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John Smith
07-31-2013, 10:03 AM
In those states where they embrace it and implement as designed, results look pretty good

http://thegavel.democraticleader.house.gov/?p=5845

You can find links to states where it's not working, but those are states that have opposed it and are not helping implement it. You can find people writing that the lower rates are some kind of hoax, but those are all the same people who've told us many things, and have been wrong every time.

At what point is there sufficient evidence to show that the ACA is a significant improvement over what we had?

At what point do the righties come to accept they've been lied to and they've been believing those lies and support the proper implantation of the ACA in their states?

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/428163/july-29-2013/obamacare-cards

wardd
07-31-2013, 10:13 AM
it's working only if you're not a republican or jamie

John Smith
07-31-2013, 10:30 AM
It appears that anywhere it is given a FAIR change to work it works reasonably well.

How long will those who want it to fail refuse to give it that fair chance at the cost of so many citizens of their states?

How many states where it is not given a fair chance will have the people blame Obama?

Will the internet be a major tool, or a sufficient tool, to let the people in those states know how well it works in other states?

I guess I'm asking if the truth will win.

hanleyclifford
07-31-2013, 10:32 AM
It's going to create a lot of part time jobs.:)

hanleyclifford
07-31-2013, 11:09 AM
...already has. Welcome to part time America. Will this be a bad thing? Full time employment thus receives a super bonus creating an incentive for quality and a two tier labor force and...oops, where was I?;)

ccmanuals
07-31-2013, 11:11 AM
...already has. Welcome to part time America.

Is that the fault of individuals or the health care law or the fault of business?

hanleyclifford
07-31-2013, 11:18 AM
Is that the fault of individuals or the health care law or the fault of business? Uh, oh...
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-sTW-LXI6V-c/TvBbg4avYNI/AAAAAAAACvQ/T3rIdNH3y6g/s320/can-of-worms.jpg

Mrleft8
07-31-2013, 11:29 AM
...already has. Welcome to part time America.

How many hours are you working behind the bench these days, Judge?.....

Arizona Bay
07-31-2013, 11:38 AM
It's been part time hamerica for a long time, aca isn't causing it.

But w:pho would want to do the same thing 40hrs a week anyway?

hanleyclifford
07-31-2013, 11:42 AM
It's been part time hamerica for a long time, aca isn't causing it.

But w:pho would want to do the same thing 40hrs a week anyway? Good thinking! How about 20 hrs at Burger King and 20 at McDonald's"? Just to mix it up.

ccmanuals
07-31-2013, 11:45 AM
I thought this practice of part time workers to avoid withholding taxes and benefits had been going on for years especially in the hospitality and food industry.

Captain Intrepid
07-31-2013, 11:48 AM
Also, places where you automatically become a permanent member of staff after working so long there, it's common practice to fire someone for the weekend and rehire them the next week.

hanleyclifford
07-31-2013, 11:48 AM
I thought this practice of part time workers to avoid withholding taxes and benefits had been going on for years especially in the hospitality and food industry. Correct, but ACA is going to institutionalize the practice.

hanleyclifford
07-31-2013, 11:52 AM
Also, places where you automatically become a permanent member of staff after working so long there, it's common practice to fire someone for the weekend and rehire them the next week. And don't forget the practice of firing managers after 19 1/2 years to avoid payng the full pension. I've seen it. Dirty practices abound in business, and ACA is going to accelerate the trend.

Captain Intrepid
07-31-2013, 12:01 PM
I don't see that being the fault of the law, just of slimy underhanded businessmen and women. Another reason why "right to work" laws as really "right to be screwed over by your work" laws.

Ted Hoppe
07-31-2013, 12:04 PM
Part time jobs means part time responsibility. those job are not generally the ones that grow the economy. those who chose those industries which employ them do so at thier peril. True liberaterian ideals in corporate America.

Here on the left liberal coast...where many of the new self created, highly paid employment positions in companies like google, Facebook and Apple...16 hours a day is the norm. Healthcare for those companies are important as each employee is the company process and seen wise to protect thier well being, they do feed them, exercise them healthy, clean them but do not encourage them to go home or be with real family. Thier work unit is family to many of them...ones are not hired but adopted into a recommended group where you contribute nearly all your waking hours to deliver for your business unit. a sick employee means less real profitability so health plans are nessascary.:(

Arizona Bay
07-31-2013, 12:05 PM
And don't forget the practice of firing managers after 19 1/2 years to avoid payng the full pension. I've seen it. Dirty practices abound in business, and ACA is going to accelerate the trend.

That's where it needs tweaking. Preferably into single payer... maybe by way of medicare for all.

hanleyclifford
07-31-2013, 12:08 PM
Part time jobs means part time responsibility. those job are not generally the ones that grow the economy. those who chose those industries which employ them do so at thier peril.

Here on the left liberal coast...where many of the new self created, highly paid employment positions in companies like google, Facebook and Apple...16 hours a day is the norm. Healthcare for those companies are important as each employee is the company process and seen wise to protect thier well being even if they don't have a chance to go home or be with family. work is family to many...you are not hired but adopted into your group where you contribute nearly all your waking hours to deliver for your business unit. Regrettably most jobs do not fall under that category. The workers who are expendable and replaceable are the ones who need help and ACA is going to be counterproductive.

Keith Wilson
07-31-2013, 12:17 PM
...already has. Welcome to part time America.This is, to be blunt, a lie. Not a lie by The Judge, who is no doubt repeating it in good faith, but a piece of propaganda based on anecdotes which is, shall we say, at variance with reality.

Here are real numbers. This doesn't, of course, reflect what may happen in the future, but "it's already happened" is simply false.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2013/07/wh-restaurant-chart.png

(source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/07/30/white-house-obamacare-not-a-job-killer-we-have-a-graph-to-prove-it/))

hanleyclifford
07-31-2013, 12:25 PM
Probably an anomoly but here on the Vineyard we do see a high number of average hours for restaurant workers because they are so scarce. But since they are seasonal they do not get the goodies of ACA. In the past the wisdom has been to keep number of employees low and work 'em to death. ACA may change that approach.

Ted Hoppe
07-31-2013, 12:35 PM
Regrettably most jobs do not fall under that category. The workers who are expendable and replaceable are the ones who need help and ACA is going to be counterproductive.

I agree many jobs are seen as expendable. A crappy employer is a recognizable entity in our society. Really one should work for only nimble and forward thinking organizations (many service companies are able to recognize this too). there is a big difference between a job and a position. there is another trend that is also emerging as a result of Facebook and LinkedIn... A modern workforce member anchors themselves within a on-line social group where work and meaningful friendships are intertwined. friends don't let friends work in crappy conditions - it does not fit within collaborative models we set up in modern schools and business units. then again jerks who perform poorly, act improperly or are detrimental to the unit are discarded immediately. As a side note - many socially immature or even older folks in the workforce do not understand this new model and lack the skills to get in with the new processes of work - thus get boned in getting meaningful employement and end up with a sh!tty part time job.

hanleyclifford
07-31-2013, 12:45 PM
I agree many jobs are seen as expendable. A crappy employer is a recognizable entity in our society. Really one should work for only nimble and forward thinking organizations (many service companies are able to recognize this too). there is a big difference between a job and a position. there is another trend that is also emerging as a result of Facebook and LinkedIn... A modern workforce member anchors themselves within a on-line social group where work and meaningful friendships are intertwined. friends don't let friends work in crappy conditions - it does not fit within collaborative models we set up in modern schools and business units. then again jerks who perform poorly, act improperly or are detrimental to the unit are discarded immediately. As a side note - many socially immature or even older folks in the workforce do not understand this new model and lack the skills to get in with the new processes of work - thus get boned in getting meaningful employement and end up with a sh!tty part time job. I'm probably one of those "older folks" who is not "linked in" and not in with the new "model". I suspect most of the people who really need a break on health care are not linked in either. There are millions of underclass workers in this country and I am certain employers will do all they can to continue to exclude them, ACA notwithstanding. There really is no continued further excuse for employer based health insurance.

wardd
07-31-2013, 12:50 PM
I agree many jobs are seen as expendable. A crappy employer is a recognizable entity in our society. Really one should work for only nimble and forward thinking organizations (many service companies are able to recognize this too). there is a big difference between a job and a position. there is another trend that is also emerging as a result of Facebook and LinkedIn... A modern workforce member anchors themselves within a on-line social group where work and meaningful friendships are intertwined. friends don't let friends work in crappy conditions - it does not fit within collaborative models we set up in modern schools and business units. then again jerks who perform poorly, act improperly or are detrimental to the unit are discarded immediately. As a side note - many socially immature or even older folks in the workforce do not understand this new model and lack the skills to get in with the new processes of work - thus get boned in getting meaningful employement and end up with a sh!tty part time job.

right on, let's all apply for the same job

Ted Hoppe
07-31-2013, 01:02 PM
right on, let's all apply for the same job

It's called job sharing - part time pay for full time work...

The model should have been universal healthcare with sliding costs based on income tax records at the beginning. the healthcare system will be critical once the floor drops out for the 60,000,000 part time employees who can not afford to make the co-pay. You can't belittle European style socialism if 60 percent of the US working population does not have full time employment or even home ownership.

CWSmith
07-31-2013, 01:09 PM
it's working only if you're not a republican or jamie

Well, reality is subjective, isn't it? No, wait, it's not.


Good thinking! How about 20 hrs at Burger King and 20 at McDonald's"? Just to mix it up.

I've heard many times that the modern worker just isn't loyal to their employer. What else could explain this, right?

I'm old enough to remember when fast food was employment for high school students, not careers for adults trying to raise a family. I don't think we are going to break the downward cycle until American consumers are willing to pay more.

hanleyclifford
07-31-2013, 01:36 PM
Fast food is becoming a "career" as the US spirals down into a service economy.

CWSmith
07-31-2013, 02:06 PM
Fast food is becoming a "career" as the US spirals down into a service economy.

Very true. I have said it before, but so long as we take our business to the Wallmarts of the world, we outsource our own jobs and our economy shrinks. We need to pay more, have less, and make it in America, but so few are willing to make this sacrifice.

wardd
07-31-2013, 02:53 PM
Well, reality is subjective, isn't it? No, wait, it's not.



I've heard many times that the modern worker just isn't loyal to their employer. What else could explain this, right?

I'm old enough to remember when fast food was employment for high school students, not careers for adults trying to raise a family. I don't think we are going to break the downward cycle until American consumers are willing to pay more.

can pay more

Mrleft8
07-31-2013, 05:07 PM
Correct, but ACA is going to institutionalize the practice.

No. The people who try to take advantage of the loop holes in the laws, which were specifically designed to be flawed by politicians owned by the insurance industry (Including my own Joe Lieberman), are going to institutionalize the practice.

hanleyclifford
08-01-2013, 09:26 PM
No. The people who try to take advantage of the loop holes in the laws, which were specifically designed to be flawed by politicians owned by the insurance industry (Including my own Joe Lieberman), are going to institutionalize the practice. You are quibbling here. One mans' provision is another man's loophole. But I do not disagree with your obvious distaste for insurance companies.

epoxyboy
08-02-2013, 05:13 AM
Regrettably most jobs do not fall under that category. The workers who are expendable and replaceable are the ones who need help and ACA is going to be counterproductive.
You have got to be kidding - this is the pendulum swinging all the way to the other extreme. They only "look after" their employees so they can screw them for sixteen hours a day. I dont know about you, but I work to live, not the other way around-I actually have a life outside of the workplace.
The irony in NZ is that if you have to have a second (or third) job because you are stuck in the part-time trap, you also get f@@@ed over by the government. They charge secondary tax at a higher rate on the "extra" jobs. If it turns out at the end of the year that you over paid tax on you total income, you get the money back but forget about interest.

John Smith
08-02-2013, 08:30 AM
I happened to watch a bit of Hannity last night. They were talking about the ACA. One of the guys on the show told us of an IRS employee who has been told he can't keep his present insurance. I'm sure this scared the hell out of every federal government employee watching. As one who is in the Federal Employees Health Benefit system, I can tell you that I've not been told by anyone, anywhere, that I cannot stay in the system and keep the insurance I have.

What I found even more strange is the continued conversation about how we should strive to give everyone the same insurance options members of congress get. I have those same options. So do the IRS employees. When the exchanges are in place, all the carriers will be playing by the very same rules those carriers in the FEHB play by. In essence, everyone will have the same insurance members of congress have, and it will likely be many of the same insurance carriers that join the FEHB will join the exchanges.

Hannity and his friends seem to have no idea what they are talking about, but they keep talking.

CWSmith
08-02-2013, 08:46 AM
can pay more

Agreed. When I was visiting Australia decades ago I was stunned to realize that waiters were professionals making a real living. They did not accept tips in the usual American sense. Once they even chased me down outside to return the tip and explain to me it wasn't necessary in Australia. If they can pay their workers a living wage and society does not crumble to the ground, why can't we?

Bobcat
08-02-2013, 09:06 AM
Anecdotal evidence here. The preminums for my group health insurance as a small business owner went down a bit over 9 percent this year. I don't ever remember that happening before

hanleyclifford
08-02-2013, 12:03 PM
You have got to be kidding - this is the pendulum swinging all the way to the other extreme. They only "look after" their employees so they can screw them for sixteen hours a day. I dont know about you, but I work to live, not the other way around-I actually have a life outside of the workplace.
The irony in NZ is that if you have to have a second (or third) job because you are stuck in the part-time trap, you also get f@@@ed over by the government. They charge secondary tax at a higher rate on the "extra" jobs. If it turns out at the end of the year that you over paid tax on you total income, you get the money back but forget about interest. I cannot see the connection between your post and the quotation from my post. Please explain.

John Smith
08-02-2013, 12:49 PM
Anecdotal evidence here. The preminums for my group health insurance as a small business owner went down a bit over 9 percent this year. I don't ever remember that happening before

My federal Blue Cross premium has been virtually the same for two years. Went down $3 a month in '12 and up $1 a month in '13. Prior to that it had gone up every year significantly.

John Smith
08-03-2013, 07:24 AM
Being a glutton for punishment, I watched a few minutes of Hannity. Seems his entire show was dedicated to convincing people the ACA is not working, is going to cost a lot more money than predicted, and will create some kind of living hell and devour our children.

All of what I heard in the few minutes I watched was false information. People who believe this probably want the law to be repealed.

I was reminded of the night my aunt called me and told me I had to watch his show that night. It was about the drought in California and how the Department of Interior had the water supply, such as it was, going to the smelt in some water basin, and not to the farmers whose crops were dying. He did a live hour show with interviews and stuff. I did some research the next day and found that the DoI had directed that water to those farmers months before this show was on the air. The entire show was based on a lie. I emailed that information, including the documentation, to my aunt. She got mad at me for pointing out Hannity was lying rather than getting angry at him for the lying.

I think that shows us where our country is.

Reynard38
08-03-2013, 09:58 AM
People don't watch shows like Hannity to be informed. They have already made up thier minds and are only looking for reinforcement.

wardd
08-03-2013, 10:19 AM
People don't watch shows like Hannity to be informed. They have already made up thier minds and are only looking for reinforcement.

they also need something/someone to be mad at because of being dissatisfied with their own lives and the world around them which they don't understand

John Smith
08-03-2013, 12:36 PM
People don't watch shows like Hannity to be informed. They have already made up thier minds and are only looking for reinforcement.

My aunt and my brother watched Hannity and the others on Fox News. They believed they were well informed.

It continues to disturb me that shows like this can tell absolute falsehoods sans any disclaimer. I don't think it's free speech. I think it's fraud. In that, I seem to be a minority of one, but I see this stuff being accepted as free speech as the downfall of our nation.

I watch C-Span some, and watched a good deal of the senate debate on the ACA. The you tube video of Franken catching Thune lying was not at all unique to the proceedings. We allow our elected officials to misrepresent matters of fact for political gain, and we do so at our great peril.

So far, every bad thing the right has predicted about the ACA has proven false, just like the WMD's, the oil paying for the war, Clinton's '93 budget destroying our economy, etc.

And yet, because so many believe to be true what is not true, there is a real possibility that the ACA will simply not be funded. If it is sabotaged, it might not work, and then those who sabotaged it will make hay out of their predictions coming true.

John Smith
08-03-2013, 12:37 PM
they also need something/someone to be mad at because of being dissatisfied with their own lives and the world around them which they don't understand

This is how some states have managed to get the general public angry at the teachers, cops, and firefighters. I, however, have been unable to get anyone to show me a single private sector job that was lost because we had too many teachers, cops, or firefighters>