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Jim Bow
06-03-2013, 01:31 PM
During a report on the passing of Sen Lautenberg, a reporter mentioned that the last vet of WWII will die within the next 16 years. My grandaughters will witness the 100th Anniversary of WWII.

In 1961 I was 15 years old, living in Cincinnati, going to Xavier High School. I don't recall any special attention paid to the 100th anniversary other than a special edition of Life magazine.

Wonder if the WWII centenary will be noticed by the general public.

Rum_Pirate
06-03-2013, 01:46 PM
During a report on the passing of Sen Lautenberg, a reporter mentioned that the last vet of WWII will die within the next 16 years. My grandaughters will witness the 100th Anniversary of WWII.

In 1961 I was 15 years old, living in Cincinnati, going to Xavier High School. I don't recall any special attention paid to the 100th anniversary other than a special edition of Life magazine.

Wonder if the WWII centenary will be noticed by the general public.


In 1961 I was 15 years old, living in Cincinnati, going to Xavier High School. I don't recall any special attention paid to the 100th anniversary (OF WHAT?) other than a special edition of Life magazine.

bogdog
06-03-2013, 01:58 PM
In 1961 I was 15 years old, living in Cincinnati, going to Xavier High School. I don't recall any special attention paid to the 100th anniversary (OF WHAT?) other than a special edition of Life magazine.
WWI? War of Northern Aggression? Velocipede?

Rum_Pirate
06-03-2013, 02:03 PM
I did find:

In 1861 the civil war started in America !

1861 January

Mississippi spits from the Union.

Florida withdraws from the U.S,

Georgia unites with the Confederacy,

February

Serfdom is stopped in Russia

April

The was begins with the Confederate firing at Fort Sumter in SC.

Virginia splits from the Union.

May

Arkansas leaves the Union.

June

Tennessee is the 11th and last state to leave the Union.


October

The 18 month old Pony Express is ended with the first transcontinental telegraph line in the U.S.

Michael D. Storey
06-03-2013, 06:48 PM
A lot has changed since the early 60's. We were less than a generation from WWll, and still very heavily influenced by it and its constant state of readiness.
Also, we celebrate everything now. Remember halloween inflatable lawn decor? Neither do I. Easter? Thanksgiving? I do, however, remember the Times Union in Rochester issuing their daily reports from the front during the Civil War centennial, however.

WX
06-03-2013, 08:51 PM
We are rapidly approaching the centenary of The Great War. Even though the general population knows little about it other than Gallipoli the event will be remembered by large crowds.
The Second World War won't be forgotten in a hurry, it's impact was far too great and far reaching.

tizziec
06-04-2013, 05:45 AM
Funny how it's a jump to talking about the 100th of WWII when it is still decades away, whlie the world appears content (at least from the American perspective sadly) to be letting the 100th of WWI slide by, which we are pretty much on top of right now!

I have a list of books concerning the nuetral years for America that I am holding off on re-reading in order to memorialize the first great war in my way.

tizziec
06-04-2013, 05:46 AM
We are rapidly approaching the centenary of The Great War. Even though the general population knows little about it other than Gallipoli the event will be remembered by large crowds.
The Second World War won't be forgotten in a hurry, it's impact was far too great and far reaching.

And we have John Ford's footage to keep it fresh :)

John Smith
06-04-2013, 05:48 AM
We are rapidly approaching the centenary of The Great War. Even though the general population knows little about it other than Gallipoli the event will be remembered by large crowds.
The Second World War won't be forgotten in a hurry, it's impact was far too great and far reaching.

Also a lot more film of the war and the events surrounding it.

bogdog
06-04-2013, 05:53 AM
Gallipoli? Some place in Italy I guess, didn't think they were even involved in WWI

Tom Hunter
06-04-2013, 06:51 AM
A normal 15 year old would have missed the 100th anniversary of the civil war if they celebrated by burning Atlanta a second time. During the 60s the reinactor movement got going because of the anniversary, and there were books Bruce Catton among many others, stamps by the postal service, and events in the national parks. The English civil was is turning 400 this century, and they still reinact and memorialize it.

bogdog
06-04-2013, 07:11 AM
The Recent Unpleasantness is still a topic of conversation in these parts, in Wisconsin not so much, but WWII is still big up thar. Didn't seem that long ago there were still vets from the Spanish American War in the Memorial Day Parade in Oshkosh, WI, guess that must have been back in the '80s.

Ian McColgin
06-04-2013, 07:16 AM
Anyway, the centennial of WWI will be along a good deal sooner. Do others here have family that were in that? How do you plan to memorialize their service?

One thought I have is to track down Grandfather's WWI Army Air Corps uniform. Dad donated it and his own WWII AAC uniform to some obscure museum in France that had something to do with both his and grandfather's (Mom's father's) service in the two wars. And like a jerk I didn't write it down. So it will be a pleasing filial duty to find out and maybe even visit.

Keith Wilson
06-04-2013, 07:33 AM
A normal 15 year old would have missed the 100th anniversary of the civil war if they celebrated by burning Atlanta a second time:d Probably true. I must not have been a normal kid; I was born in 1955 and remember the centennial stuff very clearly. OTOH, I used to read my father's books about the US civil war and visit battlefields with him. Nothing like standing on Little Round Top to give you a sense of history, or on the heights at Fredericksburg thinking what an idiot Burnside must have been.

Remembering WWI would be a good idea; we in the US often forget because we came out of it very lighty, but it had more effect in the long run than WWII, which could be considered a continuation

varadero
06-04-2013, 07:51 AM
Gallipoli? Some place in Italy I guess, didn't think they were even involved in WWI

Try Google, just once, pleeeeze

bogdog
06-04-2013, 08:01 AM
On my maternal side we have a reunion every July so when the WWI anniversary rolls around we'll have somebody from each of the family lines talk about one of the three family members who served in WWI. My uncle Luther was gassed so he never really recovered enough to work his farm again. Luckily most of the family lived nearby so chores were spread out and my Aunt was one very tough capable woman. My grandfather was a Medical Corp. ambulance driver. I have a number of of old sepia tone photos of him and my uncles but all the physical stuff disappeared decades ago when homes were auctioned to pay medical bills and nursing home care. My grandfather tried to volunteer in WWII, he was furious when he was turned down.

Dan McCosh
06-04-2013, 08:38 AM
Gallipoli? Some place in Italy I guess, didn't think they were even involved in WWI Hemingway did.

The Bigfella
06-04-2013, 10:05 AM
Gallipoli? Some place in Italy I guess, didn't think they were even involved in WWI

The combatants suffered well over double the number of casualties that were suffered by America during the entire war. Guess it isn't significant enough to rate for you, eh?

downthecreek
06-04-2013, 10:53 AM
We are rapidly approaching the centenary of The Great War. Even though the general population knows little about it other than Gallipoli the event will be remembered by large crowds.
The Second World War won't be forgotten in a hurry, it's impact was far too great and far reaching.

In Australia, possibly. Here are some of the great battles - many just as terrible and destructive as Gallipoli or even more so (Verdun? Somme? Ypres? Passchaendale? Messines? Meuse Argonne? Vimy Ridge?) - remembered over here and across Europe:




August, 1914


Tannenberg (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWtannenberg.htm)
August, 1914


Heligoland (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWheligoland.htm)
August, 1914


Marne (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmarne.htm)
September, 1914


Aisne (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWaisne.htm)
September, 1914


Albert (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWalbert.htm)
September, 1914


Arras (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWarras.htm)
October, 1914


Ypres (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWypres.htm)
October - November, 1914


Neuve Chapelle (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWneuve.htm)
March, 1915


Gallipoli Campaign (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWgallipoli.htm)
March, 1915 - January, 1916


Artois (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWartois.htm)
May, 1915


Isonzo (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWisonzo.htm)
June, 1915


Artois-Loos (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWloos.htm)
September, 1915


Verdun (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWverdun.htm)
February - December, 1916


Jutland (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWjutland.htm)
May, 1916


Somme (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWsomme.htm)
July - November, 1916


Gorizia (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWgorizia.htm)
August, 1916


Flers-Courcelette (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWflers.htm)
September, 1916


Gaza (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWgaza.htm)
March - April, 1917


Arras (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWarras2.htm)
April - May, 1917


Aisne (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWaisne2.htm)
April -May, 1917


Messines (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmessines.htm)
June, 1917


Passchendaele (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWpasschendaele.htm)
July - November, 1917


Caporetto (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWcaporetto.htm)
October, 1917


Cambrai (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWcambrai.htm)
November, 1917


Aisne (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWaisne3.htm)
May, 1918


Le Hamel (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWhemel.htm)
July, 1918


Marne (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmarne2.htm)
July, 1918


Amiens (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWamiens.htm)
August, 1918


Albert (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWalbert2.htm)
August, 1918


St Mihiel (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmihiel.htm)
September, 1918


Meuse-Argonne (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWmeuse.htm)
September - November, 1918


Canal du Nord (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWnord.htm)
September, 1918


Vittorio Veneto (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWvittorio.htm)
October, 1918



For a taster, try Alistair Horne's book about Verdun - The Price of Glory (probably the most concentrated and bloodiest conflict of them all, with twice as many dead and missing as at Gallipoli. The defenders of Verdun, who fought like demons, lived like rats, endured almost unbelievable privations and showed sustained and almost superhuman fortitude, were, of course, the despised French) Or, perhaps, visit the Menin Gate at Ypres, upon which are inscribed some 58,000 names - about the same number as on the Vietnam memorial and nearly half the number of dead missing at Gallipoli. The difference is, of course, that these are only the names of soldiers whose bodies were never found........ Or consider the Somme, where there were nearly 20,000 killed or died of wounds on the first day of the battle alone.

It is arguable that WW2 was, in some respects, simply a continuation of the same conflict. It would certainly be hard to argue that the Treaty of Versailles was not a significant influence on the conditions that lead to WW2.

bogdog
06-04-2013, 10:56 AM
The combatants suffered well over double the number of casualties that were suffered by America during the entire war. Guess it isn't significant enough to rate for you, eh?
Jeepers, it was a satirical comment regarding this: "Even though the general population knows little about it other than Gallipoli the event will be remembered by large crowds."

Rum_Pirate
06-04-2013, 12:30 PM
^ and the sole benefit was the death of European dominated colonialism


Good to see how well those now independent countries have done and how far they have progressed since colonialism ended in their countries.

Michael D. Storey
06-04-2013, 02:44 PM
:d Probably true. I must not have been a normal kid; I was born in 1955 and remember the centennial stuff very clearly. OTOH, I used to read my father's books about the US civil war and visit battlefields with him. Nothing like standing on Little Round Top to give you a sense of history, or on the heights at Fredericksburg thinking what an idiot Burnside must have been.

Remembering WWI would be a good idea; we in the US often forget because we came out of it very lighty, but it had more effect in the long run than WWII, which could be considered a continuation

When The Boys were young, we went to Gettysburg one clear day in January with our cross country skis. We knelt in the woods, looking out across that field, and discussed our getting across it alive; how many wound we would inflict, how many we would feel, how many of us were likely to survive. When they were ready (they had the luxury of waiting until they were ready) we took off, little legs pushing, little arms pumping, as fast and as far as they could, until they collapsed into the snow, weeping and gasping for air. Cruelest thing I ever did.

Shelby Foote said that to understand American History it was requisite that one understand The War. I did not study the Civil War until I was 40, ande I heard him say that. I am by no means an expert on it, but I do try to feel it.

Bob Cleek
06-04-2013, 07:35 PM
http://www.tentimesone.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/bar-fight.jpg


IF WWI WAS A BAR FIGHT

Germany, Austria and Italy are standing together in the middle of a pub when Serbia bumps into Austria and spills Austria’s pint.

Austria demands Serbia buy it a whole new suit because of the new beer stains on its trouser leg.

Germany expresses its support for Austria’s point of view.

Britain recommends that everyone calm down a bit.

Serbia points out that it can’t afford a whole suit, but offers to pay for the cleaning of Austria’s trousers.

Russia and Serbia look at Austria.

Austria asks Serbia who it’s looking at.

Russia suggests that Austria should leave its little brother alone.

Austria inquires as to whose army will assist Russia in doing so.

Germany appeals to Britain that France has been looking at it, and that its sufficiently out of order that Britain not intervene.

Britain replies that France can look at who it wants to, that Britain is looking at Germany too, and what is Germany going to do about it?

Germany tells Russia to stop looking at Austria, or Germany will render Russia incapable of such action anymore.

Britain and France ask Germany whether it’s looking at Belgium.

Turkey and Germany go off into a corner and whisper. When they come back, Turkey makes a show of not looking at anyone.

Germany rolls up its sleeves, looks at France, and punches Belgium.

France and Britain punch Germany. Austria punches Russia. Germany punches Britain and France with one hand and Russia with the other.

Russia throws a punch at Germany, but misses and nearly falls over. Japan calls over from the other side of the room that it’s on Britain’s side, but stays there. Italy surprises everyone by punching Austria.

Australia punches Turkey, and gets punched back. There are no hard feelings because Britain made Australia do it.

France gets thrown through a plate glass window, but gets back up and carries on fighting. Russia gets thrown through another one, gets knocked out, suffers brain damage, and wakes up with a complete personality change.

Italy throws a punch at Austria and misses, but Austria falls over anyway. Italy raises both fists in the air and runs round the room chanting.

America waits till Germany is about to fall over from sustained punching from Britain and France, then walks over and smashes it with a barstool, then pretends it won the fight all by itself.

By now all the chairs are broken and the big mirror over the bar is shattered. Britain, France and America agree that Germany threw the first punch, so the whole thing is Germany’s fault . While Germany is still unconscious, they go through its pockets, steal its wallet, and buy drinks for all their friends.

Bob Cleek
06-04-2013, 07:38 PM
IF WWII WAS A BAR FIGHT

Still sore from the night before, Germany has had one too many pints. It is sucking up to Russia, deciding it doesn’t want to pay for the drinks that France insists it owes. They then drunkenly shout out that Austria is its brother, man, and Italy is their long time best friend.

Sauced now and belligerent, Germany is glaring angrily about the bar. Italy is already marching around, challenging everyone to step outside. America had left the bar some time ago and no one was sure where it’d gone.

With nothing better to do, Germany challenges Soviet Russia to an arm wrestling match at the Spanish table, while Japan was in the back room whacking China with a pool cue.

Armwrestling over, Germany goes to the bar again and orders another pint and one for Austria. Glancing over to Czechoslovakia, Germany says, “Hey, nice shirt. I want it”.

Before Czechoslovakia can jump from the bar stool and take a swing, Britain walks over and stands between the two, saying, “Can’t we just get along? Come on, now, Czechoslovakia, just the shirt, that’s all.”

Humiliated, Czechoslovakia hands over the shirt and Britain walks back to the corner table with France saying, “See? Peace in our time.”

At the other end of the pub, Italy has finally found someone to fight: it kicks Ethiopia in the goolies as they walk in. Germany, raises their pint glass in salute to Italy.

Then they look at Russia who’s wandered back in after checking on Japan in the back room and both look over at Poland who’s been sitting by themselves at a small table….. right next to Germany. England and France stare at Germany and England wags their finger at Germany. Germany gives them an “aw shucks” grin and then turns and knocks Poland’s beer off the table.

Poland stands up to confront Germany beckoning for England and France to come over and help. Russia then taps Poland on the shoulder and when they turn around Germany grabs the chair and smashes it over Poland’s head. Russia then rushes in and begins kicking Poland repeatedly as they lay writhing on the floor.

Germany turns to England and France and makes a “come on then” gesture, but England and France slink back to their table and continue to utter threats in low voices. Denmark, Norway, Holland, and Belgium who popped in for a quick one after work all look worried and finish their drinks in a hurry and yell for the bill.

Finland who’s been sitting in a corner quietly notices Russia is distracted going through the unconscious Poland’s pockets, and quickly sneaks up behind them and smashes a vodka bottle over their head.

Russia gets up, shakes their head, grabs Finland by one arm and tosses them against the wall, knocking them completely out. Russia then goes back to their table in the far corner and sits down to sulk. Japan notices this and slinks out back to see if China has woken up yet.

England grabs the phone and calls Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and India and tells them to get down here right quick and oh could one of them pop around to the United States and tell them to grab their baseball bat and come over. Then England walks over and stands by France confronting Germany, Italy and their mates now standing in the middle of the room.

Everyone else quickly pays their bill and heads for the door.

Germany crosses the room, rolls up its sleeves and with four punches knocks Denmark, Norway, Holland and Belgium out cold. Germany then grabs all their wallets and tosses them on a table to sort through later.

France is upset that its little cousin Belgium has been taken out and rushes to get at Germany. Italy has finally finished going through Ethiopia’s pockets sees France on the move, sticks out its leg and trips them. When France gets up Germany picks up an entire table and smashes it over their head. France is knocked out for several hours and when they finally wake up they’re slightly schizophrenic and crawl off into a corner to argue with themselves.

Outnumbered and alone England barricades itself behind the bar and begins tossing empty pint glasses at Germany, hoping the kids show up soon.

Germany and Italy begin sorting out the other tables and strut around the bar. In a corner booth Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania seeing what just happened, stand up and declare that Germany and Italy are their new best mates and buy them a round.

Across the street the United States is getting concerned about all the noise and broken windows and wants to go over and take a look, but the missus tells them to sit down and finish their dinner.

Shortly after dinner, United States hears a noise in the backyard and investigates just in time to see Japan smashing its tiki themed patio set in retaliation for suggesting they had too much to drink. United States is very upset at this and heads down to bar. Japan also eggs The Netherlands’ house and moons Australia as it heads back to pick on China some more.

Italy, while the Germans have their backs turned, decides to pick a fight with the Balkans Football Club which has been sitting in the corner. The BFC is a lot tougher then they look and offers Italy a few good smacks to the face. Italy quickly runs behind Germany and peeks out from behind their legs. Germany turns around with a “WTF!”

After sorting out the BFC with some help from its new bestest bud Romania and Hungary, Germany looks around the shambles of the room. England is yelling threats at them from behind the bar and Canada is behind them passing a fresh supply of empty bottles to toss.

Then another cry for help from Italy – they’ve decided to rifle the pockets of Egypt who passed out earlier in the children’s sandbox in the corner, but England sicked Australia, New Zealand and South Africa on them and they’re all smacking Italy about the kneecaps. Germany sighs and wonders where it can get some better allies.

As Germany makes its way to the sandbox, it makes eye contact with a stretching, knuckle cracking Japan, who gives a knowing nod. Japan puffs its chest and makes its way through the ocean of spilled beer to the United States, who’s standing there flat-footed, laughing hysterically, one hand slapping its knee. But USA looks up just in time to see Japan midswing with a big section of broken table. USA reels backwards into Germany, which is not amused and promises to get USA once it’s taken care of the sandbox. Japan, in the meantime, turns around and wails on poor Netherlands, cowering on the floor.

The Philippines meanwhile walks out the door, vowing to return. At the end of the bar, India, trying hard to mind its own business gets splashed with beer and starts to get up.

After dealing with the sandbox, Germany walks over to Russia hand outstretched in greeting. Russia takes it and get rewarded with Germany’s boot to the nads, and Finland, Hungary, Italy and Romania all pile on. Bloodied and dazed Russia backs off into the storeroom.

To distract Germany, England whispers something to Canada, who sneaks across the room and tries to smash a beer bottle on Germany’s head. The bottle fails to break and Germany turns around, grins and punches Canada in the nose. Holding their bloody nose Canada retreats, but keeps a supply of empty pint glasses flowing to Britain. Australia and New Zealand get an urgent call from their wives to come home because Japan is lurking in the garden, and they dash out. South Africa still pissed at England for making them take on both Italy and Germany and continues to sulk in the kid’s sandbox.

Germany goes looking for Russia in the storeroom to punch it some more, and notices the attractive walk-in freezer with hanging loops of sausage and schnitzel, not realizing Russia is hiding inside waiting with a frozen haunch of ham….. Germany otherwise occupied, Britain kicks sand in Italy’s face. With things getting a bit too quiet in the main bar, Britain and Canada start throwing pickled eggs at Germany’s back.

Germany and Russia, encouraged by their new buddies Romania, Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary, Finland and Ukraine, have started a serious game of Russian Roulette in the freezer, so Germany fails to hear Italy’s pitiful screams for help.

Italy, having decided that beating up on Ethiopia was training enough to punch at their own weight level, decided to take on Britain, but runs away after getting sodomized by their giant British boot.

Meanwhile, our friendly bartender Switzerland is still sitting there, watching this all unfold, dishtowel in one hand, drink in the other, ducking the occasional flying bottle/chairleg/billiard ball. Our other friendly bartender Sweden is still sitting there, watching, order pad in one hand, weapons licenses for sale in the other and selling brass knuckles to both sides.

USA, Canada and England now working together, piledrive Italy and knock them unconscious. Then, South Africa, New Zealand and Poland (who left to get a new set of trousers and just got back) all join together and rain blows and kicks and elbows on Germany until it can’t help but beg for mercy. Even Brazil from down the street jumps in as does France who appears to be fine again. Italy and Germany decide that enough’s enough and cry for surrender, with the bar now completely and utterly ruined.

Japan is still poking USA in the back. With a little help from some engineers patronizing the bar, USA heaves the piano over the second floor railing and it lands with deafening noise squarely on Japans head. From underneath a tiny white flag rises from rubble.

WX
06-04-2013, 09:22 PM
Regarding WW2 I thoroughly recommend reading The Second World War by Antony Beevor. I would have to say the most concise history of the war I have ever read.

Full Tilt
06-04-2013, 09:56 PM
Thanks for the blow by blow, Bob. Who wrote it?

Mike

Lew Barrett
06-05-2013, 01:57 AM
On Memorial Day I chose to watch "Beneath Hill 60." Hell of a film and does a very credible job of portraying life (and death) in the trenches as well as telling a remarkable story.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYOpCJCl5L4.

downthecreek
06-05-2013, 04:58 AM
Absurdly stupid when people say WWII was a continuation of WWI, IMO.

Well, a number of learned, serious, but, of course, absurdly stupid, historians, including Alistair Horne, have discussed that very proposition in some depth.

But what is really absurdly stupid is mindless dismissal of the whole idea out of hand without a nod to the need to unpick "continuation" or refer to the arguments that have been put forward by these well respected and, of course, absurdly stupid historians.

tizziec
06-05-2013, 05:23 AM
WWII is less a continuation of WWI as much as it is a result of the PEACE from WWI. In otherwords, cause/effect, not continuation

John Smith
06-05-2013, 05:35 AM
The only reason we had WWII was they didn't let Hitler into Art School. He got mad and showed um.

WWI was supposed to end all wars.

We are limited today to the history books written about those wars. When I see history I have lived through re-written, I have to wonder about any of the history we learn. All of it is written through someone's perspective.

There is some film on WWI, and in many respects it would be funny if all the death didn't make it so tragic. One piece of film was from a camera set between to trenches. Soldiers from opposing armies manned those trenches and shot at each other across a field that appeared to be my 50 yards wide. This went on for years. When the war ended, soldiers from both trenches walked toward each other and met in the middle. It looked like two teams saying "Nice war" to each other.

Then there was a path through mountains. One army would fight through it, killing on its way, but outrun its supply line. The opposing army would then push that army back through the pass, killing more people, and outrunning its supply line. The first army would then push through again, and outrun its supply line and get pushed back again until the other army again outran its supply line. During the war, the death total of this pass grew to some really big numbers, and both sides stopped as they had determined the path served no military purpose.

I think the most important thing we might take from WWII is that it was the last war that we actually declared.

tizziec
06-05-2013, 05:40 AM
The only reason we had WWII was they didn't let Hitler into Art School. He got mad and showed um.

WWI was supposed to end all wars.

We are limited today to the history books written about those wars. When I see history I have lived through re-written, I have to wonder about any of the history we learn. All of it is written through someone's perspective.

There is some film on WWI, and in many respects it would be funny if all the death didn't make it so tragic. One piece of film was from a camera set between to trenches. Soldiers from opposing armies manned those trenches and shot at each other across a field that appeared to be my 50 yards wide. This went on for years. When the war ended, soldiers from both trenches walked toward each other and met in the middle. It looked like two teams saying "Nice war" to each other.

Then there was a path through mountains. One army would fight through it, killing on its way, but outrun its supply line. The opposing army would then push that army back through the pass, killing more people, and outrunning its supply line. The first army would then push through again, and outrun its supply line and get pushed back again until the other army again outran its supply line. During the war, the death total of this pass grew to some really big numbers, and both sides stopped as they had determined the path served no military purpose.

I think the most important thing we might take from WWII is that it was the last war that we actually declared.

Read a book on that stalemate and until the second I read your post, I could remember everything about it LOL now it's gone!

AS for cause and effect, the biggest culprit was the "Guilt Clause" in the treaty of Versailles.. (Find in funny that even IN american, students don't seem to know the US didn't sign that) and the resulting clusterf*&k that was the German economy. Thank god lessons from that were learned when it came to peace negotiations after WWII!!!!

downthecreek
06-05-2013, 05:48 AM
WWII is less a continuation of WWI as much as it is a result of the PEACE from WWI. In otherwords, cause/effect, not continuation

Not in the longer view. I think this is an over simplification.

tizziec
06-05-2013, 05:53 AM
Not in the longer view. I think this is an over simplification.

Well, it is not hard to argue that had the treat of verssailles not been quite so revengeful in nature, the people of Germany would not havebeen so desperate for solutions to their plight that they would support the rise to power of hitler and his cronies. Jews, though never accepted, would not have become quite the scapegoats.

Of course it gets far more complicated, but in the end, it is usually the most simple answer no? At it's core, if not the key reason, at least the key tipping stone was the guilt clause and it's effect on the country...

BTW, did you know that it wasn't until the 1970s that germany repaid the US for damages from sabotage during the years of nuetrality?? Some very interesting legal wrangling there, and almost comically, more than a few trips to Brazil! (but no sightings of Hitler OR Elvis :) )

John Smith
06-05-2013, 06:04 AM
Just for the record, as soon as Hitler learned of my birth, he gave up and took his own life.

Putting all of this in context, it's interesting how people seem to forget or forgive very quickly. It wasn't all that long after WWII that VW beetles were all over our roads.

If there is one thing I wish we would learn from wars, it would be how to avoid them in the future.

So many people killed or wounded. So many buildings destroyed. So much money spent.

I'd like to think that humans, with the ability to reason, would look for ways to avoid this sort of thing.

tizziec
06-05-2013, 06:13 AM
Just for the record, as soon as Hitler learned of my birth, he gave up and took his own life.

Putting all of this in context, it's interesting how people seem to forget or forgive very quickly. It wasn't all that long after WWII that VW beetles were all over our roads.

If there is one thing I wish we would learn from wars, it would be how to avoid them in the future.

So many people killed or wounded. So many buildings destroyed. So much money spent.

I'd like to think that humans, with the ability to reason, would look for ways to avoid this sort of thing.


Ah, but we are human and our nature is split between the good and the bad. Unavoidable. Greed, power, politics are apparently very tempting to our week human nature.

But, as every Miss America knows... world peace is a wonderful heartfelt platform ;)

peb
06-05-2013, 09:09 AM
Well, a number of learned, serious, but, of course, absurdly stupid, historians, including Alistair Horne, have discussed that very proposition in some depth.

But what is really absurdly stupid is mindless dismissal of the whole idea out of hand without a nod to the need to unpick "continuation" or refer to the arguments that have been put forward by these well respected and, of course, absurdly stupid historians.

Yes, my absurdly stupid wording was much too strong. But I have read the arguments, over and over again, and I find them quite unconvincing. They all boil down to that the groundwork of WWII was laid by the WWI. That is obvious, but it is just as obvious in many, many other pairs of wars. And when considering the radically different government in Germany during WWII vs WWI, the radically different aims of the war by the Germans, the case for it becomes weaker and weaker. And then there is the completely different landscape of Central and Eastern Europe for WWII. If nothing else, there is the 20 year gap in time, which would always tend to differentiate two wars no matter what (ok, maybe the Spanish Reconquista might be a good exception, but all politics/wars happened on longer term basis when the clash was between civilizations and not countries).

Keith Wilson
06-05-2013, 09:20 AM
Some good points there, peb. You're probably right that saying anything stronger than 'the groundwork of WWII was laid by the WWI" is overreaching. The radically different government in Russia is another factor.

The bar fight, while amusing, gets one thing quite wrong. The Russians did the bulk of the ground fighting against Germany in Europe (with a lot of material help from the west) - most of the territory, most of the casualties, most of the civilian damage.

Lew Barrett
06-05-2013, 09:59 AM
Some good points there, peb. You're probably right that saying anything stronger than 'the groundwork of WWII was laid by the WWI" is overreaching. The radically different government in Russia is another factor.

The bar fight, while amusing, gets one thing quite wrong. The Russians did the bulk of the ground fighting against Germany in Europe (with a lot of material help from the west) - most of the territory, most of the casualties, most of the civilian damage.

And what laid the groundwork of WWI? The thing exists as a continuum. Germans read Hegel and argue him and have for two centuries.

Bob Cleek
06-05-2013, 12:51 PM
To me, one of the biggest differences between WWI and WWII (aside from the availability of newsreel footage, which leaves WWI with the short end of the stick on the History Channel) is that, to varying degrees from nation to nation, WWI was bedeviled by some of the stupidest commanders in the history of warfare. Perhaps that's a bit too harsh. Really, what happened was that the technology outpaced the training and experience of the commanders. Sending wave after wave of cannon fodder "over the top" into withering machine gun fire and hunkering down in trenches and lobbing artillery back and forth for months on end to no tactical purpose other than killing one another, all for "the glory of (insert your favorite country here)..."

My own aversion to military service was perhaps a result of that historical fact. It's one thing to "die for your country," but quite another to die because some idiot with a room temperature IQ orders you to go get killed!

bogdog
06-05-2013, 01:24 PM
Some good points there, peb. You're probably right that saying anything stronger than 'the groundwork of WWII was laid by the WWI" is overreaching. The radically different government in Russia is another factor.

The bar fight, while amusing, gets one thing quite wrong. The Russians did the bulk of the ground fighting against Germany in Europe (with a lot of material help from the west) - most of the territory, most of the casualties, most of the civilian damage.

The Russians only have themselves to blame for what they went through and they certainly extracted their revenge and then some at the end.

Lew Barrett
06-05-2013, 01:59 PM
The Russians only have themselves to blame for what they went through and they certainly extracted their revenge and then some at the end.

I don't get the sense that you and I will agree on much over time, but I could agree with you if you changed "The Russians" to "Stalin." Few of "the people" in Russia had much to say about the Draconian and incomprehensible behaviors of Stalin in making pacts with Hitler to divide Poland and be pals before Hitler broke the truce. The Russian people certainly "don't have themselves to blame" except to the extent that they were not prepared for their Revolution in any real sense of the word. What befell Germany after the Soviet conquest was terrible and the Germans paid the price, but they sewed the storm insofar as total war in Russia is concerned. Neither side willingly gave an inch, with the predictable outcome.

It's hard to defend Stalin at any time, and this shouldn't be construed as a defense of him but what befell the Germans, capped by the initial days of the occupation of Berlin (and German POWs throughout the conflict) was completely predictable, and largely predated by Nazi atrocities in Russia for those four terrible years. If you'd like to lay blame on the Russians, a great place to take a stand would be Stalin's betrayal of Warsaw.

The Bigfella
06-05-2013, 09:05 PM
My father was a PoW in Germany. His comment on the treatment of Russian PoWs by the Germans? "Poor bastards".

WX
06-05-2013, 10:02 PM
The German invasion of the USSR was accompanied by unimaginable brutality and cruelty. Stalin was almost as bad to his own people when the Red Army took back their country. Anyone who had so much as given a slice of bread to a German was either shot or exiled. When the Red Army crossed the German border it was payback on a horrific scale. The slaughter and rape may have been lessened if the Gauleiters of the eastern districts had allowed the civilian population to evacuate to the west earlier but they didn't.

Bob Cleek
06-05-2013, 10:02 PM
Thanks for the blow by blow, Bob. Who wrote it?

Mike



I have no idea. It's all over the internet. If you google "if WWI was a barfight" you get dozens of hits. I looked at a few, but not credited an author at all.

Full Tilt
06-05-2013, 10:17 PM
The Russians only have themselves to blame for what they went through and they certainly extracted their revenge and then some at the end.

Churchill let the Russians wear themselves down on the Germans before opening a second front, knowing the USSR would soon be adversaries.

Ron Williamson
06-06-2013, 06:11 AM
To me, one of the biggest differences between WWI and WWII (aside from the availability of newsreel footage, which leaves WWI with the short end of the stick on the History Channel) is that, to varying degrees from nation to nation, WWI was bedeviled by some of the stupidest commanders in the history of warfare. Perhaps that's a bit too harsh. Really, what happened was that the technology outpaced the training and experience of the commanders. Sending wave after wave of cannon fodder "over the top" into withering machine gun fire and hunkering down in trenches and lobbing artillery back and forth for months on end to no tactical purpose other than killing one another, all for "the glory of (insert your favorite country here)..."

My own aversion to military service was perhaps a result of that historical fact. It's one thing to "die for your country," but quite another to die because some idiot with a room temperature IQ orders you to go get killed!



During the Northwest Rebellion in 1885,the Canadian/British hired a Gatling gun and a Gatling employee,Lieutenant Howard, to use it against the 'rebels' led by Louis Riel and Gabriel Dumont.
In the account that I was reading,written in 1885,the author claimed that the Gatling gun was the future of warfare and that the General who knew how to use use it could save many soldiers lives.
During Ordinance testing they were shooting 1200 rounds per minute and penetrating a couple inches of spruce timber and a few inches of sand,at over a thousand yards.

In the thirty years between then and WW I,there were plenty of opportunities for improvement of training and tactics to deal with machine guns.

They just didn't do it.
R

bogdog
06-06-2013, 06:56 AM
I don't get the sense that you and I will agree on much over time, but I could agree with you if you changed "The Russians" to "Stalin." Few of "the people" in Russia had much to say about the Draconian and incomprehensible behaviors of Stalin in making pacts with Hitler to divide Poland and be pals before Hitler broke the truce. The Russian people certainly "don't have themselves to blame" except to the extent that they were not prepared for their Revolution in any real sense of the word. What befell Germany after the Soviet conquest was terrible and the Germans paid the price, but they sewed the storm insofar as total war in Russia is concerned. Neither side willingly gave an inch, with the predictable outcome.

It's hard to defend Stalin at any time, and this shouldn't be construed as a defense of him but what befell the Germans, capped by the initial days of the occupation of Berlin (and German POWs throughout the conflict) was completely predictable, and largely predated by Nazi atrocities in Russia for those four terrible years. If you'd like to lay blame on the Russians, a great place to take a stand would be Stalin's betrayal of Warsaw.

The behavior of the Russian troops towards every country they passed through on their way to Germany had nothing to do with Stalin.

Lew Barrett
06-06-2013, 04:01 PM
The Russians only have themselves to blame for what they went through and they certainly extracted their revenge and then some at the end.

I am not going to excuse Russian crimes, especially rape and looting in Germany but not excluding murder and torture in Germany and Hungary (nor the horrid events in the Katyn Forrest) but to be clear, most of the recaptured territories were Russian in the first place. Soviet troops occupied, more like marched through, a small section of Yugoslavia and their passage was feared by Tito's communist partisans, so there's an example. A number of rapes were recorded, and that seems bizarre and inexplicable given that Tito's partisans were nominally communists. But in the main, the path of the Russian Army took it back through the territories originally conquered by the Nazis. It's already been commented upon what Soviet policy was in re-captured areas so there's little point in going back over it.

The Soviet Army itself was a very hard bunch by the time they got to Germany and their officers did little to control them or provide discipline in this regard towards any Axis troops or civilian for that matter. Far better to be in the path of Allied troops, but of course, there's ample evidence of rape and thievery for all sides. Organized terror was the province of Stalin......and the Germans. Most of the rest suggests just how terrible warfare is for civilian populations, just as ever and why going to war should be....but hasn't usually been....taken with such serious intent by all our leaders. Wherever they went in Canaan, the Israelites put all to the sword who opposed them. It has not been much different since, and we have our own examples of what we do to people who we view as of no value to us. Wounded Knee, My Lai, and now Afghanastan.

Bark
06-12-2013, 03:28 PM
My middle name is Fielding, and vague family stories told of my Dad's uncle (Fielding V. Meek) having been a WWI medic who had been killed in France shortly before the armistice. I'm kind of a history buff but, strangely, I had never done any research on him until a year or so ago. Through a google search I discovered that he received the Distinguished Service Cross ( posthumously) for his actions. I have since located and visited his grave in a tiny town in Kentucky. Reading this thread has got me thinking that having a bronze plaque made of his award citation (below) might be a nice way of commemorating the centennial. His current grave marker notes his service, but provides no details about his death or the DSC. -Ben

The President of the United States of America, authorized by Act of Congress, July 9, 1918, takes pride in presenting the Distinguished Service Cross (Posthumously) to Private Fielding V. Meek (ASN: 794639), United States Army, for extraordinary heroism in action while serving with Medical Detachment, 11th Infantry Regiment (Attached), 5th Division, A.E.F., near Liny, France, 5 October 1918, Private Meek distinguished himself by his untiring efforts in administering first aid to the wounded never hesitating to expose himself to danger in searching for wounded on the field. While making his way through unusually heavy machine-gun fire to a wounded soldier, whom he had seen fall, Private Meeks was mortally wounded.