swabby intro with questions...... kind of long

[merlinron]

hello all, justa thought i'd introduce myself and of course, ask a few questions.
new to the forum, i've been lurking for the last few weeks while i did a cruise through all of the archived posts. lots of good reading. i've visited other sites,and registered in a few,but this place is easily, imho, is the best place to put down the anchor for a neo-builder like myself. i'm a carpenter of 30 yrs. experience, mostly commercial,but usually the finish end of the job where a guy gets to use some nice tools and work with real lumber. i have a fairly complete assortment of tools of good quality and have built just about anything a guy could think of over the years.i ma also a certified welder( part of being a usefull carpenter in the commercial aspects of my trade)
i have some experience in sailing although most of it was just being along for the sail, trimming jib, that sort of thing. a fair while back,25 or so years ago, i rebuilt a 1938 built star sloop and converted it to a daysailor, moving the cockpit coaming out and building in bench seats.i eliminated the mast bending system and coverted the bulb keel a "dropping bulb-keel/centerboard" type of thing that enabled the boat to sail in about 2 ft. water. it was quite a contraption that involved fabricating a steel tube centerboard case frame with angled ways for the bulb keel( after cutting off the mounting flange and hours of judicial grinding) to slide up and down in. a 1200 lb. trailer whinch was the painter. it all worked great after i found the right point to attatch the cable so the weight of the keel was balanced and didn't jam in the ways. the case was bolted to the keelson,the sides of the case were plywood, bolted to the tube frame, it actually never leaked and and although i had to cut a good sized slot in the keelson, the case rame stiffened it all up nicely.i sailed that for about 5 yrs, but my better half never was too excited about sailing so, it ended up sitting on the trailor and eventually went to the junk yard when i started raising a family. kids take alot of time, yaknow.
my wife's family had a cottage near neskoro and there, i had the pleasure and honor of meeting and getting to briefly know the late ferdi nimphius. everytime we went to the cottage i had to make run over to his yard to see what was going on... kid in a candy store! he was one of the most openly friendly people i ever meet and has been an inspiration to me from the day i met him, rest his soul.
well i have always had the urge to have another have another sailboat and with the kids now out of the nest,and my better half's mind changed as a result of one of her closer friends getting a sailboat( yes, i did tell her "see, i told you they were fun") the time has arrived, i am gathering materials and getting ready to start, hence some questions.
i have plans for a 16 ft. flush deck sloop pocket boat that suits my pallet, namely,"sztrandek".i found it on the net and the plans were free to download. there is an issue with it's lines that i would like opinions on.
the boat is designed as a coastal cruiser and has fairly high freeboard (35" at the bow,26-3/8" amidships and 26" at the stern.) to me it looks chunky, given it's LOA. of 16'-3". realizing that the higher freeboard cetainly gives a safe amount of stability margine in a blow in coastal waters, i know i will never sail it in anything but the numerous lakes inland around here and in relatively fair weather as well. my idea here is to lower the freeboard 4 inches. at that height it is still higher than similar sized boats( hartley 16, glen-l 17) the sides are almost vertical and taking 4 inches out of the side plank profile will result in a 3/8" increase in flair from chine to sheer and no changes at or below the water line what so ever. i am thinking that can only be good... yes or no? the sail plan is relatively small at 108 sq.ft. so i don't think that will be a concern.i know i will loose a bit of cabin head room, but i can live with that, as overnighting would only be a day or two at most, and the cabin will serve more as stowage for the tent and camping gear, than for actually sleeping in.
you can see the plans by serching under "sztradek". it is a polish site, but there is an english version for the plans.i would contact the designer, but i don't know how to or if you can, send a translted e-mail

[Bob Cleek]

Given the hundreds and hundreds of really great boats designed over the years for just the sort of sailing you are contemplating, I would urge you NOT to try redesigning or modifying a 16' "coastal cruiser" (probably an oxymoron!) with free Polish plans you found on the internet! For openers, take a look at the many, many plans books like those published by WoodenBoat, and for which detailed lines, offsets, and how-to-build texts are available for very reasonable prices. Other books, such as Chapelle and John Gardner's books (also available through the WoodenBoat online Store) are full of plans with lines, offsets and building instructions. Spend more time shopping around for a plan from a highly reputable designer, which has already been built and proven (and will have resale value). Pick the one you find best suits your needs and then build it with confidence that the finished product will be top drawer.

[mmd]

I agree with Mr. Cleek.

Also, please bear in mind that usually the quality and accuracy of a set of plans is reflected in their price.

[Bruce Hooke]

I very much agree with Bob. The cost of a good set of proven plans is tiny when compared to the cost of the materials (not to mention your labor) that will go into building a boat.

On top of what he said I would add the note that the single line that is most important to the look of a boat is the shear line, and lowering it 4" from one end to the other could well muck up the look of that line.

By the way, I did a google search on "sztradek" and got no hits...

[merlinron]

hi fellas, first, let me make a correction... the google came up empty because i mispelled the name...try "sztrandek". i have looked and have bought several study plans and you are absolutely right that there are hundreds of good plans of proven boats out there to build, keep in mind that even they started out as an unproven design at one time, as well.there are a few "strandeks" sailing around right now and one i know of being built with pictures on the net. i have no problem paying for a set of plans for a boat that appeals to me and suits my requirements, there in lies the problem.those that i have found in this size and looked at are pretty much all the same thing, this boat is different,flush decked cabin( i really like that), gaff rigged( you don't see that around here,ever, shorter spar easier to set up),twin bilge swinging boards,(nice open companionway)granted a little more work with two cases and boards, but not a "problem". i have to have trailerable, i don't want to get much longer than 16 ft., for ease in handling and trailering, i don't need more boat for the small waters i'll be on,easy to build, double chined plank on frame, and the frames in the cabin area come out after the build....sort of after the fact stitch and glue... no beveling panels at chine and stringers, the panel edge intersections are googe filled and taped. it just so happens that the plans are on the net for free, if they weren't free, i would buy them anyways. there are a full set of cad generated offsets and 23 pages of detail prints, sail plan, etc., etc., as well as a material list and the designers e-mail address as i said, if i could send a translated e-mail i would pick his brain a bit. i have looked at and built from prints my entire life, (usually print sets so big you can barely lift them and so complicated it sometimes takes hours of looking through details and addendums to find one little measurement)and i thought from i've heard about "free prints" they were fairly good (i've heard complaints about some well known designers' prints being vague as well). nothing really complicated about a 16 ft boat, if you know what i mean. the only thing that i noticed was lacking is details for running rigging,(routing and such). understandably, as everyone has a different idea of how they want to route things and what size blocks and sheaves they want. i have redrawn the boat in 1/25th scale with the lower freeboard and it looks much better and much more proportional to it's length.i have also lofted the offsets and they are right on the money to the millimeter, which i also have no problem working with, or jumping back and forth between metric and foot/inches within the same print,i have to that all the time on the job.
i know i am new here guys, and i do respect your comments, i also believe there was an un- substantiated dismissal of this boat because it was from an unknown foriegn source and free, give it a chance. i'm not a neophyte when it comes to seeing what is drawn or figuring out how to build something from a plan, be it a house, a 150 million dollar hospital, or a small polish boat plan, lines are lines and measurements, be they millimeters or inches are the same, that in it's essence, is my occupation.
sorry so long, but i had to say what i had to say. i don't intend to offend anyone or be a smart a$$ here, and i certainly don't want to start off on the wrong foot, but if you are going to dismiss someone's enthusiasm, have a look at what your dismissing....thank you.

[Bruce Hooke]

Well now, if you'd added those details at the start you might have gotten a slightly different response! :D

For others who want to look at the plans, here is a link to the web page (http://www.zeglarstwo.3miasto.pl/sztraeng/sztrengl.html).

The fact that boats have been built to this design is a VERY good sign. That means that at the least the boat is buildable.

This designer has certainly provided a LOT of details, which is also good. The lack of rigging detail is a common problem that has been bemoaned here on the forum before. When you get to that stage folks around here can certainly provide useful input.

I'm not sure what to say about lowering the freeboard...here is why:

1. On inland lakes you can still get freak gusts, squalls and suchlike that can knock down a boat that does not have sufficient stability.

2. If it were me I would want to run some stability calculations, but that can get complicated.

3. I would try to mock up the cabin space that will result if you lower the shear. I realize that you are willing to put up with a cramped cabin, but you will have that even if you don't lower the shear, and I would want to be sure that lowering the shear would not create a cabin space that would be nearly impossible to use. For finding that out there are few things better than an afternoon spent "building" the cabin space in cardboard and trying it out.

I would also consider building at least the hull and cabin as a scale model using model-builders plywood available from a decent hobby shop. That will help you get a feel for how things look after your planned alteration, and it will let you know if there are hidden problems created by that alteration.

I am somewhat bothered by the idea that someone would even think of trying to put 4 berths in a boat this size. Hell, I'm not even sure there is room in the cockpit for 4 people. I lived on a 23' boat for 9 months so I know just how small a 16' boat is. I know you are probably not planning to build this version, I just worry about the judgement of a designer who would draw such a plan.

If you have questions it might be worth at least dropping a quick email to the desginer to see if by chance he speaks English. I would not be surprised if he did, althought if the English on the website is anything to go by, detailed discussions may be a bit difficult.

[merlinron]

hi bruce, i appreciate your attempting to have a look at the prints. i thought it was a fairly decent design and as you state knowing some have been built eases the worries about the realistic side of the fun. that said i am fully aware it might not be truely a " good" performer, but there are plenty of boats out there that have been changed after a shake down, even with all the mathamatical assurances.you don't know for sure untill, as they say,"you hear the fat lady singin'".i've done all the math i know( finess, sa/d,moment to trim, capsize ratio) to do on it and it falls pretty much in line with what is acceptable. i haven't done a righting arm calculation on it as yet, though. i don't know if it is that i am doing something wrong in the equations or the info for the equation is wrng or i am interpreting it incorrectly, but every time i try one i get different answers or answers that don't mean anything relative to what i should have.....i assume it is on my end of the deal, i was never real good with algebra in high school and i certainly haven't kept up on it since, beyond the few simple equations i use just about everyday at work.i have a friend comming over sunday for a visit, he's a quality control engineer, he doesn't know it yet, but he's gonna have earn his brats and beer!
one thing to consider about the freeboard is that where this plan originates is in what the coast guard describes as one of the (high coastal gale areas) and there fore boats in that region fall under special stability rules of some sort, one of which is some sort of "more freeboard/ length ratio"( not sure exactly what it's called). the plan is appearently liscenced, the designer is an N.A. or N.E., he states that the plan is free for anyne to build for them selves, but if someone would build one for sail, they should e-mail him and he will forward his liscence info. i am relatively sure that lowering the freeboard and the resultant drop in cg., along with the increase in boyancy from the increase in flair, will stiffen the boat up a bit without any complications.in the plans there is also an optional 5 m.sq. increase in sail plan, so it's evident the boat will handle more canvass with the higher freeboard. i'm more looking for a real easy going, dry sailing boat now a days....i got plenty of "wet excorsize" with that star i had! i plan to make all my blocks out of maple, to go along with the gaff rig and have all the doug fir i need for the spars already. i also saved all the merriman hardware off the old star,which includes two beutifull bronze whinches. the schedule goes like build all the frames, spars, blocks,keel boxes and keels, rudder,sliding hatch and doors,over the winter months in my shop and start on the hull outside in the spring. if i try to build the hull in my shop,i think sparks my fly, the the "boss's" car will have sit out side....not good! :rolleyes:

[Roger Cumming]

You have mentioned several times that the plans for this boat are free. Is this the reason you find them so appealing? You should be aware that there are many sources of boat plans which can be gotten for little or no money. Probably the best source is in books. You might even find a boat that was designed for the waters you intend to sail.

Concerning the altering of plans, this is discussed frequently on this forum and there are lots of opinions. Considering the skill required to design a small boat that will sail well, carry some load, and do it all safely, you should think twice about making major changes to the design. Better to find a design whose dimensions suit your needs.

[merlinron]

hi roger, again thanks for the reply and comments. the fact that the plans were free means very little on my part, had i found the boat in a catalog, book or desingers web page, i would have at least bought a study set because the boat looked potentially like it was something i wanted to build. once again, i have searched quite extensively for a trailer sailor of this size(+/- 16 ft.) and quite honestly, unless you settle for a basic sharpy derivation with a cabin plopped on the foredeck, or the same hull with an open cockpit, there isn't much offered, reguardless of price or notariety of the designer. a legitamate rebuttal to this statement would certainly be," well, that's because they work". yes, they certainly do, but that doesn't mean something else won't. i challenge you to find something in this size boat that falls outside the parameters. the closest thing i came up with is from j. merttens, he has a line of small flush deck stitch and glue cat rigs, decent, but inho. compared to "strandek" they are too boxy for my liking.other that that there are some rediculous looking flat bottoms with off set masts and lee boards, or someones interpretation of 16 foot long schooners or yawls.i am beggining to think that if i would have lead you to believe i paid 2-300 bucks for the print,it would have been a good boat without a doubt.
as for the modification, i don't consider it major. if you look at the prints it's a fairly straight forward change of one set of dimension from stem to stern, it does not disturb or re-dimension any part of the under water form, or the sheer line,beam,LWL,LOA,D/L,SA/D,WLA,CofF, or any other design parameter. what it does do is lower the cg,and increase heeled boyancy and PPI a bit, both increasing righting moment.i understand your position as you are an architect and know well of the work that goes into a design,but i am sure your feild guys have come back from a job and said" the owners, want to change the hieght of (this or that)" at some time. if it doesn't cause structural problems it's not a major problem.

[Bruce Hooke]

I am curious about why you have selected 16' as the desirable length. The reason I am bringing this up is that in many ways weight is a better measure of sailboat size than length. If you have selected 16' because of size limitations on either your building space or the place where you plan to store the boat, then I can certainly understand. If you selected that length just to avoid getting into a bigger project or owning a bigger boat than you want then I would encourage you to broaden your horizons and consider boats that weight the same amount as Sztrandek but are longer than 16'. The reason I am suggesting this is just to potentially provide you with some additional designs from which to choose if you are so inclined. Also, a longer boat is in general likely to sail better than a shorter boat...

[Bob Cleek]

You know, I almost didn't bother to post anything more because it really seems your mind is made up here. You've gotten a number of replies urging you to check other designs that may be more suitable and you have rebutted all of them. Building a boat is a personal choice. If you want to build it, go for it.

I HAVE now reviewed the lines. I will give you two very good reasons not to bother building this boat. The double centerboards. (Or lee boards, I suppose.) Building a centerboard case that will not leak is perhaps the greatest challenge of all in boatbuilding. In this case, it is apparent that the designer used two, sort ofo a bilge keel arrangement, in order to obtain space on the centerline. Too much trouble.

[merlinron]

good question bruce. basicaly, i think i just plain don't need more boat.i want easy to launch/load and rig up and i'll give up a little performance to wind to have it. i have looked at more boat, the vagabond 18 by mertens is one that i have considered strongly(another flush deck design, i like those) ,again though, it does get heavier and more expensive to build. although stitch and glue is quicker, it's not necessarily less expensive than plank on frame( lots of epoxy) and although there are those who insist one's time is worth something, ultimately, i'm not paying myself to build the boat and it's worth is only material if and when you sell it. i did think about it long and hard though, and i haven't cut part one yet for "sztrandek". i will say that 18 ft would be my absolute limit, i just don't want to trailer a bigger boat. with that said, there's very little advantage to the extra two feet beyond a couple miles per hour and a few degrees higher point, which doesn't realy mean beans to me, i'm not racing. sztrandek has plenty of cockpit space for me and the wife for our sailing. as mentioned before (which,incidently, i forget to address from your last post, but i will, later)the cabin head room loss is no problem,it will be used mostly for stowage of camping gear for maybe a couple short overnighters per year, but i will be mostly just day sailing the local lakes around wisconsin. i could do just as well with an open boat and maybe a boom tent, but i like boats with a roof, a flush deck roof, that is. building space is no consideration, my shop is 24 x 30 with half(15x 24) of it heated...some what...(wood stove).
as to weight being a better assesment to size, it is ,but sztrandek is fairly light as it is and i would be wary of a boat design much longer with the same weight.i would assume it would have to give up canvas.... as for instance... sztrandek is fairly beamy for it's length and gains some stiffness despite it's ballst light weight from it's beamyness.
as to head room... there still remains 33.5" head room at the stringer in the cabin after my intended modification. not exactly great sitting room, but easily useable for my purpose and 3-7/8" deck camber gives better than 3 ft at the companionway. i have done a mock up during my considerations and find that i can sit under that height, although, i admit, somewhat tight.
all in all, i'm not going after a boat that i'll be spending weeks on, or race other boats with, i just want to blow around the lake nice and easy and dry and i like the overall looks of the boat. realistically, what elso do you base acceptance on?

[merlinron]

bob, why is that too much trouble? building two is just as easy as building one, it only takes a few more cuts. leak proofing is no problem at all, i can't see why anyone would even put a pivot in the side of a case. the board will hang in a u-shaped pivot bracket that puts the pivot in it's correct position,all inside the case. the bracket is fixed( through-bolted) to the top of the case. there will be no pivot holes in my case sides what so ever and gasketed with a plate backer where the bracket bolts come through the case top. the hangers are just like what is used on a macgregor 26. the cases are all epoxy/cloth shiethed, very well supported (by the prints) and all i have to do to drop boards out is un- screw two nuts on the top of the case. to ship the boards, you slip the bracket over the board,push the pivot pin through and slid the whole works up into the case,with the bolts guided by some thin wire that is sent down through the holes in the top of the case from inside the boat. what's the next problem, bob?

[Paul Pless]

what's the next problem, bob? oh my :D

[Philip Maynard]

I am not commenting one way or another about this particular design but a few points. The last time I looked, wooden boat does not sell anything like this design, they tend to be much more traditional. Some members of this forum get uneasy with something as modern as plywood. I think it's a stretch to get a favorable opinion of a free, very modern polish design from this forum. For example I do not recall anybody objecting to double centerboards if they are drawn by one of the "approved" designers like John Welsford. And he has mentioned several times that he has not selected this design because it's free but because it was closer to what he was looking for than anything else he has yet seen but nobody seems to be able to hear that.

[Wes Kisting]

The plans are fairly clear and accessible VISUALLY, but I'm assuming there is not step-by-step written English walkthrough? That would be one strike against going with this plan--no guaranteed support mechanism during the building process (then again, I noticed you said there is a website somewhere with pictures of someone actually building one, right? So maybe you could keep in touch with that builder for help as you build?).

If you're just looking for something to blow around the lake, and you LIKE the 16-footer, go ahead and build it.

Having said that... I, too, really like the VG18 and would give that serious consideration again, even though you seem to have decided the Stzndkdjsh... (however you spell it) is a better fit for you. In my opinion, it's always best to build a boat with some growing room, so even if the 16 footer is right for your expected usage, it's fairly typical (with me, at least) to wish you had "a little more space" and "a little more waterline length" and "a little longer deck", etc. as you come up against some of the shorter boat shortcomings. The extra 2 feet can make a suprising difference in the in-cabin comfort... it's a fairly well known design... there's no question it will perform adequately (or better than adequately) for an 18' sailboat... it's still plenty trailerable... etc.

Again, not pressuring you to avoid the 16' Standsjsah (can't remember the name for some reason... sorry). But if you like the VG18 also (as you said above), I think it's the much safer bet.

In the end, build what you want to build... that's the real joy of building. A lot of people lose sight of that when they start getting obsessed with design parameters that only make a fraction-of-a-knot difference in practice (excepting, of course, those rare design catastrophes which become urban legendes and haunt the forums from time to time).

Best of luck.

[merlinron]

thank you philip. i never thought about material/design origin/ price discrimination. :eek: that's pretty funny........

[merlinron]

wes, the vagabond 18 has not been sailed yet, just last week i talked to the first person to purchase a set of vg18 prints from jackes, and at that time he hadn't even recieved them yet. as i've said before... you don't really know if it will sail till you hear the fat lady singin' i don't really need a step by step walk through, i work from blue prints every day of my life.
i've had enough for today,....out

[Wes Kisting]

Are you sure about the VG18? Maybe I'm confusing it with a different design, but I just read a post/review on a forum somewhere (not sure if it was here, or one of the other half dozen forums I frequent... in a recent post or, more likely, in the archives) that had a rave review of an 18-footer (thought it was the VG18). The post also suggested that many had been built. Hmmm... maybe it was a different design and I've confused them... I'll post back if I can find the review I'm talking about.

I've been shopping around for a new design myself (finally settled on the B&B Princess 22 Sharpie), so I've looked at so many different designs and reviews in the last two months that I've got a thousand of them swirling together in my head. If you're right about the VG18 not having been built, then I guess it's a toss-up and, again, I'd build whatever your heart tells you is "the one" to build... we all have a different idea of "the perfect boat" and it's never quite what we end up with anyway. smile.gif

[Paul Girouard]

Originally posted by Wes Kisting:

In the end, build what you want to build... that's the real joy of building.

Best of luck.[/QB]Ah the essence of building smile.gif Thanks Wes smile.gif That is a hazy part of WBF, it should be fun, not our way or no way redface.gif

Go for it merlin smile.gif

Of course I'll pay for the opinion, Oh well :rolleyes: I spent my day building something :cool:

[merlinron]

hi wes, there's been allot of buzz about the vg18 looking like a great boat,initially from a view of the studies on jackes's site, but none built yet. i have no doubt, though, that it will be good boat. there is series of vagabonds...14, 16, 18, 20, and a plus,which is a 20 with a 10% stretcth. all but the 18 have been built and all sail good according to thier owners, so maybe it was one of them. the 14 and 16 are identicle in every aspect except length,both unstayed cat rigs, full batten sail. all are good designs, but noy quite what i like to see in a flush deck boat... a little too straight sided verticaly, with no break at the sheer, as is the vg 18. ultra modern in aopearance, typicaly, the result of easy ply construction by stitch and glue, i would like something just a little more "classic" looking, but still ply built. sztrandek, has a stringer(and thereforea real sheerline) and a bit of "tumblehome"(or is it "tumbledown"?) to the cabin sides, along with the narrow transom, it (to me)has that "classic" look.
the princess is a nice looking boat as well. a very similar but a bit shorter boat by selway fischer, the ptarmigan 17, caught my eye also. i have seen a pictorial of this boat in which the builder reduced the cabin top camber and it really made an improvement in it's classic lines. if i were to want a sharpie type it would be the one i'd build. s. fischer has some graet looking boats to his credit.

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Wes Kisting:
The plans are fairly clear and accessible VISUALLY, but I'm assuming there is not step-by-step written English walkthrough? That would be one strike against going with this plan--no guaranteed support mechanism during the building process (then again, I noticed you said there is a website somewhere with pictures of someone actually building one, right? So maybe you could keep in touch with that builder for help as you build?).While instructions are great and other builders or the designer being available to ask questions of is nice, I rather doubt that someone who has 30 years of trim carpentry and welding experience behind them will run into anything that can't figure out, especially with the resources of the forum to draw on for "back-up" on boat-related issues that would be unfamilar to a "land-based" carpenter. My first boat* was a dory from John Gardiner's dory book, which does have some general instructions, but not that much about plywood, and the plans covered less than 2 pages, and I managed to figure it out as a teenager. Yes I made some bad decisions that added a lot of time to the building process, but nothing fatal to the project. *However, I should note that I ran out of time to finish that boat because I had to head off to college, and I have not had a workshop big enough since then so it still sits, about 75% done, in my parents' basement...one of these years I hope I will finally have time and a place to finish it.

[Bob Cleek]

Like I said...

You know, I almost didn't bother to post anything more because it really seems your mind is made up here. You've gotten a number of replies urging you to check other designs that may be more suitable and you have rebutted all of them. Building a boat is a personal choice. If you want to build it, go for it.\

When you ask people their opinion and then get pissy about it when they answer, you are wasting people's time. Spend your time building the boat you want the way you want to build it.

[Wes Kisting]

You're right, Bruce. I was just trying to help merlinron weigh pros and cons... though as it turns out, I was wrong about the VG18, which I thought had been built, but I guess I was confusing it with one of the larger versions (??).

Even with the ultra-experienced, however, sometimes the designer throws you a curve you don't foresee until some obstructing piece is already glassed into your workspace and then you end up laying on your back with your legs twisted like a pretzel, trying to squeeze your upper torso through a hatch opening which was never meant to pass anything larger than a battery, trying to scrape, cut, and sand inside a space with no elbow room.... or maybe it's only me who ends up making those kind of mistakes. For the P22, I decided to build a model first to make sure no "sequence of construction" mishaps arise. smile.gif

tongue.gif

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Wes Kisting:
Even with the ultra-experienced, however, sometimes the designer throws you a curve you don't foresee until some obstructing piece is already glassed into your workspace and then you end up laying on your back with your legs twisted like a pretzel, trying to squeeze your upper torso through a hatch opening which was never meant to pass anything larger than a battery, trying to scrape, cut, and sand inside a space with no elbow room.... or maybe it's only me who ends up making those kind of mistakes....No, it's not just you...I'm sure we've all been "there" at one time or another! :D