point in my life) I would like to hunt ivory hunters with a large caliber rifle and leave their bodies to rot in the sun.

CWSmith
09-25-2013, 05:47 PM
When I think of the ultimate gestures of selfishness and greed that can only be accomplished through a total lack of character I think of: cheating on your wife, lying under oath, and killing rare and magnificent animals like an elephant.

wardd
09-25-2013, 05:53 PM
When I think of the ultimate gestures of selfishness and greed that can only be accomplished through a total lack of character I think of: cheating on your wife, lying under oath, and killing rare and magnificent animals like an elephant.

sometimes the cop out is tradition

CWSmith
09-25-2013, 07:40 PM
sometimes the cop out is tradition

?????????????

wardd
09-25-2013, 07:44 PM
?????????????

there are alaskin natives that hunt endangered whales because they say it's traditional

my argument is there was a time before it was a tradition and eventually there will be a time when it's no longer a tradition, tradition is no justification for some things

BrianY
09-25-2013, 08:48 PM
Yup. Ivory tusks limit the lives of lots of elephants.
If I thought I could do it with any amount of success (which I don't think I could at this point in my life) I would like to hunt ivory hunters with a large caliber rifle and leave their bodies to rot in the sun.

....after pulling their teeth first, right?

CWSmith
09-25-2013, 09:12 PM
there are alaskin natives that hunt endangered whales because they say it's traditional

my argument is there was a time before it was a tradition and eventually there will be a time when it's no longer a tradition, tradition is no justification for some things

I thought you might mean that, but I honestly could not tell. I agree entirely. It may be civilization's fault that these animals are in decline, but at some point tradition will lose to reality. At the least, we should agree that if you own a casino you hunt like everyone else (not that Africans or Eskimos have casinos).

Hugh Conway
09-25-2013, 11:07 PM
For those who didn't know, no protein is ever wasted in Africa.

The meat from these hunts is eaten by humans. Locals in fact.

Elephant hunting is closely monitored, and where it's not, poaching is a problem. Just the way it is.

Unless of course people poison the elephants, then the protein is most definitely wasted. Or plenty of other times it's wasted. But, good to cling to some bs tripe from the past like the bwana white hunter fantasies!

Safari hunting has a glorious past. That era is dead and gone, marked by millions of tusks and corpses. Ivory has "tradition" as decoration, black rhino horns have "tradition" as an aphrodisiac, bear bile has "tradition". All interesting traditions that are killing the beauty of the world.

bobbys
09-25-2013, 11:21 PM
I hate to brag but you will not find any elephants in oregun since i got my red ryder 20 shot carbine bb gun last Christmas..

No renegade Indians or French Mimes either...

RodB
09-25-2013, 11:41 PM
What a stupid thread. Rich guys from all over the world hunt in the few remaining places in Africa that allow it and pay exorbitant amounts of money to do it. Believe me, where hunting is still allowed, it is rigorously regulated and as in the USA... hunting fees etc help with wildlife conservation. Whether you agree or disagree with sport hunting, (risking your life to do it in some cases) the only reason this was posted and the only reason The Huffington Post published it is to use it politically in the anti gun movement.

And you anti gun folks wonder why most gun owners are not interested in having a pleasant conversation about gun control .... duh??

RodB

Hugh Conway
09-26-2013, 12:09 AM
What a stupid thread. Rich guys from all over the world hunt in the few remaining places in Africa that allow it and pay exorbitant amounts of money to do it. Believe me, where hunting is still allowed, it is rigorously regulated and as in the USA... hunting fees etc help with wildlife conservation.

Zimbabwe? Surely you are joking. It's a nice article of faith though.

RodB
09-26-2013, 12:12 AM
Hey I'm no expert on Africa, but I do know a few guys who actually hunt there... and according to them... lots of fees and rules highly regulated...

My point here was the motivation for publishing the story ... a pro gun lobbyist goes hunting... see the pro gun folks are bad!!!

RodB

BrianW
09-26-2013, 12:21 AM
Unless of course people poison the elephants, then the protein is most definitely wasted. Or plenty of other times it's wasted. But, good to cling to some bs tripe from the past like the bwana white hunter fantasies!

I'm more than willing to read any accounts of a legally taken elephant being wasted. Please share your sources.


Safari hunting has a glorious past. That era is dead and gone, marked by millions of tusks and corpses. Ivory has "tradition" as decoration, black rhino horns have "tradition" as an aphrodisiac, bear bile has "tradition". All interesting traditions that are killing the beauty of the world.

What you're describing is poaching. You seem to be mixing activities to make your point.

Hugh Conway
09-26-2013, 12:27 AM
What you're describing is poaching. You seem to be mixing activities to make your point.

Err - there've been "hunters" of Rhino horn who were hookers who then took the trophy home to trade it:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/01/world/africa/ruthless-smuggling-rings-put-rhinos-in-the-cross-hairs.html
I'm no expert, but standard for corrupt bureaucracy's is to maximize the pita of regulations to maximize the cash taken from foreigners. "Hunting" may be regulated, clearly based on poaching/animal deaths the species aren't well protected.

Not "against" hunting, so much as against the current state of hunting for trophy big game. There's too much money for the too few animals remaining to be sold so cheap to be sustainable.

Duncan Gibbs
09-26-2013, 02:43 AM
None of these animals should be killed. Period!

If this excused as "sustainable" by the hunter, it only goes to show the deprivations of this man's character.

Killing these animals is evil; pure and simple.

snudz
09-26-2013, 02:54 AM
This indiscriminate poaching must be wiping out the entire fauna around the waterholes. Eighty dead from one poaching gang can't be sustainable, surely. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24234927

The Bigfella
09-26-2013, 07:43 AM
Can I point out that an elephant tried to kill me for sport....

bogdog
09-26-2013, 07:48 AM
Can I point out the high cost of elephant dung coffee, that alone should have people reconsidering shooting elephants.

Captain Intrepid
09-26-2013, 09:29 AM
Obviously the ethical fisherman does both. Which means some days we just catch and release(undersized, oversized, wrong species, wrong season) and some days we catch dinner. Of course there are many fishing waters in the US that are catch and release only.

Oh yes of course. I didn't mean releasing by catch, I meant targeting fish you can't keep.

wardd
09-26-2013, 10:16 AM
Can I point out that an elephant tried to kill me for sport....

what caliber gun did it have?

BrianW
09-26-2013, 10:43 AM
This indiscriminate poaching must be wiping out the entire fauna around the waterholes. Eighty dead from one poaching gang can't be sustainable, surely. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24234927

Agreed. Poaching is the problem for elephants.

There's one proven method to reduce poaching....

...legal hunting.

bogdog
09-26-2013, 10:52 AM
Agreed. Poaching is the problem for elephants.

There's one proven method to reduce poaching....

...legal hunting.

I haven't ever seen it. I doubt many conservation officers the world over have seen it either. Wildlife enforcement never lacks for work regarding poaching anywhere there is legal hunting for the species being poached. Africa's and Asia's wildlife problems are a whole different level of complexity.

Canoeyawl
09-26-2013, 11:08 AM
There's one proven method to reduce poaching....

...legal hunting.

http://sarahpalintruthsquad.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/00aerial-hunting.jpg?w=500

http://i726.photobucket.com/albums/ww261/maggiejean_photo/Bush/Palinwink.jpg

ljb5
09-26-2013, 11:50 AM
Agreed. Poaching is the problem for elephants.

There's one proven method to reduce poaching....

...legal hunting.

Sometimes it seems that the only difference between poaching and 'legal hunting' is whether or not someone has paid money to the appropriate authority.

Either way, I doubt it makes much difference to the elephant.

The hunters may be able to couch their intentions in some nominal or pretend benefit, but that's really not why they're doing it.

This man killed the elephant because he enjoys killing large and noble animals. The fact that he may have paid to do it, or there may be some ancillary benefit doesn't change the fact that he was motivated by the love of killing.

bogdog
09-26-2013, 12:10 PM
Sometimes it seems that the only difference between poaching and 'legal hunting' is whether or not someone has paid money to the appropriate authority.

Either way, I doubt it makes much difference to the elephant.

The hunters may be able to couch their intentions in some nominal or pretend benefit, but that's really not why they're doing it.

This man killed the elephant because he enjoys killing large and noble animals. The fact that he may have paid to do it, or there may be some ancillary benefit doesn't change the fact that he was motivated by the love of killing.

Sometimes the poachers pay off the conservative officers as was the case back in April when the last rhinos in Mozambique were slaughtered. Unfortunately it won't be the last time poaching and law-enforcement work hand in hand. But the drones are coming, it'll be harder for poachers to bribe the drone operators.

switters
09-26-2013, 02:32 PM
I think cows are just as noble as elephants, just not as large. Where does the line get drawn?

Bob Cleek
09-26-2013, 02:53 PM
Can I point out that an elephant tried to kill me for sport....

Once, I shot an elephant in my pajamas. What he was doing in my pajamas, I'll never know.

(With apologies to Groucho Marx.)

Bob Cleek
09-26-2013, 02:58 PM
I think cows are just as noble as elephants, just not as large. Where does the line get drawn?

I think India.

http://fairfoodforall.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/p1000426-version-2.jpg

BrianY
09-26-2013, 03:02 PM
I think cows are just as noble as elephants, just not as large. Where does the line get drawn?

There is no line, at least as far as the animals go. The line exists in the purpose behind the killing.

If you believe that all life has inherent value (and you might not...), then you have to believe that the taking of a life is not something to be done lightly. Hunter-Gatherer cultures understood/understand this. We kill and eat cows for food, which to some degree excuses the act of taking a life (although the vegetarians and animal rights people undoubtedly disagree...) The guy killed the elephant for...what?

Pleasure.

Not out of necessity, not for eating, not because it posed a threat. Simply for the "sport" of it. For the pleasure derived from stalking the prey and ending its life by shooting it. What does it say about a person that they enjoy killing?

Many people find taking pleasure from killing morally reprehensible. It's certainly considered abberant behavior in some circumstances (such as the teenager who kills cats or frogs just for fun, or the serial killer who tortures and kills his victims). For some reason though, we are expected to excuse the behavior when it's a guy with a license and a gun or bow hunting for a trophy. Then it's supposed to be OK. It's just a "sport". We're supposed to admire the skill of the hunter and forget about the fate of the prey.

It's especially outrageous when the victim is known to be intelligent and capable of emotion including the formation of strong bonds (which we often anthropmorphize as "love") with their mates, offspring and companions.

CWSmith
09-26-2013, 03:15 PM
Can I point out the high cost of elephant dung coffee, that alone should have people reconsidering shooting elephants.

I've not heard that one. I have heard about the little rat-like thing in Central America that eats the beans and people gather the poop. It's reported to be the most expensive coffee on the market. If someone wants it that badly, I'll let them have it. I prefer my coffee poop-free.


I think cows are just as noble as elephants, just not as large. Where does the line get drawn?

I think you know the answer to that. You are almost there on your own. I keep trying to do it, but pepperoni draws me back.

Hugh Conway
09-26-2013, 03:47 PM
I've not heard that one. I have heard about the little rat-like thing in Central America that eats the beans and people gather the poop. It's reported to be the most expensive coffee on the market. If someone wants it that badly, I'll let them have it. I prefer my coffee poop-free.

Civets in Indonesia.

The show the killing aired on epitomizes the moral vacuousness of hook & bullet porn now. Beautiful setting, beautiful creatures, some schmuck who's primary skill is plunking down dollars, pulling a trigger, and making gargoyle faces over a corpse - with a heavy dose of flag waving BS. If there's redeeming things about sport hunting, it doesn't show it.

bogdog
09-26-2013, 04:48 PM
Female elephants are cows, that's no bull neither. I like belted galloway cattle myself. I can't even recall how many heifers we have.

Duncan Gibbs
09-26-2013, 05:30 PM
I think cows are just as noble as elephants, just not as large. Where does the line get drawn?
African Elephant conservation status: Vulnerable
Asian Elephant conservation status: Endangered
Cow conservation status... One guess!

Whether the elephant is killed by a rich, white knob under the guise of legitimacy, or by a poor black knob illegally, the net result is the same: Less elephants.

That some of you think "legal" hunting is somehow helping the conservation status of elephants, with cash for conservation, (and nooooo, corruption doesn't exist in Africa where large wads of folding stuff is concerned... never), then I can only think that the human race is even more screwed up than I did before.

BrianW
09-26-2013, 06:59 PM
A person doesn't have to like elephant hunting to realize that elephants have a monetary value to the locals. They will get killed. It can be from normal poaching, poaching via bribed officials, or through the selling of a controlled number of animals to hunters.

Where hunting brings in more dollars than poaching, elephants are better managed. The locals are more likely to report poachers, receive the meat from the kill, and even possible employment.

RodB
09-26-2013, 07:25 PM
I don't necessarily think all the following pertains to hunting elephants or Lions or Cape Buffalo in Africa...but much of it pertains to all hunting.



What leaps to mind is a quote from my father. Someone had asked him why he loved to hunt so much; what was so great about being in the woods. His reply was, "If I have to explain it, you wouldn't understand." This really sums up the feeling many of us have.


An excellent article on this subject...
http://dailyreckoning.com/in-defense-of-hunters-hunting-for-reason-and-respect/

....In Defense of Hunters: “Hunter-Vationists” Are Paying for Everyone’s PartyHere’s a fact the animal rights crowd doesn’t like to hear, or to admit:
There wouldn’t be nearly as many (if any) vast tracts of publicly owned land to hike, bike, bird-watch, dog-walk, horseback ride, or generally gambol around on if regulated hunting did not exist. Funds generated by license fees and federal excise taxes on outdoor gear pay for these lands by an overwhelming margin. In fact, these monies dwarf all other sources combined — including the nearly nonexistent contributions of animal rights organizations (more on this in a minute). That means outdoor sportsmen are overwhelmingly the largest source of conservation funding in the United States….
Here are the numbers, according to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, the International Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, and other public sources:
· $746 million — Annual amount of money spent by hunters in the United States on licenses and public land access fees alone. Sportsmen’s licensing revenues account for more than half of all funding for state natural resource agencies
· $300 million — Additional monies contributed to wildlife conservation every year by the more than 10,000 private hunting-advocate organizations, like the National Wild Turkey Federation, Ducks Unlimited, and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation
· $4.2 billion — Amount of money sportsmen have contributed to conservation through a 10% federal excise taxes on firearms, ammunition, and gear since the 1937 Pittman-Robertson Act established the tax. Millions of acres of public-use land has been purchased, preserved, and maintained with this money.
From an ecological point of view, here’s what all this translates into: The needs of wild animals — especially endangered and threatened species — are immeasurably better served by the millions of acres of well-maintained, patrolled habitat that hunters’ dollars are paying for than the lies and propaganda dished out by animal rights groups. In fact, their efforts are among the most destructive forces facing wildlife of all types today….
Why? Because if the animal rights crowd got its way and hunting were outlawed, there’d be no money for the preservation and expansion of the habitat that houses not only game species, but the endangered, threatened, and recovering species as well. Like it or not, and believe it or not, sportsmen’s dollars are in large part what has made possible the wildly successful re-establishment of the wild turkey, black bear, bison, elk, and the bald eagle. Yes, it was vast tracts of public, protected land and plenty of dollars for reintroduction efforts that made these miracles of conservation a reality — not to mention the 20-fold increase in the number of wild elk, the 133-fold increase in the wild turkey flock, and the roughly 70-fold increase in the national whitetail deer herd over the last century.
If sport hunting and/or sport fishing were outlawed (animal rights groups are gunning for them both), many of these species would dwindle once again — because sooner or later, the government would no doubt pony up a lot of these lands for development. They’d have to; who else would pay for their upkeep and regulation? The animal rights crowd?
Uh, no....



Other links on this subject...;

http://hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aa022899.htm

Very even handed by a grad student ...

http://www.elwing.com/hunting/prohunt_essay.html

http://blog.syracuse.com/opinion/2008/06/in_defense_of_hunting.html

hanleyclifford
09-26-2013, 07:39 PM
I agree that hunting is a valuable contributor to wildlife management and I have no quarrel with those who do it. But I guess I'm getting old now because I have no interest in it. It saddens me a little when I have to dispose of skunks.

RodB
09-26-2013, 07:54 PM
I agree that hunting is a valuable contributor to wildlife management and I have no quarrel with those who do it. But I guess I'm getting old now because I have no interest in it. It saddens me a little when I have to dispose of skunks.

I think it can be a natural progression for some. I still enjoy dove hunting with my Lab, Carly... and also bowhunting for deer and feral hogs.

RodB

ljb5
09-26-2013, 08:17 PM
The fact that some people are willing to pay to indulge their lusts hardly makes it noble or admirable.

So hunters pay nominal fees to enjoy killing animals. That doesn't look very different than the creepy old man who likes to pay young girls to have sex with him. Sure, he might feel better that he's paying them instead of raping them outright.... and maybe he can rattle off a list of all the good things the girls (or their pimps) can buy with the money....

...but when you get right down to it, he's still just a creepy pervert. Worse yet -- a creepy pervert with a list of reasons for why he thinks he's doing good.

Captain Intrepid
09-26-2013, 08:18 PM
I don't necessarily think all the following pertains to hunting elephants or Lions or Cape Buffalo in Africa...but much of it pertains to all hunting.



An excellent article on this subject...
http://dailyreckoning.com/in-defense-of-hunters-hunting-for-reason-and-respect/



Other links on this subject...;

http://hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aa022899.htm

Very even handed by a grad student ...

http://www.elwing.com/hunting/prohunt_essay.html

http://blog.syracuse.com/opinion/2008/06/in_defense_of_hunting.html

You're the only one that's talking about hunting in general. Everyone else is talking about trophy hunting. One is a reasonable activity, the other degenerate.

hanleyclifford
09-26-2013, 08:25 PM
The fact that some people are willing to pay to indulge their lusts hardly makes it noble or admirable.

So hunters pay nominal fees to enjoy killing animals. That doesn't look very different than the creepy old man who likes to pay young girls to have sex with him. Sure, he might feel better that he's paying them instead of raping them outright.... and maybe he can rattle off a list of all the good things the girls (or their pimps) can buy with the money....

...but when you get right down to it, he's still just a creepy pervert. Worse yet -- a creepy pervert with a list of reasons for why he thinks he's doing good. Speaking of creepy, ljb5, that post is one of the most despicable POS I have read on this or any other forum.

bogdog
09-26-2013, 08:26 PM
A person doesn't have to like elephant hunting to realize that elephants have a monetary value to the locals. They will get killed. It can be from normal poaching, poaching via bribed officials, or through the selling of a controlled number of animals to hunters.

Where hunting brings in more dollars than poaching, elephants are better managed. The locals are more likely to report poachers, receive the meat from the kill, and even possible employment.

I doubt that dynamic will ever happen either in Africa or many parts of Asia. That's why rhino's currently get de-horned by conservation officers. Asian cultural use of many and varied animal parts is insatiable, of course rhino horns which are also used in Arabic janbiya, cost a small fortune and are coveted by wealthier Arabs.
China alone can easily gobble up the whole globe's wildlife, legally or not. The only thing that will stop it would be a change in thousands of years of faulty Chinese cultural beliefs. I don't see that happening either. Now where did I put my tiger balm?

ljb5
09-26-2013, 08:29 PM
Speaking of creepy, ljb5, that post is one of the most despicable POS I have read on this or any other forum.

You might not be willing to accept it, but I think there's a basic truth to it which you can't deny: If an act is deplorable, for its impact on one noble creature, you can't justify it on the grounds that you paid money to absolve yourself.

A creep who pays a fee to act like a creep is still just a creep, regardless of what others use the money is put to.

Duncan Gibbs
09-26-2013, 10:54 PM
Hunting endangered and vulnerable species is evil and wrong. No amount of 'reasoning' can ever justify such an act. One elephant killed is one less elephant of an already shrinking population.

Hunting animals (for food mind you) that are not on the endangered or vulnerable lists is another game altogether.

Killing ANY animal just for fun is sick, creepy, evil and depraved and demonstrates nothing else than a sociopathic personality.

In Africa, when you start throwing large wads of money about, corruption is almost inevitable. Don't kid yourself by thinking that "legitimate" hunting will help curb the poaching trade. It won't. Most of the money generated by the so-called "sport" doesn't reach those who are economically marginalised that undertake poaching activities, because they can make a fast buck out of it.

Scenic, wildlife and photographic tourism OTOH generate much larger sums of money because the economic basis for such an activity is much broader: Most people who visit Africa as tourists don't want to kill animals for trophies, and abhor the idea as well. This kind of tourism also helps employ much larger numbers of locals and gives many of them the potential for their own start-up business. It also gives locals a much, much stronger incentive to protect wildlife and wildlife habitat.

Trophy hunting is destructive on so many levels beyond the immediate death of an animal, whose species is already in danger of extinction. Social groups of animals are upset and can lead to further loss of life within the herd, (or pride, or other group), particularly if a dominant male is killed. A new dominant male in a pride of lions will kill all the cubs of the previous dominant male which has terrible knock on effects for the species as a whole. Elephant herds will cease using ancestral migration paths and be forced into conflict with villagers, who will deal with the problem usually with further killings. There are an estimated 32,000 lions left in Africa and the rate of "legitimate" hunting is about 600 a year. On that figure alone 2% of the population is being taken out by the "sport" alongside natural deaths and poaching. Add in the unseen impacts of trophy hunting and there is no justification for it whatsoever.

Trophy hunting is evil. Period.

The Bigfella
09-27-2013, 03:45 AM
I doubt that dynamic will ever happen either in Africa or many parts of Asia. That's why rhino's currently get de-horned by conservation officers. Asian cultural use of many and varied animal parts is insatiable, of course rhino horns which are also used in Arabic janbiya, cost a small fortune and are coveted by wealthier Arabs.
China alone can easily gobble up the whole globe's wildlife, legally or not. The only thing that will stop it would be a change in thousands of years of faulty Chinese cultural beliefs. I don't see that happening either. Now where did I put my tiger balm?

First up... tiger balm. Here it is. Hunt it all you want

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff112/igatenby/Malaysia%20and%20Thailand%20by%20Super%20Enduro/059-1.jpg (http://s240.photobucket.com/user/igatenby/media/Malaysia%20and%20Thailand%20by%20Super%20Enduro/059-1.jpg.html)


But, back to elephants. I was aware of the dangers of wild elephants and had read details of some deaths, including an Aussie vet in Asia, while I was there. She, unfortunately, got between a female elephant and its young'un.

What I wasn't aware of was that elephants will kill for fun. The one that got me was trying to kill me. When I showed the photos of before and after the attack to the American professor who was visiting the same park as me, she said that I was extremely lucky to have survived. It was an adolescent bull and he was trying to get me on the ground to do a headstand on my chest. I ended up with a badly bruised leg, where he tried to spear me with a tusk.

BrianW
09-27-2013, 11:19 AM
From Wiki....


Though elephant hunting has been banned for a 30-year period in Kenya, poaching has not reduced.

Given the poverty of many of the people, and the high value of elephant tusks, they are shipped overseas and sold on the black market. Although Kenya has many national parks and reserves protecting wildlife, elephant populations are still at risk, a problem which is made worse by corruption and some officials supplementing their income with permitting poaching.[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_hunting_in_Kenya#cite_note-AndersonGrove1990-17)

The Kenyan government has attempted to crack down on elephant poaching with the aid of multi-nationals but has often been too late in preventing the poaching of many elephants whose tusks have been seized en masse in cases at Nairobi Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jomo_Kenyatta_International_Airport) and in Bangkok Airport (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suvarnabhumi_Airport) where Kenyan tusks have often been imported.


Trophy hunting, purely as sport and as a conservation action, is now being considered for adoption in Kenya, as such a programme appears to have yielded positive results in the other Africa countries of Namibia and South Africa under a community managed conservation programme titled “Community -Based Natural Resource Management (CBNRM)”. Under this programme, while cash was offered as an incentive for sport hunting, the basic aim was wildlife control on the communal land for providing benefits to the community as a whole.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_hunting_in_Kenya#cite_note-trophy-18)

It is believed[by whom? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions)] that trophy hunting might attract elephant poachers into moving into legal hunting and leaving elephant trading.


The Food and Agricultural Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Agricultural_Organization)'s (FAO) report states: "Trophy hunting is generally self-regulating because low off-take is required to ensure high trophy quality and marketability in future seasons. Trophy hunting creates crucial financial incentives for the development and/or retention of wildlife as a land use over large areas in Africa, including in areas where ecotourism is not viable. Hunting plays an important role in the rehabilitation of degraded wildlife areas by enabling the income generation from wildlife without affecting population growth of trophy species."[19]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_hunting_in_Kenya#cite_note-hunting-19)

The policy of trophy hunting has been adopted in 23 sub-Saharan African countries. The income generated in total in Africa is quoted to be USD 201 million/year, derived from about 18,500 international hunting clients covering an area of 1.4 million km².[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_hunting_in_Kenya#cite_note-hunting-19)

Since there is a lack of consensus among the clients about the efficacy of this method of biodiversity conservation in Africa, a study carried out by the Africa Wildlife Conservation Fund indicates that if Kenya makes trophy hunting legal again, nearly 90% of the clients would be interested to pursue this activity in that country. In this context, the importance of effective regulation of hunting operators and clients has also been highlighted.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_hunting_in_Kenya#cite_note-fund-20)


Between 1970 and 1977, Kenya lost more than half of its elephants.[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_hunting_in_Kenya#cite_note-savetheelephants.org1979-21)

Large scale tourism promotion picked up in Kenya following the imposed hunting ban in Kenya since 1977. It has been noted that "photographic tourism", or non-consumptive wildlife use, is contributing 12% of Kenya’s GDP. Hence, some groups have recommended that tourism be promoted rather than any kind of hunting or consumptive wildlife use, as it could divert the attention of the government of Kenya from the policy goal of wildlife preservation.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_hunting_in_Kenya#cite_note-sport-22)



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elephant_hunting_in_Kenya

Quite simply, legal hunting and scenic tours both work. That's because, as I said before, the elephants have monetary value to the locals.

Jim Bow
09-27-2013, 12:16 PM
When I think of the ultimate gestures of selfishness and greed that can only be accomplished through a total lack of character I think of: cheating on your wife, lying under oath, and killing rare and magnificent animals like an elephant.
What about those guys who see the "Lane Ends Merge Left" sign, but keep on going till the very last second?

Bob Cleek
09-27-2013, 12:38 PM
The fact that some people are willing to pay to indulge their lusts hardly makes it noble or admirable.

So hunters pay nominal fees to enjoy killing animals. That doesn't look very different than the creepy old man who likes to pay young girls to have sex with him. Sure, he might feel better that he's paying them instead of raping them outright.... and maybe he can rattle off a list of all the good things the girls (or their pimps) can buy with the money....

...but when you get right down to it, he's still just a creepy pervert. Worse yet -- a creepy pervert with a list of reasons for why he thinks he's doing good.

Maybe so, but young girls aren't an endangered species. There's lots of 'em.

TomF
09-27-2013, 12:43 PM
I've heard others agree with the point BrianW is making. That the primary motive for poachers is financial ... and when the community's best financial future is tied to the ongoing existence of elephants ... the community self-polices. The same happens whether the financial reward for the community comes from foreigners coming to sport-hunt, or from foreigners coming to do eco-safaris with cameras. One of the best ways to protect elephants from ivory poaching, for instance, was to make the elephants more valuable to the locals alive than dead. There's something in this, however people may feel about sport hunting.

There's a similar argument to be made respecting some "heritage" breeds of domesticated animals. The best way to keep Berkshire or Tamworth pig breeds viable, for instance, is for people to eat them ... and discover that they like eating them. Which creates a demand for more Berkshire or Tamworth pigs.

Bob Adams
09-27-2013, 12:46 PM
What about those guys who see the "Lane Ends Merge Left" sign, but keep on going till the very last second?

There is a special part of Hell reserved for them.

CWSmith
09-27-2013, 12:53 PM
I've heard others agree with the point BrianW is making. That the primary motive for poachers is financial ... and when the community's best financial future is tied to the ongoing existence of elephants ... the community self-polices. The same happens whether the financial reward for the community comes from foreigners coming to sport-hunt, or from foreigners coming to do eco-safaris with cameras. One of the best ways to protect elephants from ivory poaching, for instance, was to make the elephants more valuable to the locals alive than dead. There's something in this, however people may feel about sport hunting.

There's a similar argument to be made respecting some "heritage" breeds of domesticated animals. The best way to keep Berkshire or Tamworth pig breeds viable, for instance, is for people to eat them ... and discover that they like eating them. Which creates a demand for more Berkshire or Tamworth pigs.

Hasn't it been shown that ecotourism produces more money in both the long- and short-run than poaching? Poaching is an effort by a few to get more money at the expense of the larger community (and I will admit to graft and corruption in countries where some of that money never gets to the community and a few rich guys owning the ecohotels). Done right, a live elephant must be worth far more than a dead one.

RodB
09-27-2013, 01:15 PM
You're the only one that's talking about hunting in general. Everyone else is talking about trophy hunting. One is a reasonable activity, the other degenerate.


Hunting endangered and vulnerable species is evil and wrong. No amount of 'reasoning' can ever justify such an act. One elephant killed is one less elephant of an already shrinking population.

Hunting animals (for food mind you) that are not on the endangered or vulnerable lists is another game altogether.

Killing ANY animal just for fun is sick, creepy, evil and depraved and demonstrates nothing else than a sociopathic personality.




I want to preface my comments here by saying as a lifetime hunter, I have never considered hunting any of the major game animals (historically... (lions, elephants, rhinos, leopard and cape buffalo), mostly because the only reason to justify hunting them in my mind would be the "risking your life" and the psychological thrill you might get from taking that risk.... When I was younger I remember being somewhat attracted to the "danger" in such an endeavor... but as I got older, this just didn't compute for me. Additionally, the constant decline in numbers of these game animals just adds to the reasons to not hunt them. This is not to say that I would not mount a 170 point class buck that I killed with my recurve bow... on my own.

If you read the history and background of early Africa, these animals were very numerous and of course many hunters/adventurers made their fortune by hunting elephants for ivory and being professional guides. These specific animals were called the " big five" of dangerous game. ... simply because so many hunters have been killed hunting these species in the past. In the late 19th century and the 20th century, hunters took great risks stalking such animals to within less than 30 yards and many paid the ultimate price even if their shots ended up killing the animal. As we moved into more modern times, the population of Africa increased and of course for many reasons, the numbers of these game animals decreased dramatically. The point is, trophy hunters of the past, actually risked their lives to hunt... and if you read anything about Africa you would know hunters from around the world traveled to Africa to test their mettle, and I might note... they were not deranged sociopaths.

There are two sides to any issue... and although many of us hunters have never considered hunting a lion or an elephant... it does seem a bit fuzzy where you draw the line as to whats ok... and what activity pushes the hunter towards being a degenerate with a sociopathic personality. If you eat it, does that make it ok? If you are hunting a prey animal, does that make it ok? If your hunting license fees are vital to maintaining wildlife habitat, does that make it ok? Do you understand that any hunting guide has to be a conservationist if he has any commonsense, or he would be out of business PDQ?

I'm thinking it is the following with which most have a problem .... hunting to kill a trophy when you likely don't have the skill or the time to achieve this on your own but you do have the money to pay a professional hunter to put you in the right spot to take the shot. To me, this is removing the majority of the challenge and fun from hunting... and to many others it appears the "hunter" is just paying to kill an animal.

I'm just trying to point out some of the facts surrounding this issue.

Here in the USA, most people understand that our deer and elk etc have virtually no predators, and that the annual hunting harvest not only is the source of funding for most states for wildlife management and conservation but the hunting harvest does a good job in keeping the deer population at a healthy number. I would like to point out that deer hunters usually try to bag the "trophy" buck rather than the young spike. Many large acreage landowners charge exorbitant fees to hunt their best bucks, with kill fees and guided and unguided hunts depending on the ranch. In a hectic busy society, if you hunt and do not have the time to scout and pattern a trophy buck, but you have the money, you can pay to have a professional guide put you in a spot to get a shot. Again, missing out on a lot of the fun in hunting IMHO.

Note: The financial prospects of trophy hunting are one of the strongest motivations for landowners to actively work towards maintaining a healthy deer herd... with all the best management techniques.


RodB



http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/08/130802-lions-trophy-hunting-extinction-opinion-animals-africa-conservation/


Why Are We Still Hunting Lions?






http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/sep/11/trophy-hunting-africa

Trophy hunting in Africa: 'Hunt operators are conservationists first, and hunters second'

Advocates of the controversial blood sport say it pays for conservation and creates an incentive to protect natural habitats


Marina Lamprecht, who owns Hunters Namibia Safaris, said: "Hunt operators are conservationists first, and hunters second. With human pressure on land there is less tolerance for wildlife . Trophy hunting is the single most lucrative form of commercial farmland use. The trophy hunters pay a day fee and a trophy fee but the meat remains the property of the community . It's a win/win situation. We also employ 19 people – that's 19 families supported by our work – and around 6,000 trophy hunters visit Namibia each year."

TomF
09-27-2013, 01:22 PM
A live eco-tourism elephant is more valuable than a poached one, yes. But a trophy-hunter-shot elephant is more valuable than a poached one too. And there is a continuing incentive in both cases, distributed throughout the local community, for an ongoing supply of impressive adult elephants, in impressive sized groups. But not for so many impressive (and hungry) specimens that they trample the villagers' crops and destroy their housing.

I suspect that the only consistent predation on adult elephants has ever been by humans - and our two species have lived side by side since before we came down from the trees. Predation isn't in and of itself an evil thing - we are predators, and part of the ecosystem too. But our predation must be thought-filled and conscious in its effects, not mindless.

RodB
09-27-2013, 01:31 PM
TomF... if you read up on the problems caused by elephants... its common that a particularly troublesome herd of elephants will continue to damage crops and kill people in villages...because of the social connections of elephants in a herd, many times the only solution was to eliminate that entire herd by shooting all of them. Professional hunters who provided this service as part of their professional license's fee, used to do this by sneaking into a heard with another hunter to help... from down wind, and then proceed to shoot every damn one of em at great risk to their own lives. Nowadays... if this is necessary, they do it from helicopters.

There are several of these types of incidents documented by Peter Capstick in his books on Africa.


RodB

wardd
09-27-2013, 01:35 PM
TomF... if you read up on the problems caused by elephants... its common that a particularly troublesome herd of elephants will continue to damage crops and kill people in villages...because of the social connections of elephants in a herd, many time the only solution was to eliminate that entire herd by shooting all of them. Professional hunters who provided this service as part of their professional license's fee, used to do this by sneaking into a heard with another hunter to help... from down wind, and then proceed to shoot every damn one of em at great risk to their own lives. Nowadays... if this is necessary, they do it from helicopters.

There are several of these types of incidents documented by Peter Capstick in his books on Africa.


RodB

your attitude is showing

RodB
09-27-2013, 01:57 PM
Wardd.... no attitude...its just very difficult to survive and shoot 10-15 elephants within minutes.... with two guys... the accounts I've read sounded incredibly dangerous.

RodB

switters
09-27-2013, 02:32 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/hillary-clinton-announces-program-aimed-at-stamping-out-elephant-poaching-ivory-trade/2013/09/26/3c258c40-26c1-11e3-b3e9-d97fb087acd6_story.html

Just found this, thought it might be of interest to some.

RodB
09-27-2013, 03:46 PM
Cool, I have seen several documentaries where the guards in preserves get murdered... its a dangerous job trying to catch those poachers...

RodB

Hugh Conway
09-27-2013, 04:29 PM
There are several of these types of incidents documented by Peter Capstick in his books on Africa.

If Capstick mentioned it, it probably never happened. There's more than a few who state he was full of it (as was, interestingly Meinertzhagen, who Capstick biographied)

wardd
09-30-2013, 04:46 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/30/elephant-says-goodbye_n_4004429.html


Chaney wrote that the female elephant in the image, which was taken in 2007, stood guard over the body of her friend for hours to pay her respects, chasing off birds and predators. She then wrapped her trunk around the other's tusk in a heartbreaking goodbye.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1377589/thumbs/o-ELEPHANT-BOTSWANA-900.jpg?6

Duncan Gibbs
10-01-2013, 07:51 AM
trophy hunters of the past, actually risked their lives to hunt..
And this is supposed to make them okay? They killed thousands upon thousands upon thousands of animals and are counter amongst the primary reasons many of these species have marginal conservation status.


and if you read anything about Africa you would know hunters from around the world traveled to Africa to test their mettle, and I might note... they were not deranged sociopaths.
They were also amongst some of the most brutal colonialists who basically forced whole populations off of traditional lands, committed vast massacres and raped the landscape. Deranged sociopaths doesn't begin to ascribe all their wonderful qualities.

Trophy hunting is sick and evil. Period.

BrianW
10-01-2013, 09:30 AM
Trophy hunting is sick and evil. Period.

You can use colorful language to your hearts content, and even have your own strong opinion on the matter, but it doesn't mean you're correct.

You've expressed your opinion, and that's all. Period.

bogdog
10-01-2013, 09:58 AM
You can use colorful language to your hearts content, and even have your own strong opinion on the matter, but it doesn't mean you're correct.

You've expressed your opinion, and that's all. Period.You've expressed your opinion, and that's all. It doesn't mean you're correct.

BrianW
10-01-2013, 10:35 AM
You've expressed your opinion, and that's all. It doesn't mean you're correct.

Very true.

However, I've not condemned the actions of others, or judged them. I've only pointed out the validity of how legal hunting can help to protect the elephants.

RodB
10-01-2013, 02:33 PM
They were also amongst some of the most brutal colonialists who basically forced whole populations off of traditional lands, committed vast massacres and raped the landscape. Deranged sociopaths doesn't begin to ascribe all their wonderful qualities.

Trophy hunting is sick and evil. Period.

Duncan, the only valid point you have to make is that elephant's numbers are in serious decline and that in current times, their future is in jeopardy. It certainly makes no sense to add hunting to their problems.

Trophy hunting in itself is difficult to separate from sport hunting generally... (hunting when you do not need to hunt for sustenance). Sport hunting all over the world has hunters striving to harvest the largest "trophy" animals, whether a guy in colorado is on a guided hunt for a trophy bull Elk, or the guy who can afford to go to Africa and hunt Cape Buffalo or the average working guy in south Texas hunting a trophy White tail buck on his hunting lease. I wonder if you would differentiate between hunting prey animals like deer in the USA, where there are virtually no predators and hunting is used as a management tool in addition to funding wildlife management... or guided hunting of Grizzly Bear on Kodiak Island?... just wondered.


Do you have any understanding of hunting... the basic natural instinct of all humans... Do you know anyting about the spiritual aspect of hunting? Most experienced hunters I'm betting would say that some of their most memorable and dramatic experiences in their lives happened while hunting. Perhaps it one of those things where you have to say to the non-hunter.. "If you have to ask, then you just wouldn't understand".
I'd recommend you read a very well written book on this subject... James A Swan's "In Defense of Hunting".




RodB

ljb5
10-01-2013, 02:48 PM
Do you have any understanding of hunting... the basic natural instinct of all humans... Do you know anyting about the spiritual aspect of hunting? Most experienced hunters I'm betting would say that some of their most memorable and dramatic experiences in their lives happened while hunting. Perhaps it one of those things where you have to say to the non-hunter.. "If you have to ask, then you just wouldn't understand".

"I wanted to because I felt like it" is a very poor justification for any activity. That argument comes perilously close to being able to justify nearly any activity. There are still some places in the world where people might use an argument like that to justify taking child brides or raping women because they feel it's a 'natural instinct' and they enjoy it.

I'm not sure I agree with you that hunting is a 'basic natural instinct of all humans.' I'll wager that I'm every bit as human as you are.

Or, maybe, what really makes us human is our ability to control or contain our 'basic natural instincts.' Some of the most established institutions in human history have spent much of the last couple thousand years preaching at us that we must not give in to our impulses.... that what makes us better than animals is not our ability to kill them, but rather our ability to control ourselves.

But your perspective may vary.

Hugh Conway
10-01-2013, 02:55 PM
However, I've not condemned the actions of others, or judged them. I've only pointed out the validity of how legal hunting can help to protect the elephants.

Validity? If it were valid there'd be wonderfully healthy elephant populations. Just more belief in a solution based on ideology.

Full Tilt
10-01-2013, 03:22 PM
What I wasn't aware of was that elephants will kill for fun.

Fun? I'd be surprised if that was his motivation.

I spent a month on a circus movie starring 'Sheba', a 35 year old female African ephelant.

Everyday I'd bring her fruit or nuts or the occasional sweet. She'd pat me down to find the pocket it was in.

We took a group photo with 50 or 60 crew crowded in around her and the two cast members on her back.

There was barely room to move, but Sheba stood in the middle with her trunk in the air, as gentle as a kitten.

The jet black Panther we had in the movie, however exuded ferocity and scared the sh!t out of everybody.

I don't think we should have elephants living in these latitudes. She hated the cold and suffered from arthritis.

The Toronto zoo, thanks to Bob Barker of 'Let's make a Deal' fame has just sent it's elephants to a sanctuary in California.

BrianY
10-01-2013, 03:27 PM
really[/I] makes us human is our ability to control or contain our 'basic natural instincts.' Some of the most established institutions in human history have spent much of the last couple thousand years preaching at us that we must not give in to our impulses.... that what makes us better than animals is not our ability to kill them, but rather our ability to control ourselves.



Precisely. I still believe that there is something wrong with anyone who finds killing pleasurable. Necessary, sometimes, but not a source of entertainment or pleasure.

bogdog
10-01-2013, 03:29 PM
Do you have any understanding of hunting... the basic natural instinct of all humans... Do you know anyting about the spiritual aspect of hunting? Most experienced hunters I'm betting would say that some of their most memorable and dramatic experiences in their lives happened while hunting. Perhaps it one of those things where you have to say to the non-hunter.. "If you have to ask, then you just wouldn't understand".
I'd recommend you read a very well written book on this subject... James A Swan's "In Defense of Hunting".




RodB

I've hunted since I was a child. Can't say as I've ever felt anything spiritual. Maybe those who already have "religious feelings" might have that type of reaction. When I'm hunting I feel both elation and regret. Elation in the hunt, regret in the kill. One of my BILs gets sick every time he takes a deer. I have another friend who always pets and apologizes to his kills. I can imagine that those with limited outdoor pastimes may feel that hunting has provided some of their most memorable and dramatic experiences. I couldn't say the same thing for myself and I've hunted all over North America including on the job. My dogs always have a good time when they can go hunting though, the wetter, muddier, and colder it is the better maybe it's spiritual for them.

J P
10-01-2013, 04:33 PM
Here in the USA, most people understand that our deer and elk etc have virtually no predators ...


... in the USA, where there are virtually no predators and hunting is used as a management tool in addition to funding wildlife management...

You ought to hear some of the hunters whine about predators where I live (Montana/Idaho). Especially wolves.

Speaking of predators, a big ol' mountain lion crossed the road in front of my truck a month or so ago. And just a few days ago my two burros and I had a stare-down with a cougar that was in my 'yard'. But that's another story and has nothing to do with elephants or gun lobbyists. Although, there was a gun involved ...

Just wanted to point out that there are indeed still predators in some parts of the USA, and some would say too many.
Good thing we have "wildlife management" these days. To manage the hunters.

RodB
10-01-2013, 05:05 PM
"I wanted to because I felt like it" is a very poor justification for any activity. That argument comes perilously close to being able to justify nearly any activity. There are still some places in the world where people might use an argument like that to justify taking child brides or raping women because they feel it's a 'natural instinct' and they enjoy it.

I'm not sure I agree with you that hunting is a 'basic natural instinct of all humans.' I'll wager that I'm every bit as human as you are.

Or, maybe, what really makes us human is our ability to control or contain our 'basic natural instincts.' Some of the most established institutions in human history have spent much of the last couple thousand years preaching at us that we must not give in to our impulses.... that what makes us better than animals is not our ability to kill them, but rather our ability to control ourselves.

But your perspective may vary.




Originally posted by BrianY:
Precisely. I still believe that there is something wrong with anyone who finds killing pleasurable. Necessary, sometimes, but not a source of entertainment or pleasure.



Both of you... your only take on hunters is that "they find klling pleasurable " .... Are you serious....? Killing is just the final sentence in the paragraph. Such ignorance leaves out so much!


Originally posted by Bogdog: I've hunted since I was a child. Can't say as I've ever felt anything spiritual. Maybe those who already have "religious feelings" might have that type of reaction. When I'm hunting I feel both elation and regret. Elation in the hunt, regret in the kill. One of my BILs gets sick every time he takes a deer. I have another friend who always pets and apologizes to his kills. I can imagine that those with limited outdoor pastimes may feel that hunting has provided some of their most memorable and dramatic experiences. I couldn't say the same thing for myself and I've hunted all over North America including on the job. My dogs always have a good time when they can go hunting though, the wetter, muddier, and colder it is the better maybe it's spiritual for them.

If I wanted to take the small minded route here, I could say your "elation" was cold blooded sociopathic behavior... but that would be false and not what I believe. The point is you are just one of those people who do not connect as much as others to the majesty of nature and sharing the life and death of your intended game.

If you spent the time bowhunting a buck that you had spent a couple months trying to pattern to perhaps get a chance at a shot... with many hours in the woods... then had 5 seconds to make the shot and were successful... you would understand that the elation and sadness goes hand in hand but also has a spiritual element. The awe and wonder of nature in such a life and death encounter. If you don't understand the following, then its no use trying to explain it to you.

Ted Nugent describing his feelings at the moment of killing a nine-point Texas white-tailed buck:



This is my magic time. I had not taken this majestic beast. He was given to me. I am merely a piece of the puzzle. There was no negative. No wars, No hate. No taxes. No pain. I am truly moved at these moments. I really don't understand them completely. I know I am participating in life. It's a gift. This is how we are made. This is truth. Sustenance. I am at once exhilarated and at peace. Movements seem slow motion.



RodB

RodB
10-01-2013, 05:12 PM
You ought to hear some of the hunters whine about predators where I live (Montana/Idaho). Especially wolves.

Speaking of predators, a big ol' mountain lion crossed the road in front of my truck a month or so ago. And just a few days ago my two burros and I had a stare-down with a cougar that was in my 'yard'. But that's another story and has nothing to do with elephants or gun lobbyists. Although, there was a gun involved ...

Just wanted to point out that there are indeed still predators in some parts of the USA, and some would say too many.
Good thing we have "wildlife management" these days. To manage the hunters.

JP... Are the wolves and mountain lions protected in your state?

When I backpacked into yellowstone years ago, I remember being told the local ranchers were complaining about the wolves and the grizzlies now and then.

RodB

bogdog
10-01-2013, 05:20 PM
If you spent the time bowhunting a buck that you had spent a couple months trying to pattern to perhaps get a chance at a shot... with many hours in the woods... then had 5 seconds to make the shot and were successful... you would understand that the elation and sadness goes hand in hand but also has a spiritual element. The awe and wonder of nature in such a life and death encounter. If you don't understand the following, then its no use trying to explain it to you.


RodBI'm afraid your ignorance is showing, but have it as you wish...

ljb5
10-01-2013, 05:36 PM
Ted Nugent describing his feelings at the moment of killing a nine-point Texas white-tailed buck:

And here's some additional Ted Nugent gibberish.
http://www.azlyrics.com/t/tednugent.html


(Wang dang sweet poontang)
(Wang dang sweet poontang)

That Nadine, what a teenage queen
She lookin' so clean, especi'lly down in between
What I like
She come to town, she be foolin' around
A-puttin' me down as a rock-and-roll clown
It's all right

(Wang dang sweet poontang)
(Wang dang sweet poontang)

Wang dang, what a sweet poontang
A-shakin' my thang as a rang-a-dang-dang in the bell
Ooh, baby
She's so sweet when she yanks on my meat
Down on the street you know she can't be beat
What the hell

(Wang dang sweet poontang)
(Wang dang sweet poontang)

All right, baby
You see what I got here in my hands
I got it right in my hands
Just for you, baby
I think I'm gonna yank on it one time
Look out!

Wang dang, what a sweet poontang
A-shakin' my thang as a rang-a-dang-dang in the bell

She's so sweet when she yanks on my meat
Down on the street you know she can't be beat
What the hell

Not exactly Lord Byron, is he?

The guy has a way with words, I guess. If that impresses you. :rolleyes:

RodB
10-01-2013, 05:37 PM
I'm afraid your ignorance is showing, but have it as you wish...


Ted Nugent:

This is my magic time. I had not taken this majestic beast. He was given to me. I am merely a piece of the puzzle. There was no negative. No wars, No hate. No taxes. No pain. I am truly moved at these moments. I really don't understand them completely. I know I am participating in life. It's a gift. This is how we are made. This is truth. Sustenance. I am at once exhilarated and at peace. Movements seem slow motion.

I thought Ted did a good job expressing how he felt about hunting.... you did't like it?

His words didn't connect with you?

Rodb

J P
10-01-2013, 08:22 PM
JP... Are the wolves and mountain lions protected in your state?

RodB

There are legal seasons for hunting both of them and they can be killed in self-defense and in situations of threat of stock depredation.

[ I should note that no animals were harmed in the incident I mentioned above involving the cougar and a firearm. I discharged a round as a hazing shot, big boom, intended to serve as 'aversive conditioning' for that cat. It was much too close to my house, my burros, and me, and appeared to show no signs of fear. Probably a youngster. No respect I tell ya! ]





When I backpacked into yellowstone years ago, I remember being told the local ranchers were complaining about the wolves and the grizzlies now and then.

RodB

Still are. Rancher's gotta have something to complain about. :)

Actually, I think things might be improving on the rancher-predator front. I read and hear more and more about some of them taking steps to live with predators. Things like moving the herds more often, keeping them closer together, employing more guard animals, more human presence.

BrianY
10-01-2013, 08:49 PM
Both of you... your only take on hunters is that "they find klling pleasurable " .... Are you serious....? Killing is just the final sentence in the paragraph. Such ignorance leaves out so much!


All of the stalking, the waiting, the being in tune with nature and the intended victim of the hunt, understanding the ways of the animals, etc. etc. can be done without killing the animal. Take a picture. Just get as close as you can and observe.

if killing doesn't give the sport hunter some sense of pleasure, then why kill? The only reason is that the act of killing must give the hunter some sort of positive feeling, some sort of reward. Otherwise he wouldn't do it.

BrianW
10-01-2013, 10:48 PM
if killing doesn't give the sport hunter some sense of pleasure, then why kill?

Ever try to pet a live wild lion?

Full Tilt
10-01-2013, 11:21 PM
Ever try to pet a live wild lion?

You pet dead things?

pila
10-02-2013, 03:46 AM
Another big hero with a rifle.
I just received an invite to join the NRA. I was nice, & just tore it up....

bogdog
10-02-2013, 07:08 AM
Another big hero with a rifle.
I just received an invite to join the NRA. I was nice, & just tore it up....If they send ya one of them fake membership cards they're good for caulking...

BrianY
10-02-2013, 09:07 AM
Ever try to pet a live wild lion?

Wow...there are so many possible responses....where to start?

- So, the justification for killing an animal is just so you can touch it?

- Is that what trophy hunters do...sit around stroking the stuffed bodies of their victims? That's pretty twisted...

BrianW
10-02-2013, 09:20 AM
- Is that what trophy hunters do...sit around stroking the stuffed bodies of their victims? That's pretty twisted...

http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb219/gigi4808/Reviews/l_730890e2732010b51608212a46275085.jpg

Or maybe this one?..

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/59944000/jpg/_59944322_br_cosmo624.jpg

Full Tilt
10-02-2013, 09:41 AM
Wow...there are so many possible responses....where to start?

- So, the justification for killing an animal is just so you can touch it?

- Is that what trophy hunters do...sit around stroking the stuffed bodies of their victims? That's pretty twisted...

I get the impression you've got me on ignore.

I thought I said the same thing three posts ago?

:confused:

ljb5
10-02-2013, 09:50 AM
I thought Ted did a good job expressing how he felt about hunting.... you did't like it?

His words didn't connect with you?

I read it.

I found it to be neither particularly poetic, nor particularly moving.

I think T.E. Lawrence eloquently about the homosexual arousal he felt while being whipped. Bret Easton Ellis wrote a few words about killing people. Mark Twight had some fine words to say about mountain climbing. Robin Knox-Johnston had better words about sailing. The Marquis de Sade wrote (I think) some lyrical words about sexually abusing young girls, as did Ted Nugent. Mick Jagger wrote about whipping slaves. Numerous people have written about their experiences doing drugs.

My point is simply that "elegant words" (or in this case, fairly mundane words) don't automatically make the endeavor noble. You can write just as eloquently about something awful as you can about something wonderful. I think only a very simple mind is won over by such expressions.

Are you familiar with 'Dulce et Decorum est'? It's also rather moving, but makes the opposite point: don't be misled by pretty words or flowery sentiment.