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View Full Version : Move along, move along, nothing to see here, just an inconvience



Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 07:51 AM
no one's at fault

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1&fb_source=message#.UXkkXILJK_W

sorry, should have been 'inconvenience'... much worse crime I suppose

Meli
04-25-2013, 07:53 AM
Bloody idiots with guns.

John Smith
04-25-2013, 07:57 AM
Good job he had a gun to defend himself with.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:01 AM
Good job he had a gun to defend himself with.

in that sense it certainly WAS a home invasion... the victim needed a full 'automatic something' to defend himself... it was his only chance I think

Meli
04-25-2013, 08:03 AM
Sad but pretty hard to see what else the cops could have done.
idiots with guns.

Meli
04-25-2013, 08:05 AM
in that sense it certainly WAS a home invasion... the victim needed a full 'automatic something' to defend himself... it was his only chance I think

Philip. You are nuts.
love meli

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:06 AM
Philip. You are nuts.
love meli

is that a poison pen post? :)

Garret
04-25-2013, 08:06 AM
This is a tough one.

Would the police have fired if the homeowner hadn't? A case might be made that if the homeowner never used a gun he might be alive. We'll never know.

Obviously there's not a lot of info - but if I were a cop coming into a house & got fired at with a shotgun, I'm pretty likely to shoot back.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:09 AM
This is a tough one.

Would the police have fired if the homeowner hadn't? A case might be made that if the homeowner never used a gun he might be alive. We'll never know.

Obviously there's not a lot of info - but if I were a cop coming into a house & got fired at with a shotgun, I'm pretty likely to shoot back.

suppose a cop had died and the home owner hadn't... would the home owner have been given a paid vacation? (a serious question)

John Smith
04-25-2013, 08:11 AM
in that sense it certainly WAS a home invasion... the victim needed a full 'automatic something' to defend himself... it was his only chance I think

If it had been a home invasion and the invaders were well armed, they guy would most likely still be dead, the wife dead, and the bad guys would have another gun to add to their arsenal.

If he had not grabbed a gun, police or private invaders may not have killed anyone. We can't KNOW, but it's possible. Having a gun to defend himself got him killed.

John Smith
04-25-2013, 08:13 AM
suppose a cop had died and the home owner hadn't... would the home owner have been given a paid vacation? (a serious question)

That, I suspect, would depend on whether or not the cops identified themselves, which they did, whether they did or not.

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 08:13 AM
(a serious question)let's see, hmmm. . .

what's an appropriate answer to a 'serious question' from Phillip Allen, the man who neatly dodges practically every ******* question asked of him???

how 'bout this?

FART!

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:14 AM
If it had been a home invasion and the invaders were well armed, they guy would most likely still be dead, the wife dead, and the bad guys would have another gun to add to their arsenal.

If he had not grabbed a gun, police or private invaders may not have killed anyone. We can't KNOW, but it's possible. Having a gun to defend himself got him killed.

'we' can't know is true... it is possible is true... now how about probability?

it seems you have already made up your mind that any attempt to defend one's self is wrong... interesting

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:17 AM
That, I suspect, would depend on whether or not the cops identified themselves, which they did, whether they did or not.

did they check to see if their 'target' had his hearing aid in? (point being is that the cops obviously did a poor job (if any) of identifying themsleves)... it is even possible that they lied to cover their 'mkistake' I even consider that 'probability' to be significant

Iceboy
04-25-2013, 08:18 AM
Well, a man died in his own home because of some bureaucrats mistake. Think you will see any backlash against the bureaucrat? I think at the very least he/she should be charged with criminal negligence to begin with and maybe as party to a homicide.
As an aside, this story is over ten years old.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:24 AM
Well, a man died in his own home because of some bureaucrats mistake. Think you will see any backlash against the bureaucrat? I think at the very least he/she should be charged with criminal negligence to begin with and maybe as party to a homicide.
As an aside, this story is over ten years old.

ten years old? then statistacs about gun death that are ten years old are 'not admisable' or did you have something else in mind?
I don't know how to do it but a study of that department's 'changes' in it's policies concerning the serving of warrants and the like would be worth knowing about.

BTW, a 'mistake' llike that might garner a charge of involentary manslaughter

Mrleft8
04-25-2013, 08:27 AM
suppose a cop had died and the home owner hadn't... would the home owner have been given a paid vacation? (a serious question)

I guess that depends on whether he had a job with benefits....

Meli
04-25-2013, 08:28 AM
philip?
what exactly is your problem with cops?
sure, there are bad corrupt cops, there are stupid incompetent cops.

but cops in general? Every day those same cops, good bad or indifferent put their lives on the line.
could you go to work every morning and deal with what they deal with?

They are public servants.
If you want better cops. Pay more tax so they can be better trained. Pay more tax to get better salaries to attact smarter people. Pay more tax to fix some of your social ills.
if you will agree to that, then you can bitch about " bad cops"

Put up or shut up as it were

LeeG
04-25-2013, 08:29 AM
It's been seven years!

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:31 AM
philip?
what exactly is your problem with cops?
sure, there are bad corrupt cops, there are stupid incompetent cops.

but cops in general? Every day those same cops, good bad or indifferent put their lives on the line.
could you go to work every morning and deal with what they deal with?

They are public servants.
If you want better cops. Pay more tax so they can be better trained. Pay more tax to get better salaries to attact smarter people. Pay more tax to fix some of your social ills.
if you will agree to that, then you can bitch about " bad cops"

Put up or shut up as it were

I strive to be egalitarian... the same rules apply to ALL.

hokiefan
04-25-2013, 08:32 AM
I strive to be egalitarian... the same rules apply to ALL.

Yet you fail... often miserably

S.V. Airlie
04-25-2013, 08:32 AM
Since my last confession....

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 08:34 AM
I strive to be egalitarian... strive harder

Meli
04-25-2013, 08:38 AM
I strive to be egalitarian... the same rules apply to ALL.

how noble.
so when we are all part of an armed militia, we will achieve true equality to shoot and shoot back?

ah hah.
you are nuts

love meli
xx

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 08:39 AM
Meli, when we are all part of a militia, there will no longer be a need for cops, part of the libertarian fantasy. . .

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:41 AM
Yet you fail... often miserably

should I quit then?

Meli
04-25-2013, 08:41 AM
too many Heinlein sci fi books rot the brain :D

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:42 AM
too many Heinlein sci fi books rot the brain :D

never heard of her

hokiefan
04-25-2013, 08:43 AM
should I quit then?

No. Just take a big step back and think about why so many people think you are blinded by your bias.

LeeG
04-25-2013, 08:44 AM
never heard of her

Google Heinlein

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:44 AM
No. Just take a big step back and think about why so many people think you are blinded by your bias.

what makes you think I haven't?

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 08:44 AM
should I quit then?you should quit being a troll and come back to the forum as willing participant in open and honest discussion

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:45 AM
Google Heinlein

not interested... I don't read much of that stuff (though I have done)

S.V. Airlie
04-25-2013, 08:45 AM
Google Ish!:)

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 08:46 AM
never heard of herStart with The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:46 AM
you should quit being a troll and come back to the forum as willing participant in open and honest discussion

I've already done that... you just chose not to believe me for your own reasons

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:47 AM
this thread has derailed... predictable I guess

HOw did that happen, Paul?

LeeG
04-25-2013, 08:49 AM
not interested... I don't read much of that stuff (though I have done)

Awwww

Meli
04-25-2013, 08:49 AM
Start with The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.

I liked his kids books like "have spacesuite will travel" but the survivalist stuff was crap.

hokiefan
04-25-2013, 08:49 AM
what makes you think I haven't?

If you have it hasn't showed up yet. I'll keep paying attention ...

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:50 AM
I liked his kids books like "have spacesuite will travel" but the survivalist stuff was crap.

I have read Hitchhikers Guide...

Joe (SoCal)
04-25-2013, 08:50 AM
I'd like to second that.... but I'm not holding out much hope.

I'll just reiterate Pauls astute observation

​FART :D

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 08:51 AM
I've already done that... you just chose not to believe me for your own reasons

I'll believe you when you are able to answer questions directed at you, without flinging a two or three word partisan flippant remark back every single time, thus far I've seen no evidence that you are not a troll. You can have differences of opinion with folks and still be part of our 'little online community' but to continually disparage others or their positions for having a different opinion sets you outside the 'community' and sets you up to chastised - and rightly so - you have placed yourself in the same category as the dutches of the bilge, no one has done this to you. 'Dialogue' is a two way street, Phillip.

Meli
04-25-2013, 08:52 AM
I have read Hitchhikers Guide...

probably better . Heinlein is ok for kids but palls a little as one matures. babble fish much betterer.
:D

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:53 AM
I'll believe you when you are able to answer questions directed at you, without flinging a two or three word partisan flippant remark back every single time, thus far I've seen no evidence that you are not a troll. You can have differences of opinion with folks and still be part of our 'little online community' but to continually disparage others or their positions for having a different opinion sets you outside the 'community' and sets you up to chastised - and rightly so - you have placed yourself in the same category as the dutches of the bilge, no one has done this to you. 'Dialogue' is a two way street, Phillip.

I'll consider that

hokiefan
04-25-2013, 08:54 AM
you should quit being a troll and come back to the forum as willing participant in open and honest discussion


I've already done that... you just chose not to believe me for your own reasons

When you actually answer a question then you are an open and honest participant. Not a moment before...

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:54 AM
probably better . Heinlein is ok for kids but palls a little as one matures. babble fish much betterer.
:D

it was the BBC radio production that got me started on that... what fun!

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:57 AM
When you actually answer a question then you are an open and honest participant. Not a moment before...


most of those questions come across as aggressive interrogation... easy to resist as it is a standard response to 'in-your-face' aggression

hokiefan
04-25-2013, 09:00 AM
most of those questions come across as aggressive interrogation... easy to resist as it is a standard response to 'in-your-face' aggression

You routinely request answers to your questions. Yet won't answer similar questions. You get what you give.

Not like this is the first time we've had this discussion.

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 09:01 AM
Heinlein is ok for kids but palls a little as one matures.

Red Planet
Starship Troopers
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Stranger in a Strange Land
Time Enough for Love
Friday
The Cat who Walks through Walls

Are all classics which transcend age groups. I disagree with much of Heinlein's politics, but that doesn't mean the books aren't enjoyable, nor that they haven't helped form my own political opinions. And, some of his political insight is very sharp indeed.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 09:03 AM
You routinely request answers to your questions. Yet won't answer similar questions. You get what you give.

Not like this is the first time we've had this discussion.

time will tell, I suppose


in the mean time, are there any more responses to the op?

Joe (SoCal)
04-25-2013, 09:06 AM
I'll believe you when you are able to answer questions directed at you, without flinging a two or three word partisan flippant remark back every single time, thus far I've seen no evidence that you are not a troll. You can have differences of opinion with folks and still be part of our 'little online community' but to continually disparage others or their positions for having a different opinion sets you outside the 'community' and sets you up to chastised - and rightly so - you have placed yourself in the same category as the dutches of the bilge, no one has done this to you. 'Dialogue' is a two way street, Phillip.

Absolutely, I would like to add Pless has led by example on this matter. His openness to have NORMAL constructive dialog with those he may be on the oposite political or different ideological path like myself or <gasp> Norman ;) is always met with a sincere and non flippant remark every single time Along with his Pr0n VS PA's Cop / Gun National Enquirer threads makes him the polar opposite of "Awww Shucks".

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 09:07 AM
I realize that the invading colps must have found themselves in a tough position... the exact same applies to the home owner... I have no idea what should happen except perhkaps something similar to auto insurance when we have accidents deemed to be our own fault.

the home owner is certainly not at fault... it was not him who went to a policeman's house but the other way around.

I'd guess we're back to the clerk ... was he charged? Was ANYONE charged?

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 09:08 AM
Absolutely, I would like to add Pless has led by example on this matter. His openness to have NORMAL constructive dialog with those he may be on the oposite political or different ideological path like myself or <gasp> Norman ;) is always met with a sincere and non flippant remark every single time Along with his Pr0n VS PA's Cop / Gun National Enquirer threads makes him the polar opposite of "Awww Shucks".

to which I follow Paul's lead, Joe... FART (since you admire his lead, you must approve)

Mrleft8
04-25-2013, 09:09 AM
time will tell, I suppose


in the mean time, are there any more responses to the op?
Gardenias have a potent, sometimes offensively sweet odor. Sometimes when the Moonflowers are blooming and the Nicotania are blooming at the same time they smell like Gardenias far far away.
Besides, Grilled chicken is best served right away with a cold pasta salad, and cucumber spears drizzled with a balsamic vinaigrette.

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 09:11 AM
Absolutely, I would like to add Pless has led by example on this matter. His openness to have NORMAL constructive dialog with those he may be on the oposite political or different ideological path like myself or <gasp> Norman ;) is always met with a sincere and non flippant remark every single time Along with his Pr0n VS PA's Cop / Gun National Enquirer threads makes him the polar opposite of "Awww Shucks".

To be fair, I make a bunch of jack ass posts too. Just not every single post. And if someone asks me a direct question I try to answer it honestly.

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 09:12 AM
So, you were able to watch 'Starship Troopers' and not turn into a fascist? :)the movie Starship Troopers belongs in the worst movie thread, and bears little in common with the quite well done novel. . .

Meli
04-25-2013, 09:13 AM
Red Planet
Starship Troopers
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Stranger in a Strange Land
Time Enough for Love
Friday
The Cat who Walks through Walls

Are all classics which transcend age groups. I disagree with much of Heinlein's politics, but that doesn't mean the books aren't enjoyable, nor that they haven't helped form my own political opinions. And, some of his political insight is very sharp indeed.
Well i suppose it's a girl thing :D

pumpkin time

night

hokiefan
04-25-2013, 09:15 AM
To be fair, I make a bunch of jack ass posts too. Just not every single post. And if someone asks me a direct question I try to answer it honestly.

Thank you Paul. At this point JCSOH is just piling on. Phillip has indicated he may consider how he deals with things, I think we should give him the chance to do so. My $0.02

Garret
04-25-2013, 09:17 AM
And, some of his political insight is very sharp indeed.

"Anyone who volunteers for the job of president should be immediately disqualified" + some other gems.

Like you, I disagree with much of what he espoused, but I learned a lot from his stuff. What was the book where everyone is armed - except those who wore the "brassard of peace"? Oh yeah - Beyond This Horizon. Interesting treatment of what living in a basically 100% armed society might be like. Not sure I ever agreed with his conclusion, but thought-provoking.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 09:19 AM
"Anyone who volunteers for the job of president should be immediately disqualified" + some other gems.

Like you, I disagree with much of what he espoused, but I learned a lot from his stuff. What was the book where everyone is armed - except those who wore the "brassard of peace"? Oh yeah - Beyond This Horizon. Interesting treatment of what living in a basically 100% armed society might be like. Not sure I ever agreed with his conclusion, but thought-provoking.

weren't our own Indians an everyone is armed society?

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 09:20 AM
I never read the novel. I actually thought 'Starship Troopers' (the movie) was a really excellent, and very dark, satire of fascism.... I take it you didn't see it that way?well i really really liked the book. And the movie is quite different, I think at the time of filming and with the budget there was no way to portray the 'powered armor suits' of the infantry which are central to the entire novel.

Joe (SoCal)
04-25-2013, 09:20 AM
Thank you Paul. At this point JCSOH is just piling on. Phillip has indicated he may consider how he deals with things, I think we should give him the chance to do so. My $0.02

I'll take that bet and spot ya $500 and a case of Gosslings Black Seal ;)

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 09:20 AM
weren't our own Indians an everyone is armed society?nope

Garret
04-25-2013, 09:22 AM
the home owner is certainly not at fault... it was not him who went to a policeman's house but the other way around.


Is that true? I am not aware of how the whole thing went down, but aren't you supposed to know what you're shooting at before you pull the trigger?

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 09:25 AM
Is that true? I am not aware of how the whole thing went down, but aren't you supposed to know what you're shooting at before you pull the trigger?

are you saying the home owner did not?

hokiefan
04-25-2013, 09:25 AM
I'll take that bet and spot ya $500 and a case of Gosslings Black Seal ;)

I made no bet. But I'll take your bounty.:d

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 09:29 AM
Like you, I disagree with much of what he espoused, but I learned a lot from his stuff. What was the book where everyone is armed - except those who wore the "brassard of peace"? Oh yeah - Beyond This Horizon. Interesting treatment of what living in a basically 100% armed society might be like. Not sure I ever agreed with his conclusion, but thought-provoking.It will be interesting to see if predictions in Beyond This Horizon of genetic manipulation to create a society of faultless humans becomes reality. That novel did give us the quote " an armed society is a polite society " It really is quite amazing how many quotes and sayings from Heinlein have been integrated into everday language, most famously, TANSTAAFL. But my favourite is, "I never learned from a man who agreed with me."

Joe (SoCal)
04-25-2013, 09:36 AM
I made no bet. But I'll take your bounty.:d

You bet $0.02 ;)

Mrleft8
04-25-2013, 09:42 AM
weren't our own Indians an everyone is armed society?


First of all who are "Our own Indians"? If you're referring to any number of the tribes/nations/groups of indigenous people that were living on the North American continent when European people started visiting, the answer is generally "no".

hokiefan
04-25-2013, 09:42 AM
You bet $0.02 ;)

Wasn't how I intended the statement. I said, "...." and offered it as my two cents worth. But if you want to wager that against your bounty I'm game.

Cheers,

Bobby

hanleyclifford
04-25-2013, 09:48 AM
Some interesting questions raised in this thread. Too bad it turned into the usual personal attack on Phillip. How far do police have to go in identifying themselves before bursting into a dwelling? Does the risk that evidence may quickly be flushed away actually justify rapid invasion? How far does the so called "castle law" (available in many states) go in protecting a homeowner from culpability? Usually the invader has to actually be in the dwelling, not at the door for the protection to apply (drag 'em inside, goes the old saw). If a suspect is cornered, is it really necessary to storm a position at once?

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 09:55 AM
Back to the original story. The shooting of John Adams occurred thirteen years ago. An all white jury (from Pulaski, TN, the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan, acquitted the two policemen in the shooting of manslaughter. The town paid a settlement of $400,000.00 to the Adams family. Google - less than ten seconds. . .

Tom Montgomery
04-25-2013, 09:56 AM
Was ANYONE charged?
You are in the mood to bash cops so you dig up a 7 year-old story. And then you have the nerve to pose this question to us?

Do your own research, lazy troll.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 10:26 AM
Some interesting questions raised in this thread. Too bad it turned into the usual personal attack on Phillip. How far do police have to go in identifying themselves before bursting into a dwelling? Does the risk that evidence may quickly be flushed away actually justify rapid invasion? How far does the so called "castle law" (available in many states) go in protecting a homeowner from culpability? Usually the invader has to actually be in the dwelling, not at the door for the protection to apply (drag 'em inside, goes the old saw). If a suspect is cornered, is it really necessary to storm a position at once?

I truly wish more people would ask the same questions... but, as noted, it always seems to end up as a personal attack. I wonder what the attackers hope to achieve? Shooting an old man is acceptablein the effort to get the druggies?

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 10:28 AM
Back to the original story. The shooting of John Adams occurred thirteen years ago. An all white jury (from Pulaski, TN, the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan, acquitted the two policemen in the shooting of manslaughter. The town paid a settlement of $400,000.00 to the Adams family. Google - less than ten seconds. . .

I take it then that my 'offence' was to bring it to people's attention... ignorance is preferred?

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 10:29 AM
First of all who are "Our own Indians"? If you're referring to any number of the tribes/nations/groups of indigenous people that were living on the North American continent when European people started visiting, the answer is generally "no".

are you limiting 'arms' to firearms? I certainly wasn't.

Tom Wilkinson
04-25-2013, 10:50 AM
I've already done that... you just chose not to believe me for your own reasons

Are you kidding. The last thread in which I asked you direct questions, you dodged them all. You decided to play semantics over the law of averages and speculation. Even though your comments were pretty well all speculation.

Garret
04-25-2013, 11:33 AM
are you saying the home owner did not?

I'm saying we don't know - but shooting a shotgun at cops carrying guns at the ready strikes me as a really good way to ensure that you get shot....

John of Phoenix
04-25-2013, 11:41 AM
Back to the original story. The shooting of John Adams occurred thirteen years ago. An all white jury (from Pulaski, TN, the birthplace of the Ku Klux Klan, acquitted the two policemen in the shooting of manslaughter. The town paid a settlement of $400,000.00 to the Adams family. Google - less than ten seconds. . .

I take it then that my 'offence' was to bring it to people's attention... ignorance is preferred?Get it?

Ian McColgin
04-25-2013, 12:19 PM
I don't know why Phillip, upon finding a story on the internet with no date attached, didn't do a minimal google.

From http://stopthedrugwar.org/chronicle-old/239/tennesseetown.shtml we get a follow-up story, 31 May 2002:

In October 2000, DRCNet reported on a rash of police killings during drug raids gone bad. Among them was the case of John Adams, 62, a black resident of Lebanon, TN, who was shot and killed by a police SWAT team raiding the wrong house on October 4 of that year. After masked officers burst into his home, Adams fired a shotgun at the intruders before they shot and killed him as his wife Lorine, 72, looked on in disbelief.

Lebanon Police Lt. Steve Nokes, head of the town's narcotics unit, was fired from the police department and indicted on charges of criminal responsibility for reckless homicide, tampering or fabricating evidence and aggravated perjury. He was acquitted of all charges in June 2001.

But the Lebanon Daily Times reported on May 24 that the city of Lebanon will pay at least $400,000 to Lorine Adams. She has received a lump sum payment of $200,000 and will receive $1,675 per month for the rest of her life. If she lives 15 years, the total pay-out would reach more than half a million dollars. The city also paid John Adams' medical bills of $45,000 and funeral expenses of $5,804. The city's insurance carrier will pay for the settlement. No word yet on Lebanon's new insurance rates.

See http://www.drcnet.org/wol/156.html#policeshootings for DRCNet's October 2000 report on bad drug raids.

# # #


The original CNN coverage was brief:

Man killed in police raid on wrong house
October 6, 2000

LEBANON, Tennessee -- Police shot and killed a man in his home in Lebanon, Tennessee, after trying to serve a drug search warrant at the wrong house.

John Adams, 62, who, according to his family, thought he was the victim of a home invasion, fired a sawed-off shotgun at officers as they entered his home. He was killed when they returned fire.

Police apologized for the tragic mistake. The house they intended to target was next door.

# # #

Unlike the Phillip's reairing things, at least our regional cicada bloom, that is also coming this spring, wait 17 years, not a mere 13.

Tom Montgomery
04-25-2013, 01:32 PM
I don't know why Phillip, upon finding a story on the internet with no date attached, didn't do a minimal google.
I think I know why.

hanleyclifford
04-25-2013, 01:35 PM
I'm saying we don't know - but shooting a shotgun at cops carrying guns at the ready strikes me as a really good way to ensure that you get shot.... This where the question lies; how do know that he knew they were cops? In the atmosphere of the place he was living did the occupant have reason to believe he was being invaded by thieves or druggies?

alvin greenwood
04-25-2013, 02:11 PM
I think it was around 15 years ago when Portland Or police broke into a MC gangs club house and a gang member shot a cop and killed him perhaps thinking it was another gang breaking in.

The MC guy got off free and clear as i remember.

Mrleft8
04-25-2013, 02:23 PM
are you limiting 'arms' to firearms? I certainly wasn't.

No Phillip I wasn't. Are you jumping to conclusions about what I wast thinking?..... Be very careful about that if you are, because contrary to popular opinion, I'm actually pretty intelligent, and I also happen to be pretty well educated about native American tribes.

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 02:35 PM
Are you jumping to conclusions about what I wast thinking?..... Be very careful about that if you are. . .funny

alvin greenwood
04-25-2013, 02:35 PM
No Phillip I wasn't. Are you jumping to conclusions about what I wast thinking?..... Be very careful about that if you are, because contrary to popular opinion, I'm actually pretty intelligent, and I also happen to be pretty well educated about native American tribes.
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s300/sjclark1967/FarSideLoneRanger.jpg

Paul Pless
04-25-2013, 02:38 PM
even funnier

stevebaby
04-25-2013, 03:12 PM
no one's at fault

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=95475&page=1&fb_source=message#.UXkkXILJK_W

sorry, should have been 'inconvenience'... much worse crime I supposeThis is clearly the householder's fault. He made a choice to live in the wrong house and paid the price for his negligence.

Garret
04-25-2013, 04:36 PM
This where the question lies; how do know that he knew they were cops? In the atmosphere of the place he was living did the occupant have reason to believe he was being invaded by thieves or druggies?

I don't know that - but have you ever seen a SWAT team that wasn't all gussied up in the latest "I want to look cool" gear & covered with So & So PD painted everywhere? Before anyone jumps on me - of course they need bullet-proof gear, etc. - but most seem to be trying to look like the ones in the movies.

Mrleft8
04-25-2013, 04:41 PM
If you don't look like The Terminator, you aren't really very scary now are you?

The Bigfella
04-25-2013, 04:42 PM
most of those questions come across as aggressive interrogation... easy to resist as it is a standard response to 'in-your-face' aggression

Can I ask a non aggressive question then? You said the other day that you were in a manhunt. Presumably as the subject. Were you the subject of police aggression during that manhunt?

Mrleft8
04-25-2013, 04:44 PM
Can I ask a non aggressive question then? You said the other day that you were in a manhunt. Presumably as the subject. Were you the subject of police aggression during that manhunt?
Perhaps he was looking for a romantic partner.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 04:49 PM
I don't know that - but have you ever seen a SWAT team that wasn't all gussied up in the latest "I want to look cool" gear & covered with So & So PD painted everywhere? Before anyone jumps on me - of course they need bullet-proof gear, etc. - but most seem to be trying to look like the ones in the movies.

okay... an assumption... actually a reasonable one but for the comment that I read saying the cops had POLICE t-shirts on...

John Smith
04-25-2013, 04:52 PM
'we' can't know is true... it is possible is true... now how about probability?

it seems you have already made up your mind that any attempt to defend one's self is wrong... interesting

You misconstrue me; probably on purpose. I have consistantly said that playing hero may or may not work out the way one hopes. It's a lot like how no quarterback ever intends to throw an interception, but it happens sometimes.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 04:55 PM
You misconstrue me; probably on purpose. I have consistantly said that playing hero may or may not work out the way one hopes. It's a lot like how no quarterback ever intends to throw an interception, but it happens sometimes.

thanks for your warning then... please stop repeating it constantly... that frequent repetition carries a different message

John Smith
04-25-2013, 04:55 PM
did they check to see if their 'target' had his hearing aid in? (point being is that the cops obviously did a poor job (if any) of identifying themsleves)... it is even possible that they lied to cover their 'mkistake' I even consider that 'probability' to be significant

You'll have to guess. What we know is he shot and they shot back. You can rationalize this many ways, I suppose, but as I read the story, had he not gotten his gun he'd still be alive. If it were burglars and he shot first, he'd probably be dead. His wife, too, perhaps.

I cannot understand why anyone believes having a gun to defend yourself against intruders always works out well.

John Smith
04-25-2013, 04:58 PM
Well, a man died in his own home because of some bureaucrats mistake. Think you will see any backlash against the bureaucrat? I think at the very least he/she should be charged with criminal negligence to begin with and maybe as party to a homicide.
As an aside, this story is over ten years old.

Excellent point. There are a great number of deaths because someone makes a bad decision or a mistake. These "someones" nearly always get to hide behind an organization or a corporation. People died in the BP and Massey mine events, and both were negligent in meeting safety requirements.

Michael D. Storey
04-25-2013, 04:58 PM
Sad but pretty hard to see what else the cops could have done.
idiots with guns.

An old man with a shot gun could have been answered with a tazer. or with pepper spray; shooting three times into his body after he has fired once and apparently not hit anyone clearly is an attempt to kill, rather than incapacitate, the shooter. I have been called upon to stop a shooter, and I can speak from a very small number of actual experiences. Persons in their early twenties, other that military, most likely would not have enough experience to do other than shoot to kill, I would suggest. I would also wonder if anyone along the way said that they were sorry.

John Smith
04-25-2013, 05:00 PM
Yet you fail... often miserably

ACtually, I'd say he fails quite well. Guess it's from all the practice.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 05:02 PM
You'll have to guess. What we know is he shot and they shot back. You can rationalize this many ways, I suppose, but as I read the story, had he not gotten his gun he'd still be alive. If it were burglars and he shot first, he'd probably be dead. His wife, too, perhaps.

I cannot understand why anyone believes having a gun to defend yourself against intruders always works out well.

we don't even know that... having a bunch of bullets plow into your torso might very well cause a spasmodic 'clutch'. I will admit that the ;cops shooting first is not unreasonable for a bunch of scared guys expecting a shootout with druggies

John Smith
04-25-2013, 05:06 PM
thanks for your warning then... please stop repeating it constantly... that frequent repetition carries a different message

If you'd stop putting words in my mouth, I'd not need to repost what I've actually said.

John Smith
04-25-2013, 05:07 PM
we don't even know that... having a bunch of bullets plow into your torso might very well cause a spasmodic 'clutch'. I will admit that the ;cops shooting first is not unreasonable for a bunch of scared guys expecting a shootout with druggies

We are responding to the incident as it was described in this thread.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 05:10 PM
We are responding to the incident as it was described in this thread.

have you ever sat on a jury? I reccomend it as educational AND civic duty

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 05:14 PM
I certainly would not want you on MY jury!

I wouldn't be allowed on your jury anyway... nor you, mine. so your comment is irrelevant... again

The Bigfella
04-25-2013, 05:19 PM
Phillip, my question?

Meli
04-25-2013, 05:49 PM
An old man with a shot gun could have been answered with a tazer. or with pepper spray; shooting three times into his body after he has fired once and apparently not hit anyone clearly is an attempt to kill, rather than incapacitate, the shooter. I have been called upon to stop a shooter, and I can speak from a very small number of actual experiences. Persons in their early twenties, other that military, most likely would not have enough experience to do other than shoot to kill, I would suggest. I would also wonder if anyone along the way said that they were sorry.

Um.. Did cops have tazers 13 years ago?
I have no truck with police using undue force, but if attacked with a shotgun in a confined space they have little choice.

iF someone discharged a shotgun at you at close quarters and you had your trusty gun, would you have stopped to think..
"Oh hang on a minute maybe i better ask him for some ID, i might have the wrong house? ..hmmm

this story is a troll.
I am sure there are quite enough recent events of police mistakes resulting in death of the wrong party to discuss.

The Bigfella
04-25-2013, 06:19 PM
Face it, Ian, Phillip does not like you and will rarely respond to your posts or to mine, except to label us ankle-biters, stalkers, etc. if we disagree with him.
You must understand that Phillip is not looking to communicate, he's looking to "educate" us because he is quite sure that he knows a hell of a lot more about Everything than we know! I'm sure you're as broken-hearted as I am over this circumstance!

No, tell me it isn't true?

I think Phillip used to communicate, but once we started to do some serious analysis about gun safety and discovered that there were, in fact, some serious issues that could be addressed, well, Phillip changed a bit.

The police thing is a bit different. Clearly, this manhunt that Phillip was in, is a defining moment. Maybe if Phillip were to open up a bit, some folks could help him with any unresolved issues.

Now Phillip..... my question? What is it? Are you scared, or scarred?

Donn
04-25-2013, 06:24 PM
Face it, Ian, Phillip does not like you and will rarely respond to your posts or to mine, except to label us ankle-biters, stalkers, etc. if we disagree with him.

Yet despite knowing this, you continue to stalk him, biting at his ankles.

:rolleyes:

The Bigfella
04-25-2013, 06:36 PM
Yet despite knowing this, you continue to stalk him, biting at his ankles.

:rolleyes:

Stalk? Do you make these sort of unsubstantiated, vile claims, often?

I have posted to only one of the last ten threads that Phillip has started.

One.

I'll await your apology with bated breath.

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 06:42 PM
Yet despite knowing this, you continue to stalk him, biting at his ankles.

:rolleyes:

he's a needler, Donn. it took me a while to figure it out but that's all he is and all he will ever be

Donn
04-25-2013, 06:46 PM
Stalk? Do you make these sort of unsubstantiated, vile claims, often?

I have posted to only one of the last ten threads that Phillip has started.

One.

I'll await your apology with bated breath.

Did I address you with my comment?

The Bigfella
04-25-2013, 06:57 PM
Did I address you with my comment?

You cited a post with my name in it. Do you need me to explain why I would consider myself "addressed" under those circumstances, or do you have the brainpower to figure it out?

The Bigfella
04-25-2013, 06:58 PM
he's a needler, Donn. it took me a while to figure it out but that's all he is and all he will ever be


Where do you rank "needler" in relation to "troll"?

S.V. Airlie
04-25-2013, 07:23 PM
A One, and a TWO, and THREE.............POOF. Oh well, give Scot a minute!:)

Phillip Allen
04-25-2013, 08:35 PM
locked