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David W Pratt
04-08-2013, 09:31 AM
Turns out to be today

Osborne Russell
04-08-2013, 03:59 PM
They have a defense which they call Goddard's law or something. It's a specific prohibition of drawing any parallels between the Nazis and anything.

skuthorp
04-08-2013, 06:06 PM
"They"?
It's more self centeredness and neglect I reckon.
And just because they had 'socialist' in the party name means nothing.

John Smith
04-08-2013, 06:07 PM
I remember my dad had a friend who was among the troops that went into the camps. I remember him telling of how they really didn't believe the stories they had heard. Then they saw and smelled.

If we're going to look at Hitler in a manner of comparing him to others, wasn't this a form of racisim? Wasn't he doing God's work?

Phillip Allen
04-08-2013, 06:15 PM
I remember my dad had a friend who was among the troops that went into the camps. I remember him telling of how they really didn't believe the stories they had heard. Then they saw and smelled.

If we're going to look at Hitler in a manner of comparing him to others, wasn't this a form of racisim? Wasn't he doing God's work?

racisism abounds on all sides... especially from those who use it as a trump card to silence voices they don't want heard

Paul Pless
04-08-2013, 06:26 PM
Weirdness abounds

John Smith
04-08-2013, 06:36 PM
racisism abounds on all sides... especially from those who use it as a trump card to silence voices they don't want heard

That's a cop out of those never victimized by racism.

Phillip Allen
04-08-2013, 06:39 PM
That's a cop out of those never victimized by racism.

no... it's a direct observation

bogdog
04-08-2013, 07:21 PM
My FIL was a POW captured by the Germans in September 1939, freed by the Americans, it took about three months before he was healthy enough to leave the hospital. His sister survived in Poland, but his parents disappeared into Auschwitz, the Nazi's got the rest of his family early on, at least those that were left by the Russians. One cousin made it to England, his Vickers Wellington went into a fjord in Denmark in '42.

Chip-skiff
04-08-2013, 08:00 PM
I'm not a Jew, nor have Jewish family, but only dear friends whose family histories are harrowing, indeed.

Remembering makes me sad, but at times it's the obligation of any decent human being to feel that way.

skuthorp
04-08-2013, 08:24 PM
I see 'democratic' in the name of the old East German governing party, another dictatorship, means nothing in the context either.
The 'political afilliation' of the Nazi Party was the Nazi Party. Attempting a second agenda to reinforce your own views on contemporary US politics is transparent.
Definitions of socialist are a moveable feast of course, many Scandinavian countries fit the definition regardless of their changing governments orientation left or right. And even those terms are very 19th century and just convenient labels for the media and opposing political parties to beat each other with.

bogdog
04-08-2013, 08:28 PM
So then what was the political affiliation of the Nazi party and what is your definition of 'socialist'?The Nazis may have started as socialists but after Hitler's take over that changed obviously. Hitler killed as many of the original socialists as he could find.

skipper68
04-08-2013, 08:30 PM
I can NEVER remember.
My sweet heart cant comprehend.
Sorry.
It's me and my Scripts.
My heart breaks just opening this thread. :(

skuthorp
04-08-2013, 09:41 PM
There is no definitive 'definition' Rod, like everything else it's relative, and almost never consistent. Because it's a construct by humans and humans are not consistent either. Look at the differences in your own major parties compared with say 1950, 1970. Ours are almost unrecognisable. Oh the language is the same but the actuality is different, as is the electorate of course.

skuthorp
04-09-2013, 03:07 AM
OK, so are we talking classical socialism, from Britannica:
"socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members."
or the Obama admin that some on this forum accuse of being socialist?

Phillip Allen
04-09-2013, 01:10 PM
OK, so are we talking classical socialism, from Britannica:
"socialism, social and economic doctrine that calls for public rather than private ownership or control of property and natural resources. According to the socialist view, individuals do not live or work in isolation but live in cooperation with one another. Furthermore, everything that people produce is in some sense a social product, and everyone who contributes to the production of a good is entitled to a share in it. Society as a whole, therefore, should own or at least control property for the benefit of all its members."
or the Obama admin that some on this forum accuse of being socialist?

sounds familiar... "You didn't build that"

Nicholas Scheuer
04-09-2013, 01:17 PM
I've always thought the Nazis were "Facists", not "Socialists", like Italians under Mousolini.

Phillip Allen
04-09-2013, 01:19 PM
I've always thought the Nazis were "Facists", not "Socialists", like Italians under Mousolini.

the way he came to power was by promising everyone a piece of his neighbor's property... socialism

Nicholas Scheuer
04-09-2013, 01:28 PM
The truly incredible people of today are the "Deniers". Were I a Jew with a fortune, I'd be financing secret stocks of M-16's and M-60 machine guns, and purchasing fleets of Datsun Pickups for Bar & Bat Mitzva teenagers, just like the Syrian Rebels, etc use for transport. Should the pickups become worn out driving to high school, that would be a good thing.

bogdog
04-09-2013, 01:32 PM
the way he came to power was by promising everyone a piece of his neighbor's property... socialism

Neither Hitler or Mussolini believed in socialism. Far-right nationalism and socialism don't generally mix, the former socialist colleagues of both discovered that early on. Secret police and long knives anyone?

Lew Barrett
04-09-2013, 01:37 PM
A rose is a rose by any other name. This is what trips up the new meme regarding Nazism and Socialism every time. What do you make of:
National Socialist Democratic Worker's Party, (NASDAP) the actual full "acronym" of the Nazi Party? It's all there, isn't it? You're a nationalist, a socialist, a democrat, and a worker! The shorthand for that is "Nazi." It was actually not the acronym of the party. The party acronym, again, was NASDAP.

What we know: they weren't really democratic as Hitler was appointed Chancellor by Hindenburg and after that, kiss open national elections goodbye. We know that they were very nationalistic. Need I explain? We know that they were by no stretch socialists as they/he were supported in his ascent by people like the Krupps, Germany's major armorers and industrialists (big capital in other words) and that virtually every socialist and communist in the country was rounded up, killed out of hand or herded into a camp by 1939.

The new big meme of the right is that Hitler's "Nazis" were "socialists." Just one of the fundamentals that are so badly and poorly understood. What were the Nazis? They were the right wing of German politics who ascended to power and they and all their allies in the conflict were properly "fascists." One can look that up to gain a complete understanding of what "Nazi" (NASADAP) really means. Any other interpretation is revisionist or very poorly informed.

Lew Barrett
04-09-2013, 01:46 PM
The irony of Hitler's rise to power is that nobody actually thought much of him outside of the whacko fringes. He never got more than about 33% of the vote, but was propelled into power by big money and powerful influences who felt they could control and benefit through his station. Benefit they did, but control him they never really could. Capital was behind Hitler's rise and it should be remembered that "great men" like Henry Ford (even in this country) thought Hitler would be just swell.

A very poor understanding of events, propagated on the internet, leads us to this now time worn discussion.

Paul Pless
04-09-2013, 01:49 PM
the way he came to power was by promising everyone a piece of his neighbor's property... socialismYou've never read the Cliff Notes to Mein Kampf, have you? Hitler never made such promises, explicitly nor implicitly. Hitler's appeal was primarily one of nationalism to the masses of Germans and racism to the core of the Nazi party. Hitler's promises early were elimination of the Jewish Financiers and Jewish meddling within the borders of Germany and later "the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!" He also promised early the rise of Germany as the dominate nation in Europe in control of its own destiny and later the expansion of Germany's territorial claims and the rise of Germans as the so called Aryan Race.

Paul Pless
04-09-2013, 01:53 PM
The irony of Hitler's rise to power is that nobody actually thought much of him outside of the whacko fringes. He never got more than about 33% of the vote. . .Seems foreign to us, with our two party system; but Germany had dozens of active political parties pre-1925 and still quite few until 1933.

PhaseLockedLoop
04-09-2013, 02:04 PM
the way he came to power was by promising everyone a piece of his neighbor's property... socialism

Sure, I remember the old newsreels of Hitler regaling folk in small towns, promising "A chicken in every pot." :pmad:

bogdog
04-09-2013, 02:08 PM
Sure, I remember the old newsreels of Hitler regaling folk in small towns, promising "A chicken in every pot." :pmad:
Hoover, Hitler, McCain what's the diff.

Lew Barrett
04-09-2013, 02:19 PM
Seems foreign to us, with our two party system; but Germany had dozens of active political parties pre-1925 and still quite few until 1933.

In the European tradition of parliamentary governing, more or less. There are benefits to be sure, but the ascent of a minority interest to preeminent power is not among them. Hitler was appointed, never elected. For what it's worth, you and I are in total agreement. Not unusual lately.

Lew Barrett
04-09-2013, 02:22 PM
Hoover, Hitler, McCain what's the diff.

Here we have the implementation of Godwin's law about to reenter the picture!
(Not to suggest I'm a fan of any of your examples, though:))

I have to think McCain would not have set up concentration camps for his opponents, and that Hoover was mostly just dumb (with a major helping of hubris).
Today, control is exercised in more subtle ways.

Nicholas Carey
04-09-2013, 02:28 PM
They have a defense which they call Goddard's law or something. It's a specific prohibition of drawing any parallels between the Nazis and anything.

Godwin's Law (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html): "As a USENET discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

See also Mike Godwin hisself on the topic at http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html

Phillip Allen
04-09-2013, 02:36 PM
: "As a USENET discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

See also Mike Godwin hisself on the topic at [url]http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html ("http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html"Godwin's Law[/url)

why?

bogdog
04-09-2013, 02:49 PM
: "As a USENET discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

See also Mike Godwin hisself on the topic at [URL]http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/2.10/godwin.if_pr.html ("http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/G/Godwins-Law.html"Godwin's Law[/url)

We have this problem on ornithology lists all the time...splitters, lumpers, it's just horrible as bad as political redistricting. Bunch of angry bird nazis.

Osborne Russell
04-09-2013, 03:00 PM
That's because Hitler and the Nazi party were socialists and "they" don't like that fact.
It's a big dark cloud hanging over their agenda that they just can't shake.

Can't shake it because it's imaginary. You people are like terriers with a sock puppet that they think is a rat. Soaked with saliva and chewed to hell -- but it's still not a rat.

Liberals talk about Hitler all the time, and it's the right that objects. So you've got that wrong as well.

Osborne Russell
04-09-2013, 03:02 PM
Holocaust Rememberance means Never Forget. But that assumes that you knew something in the first place.

Lew Barrett
04-09-2013, 11:21 PM
Can't shake it because it's imaginary. You people are like terriers with a sock puppet that they think is a rat. Soaked with saliva and chewed to hell -- but it's still not a rat.

Liberals talk about Hitler all the time, and it's the right that objects. So you've got that wrong as well.

He's had it wrong from the start, but note, he hasn't been back to argue his points. It's pretty hard to find credible substantiating evidence that the Nazis were socialists, so once the rant's over, it's over. Maybe we'll be informed that it was all a troll to get our hackles up and how funny it all was. That's usually the final blow.

We sure did a fine job remembering the Holocaust.

Nicholas Carey
04-10-2013, 12:30 AM
He's had it wrong from the start, but note, he hasn't been back to argue his points. It's pretty hard to find credible substantiating evidence that the Nazis were socialists, so once the rant's over, it's over. Maybe we'll be informed that it was all a troll to get our hackles up and how funny it all was. That's usually the final blow.

We sure did a fine job remembering the Holocaust.

My mother was telling me just this past weekend about leaving Latvia. They boarded a refugee ship in Liepaja in 1943, leaving on the wharf a horse and wagon that had been issued to my grandfather by the Latvian National Guard — along with pretty much all their earthly possessions. My grandfather was in the Latvian National Guard, and educated, so he was pretty much on the kill list. As they left Liepaja, the Russians bombed the port. They spent 3 days in transit to Danzig (6 hour drive from Liepaja?) as the ship was evading the Russian subs that were torpedoing refugee ships.

On arrival in Danzig — they had relatives in Poland who had arranged travel papers — they took train for the south of Poland to get to the relatives, not realizing that it was carrying Jews bound for Auschwitz. My mother vividly remembers the stop at Auschwitz and in particular the Arbeit Macht Frei gate. not to mention the delousing stop — forced to strip and take a DDT shower under the watchful eye of Wehrmacht soldiers with machine guns.

When I was in high school in Cincinnati, I had a job doing gardening for a gentleman who had survived Bergen-Belsen, Dachau and Auschwitz. He'd escaped from Dachau and spent the winter in a tomb, fed by somebody who apparently cared. After being recaptured, he was sent to Auschwitz, rather than being shot outright. My employer had some problems — PTSD, you'd call it now.

It seems likely that, as a Latvian soldier in German-occupied Latvia, my grandfather may have been forced to participate in a massacre of Jews in their town. My mom tells me he was never the same after that. She's not clear whether he was there and witnessed the Germans shooting the Jews or whether he and his fellow soldiers were forced to participate in some way, lest they wind up with the Jews.

Je me souviens, indeed.

David W Pratt
04-10-2013, 08:14 AM
I've always thought Hitler was sort of a lightning rod to let the Germans pretend he had killed 6 million Jews, not them. Just like McCarthy never blacklisted anyone, and I think was dead when the worst excesses of McCarthyism occurred

Paul Pless
04-10-2013, 09:35 AM
We sure did a fine job remembering the Holocaust.This wasn't the thread for remembering. This was the thread to be astounded at ignorance and revisionism, with petty partisanship thrown in for good measure. Although a few like Chip-Skiff in post #11 made appropriate and moving posts towards a proper remembrance.

'Holidays' have always been too contrived to me for serious thought given to something as big as the Holocaust. What I mean by that is we're supposed to be all solemn over the systematic elimination of the Jews in Europe, but where is our holiday for those that died at Nanking, or in the Congo, or the Khurds in Northern Iraq and Southern Turkey, or those that were massacred in the 'Killing Fields'. . .

I 'remember' the Holocaust when I hear a survivor tell her story (whether live or recorded) or I see an image from the death or slave camps, or I recall at age ten or so my dad pulling me aside to explain to me the numbers tattooed on his friend's arm, which I had just noticed. . .

Osborne Russell
04-30-2013, 11:30 AM
He's had it wrong from the start, but note, he hasn't been back to argue his points. It's pretty hard to find credible substantiating evidence that the Nazis were socialists, so once the rant's over, it's over. Maybe we'll be informed that it was all a troll to get our hackles up and how funny it all was. That's usually the final blow.

We sure did a fine job remembering the Holocaust.

He's gone altogether.

Osborne Russell
04-30-2013, 11:32 AM
This wasn't the thread for remembering. This was the thread to be astounded at ignorance and revisionism, with petty partisanship thrown in for good measure.

We honor the victims' memory by smacking down the revisionists.

David W Pratt
04-30-2013, 02:14 PM
I remember, back in the late '60s, being in line at a post office on the lower east side in NYC, and seeing an elderly woman in front of me with a number tatooed on her right forearm

bamamick
04-30-2013, 02:22 PM
My youngest has been to the Holocaust Museum. I am not sure I could do it, but she did and told me about how deeply it touched her. She is a lot more brave than am I.

I have visited the former site of a synagogue in Bochum, Germany on the anniversary of Kristal Nacht and seen the hundreds of bouquets of flowers and the cards and the letters of regret and sympathy. A young German I worked with once asked me how long his country would have to pay for what the Nazis did. My response was 'forever'. It was like I had slapped him in the face.

Mickey Lake

John of Phoenix
04-30-2013, 02:35 PM
My response was 'forever'. It was like I had slapped him in the face.I wonder what he expected as an answer. "A year for every person murdered - eleven million and several hundreds of thousands of years. Would that seem fair?"

bogdog
04-30-2013, 02:41 PM
I wonder what he expected as an answer. "A year for every person murdered - eleven million and several hundreds of thousands of years. Would that seem fair?"That sounds fair, but just for my wife's family...

John of Phoenix
04-30-2013, 03:02 PM
I visited the museum several years ago and was struck by the silence - thousands of people and absolute silence throughout the museum.

Artifacts (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/media_list.php?MediaType=af)from the US Holocaust Museum.

alvin greenwood
04-30-2013, 03:08 PM
My wife's grandfather was a activist in nazi Germany and had to flee to America, the Family that was left went to the camps and were never heard from again, He was a author and wrote a book about nazi Germany.

.Because I Love Thee, Fatherland:The "German American Patriot" Denouncing Nazi Anti-Semitismhttp://books.google.com/googlebooks/images/no_cover_thumb.gif

Hermann Brandau (http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=inauthor:%22Hermann+Brandau%22)
0 Reviews (http://books.google.com/books?id=PwQ1ygAACAAJ&sitesec=reviews)
C. Schurz Publishing Company, 1936 - Antisemitism (http://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=subject:%22Antisemitism%22&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0) - 47 pages

bogdog
04-30-2013, 03:30 PM
This is what happened to one of my wife's uncles, Prof. Dr. Antoni Cieszyński http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Lviv_professors. The Nazi's allies, the Soviets, killed about 50% of the family before the Nazi's finished them off at Auschwitz during and after the Warsaw Uprising.

WX
04-30-2013, 04:45 PM
You've never read the Cliff Notes to Mein Kampf, have you? Hitler never made such promises, explicitly nor implicitly. Hitler's appeal was primarily one of nationalism to the masses of Germans and racism to the core of the Nazi party. Hitler's promises early were elimination of the Jewish Financiers and Jewish meddling within the borders of Germany and later "the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!" He also promised early the rise of Germany as the dominate nation in Europe in control of its own destiny and later the expansion of Germany's territorial claims and the rise of Germans as the so called Aryan Race.
All opposition quietly disappeared, hecklers at rallies were taken away and so it began. After the July 44 plot it became virtually impossible to do or say anything negative about Hitler or the Party. There was an attempted uprising on Cologne in 1945 but it was crushed before the US troops could get there. The last few months were the worst for German civilians. Or for anyone caught up in the nightmare.

Meli
04-30-2013, 05:16 PM
the way he came to power was by promising everyone a piece of his neighbor's property... socialism

Horse feathers

Thanks to gUtenberg, here is a translation of Mein Kamfp.

read it.

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks02/0200601.txt