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John Smith
07-28-2013, 11:52 AM
First, let me state my understanding so that if I'm wrong I may be corrected.

The part of the Voting Rights Act the Supreme Court knocked down was that which has several states, due to their history, have to have pre-approval for changing their election laws.

I think EVERY state, regardless of it's particular history should have to get pre-approval for any significant change in their voting system.

My reasoning is that a state with a "good" history can most certainly develop a "bad" history pretty quickly. Also, if an election is held and it included changes that court challenges fail to uphold, so the election was held under illegal or improper rules, what is the remedy? Can we undo the election?

skuthorp
07-28-2013, 05:20 PM
What I fail to comprehend is how you can have a Federal election under differing and discriminatory state laws and not have the election declared corrupt or at least invalid. I would have thought that any recent Presidential election was invalid before it was held, but then the SC can always declare valid whatever it fancies. The principle is, of course, firmly ensconced in many totalitarian regimes which makes it even more inexplicable.

Ian McColgin
07-28-2013, 06:13 PM
To understand how significant state authority is in our electoral system takes reading our Constitution, understanding the historical context in which it was written, and how states are unwilling (and without constitutional amendment unable) to give up their prerogatives, no matter how outdated and stupid.

John Smith
07-28-2013, 06:18 PM
If I recall properly, at least part of the Gore v Bush decision was that the state couldn't be recounted based on the fact that not all voters had used the same type of voting equipment. I remember thinking that under that logic no votes should be counted anywhere.

The Supreme Court, IMO, screwed up again. I'm not sure the people have the power to unscrew them. I don't see how we get money out of politics if those with the money don't want that to happen, and I don't see how we keep the fundamental right to vote when a concerted effort is working to make it harder.

Under the constitution, the Supreme Court should have left Gore v Bush to the Florida Supreme Court.

CWSmith
07-28-2013, 08:14 PM
I think greater oversight is required and good for all. I also think you other states should go back to the paper ballots we have in NH - no corrupt computer programs and no hanging chads. Last, we need to fix gerrymandering, but I don't know how. Don't hold your breath for the current crowd to do any of that.

Waddie
07-28-2013, 09:38 PM
At least every ballot is secret in this country. It isn't a public vote where everyone knows how you voted. Oh, wait, except if it is a union election, then everybody gets to see your vote..... There are many forms of corruption..........

regards,
Waddie

Cuyahoga Chuck
07-28-2013, 11:18 PM
At least every ballot is secret in this country. It isn't a public vote where everyone knows how you voted. Oh, wait, except if it is a union election, then everybody gets to see your vote..... There are many forms of corruption..........

regards,
Waddie

I voted in numerous UAW elections both national and local. The rules were administered by the National Labor Relations Board. We used the old single lever, tote-board style, mechanical voting machines. As far as I know they were certified and sealed before they were put into use just like those used by the state.

Waddie
07-28-2013, 11:54 PM
I voted in numerous UAW elections both national and local. The rules were administered by the National Labor Relations Board. We used the old single lever, tote-board style, mechanical voting machines. As far as I know they were certified and sealed before they were put into use just like those used by the state.

Good to hear that. For a minute I thought you all would be in favor of "card check". Or are they calling it "employee free choice" now? Disguise and deceive...

regards,
Waddie

Cuyahoga Chuck
07-31-2013, 11:12 AM
Good to hear that. For a minute I thought you all would be in favor of "card check". Or are they calling it "employee free choice" now? Disguise and deceive...

regards,
Waddie

I don't know what "card check" is. We didn't have it in the UAW.

CWSmith
07-31-2013, 02:34 PM
At least every ballot is secret in this country.

The concern with electronic voting machines is that your vote may be secret even from you.

Flying Orca
07-31-2013, 03:06 PM
Last, we need to fix gerrymandering, but I don't know how.

That much is simple: use an algorithm (there's plenty of research on this) and let computers create your voting districts. Done right, they shouldn't have to be changed too often.

Peerie Maa
07-31-2013, 03:11 PM
^ + put it in the hands of an independent authority whose ToR's are to be politically neutral.

Flying Orca
07-31-2013, 03:17 PM
^ + put it in the hands of an independent authority whose ToR's are to be politically neutral.

Indeed - I should have thought that went without saying, but this is the Excited States we're talking about... :D

John Smith
07-31-2013, 04:35 PM
At least every ballot is secret in this country. It isn't a public vote where everyone knows how you voted. Oh, wait, except if it is a union election, then everybody gets to see your vote..... There are many forms of corruption..........

regards,
Waddie

That's simply untrue. I've been involved in many union elections and all were secret ballots.

John Smith
07-31-2013, 04:37 PM
When our elections lose their integrity, we lose everything. And we are heading in that direction.

CWSmith
07-31-2013, 06:35 PM
^ + put it in the hands of an independent authority whose ToR's are to be politically neutral.

With even the Supreme Court so highly politicized, I doubt such a group can be reliably assembled.

wardd
07-31-2013, 07:13 PM
nation wide uniform voting standards for national elections reps sens prez

skuthorp
08-01-2013, 05:45 AM
You could always ask some other country to run your elections, for a fee of course. The Aussie Electoral Commission has a good reputation, or the Brits? Hmm, not the French or Italians, you'd get Berlusconi as president despite the constitution. Maybe the Germans. Canada is probably too close and Mexico………………….. nah.

tizziec
08-01-2013, 06:00 AM
It doesn't really matter when such a large majority of the voting public is so undereducated in how the system works., what they are voting on, how their vote counts and what the candidates stand for besides a color or animal. But then I am someone who was more excited to get my voting rights than my driving rights.

skuthorp
08-01-2013, 06:06 AM
"It doesn't really matter when such a large majority of the voting public is so undereducated in how the system works"
You are not the only ones. Down here we see so much US TV that half the voters think they elect the PM. Our constitution doesn't recognise parties, only individual members, and he/she is what they vote for. It doesn't even recognise the PM as a formal position. The PM is whichever elected member of the lower house can command a majority. In fact it could change day to day,depending on whom had the numbers and that member would be PM as long as he had them. Of course in practice it doesn't and probably couldn't work that way.

tizziec
08-01-2013, 06:10 AM
"It doesn't really matter when such a large majority of the voting public is so undereducated in how the system works"
You are not the only ones. Down here we see so much US TV that half the voters think they elect the PM. Our constitution doesn't recognise parties, only individual members, and he/she is what they vote for. It doesn't even recognise the PM as a formal position. The PM is whichever elected member of the lower house can command a majority. In fact it could change day to day,depending on whom had the numbers and that member would be PM as long as he had them. Of course in practice it doesn't and probably couldn't work that way.


I read something on your system once... seemed very confusing, but also seems to work well enough so... I personally have a firm beliefe that our system CAN work and that if used properly does in fact put the majorty of power in the hands of the voting public (WE the People) but it only works if it is understood. Too many people did NOT grow up on School House Rock, or didn't pay attention it seems :)

skuthorp
08-01-2013, 06:20 AM
For the reason of close numbers and a minority government supported by independents and a third party ours a has been under pressure from an opposition that never accepted they didn't get the nod, and expected the government to crash at any time, for 4 years.. In spite of that it suvived. But at least we don't have our states fiddling the electoral system or boundaries and editing the electoral roll.

tizziec
08-01-2013, 06:29 AM
For the reason of close numbers and a minority government supported by independents and a third party ours a has been under pressure from an opposition that never accepted they didn't get the nod, and expected the government to crash at any time, for 4 years.. In spite of that it suvived. But at least we don't have our states fiddling the electoral system or boundaries and editing the electoral roll.

The American games of spite between the states and the fed (lots of people are being screwed by the game, but unfortunately until they figure out that they actually have control over it, the game will continue) Basically it equates to watching kids playing ball, and the one who owns the ball on that day getting peeved and doing the old "well I am going home and taking my ball with me SO THERE :p

John Smith
08-01-2013, 07:58 AM
The American games of spite between the states and the fed (lots of people are being screwed by the game, but unfortunately until they figure out that they actually have control over it, the game will continue) Basically it equates to watching kids playing ball, and the one who owns the ball on that day getting peeved and doing the old "well I am going home and taking my ball with me SO THERE :p

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-31-2013/can-t-touch-this Elsewhere I saw a poll showing that even after the famous 11 hour filibuster and a second special session in Texas to pass anti-abortion bill, and all the huge protests against it, 52% of the people in Texas had NO KNOWLEGE any of this was happening.

CWSmith
08-01-2013, 08:47 AM
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-july-31-2013/can-t-touch-this Elsewhere I saw a poll showing that even after the famous 11 hour filibuster and a second special session in Texas to pass anti-abortion bill, and all the huge protests against it, 52% of the people in Texas had NO KNOWLEGE any of this was happening.

I bet they can name every player on the Dallas Cow Boys.

John Smith
08-01-2013, 08:51 AM
I bet they can name every player on the Dallas Cow Boys.

Probably right. We were playing a game a couple of weeks ago and the question was, "What is one of the things you are most concerned about?"

My answer was "Fracking" Turns out I was the only one at the table who knew what this is.

Back when Reagan was president he did a few things postal workers didn't like. We made herculean efforts to warn them. We sent mailings to their homes, we had weekly bulletins posted in the lunch room, and discussed them at union meetings. Seems a similar 50 plus percent were taken totally by surprise when these things showed up in their paychecks.

CWSmith
08-01-2013, 07:17 PM
Truly sad.

skuthorp
08-02-2013, 12:14 AM
One could say 'caveat emptor', the translation being 'you get the government you deserve'.

CWSmith
08-02-2013, 08:51 AM
Probably right. We were playing a game a couple of weeks ago and the question was, "What is one of the things you are most concerned about?"

My answer was "Fracking" Turns out I was the only one at the table who knew what this is.

Back when Reagan was president he did a few things postal workers didn't like. We made herculean efforts to warn them. We sent mailings to their homes, we had weekly bulletins posted in the lunch room, and discussed them at union meetings. Seems a similar 50 plus percent were taken totally by surprise when these things showed up in their paychecks.

I've been thinking about this and I do not understand. How do people care so little about their society and their government. I don't agree with most conservatives these days, but at least they care! Is society full of dolts? Do they not associate voting with the quality of the laws that get written? I know some of these people, but I don't understand them.