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Katherine
05-14-2013, 04:42 PM
Any one tried it? My boss has been on it for a week and already lost 10 lbs.

seanz
05-14-2013, 04:48 PM
Know anybody that cooks like a caveman?

TomF
05-14-2013, 04:49 PM
I'm on a version, though not desperately strict. There's stuff you miss, but it works. In effect, it's carb reduction - which for most of us is good.

It's especially good if you combine it with exercise. I lost some weight, and after slightly increasing my overall intake have stayed the same weight while changing body composition.

John of Phoenix
05-14-2013, 04:53 PM
...the healthiest diet that mimics the diets of our caveman ancestors, includes meats, seafood, vegetables, fruits, and nuts. No Twinkies. Sounds good.

AndyG
05-14-2013, 04:56 PM
We're not paleolithic humans.

A paleo diet would be great if we weren't agrarian humans: most of us carry the ability via (ta-da!) evolution to handle wheat and other processed foods unavailable to our ancestors. Granted, we binge on some stuff we shouldn't, but we'd be better off addressing the too-much salt/sugar elements of a typical modern diet than denying ourselves things we've got used to eating.

Andy

Paul Pless
05-14-2013, 05:02 PM
No Twinkies. Sounds good.no beer either. sounds bad. . .

John of Phoenix
05-14-2013, 05:04 PM
No beer? Let's not get carried away here.

seanz
05-14-2013, 05:07 PM
no beer either. sounds bad. . .

There's a damn good reason we became civilized and stayed that way.

John of Phoenix
05-14-2013, 05:10 PM
So where does one find a mastodon these days? I presume you should hunt and butcher it yourself to get the proper exercise.

katey
05-14-2013, 05:15 PM
I've been doing a version of this. No grains, no sugar. I eat a lot of fruits and vegetables and don't worry about the carbs within. It's done well for me; I lost 25 lbs between April and August last year, maintained over the (sedentary) winter, and now that I'm working outside, I'm losing weight again. As a bonus, my cholesterol is now in the normal range. (Note that this was accomplished by cutting CARBS; I eat all the bacon and cheese I want!) Alcohol itself is processed more like a fat than a carb (think about it...the carbs have been pre-digested during fermentation!) but beer, wine, and sweet liqueurs still have some carbs.

Figment
05-14-2013, 06:24 PM
Know anybody that cooks like a caveman?

www.paleonick.com

Gerarddm
05-14-2013, 07:01 PM
I dunno, running around in a fur loincloth with a fire-sharpened wood spear isn't my bag these days...

bogdog
05-14-2013, 08:48 PM
I finally knapped some good Clovis points but finding mastodons in the city has been a pain, apparently it's easier to find them a few miles offshore using a scallop dredge. We stick to a ​Mediterranean diet, haven't had a heart attack in 18 years.

LeeG
05-14-2013, 09:00 PM
I like croissants

coelacanth2
05-15-2013, 12:00 AM
If I could just get my wife to wear that fur bikini I bought her...
I have plenty of wild meat ( harvested with my scary black guns).
Problem is I like some of that civilized stuff too much - like chocolate.

Kaa
05-15-2013, 12:13 AM
Paleo is a... vague kind of diet.

Most everybody agrees that it excludes refined foods (notably including sugar) and grains. Mostly, that is :-) A frequent exception is made for rice.

Some people think it excludes dairy. Others think it's fine.

Some people think it's a low-carb diet. Others disagree and insist that you can eat high-carb paleo perfectly fine.

Usually paleo is a fairly high-fat diet (low-carb and high-fat mean the same thing), but not always.

There are also paleo extremists who won't eat, for example, potatoes because they are from the New World and humans developed in the Old World.

Generally speaking paleo is not a weight-loss diet. Still, people often lose weight when they start eating paleo, basically because they stop eating the usual crap. If you want rapid weight loss, straightforward ketosis works for many people (though, as usual, not for all).

Kaa

TomF
05-15-2013, 05:18 AM
Fair enough, Kaa. "Paleo" as a descriptor is something of a mnemonic gimmick. Try to eat roughly similar sources of your nutrients that you'd imagine a pre-agricultural hunter-gatherer person would have done. Which means excluding processed foods, simple sugars, and cultivated grains. It includes animal sources of protein (hunter), lots of vegetables and leafy greens, and a smaller proportion of fruit (gatherer). Yeah, for many it excludes potatoes and sweet potatoes, because they're concentrated starches.

Following that rubric, it does come down to fairly high protein/fat and fairly low carb. High in veggies - hence in "micronutrients" and fiber. Because it excludes simple sugars and concentrated starches, it tends to restrict calories (it's hard to over-eat on free-range broccoli) and prompt periodic ketosis. Also because of excluding simple sugars and concentrated starches it makes your pancreas work less, which after a little for many people results in more stable blood sugar levels (protein burns slower) and better sensitivity to the insulin which does get produced to metabolize the carbs which you do eat.

Personally, I didn't go so much for a Paleo diet as a Ketogenic one ... but they amount to much the same thing. And after an initial really strict period (in which I also consciously restricted calories), for my body size I've found it more useful to just think about getting 25-30g of protein at every meal, and just eating non-starchy veggies and salads 'till I'm full. And to try to "comply" with this about 4 meals out of 5.

tizziec
05-15-2013, 05:53 AM
I tried to give up carbs, after two weeks I sat down and scarfed two, TWO loaves of artisan bread.... ahhhhhh that was better :) LOL

I have found that any diet that calls for giving anything up completely is doomed.

The most weight I ever lost quickly came when I completely gave up soda 100% or any drink thathad comparable crap in it. Not so strict anymore but I rarely drink soda, stick to juice when I can or unsweetened iced tea, hell I live off the tea all summer!

Also, when out to dinner, I will order the sandwhich (smaller portion) without the bread and call it dinner :) It's the only way to get a healthy sized portion anymore.

When home cooking, I have learned to replace where I use butter in a frying pan with seasoned olive oil and maybe a single pat of butter for taste. I use reduced fat milk for my coffee and cereal, whole grains etc

It's far easier to create a healthy balanced diet that easily allows for moderation in the naughties than to try to give anything up (because when you fall to a craving you gain everything back, and then some LOL)

If the weather ever breaks, and drunk winter finally gets the hellza outa here, I will be able toadd exercise and ROWING!!! I NEED ROWING!!!!!!!!! :) Perhaps it will be the summer of the bikini? Who am I kidding.... Nope HAAAAAAA

Mrleft8
05-15-2013, 06:59 AM
So where does one find a mastodon these days? I presume you should hunt and butcher it yourself to get the proper exercise.

Jenny Craig.

TomF
05-15-2013, 08:55 AM
Coach Dan John argues that most of us have a tough time with long, sustained, incremental suffering with no end in sight. Whether that's respecting diet, or exercise, or pretty much whatever. In fact, he claims that the people he knows who've lost and kept off serious amounts of weight by losing the gradual few pounds/month recommended by dietitians etc. is ... zero. Because it's psychologically harder to stay with low grade pain forever than high grade pain for bursts.

He recommends that people organize their lives for 4-6 week intense "wars" on this or that front, perhaps 3 times/year ... lapsing into a "healthy" but much less painful holding pattern between. For instance, in exercise, Dan talks about spending most of the year doing "bus stop" workouts - the workouts which move you along, but don't take enormous amounts of focus or planning. Just pick a group of movements that cover the primary body motions (push, pull, squat, hinge, carry something heavy), but don't set horrifyingly ambitious goals other than showing up at the bus stop and doing them. But Dan says that we should punctuate that with a few very intense weeks focusing on a specific weakness in what you need to be able to do - cardio, or overhead pressing, or etc. - that you do while putting all the rest firmly into 2nd place. But really attack that goal - like, cut calories to 15% under your maintenance level. Increase bench press volume and intensity by half. Re-purpose 2-hours/day to bring your piano technical facility up a few notches. Attack it.

Same for diet. Try to eat healthily (in your understanding of that), in terms of your overall calorie intake, overall mix of nutrients. Treat that like the "bus stop" workouts ... that is, "show up" for fairly intelligent eating, but don't be obsessive. Except for a couple of short bursts in the year, when you choose that as the war you're fighting. At which point, become incredibly focused for a short period to jump your body composition, or your food choices, or something, into a different level. Then after a time-limited period, let yourself return to the "bus stop" dieting, where you keep enough discipline to get things done but don't kill yourself. Maybe you can carry over something from your all-out war as a new habit, if it doesn't kill you.

I've found this works for me psychologically. And it doesn't only work for diet, but for exercise, for work performance, for music, for interpersonal skills, etc. It means choosing specific goals and focusing enough to get some real, measurable improvement ... then stopping the hyper-focus before I burn out.

As Dan John says, pick only one war at a time. It's really hard to put on lots of muscle mass when also trying to cut fat. It's really hard to work to become a kinder, gentler human being while you're also walking around ravenous.

Figment
05-15-2013, 09:11 AM
Forrest Griffin (MMA guy) talks about that kind of periodization in this discussion...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PNbdnf9PME

I don't suggest that it's worth watching the whole hour, skip the first 40 minutes or so, he's not exactly a brilliant speaker. The fact that the guy goes from 235 to 205 and then back to 220 on a regular, disciplined basis while maintaining athletic capacity is pretty nuts.


It's really hard to work to become a kinder, gentler human being while you're also walking around ravenous.

Ergo, I stopped for a burrito on the way to dinner with the inlaws.
:D

Concordia 33
05-15-2013, 09:22 AM
no beer either. sounds bad. . .

But wine is low in carbs. A bad substitute, but better than nothing.

BrianW
05-15-2013, 09:32 AM
I go to work and lose weight, then regain it at home. ;)

Suppose to hit 110F Friday, and go up to 112F by next week. Good thing it's humid too. Otherwise it might be unbearable.

John of Phoenix
05-15-2013, 09:35 AM
Norman:
About the only 'trick' I've found useful, when I'm in the dieting phase, is a psychological one: I try to convince myself that the feeling of hunger is a good feeling, and it means that you're losing weight. I know, it's a bit lame... but for me, it tends to work.The brain is the WHOLE trick. Stick with this one.

Kaa
05-15-2013, 09:40 AM
"Paleo" as a descriptor is something of a mnemonic gimmick.

I'd call it an "ideological" diet :-) Or a WoE, a "way of eating", which is a better term than "diet". There is certainly a rational core in there which basically says that humans are animals evolved to eat certain foods and we really should keep that in mind when figuring out what to eat. There's also a lunatic fringe which refuses to eat anything out of the New World and rails against the horrors of "nightshades" (tomatoes, bell peppers, and the like).


I didn't go so much for a Paleo diet as a Ketogenic one ... but they amount to much the same thing.

I think I'll disagree with that. A ketogenic diet is very specific: you eat so little carbs that your body throws a biochemical switch and starts to burn a lot of fats for energy. It's easy to see if you're in ketosis: just pee on a strip (think they're called Ketostix) and you'll know. A paleo diet does not require ketosis and I'll make a guess that most people who think/say they eat paleo are *not* in ketosis.

Think about bodybuilders who chase down that last % of bodyfat -- they tend to go into ketosis by eating a great deal of protein powder out of a jar and that's not paleo by any stretch of imagination.

As a practical matter, ketosis is great for getting rid of pounds quickly. It's uncertain how sustainable it is long-term. Paleo won't give that fast a weight loss, but it's much more sustainable for the rest of your life.

Kaa

TomF
05-15-2013, 09:43 AM
No, Forest's not the best speaker in the world ... sounds like he's been hit in the head a few too many times. Other than the stark pant-wetting terror of being squashed like a bug in the ring, the creeping brain injury threat has been enough to keep me out. At least now that I'm an old and slow guy.

Really interesting comment there about training this or that capacity in periodized workouts though - "keep the car idling all the time, just don't feel like you always have to rev it." Very much like Dan John's notion of "bus stop" workouts.

Forest had a great line in there about hydration. How he always drinks enough just before a fight that he ends up coming into the ring feeling like he has to pee. "But it's a funny thing. As soon as someone starts trying hard to punch you in the face, you suddenly forget about needing to pee. Every time." :D

Figment
05-15-2013, 09:50 AM
Paleo won't give that fast a weight loss, but it's much more sustainable for the rest of your life.

Kaa


Any one tried it? My boss has been on it for a week and already lost 10 lbs.

Important distinction. We can reasonably postulate that K's boss dropped ten in a week because of the (presumably) drastic and mindful change of consumption, not necessarily because that change was to a paleo discipline.

This discussion is missing a key component, I think. COST.
Eating this way is not cheap.

TomF
05-15-2013, 09:52 AM
As a practical matter, ketosis is great for getting rid of pounds quickly. It's uncertain how sustainable it is long-term. Paleo won't give that fast a weight loss, but it's much more sustainable for the rest of your life.

KaaYeah yeah. I became a full-on Ketard through January and half of Feb., but relaxed things enough that I'm probably only rarely ketogenic since. But what's changed is a relaxation of the discipline, not an abandonment of it. Which I agree is more sustainable - more "bus stop" like.

"Bus stopping" has let me hold onto the weight loss from the Ketard time, while slowly improving my body composition at the same weight in the months since. I'm thinking that my next "war" should probably be to increase endurance in a range that would help my martial arts work - so probably nasty interval training through June, maybe with the heavy bag and kettlebells or barbell complexes.

Anything but long slow running - ugh. :D

Kaa
05-15-2013, 10:03 AM
Important distinction. We can reasonably postulate that K's boss dropped ten in a week because of the (presumably) drastic and mindful change of consumption, not necessarily because that change was to a paleo discipline.

If Kat's boss went low-carb, he lost a lot of water weight very quickly. But that's just water weight, when he starts eating carbs again it'll come back.


This discussion is missing a key component, I think. COST.
Eating this way is not cheap.

I strongly disagree. I think it's cheaper than eating out of boxes and cans (well, unless most of your calories come from pasta). You don't have to buy organic food carefully tended by artisan monks. If you buy and eat conventional meat, conventional fruit & veggies, conventional fish & berries -- you'd be perfectly fine, much better than if you were to subsist on Hamburger Helper and such.

Kaa

Gerarddm
05-15-2013, 10:05 AM
Zone Diet:

Every meal, combine protein, low glycemic carbs, monunsaturated fats. Graze during the day, not just three bomber meals. Hydrate more.

And: avoid wheat where possible. No GMOs where possible. No phytotoxins, high fructose corn syrup, etc.

Works for me.

Kaa
05-15-2013, 10:10 AM
Yeah yeah. I became a full-on Ketard through January and half of Feb., but relaxed things enough that I'm probably only rarely ketogenic since. But what's changed is a relaxation of the discipline, not an abandonment of it. Which I agree is more sustainable - more "bus stop" like.

Well, in my understanding ketosis is a well-defined state -- you're either in it or you're not in it. If you're not, that's not "relaxation", you're just not in ketosis. Yeah, there is intermittent ketosis, but it has more to do with IF anyway.

If you read low-carb blogs and forums, it will rapidly become clear that while some (not many) people do fine being in ketosis for a long time, many people "burn out" on ketosis (not psychologically, but biochemically) in a few months time. Adding some carbs back fixes most of their problems.


Anything but long slow running - ugh. :D

Yeah... Don't think it does that much good (certainly better than no exercise, of course) and unless you run on soft surfaces it'll kill your joints.

Kaa

TomF
05-15-2013, 10:22 AM
I strongly disagree. I think it's cheaper than eating out of boxes and cans (well, unless most of your calories come from pasta). You don't have to buy organic food carefully tended by artisan monks. If you buy and eat conventional meat, conventional fruit & veggies, conventional fish & berries -- you'd be perfectly fine, much better than if you were to subsist on Hamburger Helper and such.

KaaWhere do you shop, Kaa?

Where I live, there's no comparison at all between the prices of fruits/veggies/animal source proteins and quite ordinary bread, pasta, and potatoes. Carbs are damned cheap, while produce and protein are pretty pricey. We fed 6 adults/teens this way all Winter ... a couple of nights/week the table usually grew to 8-9. It was a financial education. :D

And no, we hardly ever ate Kobe beef massaged daily by their keepers, or squash and snap beans harvested only by virgins at the right phase of the moon. :D

Mrleft8
05-15-2013, 10:37 AM
Shopping wisely and being sensible about portion size will help your food bill more than buying mass produced corporo-fiber will. You don't need to buy the 4Lb. vacuum packed steak just because it's there, and costs $.90/Lb. less than the 1 1/2Lb. fresh steak down the street.
Most of the loaves of bread that Carter buys for 2-4 slices, go green or rock hard before they get consumed...... Yeah, they cost $1.98 for the whole loaf! But she could have bought 2 sandwich rolls for $.60.....
I try to buy what we're going to eat in the next day or so, not "in bulk" because the bulk of the bulk is just that...... Bulk......

Kaa
05-15-2013, 10:48 AM
Where do you shop, Kaa?

My proteins usually come from a standard supermarket. Chicken is about $1-1.50/lb, pork is about $2/lb, beef is about $3-4/lb. Large packs, of course, and not filet mignon :-)

My fruits and veggies come from a Korean grocery (a Hispanic grocery is a good alternative). A *lot* of choice, most stuff is under $1/lb, almost everything is under $2/lb.

I don't buy or eat organic.

Yes, starch is cheaper. But most people (other than graduate students) don't actually live on pasta and potatoes. Most people buy a lot of stuff in boxes and jars from the middle area of the supermarket. It's predominantly starch, sugar, salt, hydrogenated oils, the usual. But it's simple and "tasty". And more expensive than buying fresh fruit and veggies.

Kaa

beernd
05-15-2013, 10:53 AM
If Kat's boss went low-carb, he lost a lot of water weight very quickly. But that's just water weight, when he starts eating carbs again it'll come back.



I strongly disagree. I think it's cheaper than eating out of boxes and cans (well, unless most of your calories come from pasta). You don't have to buy organic food carefully tended by artisan monks. If you buy and eat conventional meat, conventional fruit & veggies, conventional fish & berries -- you'd be perfectly fine, much better than if you were to subsist on Hamburger Helper and such.

Kaa

I think you nailed it.
For me there are two categories of food,
1) the stuff that comes all prepared and packed in a box or wharever
2) the stuff you buy and have to prepare yourself

The processed stuff is composed in such a way that you want more and more of it.

Paul Pless
05-15-2013, 11:52 AM
Having won and lost numerous times on the 'weight game', I still feel very strongly that the chief barrier to weight loss is psychological.I think the primary barrier to weight loss is approximately 50,000 years of evolutionary biology at play. . .

Paul Pless
05-15-2013, 11:53 AM
Eating this way is not cheap.no beer would offset the costs associated with buying mastodon burgers for me. . .

Kaa
05-15-2013, 11:59 AM
I think the primary barrier to weight loss is approximately 50,000 years of evolutionary biology at play. . .

Not really. Compare the rates of obesity now and a hundred years ago. Same "evolutionary biology". And no, adjusting for the people who were truly so poor they couldn't afford enough calories doesn't help that comparison much.

Kaa

bogdog
05-15-2013, 11:59 AM
When I went on my diet years ago, I made a total break from my previous diet. I never cheated, not once. After a while my tastes changed and now if I was required to eat something like a beef steak or french fries I suspect I would find the experience more than somewhat unpalatable. But I didn't go on a "diet" I changed my diet permanently. I even found a number of local restaurants who modify their recipes for me when we eat out.

I take my asparagus steamed or grilled with a whisper of olive oil, no salt please.

Mrleft8
05-15-2013, 12:19 PM
I know how Katherine could lose about 280Lbs. in a heartbeat...... :D ;)

TomF
05-15-2013, 12:28 PM
I know how Katherine could lose about 280Lbs. in a heartbeat...... :D ;)Whose heartbeat?

Mrleft8
05-15-2013, 12:49 PM
Whose heartbeat?

Not mine.... My heart would have been crushed long ago trying to haul that amount of lard around all day..... :D