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Meli
04-22-2013, 02:39 AM
Today was the first really cold miserable day this Autumn.
Our library functions also as a daytime place for the homeless to stay warm and dry.
Thats ok, we welcome everyone.
But... We used to have the council toilets in an arcade outside.
This has always been a shooting gallery and last resort for cheap sex workers.

The problem was that mums and kids and other library patrons had nowhere else to go.

sO..
part of our new renovations included doing up the toilets and bringing the entrance inside the library.

Today we had a constant stream of kids ducking in and out, sharing the cubicals and leaving blood splatters and general mess.

Why did they think this would not happen?:rolleyes:

Duncan Gibbs
04-22-2013, 03:22 AM
I'd say the architects are not to blame as they merely follow the client brief. I'd say a better management regime is needed in terms of ensuring that it's clear that the toilets are for library patrons only. There are things that can be done to make it uninviting for IV users. Big anti-heroin posters and pro-library/pro-reading posters would be a start.

Paul Pless
04-22-2013, 04:33 AM
DO architects actually think?

Hard to say. . .

http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/108/12/108-1227073147-penis-shadow.web.jpg

Meli
04-22-2013, 04:56 AM
I'd say the architects are not to blame as they merely follow the client brief. I'd say a better management regime is needed in terms of ensuring that it's clear that the toilets are for library patrons only. There are things that can be done to make it uninviting for IV users. Big anti-heroin posters and pro-library/pro-reading posters would be a start.

some of these people are library patrons ..some of em just about live here.
I reckon they were just being cheat. They should have built us separate toilets and left the old ones alone.

they have created junkie heaven.
3 big games consoles, tables and seating and a unisex loo 10 feet away .
pwont be long until the complaints start rolling in.

we are sick of cleaning up the mess

Phil Y
04-22-2013, 05:00 AM
The budget would have been set by council, not by the architects. Maybe the toilets should be inside, and a needle exchange and shooting room outside.

Meli
04-22-2013, 05:01 AM
Little Johnny put a stop to public shooting rooms remember:cool:

Paul Pless
04-22-2013, 05:07 AM
So what's gonna ultimately happen? Its a high profile public facility, dope is illegal in Australia right. Won't the police eventually become involved or at least more visible as library patrons and staff make complaints?

Meli
04-22-2013, 05:19 AM
There is a the main district police station right next door.
This is a high drug use area, the cops have a sort of no interference policy. Keeps the peace. Keeps the junkies in the open etc. they only used to intervene in the old toilets in cases of violence (extremely rare) or overdosing.

We used to have a direct line there. Now we have to call emergency just like everyone else .

They have fixed nothing. The mums still have to take the kiddies to the parents room. (Kept locked , we open it on request)

We did not have to deal with the problem as it was outside the library. Now we do.
both cleaning up (or we wait 2 hours for a council cleaning crew) and having to directly confront these people at closing time to chuck em out.
Not Fun or safe.

we dont want a high police presence in the library.
iT's a welcome haven for the homeless and kids off the street.
most of them are perfectly well behaved, just play the games, use the wyfi, hang with their mates and sometimes even read a book or a comic.

police or security patrols would destroy the trust we have spent years building.

I reckon theybwill have to have a big rethink about locating the toilets elsewhere or locking them and the punters will have to ask for access.
more drain on our resources.

Duncan Gibbs
04-22-2013, 05:23 AM
some of these people are library patrons ..some of em just about live here.

Talk to them and let them know that you disapprove of their activities.


I reckon they were just being cheat. They should have built us separate toilets and left the old ones alone.

Perhaps, but there are two sets of budgets that get drawn up and architects have very little control over either: Capital works budget (bricks and mortar costs) and recurrents (maintenance costs). The project manager has to answer to both and control them for the client, in this case the Council/library authority. Water usage, cleaning rotations and so on can mount up to significant amounts on even a small facility if it's used a lot. Planning regulations also play a part in what is allowable in terms of facilities.


they have created junkie heaven.

It sounded like it existed before as well.


3 big games consoles, tables and seating

Can these be moved?


we are sick of cleaning up the mess

Take pictures and send them to the relevant department heads with a description of what is involved in cleaning up the mess, the time and frequency of having to clean it up. Blood of users splattered about the place sounds like an immediate case of having to deal with a biohazard and the legal/OH&S implications are off in leaps and bounds to begin with.

Pless... You're a baaaaaaad man! :D

Meli
04-22-2013, 05:40 AM
I think their are a lot of people coming in just to shoot up and leave like the used to do.
I also suspect deals are going on in there, just like they used to do when the toilets were outside.

the patrons that "use" can be talked to but I dont think the librarians will feel very comfy charging in on a deal and ordering them out.

sigh. Its a mess. Management will have to do something fast. winter will be worse with more people coming in out of the parks

I will have to have a chat to management ( with my OSH hat on) not looking forward to it at all being the new girl on the block.

iT's going to be a big issue at our next OHS meeting .

pictures are a good idea.

John Smith
04-22-2013, 05:40 AM
There are often errors made or unintended consequences from insufficient thought. When they built our new post office in '69, the mens room door was simply hung backwards. As it opened it gave full view of the urinals. Had the hinge been on the opposite side, it would have blocked the view.

We also had automatic doors that would open when anything passed over a light in the floor and broke the beam going to a receptor in the ceiling. What was overlooked was simple dirt that every few days built up enough to cover the light and break the beam so the doors stayed open.

Boht of these problems could have been avoided with a little thought.

purri
04-22-2013, 05:45 AM
Put stronger dose drugs there and they'll weed themselves out in short order. Darwin y'know.

Meli
04-22-2013, 05:48 AM
yep, I dont get it.
the new toilets are in exactly the same location as the old.
they have just refitted them, put doors in from the library during opening hours, lock it at night and open the doors at the other end of the corridor onto the arcade.
There was plenty of room to build a separate toilet from the library end and. Build a wall between.
It is almost as if they got sick of the toilets being totally unsupervised to be messed up and dumbly thought the sex and drug activities would stop if the users had to go through the library

John Smith
04-22-2013, 05:53 AM
yep, I dont get it.
the new toilets are in exactly the same location as the old.
they have just refitted them, put doors in from the library during opening hours, lock it at night and open the doors at the other end of the corridor onto the arcade.
There was plenty of room to build a separate toilet from the library end and. Build a wall between.
It is almost as if they got sick of the toilets being totally unsupervised to be messed up and dumbly thought the sex and drug activities would stop if the users had to go through the library

Sounds like budget retraints were a prime non mover in this case.Toilets aren't like chairs; they must be connected to plumbing.

Meli
04-22-2013, 06:02 AM
Yep, thats why the didnt move the toilets. Just changed the daytime access through the library.
IMHO they should have simply reconfigured the internal walls.
they're is a Big parents room with a loo, a huge unisex disabled toilet room with only 1 loo, a 4 cubicle mens loo and urinal and a 4 cubicle womens.
I am sure they could have squeezed in a single cubicle mens, womens and comunal parenting and disabled loo out of the space and separated it from the public toilets outside.

Nicholas Scheuer
04-22-2013, 06:32 AM
Why not have Attendants passing warm towels to the restroom users? Having Attendants would decrease the unemployment roles, too.

Paul Pless
04-22-2013, 06:34 AM
Socialized bathroom attendants. . .

Brilliant!

Ian McColgin
04-22-2013, 06:44 AM
Industrial design can work with little tricks. This is not directly to Meli's problem but by way of example, the urinals in Amsterdam were notoriously messy until a clever soul added a picture of a fly glazed into the porcelain finish right near the drain. Gave the boys something fun to aim at . . .

In this case, sounds like civic officials simply moved a problem that they knew full well all about from outside to inside, perhaps with exactly the idea of forcing library staff to keep order and provide sanitation services that were not in any municipal budget.

It's really hard to think of a legitimate, lawful, non-discriminatory way to funnel the not-so-nice into one set of facitilites - preferrably out of sight so we needed bother with leftover filth, old drug works etc. - while keeping nicer facilities for library staff, clean and sober readers, and small children who also are either well trained or under respectable parental supervision.

Sorry you're facing such a mess.

G'luck

Meli
04-22-2013, 06:49 AM
Well the simple and sensible answer is a supervised injecting room in the area.
But conservative governments won't consider it.:rolleyes:

Duncan Gibbs
04-22-2013, 06:57 AM
Socialized bathroom attendants. . .

Brilliant!
Don't laugh! They're in every Indian toilet and they always ask for money whether they wear an attendant's uniform or not. Some of them are just trying to feed themselves.

Now you've explained it that way Meli, it would seem that architects have nothing to do with what's happened and it's more a question of what was going through the mind of some management dil. It sounds as if the library is part of a bigger complex that may also be privately owned (arcade?), so that may also play a part in why the decision was made to alternate entries according to hours.

A bigger concern to both the property owners/managers and the council/library management is the biohazard issue to both staff and the general public. Successful litigation for negligence will always be more costly than short term capital savings, particularly if the issue is well and truly out in the open and on the record. Ask for a risk assessment to be made. Councils almost always have a public liability officer, or a PL consultant who will make such an assessment. Usually the results are pretty binding on policy because they form a specialist legal opinion and are the basis for other legal opinions that govern spending decisions on public facilities. Most of these opinions, and a good number of court findings & rulings, form the basis for the Building Code of Australia.

Tom Hunter
04-22-2013, 07:03 AM
My local library has a locked door, you have to ask for a key.

Ian McColgin
04-22-2013, 07:09 AM
There's a town facility across the parking lot from our library and the library facilities are locked. The druggies and street people don't even ask for the key anymore since that's one of the things that leads to scrutiny that may lead to their being ejected from the library. Our library is a bit boring for many anyhow - just books. No loud talking and no prolonged chats even if quiet. There are rooms for various book clubs, children's events, and such. The computer access is limited to 20 minutes in a day. So in general our street people find better places to hang.

Duncan Gibbs
04-22-2013, 07:26 AM
The BCA dictates a certain number of facilities be provided according to projected patronage, PL issues not withstanding.

Posters as I described are a good start because they give the feeling of being observed. Make sure they're big and spell out an obvious anti-drug message and a pro-reading/learning message in the others.

I'm all for being inclusive and trusting and that sort of thing, but sanction is the next step: If you think a deal is going down, call the police in, particularly if they're just next door. They are obliged to respond then whatever the local command "policy" is. Trust goes two ways and people need to take responsibility for their actions. Justice needs to be seen to be done after welcomes are worn out. The other patrons (the majority?) will thank you for it.

Sounds harsh, but life wasn't meant to be easy! ;)

Paul Pless
04-22-2013, 07:30 AM
Posters as I described are a good start because they give the feeling of being observed. Make sure they're big and spell out an obvious anti-drug message and a pro-reading/learning message in the others.Perhaps extend use of the library facility to a 12 step group.

Meli
04-22-2013, 07:30 AM
Our library is a bit big to be constantly unlocking and locking the door to the loo.
if only half of the loo users in the mens were legit, that door must have opened and closed 30 times in an hour !

funny that the womens was a LOT quieter.

be interesting to see if the mens dropped off if they had to ask a librarian

Duncan Gibbs
04-22-2013, 07:53 AM
Perhaps extend use of the library facility to a 12 step group.
12 steps to the lockup next door, and CCTV when one uses the loo!

Mrleft8
04-22-2013, 07:55 AM
How the hell is this the freakin' architect's fault?
Sounds like a security issue, not a design consideration.

Meli
04-22-2013, 08:05 AM
Do keep up lefty.
we have already sorted that out.
It's a idiot council issue.
maybe they think librarians will intimidate the problem away :D

It is a design consideration though. who the hell would have not considered the problems inherent in public toilets before incorporating them into the library's main building?

The Bigfella
04-22-2013, 08:08 AM
Well the simple and sensible answer is a supervised injecting room in the area.
But conservative governments won't consider it.:rolleyes:

NSW has a conservative government.... and this

http://www.sydneymsic.com/

I've discussed its ongoing operation with my local (conservative) politician.

Paul Pless
04-22-2013, 08:10 AM
12 steps to the lockup next door. . .So you see drug addiction as a criminal problem not a mental health issue?

Duncan Gibbs
04-22-2013, 08:23 AM
Paul, I see drug use as an incredibly complex problem that has does have a share of criminal issues, but along with a whole swag of social, economic, mental and physical health issues.

The primary issue I see in this particular situation is one of public safety.

An injecting room, associated with programmes like Twelve Steps, outreach and supported by health workers is really the best solution. But until stupid politicians and stupid journalists can get beyond glib one liners, fear-mongering and knee-jerking the problem is going to be left in the lap of Meli and her colleagues in the municipal library. There it remains, primarily, a public safety issue where users and dealers need to be told in no uncertain terms that their behaviours are totally unacceptable.

Tom Wilkinson
04-22-2013, 08:26 AM
Was the architect told that the design needs to incorporate a method to deal with these issues. Architects typically work for the client, not the other way around. The design had to be approved by someone prior to permitting. presumable that was some sort of building commitee at the library. Were they aware of these concerns?

S.V. Airlie
04-22-2013, 08:29 AM
some of these people are library patrons ..some of em just about live here.
I reckon they were just being cheat. They should have built us separate toilets and left the old ones alone.

they have created junkie heaven.
3 big games consoles, tables and seating and a unisex loo 10 feet away .
pwont be long until the complaints start rolling in.

we are sick of cleaning up the messMaybe this is terrible to say but, maybe the indigent should go to a homeless shelter. If THEY are the problem not much else you can do. If its kids, as you mentioned, that is another problem.

Duncan Gibbs
04-22-2013, 08:56 AM
DOES Jamie actually think?

ron ll
04-22-2013, 10:25 AM
I know this thread is no longer about libraries and architects, but I thought I would just add some fuel to the fire by posting this. This is Seattle's new library designed by a very famous architect. (Disclaimer, I'm an architect and I had a very small part in this.) So now carry on with the original question, "Do architects actually think?" :D

http://www.ronlloyd.com/Renderings/libra22p.jpg

S.V. Airlie
04-22-2013, 11:04 AM
DOES Jamie actually think?As much as you do. Not much a difference between us really.:)

bogdog
04-22-2013, 11:13 AM
Our local libraries have a security guard who keeps an eye on the bathrooms. Saw a segment on TV last night about a woman in England who turned an underground public restroom into her home. I had no idea the English didn't know how to pronounce urinal properly.

switters
04-22-2013, 11:15 AM
Most do and some dont. While I certainly like "outside the box" thinking, public spaces have to first and foremost work for the public.

Denver art Museum, by Lebeskind, is an interesting looking building, but I dont think the interior functions well as a Public art museum. I was not impressed by the architect when I found out that the construction documents would be on sheets 20" tall and 52" inches wide or something like that. We wasted a lot of paper on that job and all I had to do was figure out how the plants stay green.
http://www.denverartmuseum.org/sites/default/files/styles/headline_image/public/Denver%20Art%20Museum%20Image%203.jpg?itok=xWhO7Ym F

S.V. Airlie
04-22-2013, 12:30 PM
Bottom Line; Meli is fine with having the homeless in the library. Meli thinks the library should have other purposes to encompass to satisfy/help everyone. That is fine if Meli and the library staff is fine with it. However, they are now complaining about cleaning them. Bottom line, unless the staff changes its view regarding the use for the library, the staff is going to put up with the messes created and like it.

Canoeyawl
04-22-2013, 12:55 PM
Cameras...
That should do the trick

john welsford
04-22-2013, 02:07 PM
I'd say the architects are not to blame as they merely follow the client brief. I'd say a better management regime is needed in terms of ensuring that it's clear that the toilets are for library patrons only. There are things that can be done to make it uninviting for IV users. Big anti-heroin posters and pro-library/pro-reading posters would be a start.

Something that perhaps you and the rest of the library crew might be able to do. A while back, in response to growing issues of shoplifting and minor thuggery in a shopping mall somewhere, and from memory it may have been Melbourne, they started playing Barry Manilow music over the pa system. It worked, the age group that created all the mayhem went elsewhere, the moms who were the main customer base stayed.
I wonder what kind of music would work in this case?

Good to see you back by the way.
I note that St Kilda is just down the road from your new abode, last time I was there I found a shop that sells the most amazing chocolate cakes. Is that by any chance one of the reasons for choosing that location or just a serendipitous coincidence?

John Welsford

Mrleft8
04-22-2013, 03:42 PM
Rem Koolhaas is a famous architect?
Wow..... I thought Frank Gehry was bad...... This guy's like Gehry on acid......

Mrleft8
04-22-2013, 03:43 PM
Bottom Line; Meli is fine with having the homeless in the library. Meli thinks the library should have other purposes to encompass to satisfy/help everyone. That is fine if Meli and the library staff is fine with it. However, they are now complaining about cleaning them. Bottom line, unless the staff changes its view regarding the use for the library, the staff is going to put up with the messes created and like it.
OK..... My last comment about Frank Gehry on acid just got put into perspective..... Never mind.

ron ll
04-22-2013, 03:55 PM
Rem Koolhaas is a famous architect?
Wow..... I thought Frank Gehry was bad...... This guy's like Gehry on acid......

That's why I posted it. As with all new and unusual architecture, some love it, some hate it. To critique any architecture, it is best to know and understand the program the architect was given, and to see how well the solution satisfies that program.

Mrleft8
04-22-2013, 04:15 PM
That's why I posted it. As with all new and unusual architecture, some love it, some hate it. To critique any architecture, it is best to know and understand the program the architect was given, and to see how well the solution satisfies that program.
Indeed. And it sure helps if the architect ever bothered to get off his/her ass, out of the office, and learns how to build the things he/she intends others to build.
While it is pretty much a given that carpenters and fabricators must learn to read prints, architects don't very often seem to feel the need to learn how to build stuff.

Meli
04-22-2013, 04:15 PM
Bottom Line; Meli is fine with having the homeless in the library. Meli thinks the library should have other purposes to encompass to satisfy/help everyone. That is fine if Meli and the library staff is fine with it. However, they are now complaining about cleaning them. Bottom line, unless the staff changes its view regarding the use for the library, the staff is going to put up with the messes created and like it.

jamie,
It is notThe homeless that are the problem.
We have always been welcoming to those that live in shelters. you may be surprised but the oldies come in, play chess, read books, socialise with their mates. As long as the alcohol stays in the trolly, we're fine.
most shelters close between 9am and 6pm. They need somewhere to stay out of the cold in winter during the day.
It's drug users that are the problem. These people are rarely homeless.

alvin greenwood
04-22-2013, 04:20 PM
I know this thread is no longer about libraries and architects, but I thought I would just add some fuel to the fire by posting this. This is Seattle's new library designed by a very famous architect. (Disclaimer, I'm an architect and I had a very small part in this.) So now carry on with the original question, "Do architects actually think?" :D

http://www.ronlloyd.com/Renderings/libra22p.jpg.

I was going to laugh then thought of the Astoria OR library.

In a place where there is no sunshine this is what they came up with.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Astoria_Library,_Oregon,_2011.JPG

ron ll
04-22-2013, 04:24 PM
Indeed. And it sure helps if the architect ever bothered to get off his/her ass, out of the office, and learns how to build the things he/she intends others to build.
While it is pretty much a given that carpenters and fabricators must learn to read prints, architects don't very often seem to feel the need to learn how to build stuff.

Not all architects are unfamiliar with the construction trades, altho most hammer jockeys like to think so. :)

Mrleft8
04-22-2013, 04:49 PM
Of course not.
But the thud pluckers get paid a lot less to read plans and pound nails than the pencil pilots. ;)
And I've been on both ends of this teeter totter. :D

S.V. Airlie
04-22-2013, 04:51 PM
I always thought the architectural drawings have be approved by those who commission the project.

Meli
04-22-2013, 05:24 PM
I would have thought that architects would be familiar with the idea of taking local conditions into account when designing a new building.
apparently not. THe have recently proposed a new railway station development on our line .
once again a high drug use area.
the design is loaded with corners and areas not visible to passengers, lots of cold windy passages.
they are pulling down a lovely, functional 19th cent red brick building to do it.
Public protest is huge, but I doubt they will listen.

S.V. Airlie
04-22-2013, 05:29 PM
I would say those who commissioned the project, approved the design, and had it built would be familiar with exactly what you are talking about. The architect does the bidding of those who approved it.

ron ll
04-22-2013, 05:35 PM
I would say those who commissioned the project, approved the design, and had it built would be familiar with exactly what you are talking about. The architect does the bidding of those who approved it.

Maybe somewhere in between. But a good architect should be able to advise their client if they see glaring problems with the program. Centuries ago an architect was a master builder, controlling almost everything on the project. Today there are so many others with their fingers in the pie it is harder and harder for the architect to insure a good outcome.

Meli
04-22-2013, 05:35 PM
They should surely give advise and point out flaws for their millions?

ron ll
04-22-2013, 05:38 PM
They should surely give advise and point out flaws for their millions?

Correct up to your last word. :) The only rich architects I know are ones who have invested wisely elsewhere.

S.V. Airlie
04-22-2013, 05:39 PM
Did they know ( architects) took in the homeless as part of it being a library? I bet not. Even if there was something amiss on the architects part, this useless community should have told him of the library's OTHER functions. They didn't it appears. The commission should pay or, at least, lose their jobs.

Duncan Gibbs
04-22-2013, 05:51 PM
Architectural drawings must be approved by the consent authorities that allow the development. The drawings must demonstrate the building will comply with all the applicable building codes and be structurally sound. Most architectural courses have a significant practical component these days, where students have to design and build something themselves. They are allocated a budget, and sometimes a carbon/ecological footprint within which they must work.

Project architects, the ones in charge of a particular job, must deal with everyone on the project, from supervising junior architects, dealing with consent authorities, clients, other consultants and builders. Not everything is always perfect, but most architects have a very good idea of how a building must go together and in what order things should go together to avoid additional costs and delays. The idea that architects are somehow capriciously ignorant of reality and change things on whims is an absurdity. Environmental design is generally about 1% inspiration and 99% negotiation/ guiding/ liaising/ costing and all the other minutia of getting something as complex as a building, or in my case a landscape, built.

bogdog
04-22-2013, 05:54 PM
To straighten up problems in libraries ya need to do what we do in Virgina. http://www.nbc12.com/story/19290231/gun-supporters-protest-richmond-library-rule-with-open-carry-read-in

Duncan Gibbs
04-22-2013, 05:59 PM
In this instance I doubt an architect would have been engaged, more likely a draftsman, since swapping doors around is hardly worth the fee that would be charged. Remembering that the charge out rate must cover wages, office costs and insurances. Insurances are the kicker these days. PI & PL insurances for a small practice can run into many tens of thousands of dollars, and that's a cost to just get a look in on the project. Then you have to win it, usually based on price.

purri
04-22-2013, 07:18 PM
Somewhere they installed blue (U/V) fluoro lighting. (They can't find a vein to use)

Paul Pless
04-22-2013, 07:24 PM
Somewhere they installed blue (U/V) fluoro lighting. (They can't find a vein to use)

whatever

alvin greenwood
04-22-2013, 07:43 PM
As long as architects dont put chimneys in valleys and understand water flows down hill and best unobstructed we have no problem..

Phil Y
04-22-2013, 08:01 PM
The blue lights apparently work quite well-you might be able to get council or whoever to give that a try.

Meli
04-23-2013, 07:33 AM
Did they know ( architects) took in the homeless as part of it being a library? I bet not. Even if there was something amiss on the architects part, this useless community should have told him of the library's OTHER functions. They didn't it appears. The commission should pay or, at least, lose their jobs.

ahem Jamie.
Everyone knows St Kilda :D

ron ll
04-23-2013, 07:50 AM
Meli, I think I figured it out. Your ex must be an architect, right? :D

Meli
04-23-2013, 08:06 AM
Systems architects don't have to think about people:rolleyes:

Tom Wilkinson
04-23-2013, 08:26 AM
Systems architects don't have to think about people:rolleyes:

Someone in charge of the library approved the architects design. thats where your issue lies. Whatever commitee provided the scope of design work and design parameter to the architect is where the fault lies. if this were a major issue to them, the architect surely would take it into account. Apparently the issue was not clearly given as a major design consideration.

Meli
04-23-2013, 08:38 AM
Ha, knowing the left wing yuppies that work at council, they prolly didn't even think about it.
ergo Nasty people or homeless people do not go to libraries. No problem.:rolleyes:
the architects should have set em right. They design buildings, buildings are for people.people use buildings.
public buildings are open to the public.. All of the public.

Canoeyawl
04-23-2013, 10:42 AM
public buildings are open to the public.. All of the public.

If what they are doing is criminal, maybe not.

alvin greenwood
04-23-2013, 11:33 AM
Years ago i wuz sitting in the library minding my own bizness reading the catcher in the rye when i heard screaming, A local bum was yelling at the little librarians, I went over to see what was going on and the ladies said this guy was in every day yelling at them.

The bum sat down , i needed to see the worlds atlas and see if NJ was still in the right place on the map but woe is me i tripped and the world atlas fell right on his head..

course i sez in sorry....

Thats the risk of having a building open to the public all sorts of clumsy roofers loiter around...

bogdog
04-23-2013, 11:34 AM
In the libraries here library security keeps an eye out for the homeless and questionable users. If someone is causing a problem a record is started about their behavior. If they get a certain number of strikes on their record they can be suspended or banned from the libraries. There are offenses that can get someone banned immediately and forever which has happened. Generally the homeless don't cause problems and during severe weather libraries are often the only refuge they have. I believe just in our city alone we had two heat related fatalities last year one of which was a homeless man. Once individuals who used the libraries for illicit purposes realized security would call the police most of the activities declined or ceased. That still doesn't help with the women's restrooms which apparently are almost universally messy.

bogdog
04-23-2013, 11:38 AM
Years ago i wuz sitting in the library minding my own bizness reading the catcher in the rye when i heard screaming, A local bum was yelling at the little librarians, I went over to see what was going on and the ladies said this guy was in every day yelling at them.

The bum sat down , i needed to see the worlds atlas and see if NJ was still in the right place on the map but woe is me i tripped and the world atlas fell right on his head..

course i sez in sorry....

Thats the risk of having a building open to the public all sorts of clumsy roofers loiter around...

That's funny. If I had been the librarian I would have called the police and gotten rid of two problems...

S.V. Airlie
04-23-2013, 01:42 PM
I've spent a lot of time in libraries. Never saw homeless people using it. May happen but, rare except in your library Meli. Maybe the architect should have installed showers as well.

Paul Pless
04-23-2013, 03:10 PM
Never saw homeless people using it. me thinks that you don't have much of an idea of what homeless people look like. . .

bogdog
04-23-2013, 03:15 PM
I've spent a lot of time in libraries. Never saw homeless people using it. May happen but, rare except in your library Meli. Maybe the architect should have installed showers as well.

In the US public libraries have commonly become referred to as the "new homeless shelters" in many communities. The ALA encourages systems to assist the homeless if they can. Access to information and information technology should be available to all and many library systems around the country have programs designed specifically to help those with the greatest need. It is the rare community in the US that doesn't have this problem. http://www.salon.com/2013/03/07/public_libraries_the_new_homeless_shelters_partner/

Mrleft8
04-23-2013, 03:15 PM
me thinks that you don't have much of an idea of what homeless people look like. . .

Me thinks that a mirror in the showers might have helped that situation....

S.V. Airlie
04-23-2013, 03:38 PM
me thinks that you don't have much of an idea of what homeless people look like. . .Me thinks I have a good idea in many cases Paul. I've even been to a city and seen for myself.

bogdog
04-23-2013, 03:42 PM
Me thinks I have a good idea in many cases Paul. I've even been to a city and seen for myself.Actually you're clueless. Try calling your local library and get back to us.

Mrleft8
04-23-2013, 03:43 PM
WHOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!......................

(It really is astounding sometimes.....)

S.V. Airlie
04-23-2013, 03:47 PM
Actually you're clueless. Try calling your local library and get back to us.I don't have to. I go to the library here 3 times a week at least and guess what I don't see? I went to libraries all over the eastern seaboard, except for yours I guess and what do I see? No homeless in any of them.. Maybe you hang out there Bog every day and keep records.

bogdog
04-23-2013, 04:02 PM
I don't have to. I go to the library here 3 times a week at least and guess what I don't see? I went to libraries all over the eastern seaboard, except for yours I guess and what do I see? No homeless in any of them.. Maybe you hang out there Bog every day and keep records.

Wow! Totally astounding, does your ophthalmologist know? Call your library ask them, they love calls, they are there to enlighten you it's more than just a job for most.

John Smith
04-23-2013, 04:17 PM
Perhaps extend use of the library facility to a 12 step group.

Maybe we ought to change our drug laws.

Mrleft8
04-23-2013, 05:12 PM
I don't have to. I go to the library here 3 times a week at least and guess what I don't see? I went to libraries all over the eastern seaboard, except for yours I guess and what do I see? No homeless in any of them.. Maybe you hang out there Bog every day and keep records.
Maybe they just figure you're the token crazy smelly guy, and go to the spa instead..... :D

Mrleft8
04-23-2013, 05:13 PM
Maybe we ought to change our drug laws.

Or at least require a library card to use the facility.....

S.V. Airlie
04-23-2013, 07:24 PM
Well, I going down to the homeless shelter to take out a book tomorrow. Have a good day folks.

bogdog
04-23-2013, 08:05 PM
...to take out a book tomorrow.
Why bother?

Meli
04-24-2013, 02:37 AM
In the libraries here library security keeps an eye out for the homeless and questionable users. If someone is causing a problem a record is started about their behavior. If they get a certain number of strikes on their record they can be suspended or banned from the libraries. There are offenses that can get someone banned immediately and forever which has happened. Generally the homeless don't cause problems and during severe weather libraries are often the only refuge they have. I believe just in our city alone we had two heat related fatalities last year one of which was a homeless man. Once individuals who used the libraries for illicit purposes realized security would call the police most of the activities declined or ceased. That still doesn't help with the women's restrooms which apparently are almost universally messy.

PRettymuch the way in works here except we donthave security.
The branch manager handles it or if She is making no headway, the big boss comes out and tells them they are banned for whatever perion seems reasonable.
Most of the time, these are people with mental health problems, they are usually apologetic leave quietly and come back week or a month later.

Our staff are trained to talk situations down before they escalate.
Jamie, you may not have homeless people in your library, it depends on a lot of factors.
iF your library is small and a long way from the food shops and restraunt area in your city, its unlikely you will attract those that need to be invisible, find food, and keep warm close to their night shelter.

S.V. Airlie
04-24-2013, 08:42 AM
jamie,
It is notThe homeless that are the problem.
We have always been welcoming to those that live in shelters. you may be surprised but the oldies come in, play chess, read books, socialise with their mates. As long as the alcohol stays in the trolly, we're fine.
most shelters close between 9am and 6pm. They need somewhere to stay out of the cold in winter during the day.
It's drug users that are the problem. These people are rarely homeless.
Why doI sense there is serious drug use among the homeless, firstly
Secondly, where are the kids who use drugs coming from?

Mrleft8
04-24-2013, 09:03 AM
Why doI sense there is serious drug use among the homeless, firstly
Secondly, where are the kids who use drugs coming from?
Do you actually read anything at all? Anything? :rolleyes:

S.V. Airlie
04-24-2013, 11:04 AM
Doug, I hear a lot of whining about helping the homeless, drugs, and loos, an architect, a B of Trustees who approved plans and shouldn't have, I hear the whining from one of the staff members because they have to clean up the messes left. I dsay, if people want to attract those folks to the library, they are going to have to sew what they reap. So, yes, I read the posts; not all of them because the posts just become repetitive.I get bored with repetition with nothing else, new added to make it interesting.

bogdog
04-24-2013, 11:13 AM
Do you actually read anything at all? Anything? :rolleyes:I understand S. Palin likes to read too. Maybe they read the same material?

Mrleft8
04-24-2013, 12:49 PM
Doug, I hear a lot of whining about helping the homeless, drugs, and loos, an architect, a B of Trustees who approved plans and shouldn't have, I hear the whining from one of the staff members because they have to clean up the messes left. I dsay, if people want to attract those folks to the library, they are going to have to sew what they reap. So, yes, I read the posts; not all of them because the posts just become repetitive.I get bored with repetition with nothing else, new added to make it interesting.
You get bored with repetition!..... LOL! That's a keeper! :D

S.V. Airlie
04-24-2013, 01:40 PM
I understand S. Palin likes to read too. Maybe they read the same material?And you read what? I say very little. Oh right you tend to cast stones and I now can do the same. Happy now!
I love it when you travel in packs and live on the insults of others because you can't stand on you're own four legs..

bogdog
04-24-2013, 02:01 PM
And you read what? I say very little. Oh right you tend to cast stones and I now can do the same. Happy now!
I love it when you travel in packs and live on the insults of others because you can't stand on you're own four legs..

Sorry you're the one who made the wildly unsubstantiated and incorrect claim that the homeless don't frequent libraries (except maybe one in Australia) all the while claiming you are a dedicated library user up and down the eastern seaboard(not in my bog of course).

If you don't mind I'll pass this quote on to the state public library directors tomorrow, it'll give everybody a nice sad chuckle.


I've spent a lot of time in libraries. Never saw homeless people using it. May happen but, rare except in your library Meli. Maybe the architect should have installed showers as well.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
04-24-2013, 02:11 PM
I know this thread is no longer about libraries and architects, but I thought I would just add some fuel to the fire by posting this. This is Seattle's new library designed by a very famous architect. (Disclaimer, I'm an architect and I had a very small part in this.) So now carry on with the original question, "Do architects actually think?" :D

http://www.ronlloyd.com/Renderings/libra22p.jpg

And the interior is worse. Would you believe, with all that glass, it's dark? Lots of black paint, and wild Roadrunner Green and bright red in places with no windows. Extremely inefficient, both inside and out. I agree with losing some space for quality of space, but the design loses enormous volumes, and, it doesn't even look good inside or out. I love public libraries, but I hate that building.

ron ll
04-24-2013, 02:40 PM
See, told you. Some love it, some hate it. I haven't found it dark at all inside.

bogdog
04-24-2013, 02:44 PM
See, told you. Some love it, some hate it. I haven't found it dark at all inside.
I know it's only been up since '04 does anybody know what it's like in the sunlight?

alvin greenwood
04-24-2013, 02:48 PM
I understand S. Palin likes to read too. Maybe they read the same material?.November 9, 2010 — bunkervilleThis is just too good. Sarah wraps up the guy for not reading his own newspaper. Sarah is coming into her own. She is ripping Bernanke for setting us up for big time inflation, corralled lots of good-hearted folks to run for office who would not have done so before…she is on a roll. Keep charging Sarah. Sarah is starting to shine (http://hotair.com/archives/2010/11/09/palin-do-newspaper-reporters-read-their-own-newspapers/)
On her Facebook wall (http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=453294443434), Sarah Palin shreds WSJ blogger Sudeep Reddy over his response to her comments regarding QE (http://www.businessinsider.com/sarah-palin-on-qe2-2010-11):
Ever since 2008, people seem inordinately interested in my reading habits. Among various newspapers, magazines, and local Alaskan papers, I read the Wall Street Journal.
So, imagine my dismay when I read an article by Sudeep Reddy (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/11/08/sarah-palins-qe2-criticism-includes-inflation-hyperbole/?mod=e2tw) in today’s Wall Street Journal criticizing the fact that I mentioned inflation in my comments about QE2 (http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/252715/palin-bernanke-cease-and-desist-robert-costahttp:/www.nationalreview.com/corner/252715/palin-bernanke-cease-and-desist-robert-costa) in a speech this morning before a trade-association. Here’s what I said: “everyone who ever goes out shopping for groceries knows that prices have risen significantly over the past year or so. Pump priming would push them even higher.”
Mr. Reddy takes aim at this. He writes: “Grocery prices haven’t risen all that significantly, in fact.” Really? That’s odd, because just last Thursday, November 4, I read an article in Mr. Reddy’s own Wall Street Journaltitled “Food Sellers Grit Teeth, Raise Prices (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704506404575592313664715360.html?K EYWORDS=safeway): Packagers and Supermarkets Pressured to Pass Along Rising Costs, Even as Consumers Pinch Pennies.”
Now I realize I’m just a former governor and current housewife from Alaska, but even humble folks like me can read the newspaper. I’m surprised a prestigious reporter for the Wall Street Journal doesn’t.
- Sarah Palin


Another drive by from a lib with PDS.

alvin greenwood
04-24-2013, 02:54 PM
I understand S. Palin likes to read too. Maybe they read the same material?.

Funny thing is you either drank the kool aid or were to lazy to do any research or did but choose to ignore it, Glad you can pile on jamie and feel important though.ABC Barbara Walters Sarah Palin interview edited out mention of Mark Levin’s Book (https://bunkerville.wordpress.com/2010/12/11/abc-barbara-walters-sarah-palin-interview-edited-out-mention-of-mark-levin%e2%80%99s-book/)December 11, 2010 — bunkervilleDon’t you just love the left? Free speech and all of that except when they get a chance to diss Sarah. It was a setup anyway, asking what she reads, then editing it?After two years of mocking her about her reading? Here they got a twofer. They sure didn’t want to mention Mark, now did they. Apparently his book is not on the approved government controlled reading list. Just the beginning, wait till we get the FCC’s mandates in place. While this may seem like it is not a big story, it is one. There should be outrage. By the way, Mark’s book is a great read!
Mark Levin said tonight on his show that when Sarah Palin was asked by Barbara Walters (http://www.therightscoop.com/sarah-palin-interview-with-barbara-walters)what she reads, among the others she mentioned was that she reads Liberty and Tyranny, Mark Levin’s book. According to Mark, they edited that out:

bogdog
04-24-2013, 03:02 PM
.
Another drive by from a lib with PDS.

She dug her hole all by herself. If she's learning to crawl out of it good for her, maybe she'll even learn how to keep both feet on the ground, but it'll will be a while before that very valid critique of her about her depth of knowledge goes away. Now I'm off the whack a bum in the head, accidentally of course. Wanna come along?

Mrleft8
04-24-2013, 04:59 PM
See, told you. Some love it, some hate it. I haven't found it dark at all inside.

Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a good book. Inside of a dog, it's dark.
(Groucho Marx I think....)

That building is a dog.

Meli
04-24-2013, 05:11 PM
Why doI sense there is serious drug use among the homeless, firstly
Secondly, where are the kids who use drugs coming from?

probably good homes with nice middle class parents that give em too much pocket money.

smack is expensive.

Jamie., next time you are in your library instead of trying to work out if that lady with the two year old is a junkie, homeless or both,.
have a look in the non fiction section for some real information on drug addiction, the causes of homelessness etc (around the 363.000 area I think)

Mrleft8
04-24-2013, 05:39 PM
probably good homes with nice middle class parents that give em too much pocket money.

smack is expensive.

Jamie., next time you are in your library instead of trying to work out if that lady with the two year old is a junkie, homeless or both,.
have a look in the non fiction section for some real information on drug addiction, the causes of homelessness etc (around the 363.000 area I think)
Is that 363.000 AD, or BC?

ron ll
04-24-2013, 06:42 PM
Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a good book. Inside of a dog, it's dark.
(Groucho Marx I think....)



and poor Groucho is rolling in his grave over your tortured paraphrasing. :)