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sawcutmill
11-02-2000, 01:55 PM
Does anyone realy believe that halsey's grandfather would really endorse and use Harken products on his boats today? think about it!where's the bronze?

Todd Bradshaw
11-02-2000, 02:28 PM
While I can clearly see your point and cringe at the sight of a Hexa-rachet perched atop a nice bronze sheethorse, I think he would. It's always been my impression that the drive to build the best, lightest, fastest and strongest boats with what was available at the time was the real goal, rather than to build "classics". We are the ones who made them classics because we are still in awe of their grace and elegance.

Harken also has a formidible design and custom hardware department that would appeal to any yacht designer who is constantly faced with questions and problems requiring better solutions. They even showed custom-built, wood-shelled blocks in the catalog a couple of years ago, but I guess the idea didn't fly.

sawcutmill
11-02-2000, 02:50 PM
yes , you are probably right but then again would you use harken hardware on your boat? i am sure the Co. has an extensive R+D team as well as all the other corporate stuff that goes along w/ it, except the add is a stretch and a half for the museum to be sponsored by it, it seems self serving and just another example of how far Halsey has gone from the mainstream of WB(empasize wood) to promote his museum. but i am not suprised considering that the modern plastic boats that are out in front of the museum are not worth looking up at, but that is where the$ is i guess, maybe it is a sign of our times or maybe it is just a sign- meaning that if this what it is coming to it is time to reevaluate what it means to be a Herreshoff!

sawcutmill
11-02-2000, 03:03 PM
by the way why is it that to support the argument one always says "if he (Cap't Nat) were alive today, he would certainly use this product/proceedure"? i feel that when we do this kind of injustice to those who were really building boats that we lose the importance of the relationship we have to them, does anyone ever say "if so and so were alive he would do this x thing " too? for example insert any past person who has made a mark on the development of an issue, let's say for the sake of arguement it is Einstein or melville, or alden,crane,hanna, etc.

Scott Rosen
11-03-2000, 07:17 AM
Why would any of you even give the time of day to Madison Avenue hucksters and their Madison Avenue hype. I found the ad to be insulting. My opinion of both Halsey Herreshoff and Harken Hardware dropped a notch.

TomRobb
11-03-2000, 09:21 AM
Why does any one pick out a time and place in history and declare it sacred? If you're so enamored with the late 19th century, why not try to live it? Give up every moderrn convenience, all modern medicine, all public health advances, your car, your phone, the computer you added to this thread with, etc, ad nausium.
Get a grip. It isn't world peace. It isn't curing cancer. It's just a boat.
My God, this stuff gets tiresome! Hereshoff was an engineer in business to make money and soothe his ego. (aren't we all?) He did the best he could with the materials at hand. May we?


[This message has been edited by TomRobb (edited 11-03-2000).]

sawcutmill
11-03-2000, 11:11 AM
the harken/herreshoff debate goes on.and you sir missed the point entirely! the only ad nausium is your ignorance about the above topic,halsey is not building boats,curing cancer, or attempting world peace and neither should you, he is trying w/ his museum to enhance, enrich our experience with the past, no one sayed anything about living it.Nat harreshoff was an engineer true, trying to build boats the best way he could w/ what materials at the time were available, and to that end he did what he set out to do and then some.but what is the relationship of a museum representing the past acheivements of one of the greatest designers/builders ever have to do with this ad? by the way not all things new are better than what capt nat offered, and if you dont believe this then you know nothing of the 151 patents that are, in effect, revolutionary today, yesterday and tomorrow.yes it is just a boat but you fail to see the hypocrisy that you expound as well as the ad does. and by the way did anybody else see the misprint of "vigilant"'s name?one would think a high priced ad of such gloss and no substance would at least do their editorial obligations to correct it,but that gets right back to my point "what is this ad doing for the museum?" and why should we believe everything halsey says?if anybody is trying to profit from the past it is him.by the way, i didn't see any Harken hardware in the museum.

TomRobb
11-03-2000, 01:36 PM
As I said, "My God, this stuff gets tiresome."
So much passion.... (Oh My God. Have I just been flamed?)
It could be argued that of his many achievements and 151 patents that his best legacy is the 12 1/2. Triple expansion steam engines, while fascinating and arguably beautiful, are not engineering high art these days.
I couldn't care less if Halsey claims that NGH would have used Preparation H if only it had been available. Perhaps it would have done something for his sour disposition.
Sir, I respect your passion for his work and times. Why worry about Halsey and his financial dealings? It's a cliche that genius doesn't pass on to subsequent generations.
Hypocrisy? Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. I think I've been reasonably straight forward about this.
Argue the ideas if you like. Name calling doesn't accomplish much that's useful.
NGH isn't God. Bristol isn't the Temple Mount. Sorry if I've gored your ox, but they're still only boats.

[This message has been edited by TomRobb (edited 11-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by TomRobb (edited 11-03-2000).]

sawcutmill
11-03-2000, 02:22 PM
ouch! i am sorry if i was out of line, but all i was trying to do was raise the bar and awareness on this forum. if it so tiresome, why do you bother to write such stuff. nevermind.NEXT.onwards to a better place , maybe your boats are just that, just boats, but to a majority of readers boats are it.

TomRobb
11-03-2000, 02:40 PM
I wrote it because it was what I thought at the time. Your post was interesting. We disagree, but so what. More progress may come from diasagreements than argeements.
Personally, I find LFH's boats more interesting than his old man's. Again, so what. If I were restoring an original Herreshoff, I'd try to bring it at least back to original, out-the-factory-door condition. If I were building one for myself (Quiet Tune, YES!)I'd seriously consider Harken stuff. It works beautifully. But that's just me.
There's some seriously disgusting, disturbing stuff put out by Ad-Flacks - Sexpot child models for instance. Halsey's crap is nearly the least of it.
Do raise the bar. Somebody's got to do it.

sawcutmill
11-03-2000, 03:13 PM
i wouldn't know about the porn you mention but i can tell you to go to the misc. category in this forum and check out"we aked for it" title, scroll down till you come across a nice picture of beautiful girls clad in bathing suits all around a gorgeous hydro plane made of wood, now that is "classic"!

Gary Bergman
11-03-2000, 06:47 PM
Phooey! I prefer Schaefer stuff on my Herreshoff, not Harken. It's not traditional stuff, but works good and looks functional, not like sheaves from Nasa.

noquiklos
11-03-2000, 10:41 PM
Personally, I'm leaning toward Garhauer gear. Incredibly strong, simple, and you can get it in titanium for a 50% markup.
Older is not, necessarily, better, and it gets really tiring to hear the "tested by time" dogma. I'd be willing to bet that at least 80% of us are more concerned with functionality than historical accuracy. I love the authentic classics, but none of my boats come close to "classic" status. Thus, teak over ply decks, CPES all over the place, and plenty of plywood bulkheads.
So, there!
Roy

htom
11-03-2000, 10:58 PM
Cap't Nat Herreshoff would have improved the Hexarachet, made it look "traditional", and charged thrice the price.

Bill Berrisford
11-06-2000, 12:32 PM
I don't Nat Herreshoff could be considered 'traditional' in anything he designed. (An aluminum hulled racing sloop or a catamaran for example.) They were advanced ideas using the most modern materials of the time. If Capt. Nat were alive I believe he would have been envious of Harken.

Ross Faneuf
11-06-2000, 05:23 PM
I haven't seen (or at least haven't noticed) the ad, so can't comment on it. But my boat is all Harken except for my (sigh of regrets for past greatness) Barient winches. And it seems like real good gear. For cruisers like me, all the top gear builds seem good, and I get a good deal on Harken through my sailmaker, so... Course I have a cold-molded boat, and don't have to worship at the traditional bronze gear temple (though I have plenty of bronze too).

Ed Harrow
11-17-2000, 12:35 PM
Me thinks if the old man were still here nobody would know the name Harkin, "outside of a small cicle of friends". I've not seen the ad, but it sounds stupider than most, but so what. That's why they get the big bucks.

Dave Fleming
01-01-2001, 02:01 PM
Attn: Tom Robb
With replies such as you made to this thread...You need to spend more time over in the Miscellanous forum.

Note: above said with tongue firmly in cheek.

<RBG>

TomRobb
01-01-2001, 03:29 PM
Dave,
It seems to me that there's already too much in MISC. But that's probably ok.
To all,
Sorry about the rant.

wandiwise
01-01-2001, 03:56 PM
Nothing wrong with ranting, as we all must get things out of our system occasionally.

We must remember that Capt Nat was inventing much of what he did when he was doing it, off the shelf stuff being generally not available, and he made many improvements on what was.

Speaking of Halsey H., it seems to me that the tactician on the America's Cup boat skippered by one Dennis someone or other who managed to lose the Cup for this country for the first time ever, was named Halsey Herreshof. And, if any of you, as I did, watched that last race of that series on t.v., and saw the lead boat, Dennis, allow the following boat, the Aussie, to tack away on a downwind leg toward the finish line, without tacking to cover, you would be forced to think there was something lacking in the tactical advice aboard that boat.

'Nuff said.

Best wishes to all for a nicer year than the one past.

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