PDA

View Full Version : Anti bio fuel... Why?



Reynard38
08-01-2013, 07:43 PM
Oh wait, he's from a petroleum producing state.

http://trumanproject.org/in-the-news/opis-biofuels-update-house-approves-two-biofuel-limiting-amendments/

Forget national security. I've got my campaign supporters to consider.

AnalogKid
08-01-2013, 07:52 PM
The second amendment shouldn't have too much effect. The senator has obviously swallowed the anti-propaganda and believes that petrol and diesel come out of the ground right under the gas-station forecourt pre-refined. In fact it takes far more energy to refine crude into usable fuels than is provided by burning those fuel products.

However, the real problem with biofuels is the land taken to grow them. If they become more profitable than food crops then you end up with a shortage of food, or if you run out of land then just clear-fell some native/virgin forest - not really such a green alternative afterall, byproduct biofuels notwithstanding.

LeeG
08-01-2013, 07:58 PM
It sounds like a dumb bill but his point is valid, biofuels are a waste of money for the DOD but there are things 100x more wasteful like the Bush(Cheney)-Wolfowitz Doctrine.

Breakaway
08-01-2013, 08:15 PM
The linked text doesn't state the definition of "petroleum based fuel." Could be 20-percent petrol and 80-percent bio, or....????
Seems like a bill that leaves lots of leeway.

Kevin

LeeG
08-03-2013, 08:39 AM
The linked text doesn't state the definition of "petroleum based fuel." Could be 20-percent petrol and 80-percent bio, or....????
Seems like a bill that leaves lots of leeway.

Kevin

There was a program recently to produce diesel and jet fuel fuel from a a variety of sources. Biomass, gas to liquid, algae, etc. the cost of the fuels varied from $4/gal to $1000/gal. Kinda drove home the fact that alternatives to oil are viable when cost isn't a factor and the lowest cost "alternative" liquid fuels are made from fossil fuels.

George Jung
08-03-2013, 08:50 AM
A few years back I read about the ethanol from grasses info - much better return on the dollar; could be produced on grounds ill-suited for food production. Don't hear anything about that anymore.

Graeme Forrest
08-03-2013, 05:47 PM
Producing biofuel from scratch (ie. growing crops specificly for biofuel production)is generally a waste of money. and the land involved is far better used producing food crops. However producing biofuel from the waste product of another process I think is fair enough. For example, biodiesel from used "deep frying" oil, I understand in Brazil they produce ethanol from the waste of crushed sugar cane, here in NZ we produce ethanol from whey which is a waste product of cheese production. I do think however it would be difficult to meet anything like the total fuel requirements using such methods and I think the future of biofuels is rather limited unless some major breakthrough is made.

Jim Bow
08-03-2013, 05:52 PM
$1000 a gallon in the lab does not mean $1000 after the refineries and infrastructure are established.
How much a gallon would 87 octane gasoline cost if you had to make it in a research lab, one gallon at a time?

Garret
08-03-2013, 05:54 PM
One of the good things the DOD can do is to fund some research while providing for the national defense.

Of course short-sighted people never look past the next 6 months. Oh wait - that's now the American way - gotta make the stockholders happy now & worry about next year next year.

Also - yes, making alternative fuels from food crops is not smart (though the midwest loves it:)). However, there is a lot of land lying fallow that could be used for switchgrass, hemp, etc. to make biofuels.

Chip-skiff
08-03-2013, 05:57 PM
The senator is demonstrating his fervent loyalty to the oil and gas interests, so they'll contribute more to his golden hoard. The Wyoming delegation does this all the time.

LeeG
08-03-2013, 07:12 PM
$1000 a gallon in the lab does not mean $1000 after the refineries and infrastructure are established.
How much a gallon would 87 octane gasoline cost if you had to make it in a research lab, one gallon at a time?

Just because something is feasible in a lab doesn't mean it is economical on a larger scale.

LeeG
08-03-2013, 07:20 PM
http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/2013/02/19/u-s-air-force-report-to-congress-bashes-navys-biofuels-program/


The program has had its critics. A 2011 congressionally-mandated study by the Rand Corporation suggested that renewable isn’t necessarily better for the military. The study concluded “There is no direct benefit to the Department of Defense or the services from using alternative fuels rather than petroleum-derived fuels.” Secretary of the Navy, Ray Mabus, stated that he disagreed “vehemently” with the report. One of the reasons for this conclusion is that the military is near the front of the line if fuel scarcity became a problem, and thus they do not need to push biofuels.


http://www.energytrendsinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Department-of-Defense-Fuel-Purchases.png?00cfb7

Duncan Gibbs
08-03-2013, 07:25 PM
Biofuelled bio-engine:

http://www.buggy.com/Images/websluggy.jpg

Hell! May even reduce health problems, stress levels and the like. Seatbelts? Who need's 'em?

Free fertiliser for the home vege' patches as well! Just grab your shovel and head out the front of your house!

I'm not actually saying we revert to horse and buggy, but that we have to think way outside the box and also think about making serious switches to alternative energy sources and levels of energy consumption and treat overcoming economies of scale seriously. The initial capital costs are the big thing to overcome, but after that the alternatives become cheaper and self-sustaining: Hydrogen/electric vehicles powered by base-load solar thermal and tidal/wave powered electricity generation plants, locally and seasonally grown food, zero waste & recycling systems, so on and so forth... Lots of viable alternatives that will work if you choose them as serious options. If we insist upon being sticks in the mud then we have little real hope.

LeeG
08-03-2013, 07:42 PM
I'm not actually saying we revert to horse and buggy, but that we have to think way outside the box and also think about making serious switches to alternative energy sources and levels of energy consumption and treat overcoming economies of scale seriously. The initial capital costs are the big thing to overcome, but after that the alternatives become cheaper and self-sustaining: Hydrogen/electric vehicles powered by base-load solar thermal and tidal/wave powered electricity generation plants, locally and seasonally grown food, zero waste & recycling systems, so on and so forth... Lots of viable alternatives that will work if you choose them as serious options. If we insist upon being sticks in the mud then we have little real hope.

There really isn't an "alternative" when it comes to an infrastructure/economy built on a growing liquid fuel supply. The supply of versatile liquid fossil fuel will be in decline in our lifetime with no other alternative than doing with less and paying more for it. As if the last ten years aren't clue enough.

Duncan Gibbs
08-03-2013, 08:11 PM
Hang on a second Lee! We've had the worst economic collapse since the Great Depression, our oceans are being subject to rapid acidification, we have the fastest and greatest rate of mass extinction ever, there's the threat - real or perceived depending on which newspaper, TV news or blogs you consume - of AGW, the prices of all fossil fuels are rising at the same time known reserves are being inexorably diminished, obesity and all the other health issues that accompany it is a globally increasing phenomenon, there is the threat of superbugs and an increased fracturing of all sorts of previous political and social structures from those that are developed to those that have only been introduced to modernity.

Something - lots of things - HAVE to change. Our global behaviours are the focal point of all of these changes.

wardd
08-03-2013, 08:19 PM
Biofuelled bio-engine:

http://www.buggy.com/Images/websluggy.jpg

Hell! May even reduce health problems, stress levels and the like. Seatbelts? Who need's 'em?

Free fertiliser for the home vege' patches as well! Just grab your shovel and head out the front of your house!

I'm not actually saying we revert to horse and buggy, but that we have to think way outside the box and also think about making serious switches to alternative energy sources and levels of energy consumption and treat overcoming economies of scale seriously. The initial capital costs are the big thing to overcome, but after that the alternatives become cheaper and self-sustaining: Hydrogen/electric vehicles powered by base-load solar thermal and tidal/wave powered electricity generation plants, locally and seasonally grown food, zero waste & recycling systems, so on and so forth... Lots of viable alternatives that will work if you choose them as serious options. If we insist upon being sticks in the mud then we have little real hope.

the internal combustion engine was once seen as a solution to horse polution

LeeG
08-03-2013, 08:19 PM
Duncan, of course there will be change. All I'm saying is that there isn't an alternative to crude oil. When it becomes more expensive we pay more. At some point we use less. But we will not find an alternative that changes that reality.

Duncan Gibbs
08-03-2013, 08:57 PM
That reality will become scarcer and scarcer and force the issue. At the same time the technological lag will close the gap, investment in alternative energy technologies will increase and the economies of scale will become much more competitive.

There are plenty of alternatives to crude including not using it, or any other energy and being truly conservative.

CWSmith
08-03-2013, 09:47 PM
You're saying that the Republican Congress is against biofuel and you don't know why? Really? How about "big business owns their asses and they serve only money"? I burn B20 in the house - the furnace is clean and requires less servicing. It will likely last longer. I actually pay a little more for it, but I think it's worth it. In time it will be cheaper.

wardd
08-03-2013, 10:03 PM
parity may be reached when oil is more expensive

LeeG
08-04-2013, 06:32 AM
parity may be reached when oil is more expensive

Why?
If oil spikes up too fast for the infrastructure to adjust the economy goes south and the alternative is academic. I'm all for research but I haven't read about any magic pots of black gold that can change the fundamental problem that our rate of oil consumption was unsustainable once world production slowed down. Unfortunately 100's billions is being spent squeezing tight oil out of the ground to burn in last centuries infrastructure instead of changing the infrastructure to burn next decades oil.