PDA

View Full Version : BLASPHEMY!!!!!! Throw the scoundrel out!



GregH
04-26-2013, 09:43 AM
I'm in shock, I tell you! I was watching the Today show this morning, and as part of a segment, they interviewed the gov of Massachusetts. He actually said - hold onto your hats - and you ready for this?- he said, "Not everyone needs to go to college"!!!!!!!!!! I wonder what he will be doing for a job tomorrow?! Can you imagine, a public figure actually saying something so un-American???


He really did say that- it was part of story on a Vocational High School in his state. This school is an alternative to the traditional high school- it actually teaches it's students skills that lead to well-paying jobs immediately upon graduation! Their employment rate upon graduation is 100%, with an average starting salary of $45,000/ year. It's specialty is CAD, CAM and CNC machining. (Actually, the vocational high school is not a new concept at all- it has been around since the early 1900's. Unfortunately, over the years, it's demise has taken place due to the "highly enlightened" idea that no one will amount to anything unless they have 4-year college diploma, and certainly anyone who is anyone would NEVER think of taking a job in which they might get their hands dirty.)

This story really hit home to me (although for me, it was also "preaching to the choir"). I spent 35 wonderful years teaching those very subjects at a community college in the Chicago area. Many of my students were "normal" high school grads who knew that they could get a well-paying job if they acquired the knowledge and skills needed to operate modern industrial machine tools such as lathes, mills, grinders, etc. I also had quite a few students who confided to me that they had, in fact, already graduated from college, but were unable to find employment. For the most part, they had followed their high school counselor's sage advice that "Everyone MUST go to college to earn a B.A. or B.S. in business, or social science, or some other vague, non-descript field. This, of course relates directly to the one and only statistic that high school counselors and administers care about- the percentage of their students that enter college upon graduation.

Although I commend NBC for airing such a "spot-on" segment, I now do worry that the FCC will yank their broadcasting license for sending over the airwaves such blasphemous information!

Gerarddm
04-26-2013, 09:51 AM
Too many exclamation points.

Newsflash: not everyone needs to go to business school, either.

Germany has built a fine economy on the back of intensive trade school training. Works fine.

YMMV.

S.V. Airlie
04-26-2013, 10:03 AM
Umm, cops don't need to go to college. They attend the Police Academy which isn't college. Granted more do now than in the past.

Peach
04-26-2013, 10:05 AM
I believe GregH is being facetious here.

But in truth, college isn't a sure path to success, and there are many well-paying trades that require skills not taught in college.

John of Phoenix
04-26-2013, 10:09 AM
As manufacturing gradually returns to the US, there should be an even greater demand for VoTech schools.

Kaa
04-26-2013, 08:08 PM
As manufacturing gradually returns to the US, there should be an even greater demand for VoTech schools.

The manufacturing that returns to the US requires robotics engineers, not assembly-line grunts...

Kaa

hokiefan
04-26-2013, 08:13 PM
The manufacturing that returns to the US requires robotics engineers, not assembly-line grunts...

Kaa

Not all of it. US chemical manufacturing is on the rise as well.

Cheers,

Bobby

Meli
04-26-2013, 08:15 PM
Umm, cops don't need to go to college. They attend the Police Academy which isn't college. Granted more do now than in the past.

Police academy? Wasnt that a comedy?

Kaa
04-26-2013, 08:18 PM
Not all of it. US chemical manufacturing is on the rise as well.

Still doesn't require assembly-line grunts :-/

Besides, I bet the current rise is fueled by the cheap feedstock from the shale gas. I also think the major limits on chemical manufacturing in the US are environmental regulations.

Kaa

hokiefan
04-26-2013, 08:20 PM
Still doesn't require assembly-line grunts :-/

Besides, I bet the current rise is fueled by the cheap feedstock from the shale gas. I also think the major limits on chemical manufacturing in the US are environmental regulations.

Kaa

Shows how much you know.:d Most operators are high school grads, trained by the company after hire.

Cheers,

Bobby

Canoez
04-26-2013, 08:23 PM
Kaa - even in facilities with robotics, you still need some
"grunts" for material handling, set-up, change-over, maintenance and repair. There are also record-keepers, programmers, quality control, purchasing, engineers of various sorts etc. Very, very few operations lend themselves to "lights-out" factories due to process reliability, equipment reliability and the ability to have different processes run at the same rates without in-process accumulation or storage. Folks from a good tech school can do most of these things or go on to a bit of higher education later in life if it becomes necessary.

At the place I work now, we're more like high tech watchmakers building one or a small number of things at a time, and folks from Voke-tech environments are critical to what we do. Then again, we also have a saying : "To really screw up a project takes a PhD".

Kaa
04-26-2013, 08:25 PM
Shows how much you know.:d Most operators are high school grads, trained by the company after hire.

Hm. :-)

Looking at employment... getting a tiny bit better at the moment, don't know if I would bet on trend, though...

Employment in chemical manufacturing:

http://data.bls.gov/generated_files/graphics/latest_numbers_CES3232500001_2003_2013_all_period_ M03_data.gif
(http://data.bls.gov/timeseries/CES3232500001?data_tool=XGtable)

Kaa

Kaa
04-26-2013, 08:30 PM
Kaa - even in facilities with robotics, you still need some
"grunts" for material handling, set-up, change-over, maintenance and repair. There are also record-keepers, programmers, quality control, purchasing, engineers of various sorts etc. Very, very few operations lend themselves to "lights-out" factories due to process reliability, equipment reliability and the ability to have different processes run at the same rates without in-process accumulation or storage. Folks from a good tech school can do most of these things or go on to a bit of higher education later in life if it becomes necessary.

Sure you do. We're not that close to fully automated factories. But the point is that you need LESS of these "grunts" than before. And specifically with respect to manufacturing "coming back", there's a bias. Labor-intensive manufacturing will not come back, but capital-intensive, with expensive machinery and not that many workers, might. Bit early to tell how will it all play out, anyway.


"To really screw up a project takes a PhD".

Nah, all you need is a computer :-D

Kaa

Canoez
04-26-2013, 08:49 PM
Sure you do. We're not that close to fully automated factories. But the point is that you need LESS of these "grunts" than before. And specifically with respect to manufacturing "coming back", there's a bias. Labor-intensive manufacturing will not come back, but capital-intensive, with expensive machinery and not that many workers, might. Bit early to tell how will it all play out, anyway.

Kaa

When I was last working in a facility that was mass producing consumer goods, when we automated processes, we didn't eliminate workers. We did increase production rates, product quality and consistency. The employees re-trained to manage the new equipment or to move on to other jobs in the company that had previously been neglected. So, if you're saying you can do more with less, I agree, but, it doesn't necessarily mean fewer employees.

Kaa
04-26-2013, 08:56 PM
When I was last working in a facility that was mass producing consumer goods, when we automated processes, we didn't eliminate workers. We did increase production rates, product quality and consistency. The employees re-trained to manage the new equipment or to move on to other jobs in the company that had previously been neglected. So, if you're saying you can do more with less, I agree, but, it doesn't necessarily mean fewer employees.

That works as long as the economy grows fast enough. Unfortunately, the US growth has been very anemic and no one expect it to speed up in the near future.

Kaa

S.V. Airlie
04-26-2013, 09:32 PM
Police academy? Wasnt that a comedy?Ask Phillip.

hokiefan
04-26-2013, 09:33 PM
When I was last working in a facility that was mass producing consumer goods, when we automated processes, we didn't eliminate workers. We did increase production rates, product quality and consistency. The employees re-trained to manage the new equipment or to move on to other jobs in the company that had previously been neglected. So, if you're saying you can do more with less, I agree, but, it doesn't necessarily mean fewer employees.


That works as long as the economy grows fast enough. Unfortunately, the US growth has been very anemic and no one expect it to speed up in the near future.

Kaa

What happens is that some other facility that doesn't update fast enough gets shut down. Have been party to three other competitor plants being shut down over the years. Its good to be on the winning end of that, but sucks for the other folks.

Bobby

DanSkorupka
04-27-2013, 08:12 AM
I took a 9 week night school course in machining when I was 17.
If not for numerous absences causing me to miss out on important ancillary skills and techniques I would have left there as a competent machinist.

hightop
04-27-2013, 08:57 AM
Way too many young people going to college and saddling themselves with debt. The percentage of jobs requiring a college degree hasn't grown appreciably in the last few decades, and will probably decline, due to offshoring of non-manufacturing jobs, yet still "everyone should go to college" is trumpeted. I think this is part of the policy of encouraging American optimism and denial.

Ask the average US citizen what the best country in the world is and they will invariably say, "USA", in spite of overwhelming evidence and statistics to the contrary.

I think that some of the trade schools, etc. may also be training students more for tuition $'s than to teach a viable trade with a demand for employees in the trade, putting more debt on the student he or she doesn't need.

One thing about a college degree though, when hiring a new landscaper, waiter, laborer etc., I imagine the prospective employer may hire the college grad over the HS graduate or drop-out, if all other things about the employees are equal.

Peach
04-27-2013, 09:16 AM
One thing about a college degree though, when hiring a new landscaper, waiter, laborer etc., I imagine the prospective employer may hire the college grad over the HS graduate or drop-out, if all other things about the employees are equal.


Yes, the degree in hand does improve the chances of getting hired, even if the job is not related to the degree.

I have never worked in the field I degreed in. Most of my work experience has been in a trade I learned at a tech school prior to going to college. The skilled labor jobs I've had have always paid way more than any job I could have landed with a BS degree.

Being able to check the "college grad" box on a job application usually helps.

Keith Wilson
04-27-2013, 09:21 AM
Would it be absurdly idealistic to suggest that going to college to learn about history, culture and ideas, things that make one a better human being and a better citizen of a democracy, could be a Good Thing?

Nah, sorry, way too aniquated. Its all about making more money.

hightop
04-27-2013, 09:26 AM
Would it be absurdly idealistic to suggest that going to college to learn about history, culture and ideas, things that make one a better human being and a better citizen of a democracy, could be a Good Thing?

Nah, sorry, way too aniquated. Its all about making more money.
Yes, unless it's free. Besides, those things are theoretically supposed to be touched on in grade, middle and high school, an elitist idea that they can only be learned and appreciated by a "college man"

Peach
04-27-2013, 09:27 AM
Would it be absurdly idealistic to suggest that going to college to learn about history, culture and ideas, things that make one a better human being and a better citizen of a democracy, could be a Good Thing?

There are certainly huge numbers of college grads out there who apparently missed those lectures.

Keith Wilson
04-27-2013, 09:31 AM
Oh, of course. I spent a fair amount of time in college studying sex ed and recreational pharmacology, myself. Sometimes college isn't of much value. I didn't say it always worked, merely that it's a benefit which nobody had mentioned.