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View Full Version : One effect of the federalization of public education



Osborne Russell
04-01-2013, 12:37 PM
. . . is that you can much more easily be indicted as a racketeer for stealing federal money.

Former Atlanta Superintendent and a raft of flunkies going down hard for inflating test scores to get fed money per No Child Left Behind. Not just fraud, but racketeering.

How wrenching to realize that this isn't something you can fix by flying into the state capitol and going to a couple of cocktail parties; in fact, if you do, it may help convict you; and without really big money, you're not going to touch a federal judge or a federal jury. The world turned upside down !

Next one that says "I think we need to focus on the children" gets shot in the head.

BrianW
04-01-2013, 01:32 PM
Next one that says "I think we need to focus on the children" gets shot in the head.

Careful...


Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:42pm EST


http://pdf.reuters.com/htmlnews/8knews.asp?i=43059c3bf0e37541&u=urn:newsml:reuters.com:20130213:nBw136153a WASHINGTON--(Business Wire)-- Last night, President Barack Obama urged America to "come together to protect our most precious resource-our children."

Osborne Russell
04-01-2013, 07:54 PM
In context, I mean. Speaking of which, how did you happen to have that at your fingertips?

tizziec
04-01-2013, 08:57 PM
Eh, my kid's school doesn't inflate scores, but they do spend every waking moment of school either teaching a specific test, or how to guess well on multiple guess tests.. just as distgusting IMO

Waddie
04-01-2013, 11:18 PM
Eh, my kid's school doesn't inflate scores, but they do spend every waking moment of school either teaching a specific test, or how to guess well on multiple guess tests.. just as distgusting IMO

My oldest son teaches 5th grade. His district does the national standardized test in April. They are always teaching to the test, but from around Christmas break until April it is super-intense. (And, btw, that is why they've dropped most music and fine arts - and now have only one recess - to concentrate on the testing). But when the testing process is over (takes about a week and a half) the kids are DONE with school. They know the test is over, the parents know, and the teachers know. Not much gets done the rest of the year. But their test scores are great !! Of course, they lose much of it by the time school rolls around again in the fall. So the process starts over...........

regards,
Waddie

tizziec
04-02-2013, 07:09 AM
what cracks me up most, is that once the test is done and over in early May... there is no more homework, and they don't seem to do much of anything at all after that!

It also kills me that they are in walking distance to so many opportunities to learn (museum, arts, environmental) and she hasn't been on a class trip of any sort in 3 years now. So sad!

I live in an affluent area too, where people are suckered into moving because they think the schools will be good HA!!! Many of them very much regret leaving their less affluent districts after a year here, but end up stuck.

6th grade now, and still waiting for that first book report, and the only diarama she did was for her own fun at home! No posters in two years (I would know cuz I am the one who has to go buy all the stuff) The only thing close to fun she has done was last year's wax museum, in which I was stuck trying to figure out how to tactfully and tastefully (and within the politically correct) dress and transform my little irish girl into Ruby Ridges... one of the first black girls to go to public desegregation school... Kinda wanted to smack her teacher for letting her pick that book for that project. Love that she read the story, hated explaining why she wasn't allowed to make herself "black" with face paint... erg

Waddie
04-02-2013, 09:51 AM
what cracks me up most, is that once the test is done and over in early May... there is no more homework, and they don't seem to do much of anything at all after that!

It also kills me that they are in walking distance to so many opportunities to learn (museum, arts, environmental) and she hasn't been on a class trip of any sort in 3 years now. So sad!

I live in an affluent area too, where people are suckered into moving because they think the schools will be good HA!!! Many of them very much regret leaving their less affluent districts after a year here, but end up stuck.

6th grade now, and still waiting for that first book report, and the only diarama she did was for her own fun at home! No posters in two years (I would know cuz I am the one who has to go buy all the stuff) The only thing close to fun she has done was last year's wax museum, in which I was stuck trying to figure out how to tactfully and tastefully (and within the politically correct) dress and transform my little irish girl into Ruby Ridges... one of the first black girls to go to public desegregation school... Kinda wanted to smack her teacher for letting her pick that book for that project. Love that she read the story, hated explaining why she wasn't allowed to make herself "black" with face paint... erg

At my son's school (also in a very affluent district) there is a huge buildup of activities, posters, parental contact, yard signs in front of the schools along the drive, culminating in a big pep rally the day before the testing begins. Teachers, and even the principal promise lots of wacky stunts, campy skits are performed, and in general an attempt to rev up the students for the test. Well, it works, but often too well. My son says he gets complaints from students that they feel like throwing up before the test begins...he has a few that totally freeze up, and more than a few call in sick. To be fair , the majority of students can manage to shrug off the stress and perform normally under the circumstances. And as we spoke of before, once that testing is done, the school year is over.....

regards,
Waddie

Gerarddm
04-02-2013, 09:57 AM
If you think our test regime is bad, go to China. There was a chilling, heartbreaking story last year about a Chinese 6th grader who wrote that if he did not do well on the upcoming exam, a cascading series of misfortune would result leading up to China's place in the world being lost. now THAT is cultural indoctrination for you.

tizziec
04-02-2013, 12:09 PM
At my son's school (also in a very affluent district) there is a huge buildup of activities, posters, parental contact, yard signs in front of the schools along the drive, culminating in a big pep rally the day before the testing begins. Teachers, and even the principal promise lots of wacky stunts, campy skits are performed, and in general an attempt to rev up the students for the test. Well, it works, but often too well. My son says he gets complaints from students that they feel like throwing up before the test begins...he has a few that totally freeze up, and more than a few call in sick. To be fair , the majority of students can manage to shrug off the stress and perform normally under the circumstances. And as we spoke of before, once that testing is done, the school year is over.....

regards,
Waddie

Eh, my kid was sweatin it in 2nd grade (first year practice) so i leveled with her... our state test has absolutely zero direct effect on the student (outside of the school trying to base the algebra placement and their fake G&T program on them when they aren't supposed to). All the test does is tell teh state how the school is doing, and they she shouldn't sweat it. Every year they offer tutoring for her based on the test. I ask why she needs tutoring, when her grades average A or B when she does her homework?

I don't think I would care if she used the test circles to practice some kind of abstract art. I don't look at her scores, I just look at what she does in class, at home, and what sheknows when I ask her.

I think her school is crap and if they get called on that, all the better

Waddie
04-02-2013, 12:30 PM
It's not like the national standardized test they take in April is the only one - they also have a state mandated standardized test and a local "assessment", each at some time during the year. They just make the most noise over the national test. And that doesn't even count the various types of "placement" tests a child may be asked to take, and all the regular classroom tests on top of that. My son feels that we could learn how students are progressing with about 1/3 the amount of testing currently undertaken. Let's not forget that testing is also now a big industry.

Having taught in both inner city and very affluent districts, here is his take on testing results. Inner city kids are probably smarter than they appear on national tests because there is little pressure to do well. There is little parental involvement and virtually no peer pressure. Affluent kids try a lot harder, as they do on most academic subjects, because when they're younger they have parental pressure to do well, and when they get older they have peer pressure to do well. (Nobody wants to be the dumb one in class). Between not caring, and caring too much; finding the right balance of incentive and the right amount of pressure is a delicate balance. Both inner city and affluent districts only seem to be able to take it to the opposite extremes.

regards,
Waddie

tizziec
04-02-2013, 01:53 PM
Geez, the only one i ever hear about or see my kid practice is the state test (every single stinkin ever lovin reading or grammar test she has taken since 2nd grade has been the exact same thing out of a NJASK format book!) when I complained, haaa... this cracked me thehell up, the superintendent had the teachers block out the "NJ ASK Format" words from teh front of the test because yes, I live in a perpetual vegetative state and will be fooled by that!

BTW, I pretty much stopped speaking to the administration after that... I honestly didn't know how to react to it LMAO

John Smith
04-02-2013, 03:02 PM
I don't know how to improve our system. I doubt student learning lends itself to easy, mass productive measures.

I don't know why public education ends the same place it did when I was a kid, since everyone says we need more than that now.

I do know that cheating is the American way. If teachers are to be judged on how well a child does on a specific test, the teacher will find a way to help the child score better on that test.

Funny thing about children: the "experts" on raising them tend not to have any. I wonder how many "experts" on educating them have spend much time in front of a class of kids who would rather be doing something else.

Waddie
04-02-2013, 03:28 PM
John Smith;3744893]I don't know how to improve our system. I doubt student learning lends itself to easy, mass productive measures.
I don't know why public education ends the same place it did when I was a kid, since everyone says we need more than that now.

Funny you should bring that up. While an undergrad in college, my youngest son conducted a four year research project as part of the honors program. He presented his findings at a national teacher's convention and to several local groups. (Yeah, I'm proud of him) His project was to determine the extent of summer learning loss. What he found, and documented, was that minority/low socio-economic students pretty much stayed on par with their affluent peers through the last three quarters of the school year, but lost much more than the affluent kids did over the summer break. Therefore, the teachers of the minority/low socio-econimic spent the first quarter of the next school year in review; thus increasing the gap - since they were not really covering new material (this study was at the elementary level). This gap increased cumulatively each year. So those kids fell further and further behind. But communities with solid and high participation rate summer reading programs had almost no loss. He also described how a successful summer reading program should be structured, based on the many he studied...... Food for thought.....


I do know that cheating is the American way. If teachers are to be judged on how well a child does on a specific test, the teacher will find a way to help the child score better on that test.

If teacher pay ever is tied to student performance in any serious (high dollar) way, then many teachers will try their best to avoid having the low achievers in their class.


Funny thing about children: the "experts" on raising them tend not to have any. I wonder how many "experts" on educating them have spend much time in front of a class of kids who would rather be doing something else.

Modern school has way too many hours of sitting for boys to be successful.

regards,
Waddie

tizziec
04-02-2013, 04:07 PM
There is only one way to measure the teacher through the student and that is to test the abilities of the student without cmoparring it to any standard, at the beginning of the year, then again at the end, account for learning disabilities or personal issues that would effect performance, then see how far the child came.

Unfortunately, though this is a the best and most effective way to look at both child and teacher, it is also the most expensive way because instead of lumping all children under a spevified standard, it allows for each child to be looked at individually.

John Smith
04-02-2013, 06:26 PM
I seem to remember taking tests. Final exams, too. I'm not sure how else you measure the extent to which a student has learned.

What I believe was different is that not all tests were the same, although I expect the final exam might have been. I also expect the final exam was a smaller factor in final grade than the current standard test is.

Sadly, I further suspect this is another area wherein an honest, fact based discussion is not likely.

Waddie
04-02-2013, 06:31 PM
There is only one way to measure the teacher through the student and that is to test the abilities of the student without cmoparring it to any standard, at the beginning of the year, then again at the end, account for learning disabilities or personal issues that would effect performance, then see how far the child came.

Unfortunately, though this is a the best and most effective way to look at both child and teacher, it is also the most expensive way because instead of lumping all children under a spevified standard, it allows for each child to be looked at individually.

In theory, I agree. But my son has about 23 kids in his class, and about 5 have left while 5 new ones have come in over the year so far. In an inner city school, half of the class might turn over in a year. Schools can be revolving doors. That is partly why scores can be low. Every time a kid goes to a new school they lose a few months progress in the transition as the get adjusted, and the teacher gets to know how they learn best (learning style).

The teachers/counselor/administrators at his school are already planning next year. There a 5 fourth graders coming up to fifth grade that all go to "specials" for writing at the same time, and since he teaches all 5th grade writing he volunteered to take them. Would he have volunteered if having them meant far less pay next year? Probably not, as he has a family of his own to help support.

BTW; I'm not negative on all schools/teachers. Most all of them are great people, good teachers, and try very hard. I think we are just making their job harder by all this extra testing and interference.

regards,
Waddie

Osborne Russell
04-02-2013, 10:30 PM
If teacher pay ever is tied to student performance in any serious (high dollar) way, then many teachers will try their best to avoid having the low achievers in their class.

Yep.




Modern school has way too many hours of sitting for boys to be successful.




Yep.

Osborne Russell
04-02-2013, 10:33 PM
Let's not forget that testing is also now a big industry.

Hence the corruption and racketeering, financed by the federal government.


Inner city kids are probably smarter than they appear on national tests because there is little pressure to do well.

Yep. It's culture, not the teachers.

Breakaway
04-02-2013, 10:50 PM
I do know that cheating is the American way. If teachers are to be judged on how well a child does on a specific test, the teacher will find a way to help the child score better on that test.

This raises an interesting point. Cheating aside, learning how to take tests is as important a skill as learning the subject matter( and as important as learning how to learn), IMO.

The question is: where is the balance? One can score high on a standardized test with only fair subject knowledge if one is an expert test taker. More conventional means of testing seem, at least to me, a better gauge of what the student has actually learned.

For example. My third-grader is taking these tests for the first time in a couple of weeks. Her reading comprehension tests as part of the regular schoolwork require her to read a book,or chapter, and then she is quizzed on knowledge of that reading without the book in front of her. The reading comprehension portion of the standardized test includes the reading material on the page prior to the questions. So she is being taught (rightly so, and I'm helping) to read the piece, look at the questions and then go back and skim for the answers. If she does so, she'll score well--but in so doing she isn't excercising memory, or fact juggling, or how to determine which facts can be ignored and which might be significant. She's learning how to take a test, not "learning."

Kevin

tizziec
04-03-2013, 06:12 AM
This raises an interesting point. Cheating aside, learning how to take tests is as important a skill as learning the subject matter( and as important as learning how to learn), IMO.

The question is: where is the balance? One can score high on a standardized test with only fair subject knowledge if one is an expert test taker. More conventional means of testing seem, at least to me, a better gauge of what the student has actually learned.

For example. My third-grader is taking these tests for the first time in a couple of weeks. Her reading comprehension tests as part of the regular schoolwork require her to read a book,or chapter, and then she is quizzed on knowledge of that reading without the book in front of her. The reading comprehension portion of the standardized test includes the reading material on the page prior to the questions. So she is being taught (rightly so, and I'm helping) to read the piece, look at the questions and then go back and skim for the answers. If she does so, she'll score well--but in so doing she isn't excercising memory, or fact juggling, or how to determine which facts can be ignored and which might be significant. She's learning how to take a test, not "learning."

Kevin


Learning to take a test might be helpdul in the abstract, as in how it effects the general thought process, but test taking is not exactly a helpful craft once one leaves the confines of school and lives the majority of their life test free.

Would it not be better to simply teach a person to think, wherebye they can then learn the silly little tricks naturally?

An example in Math.. NJs math curriculum teaches in addition, not that 2+3=5, but rather that 2+2+1=5. The idea of "doubles" I think it was called. Now this skill of "doubling" is very specifically taught in many of our schools.

The only thing I could think of on this ridiculousness, but the idea that perhaps when given a problem such as 52+57 one my double the 50s and add up to the 9 in their head, coming upwith 109, but it's something that as I recall was never taght, just simply figured out by any student of math.

So as a result, my daughter can double, but it doesn't help her much when she is still has to think about what the simplified math is because she was taught the shortcut rather than the math. Sure, the shortcut may cut down on time needed on the earlier math tests, but it does NOTHING in the way of preparing her for the use ofmath in life.

Watching the poor kid figure out change is enough to make me puke a little in my mouth, but alas, I get in trouble for teaching her real math, because although she can find the correct answers with it, she still fails the tests for using the "old school" procedure.

She was also taught to use a calculator (which is now allowed even in SATs) starting in kindergarten, and when I asked what was up with that... the administration's answer, not joking here nor exagerating... "Well they all have cell phones now and other devices so they will always have a calculator handy anyway"... yes folks, the future is a scary scary place!!!!

tizziec
04-03-2013, 06:21 AM
In theory, I agree. But my son has about 23 kids in his class, and about 5 have left while 5 new ones have come in over the year so far. In an inner city school, half of the class might turn over in a year. Schools can be revolving doors. That is partly why scores can be low. Every time a kid goes to a new school they lose a few months progress in the transition as the get adjusted, and the teacher gets to know how they learn best (learning style).

The teachers/counselor/administrators at his school are already planning next year. There a 5 fourth graders coming up to fifth grade that all go to "specials" for writing at the same time, and since he teaches all 5th grade writing he volunteered to take them. Would he have volunteered if having them meant far less pay next year? Probably not, as he has a family of his own to help support.

BTW; I'm not negative on all schools/teachers. Most all of them are great people, good teachers, and try very hard. I think we are just making their job harder by all this extra testing and interference.

regards,
Waddie

My problem is not with the teachers. Been there done that, I get it. When they are not trapped by a system, they are now trapped by overwork, and being forced to create 5 or more lesson plans for each day to accomodate every child in their classroom.

I suppose states feel that if they standardize curriculums around the test, students will be able to flow more easily from one school to another.

My personal opinion is that if you teach a child to think, give them strong fundamentals, they will be able to move freely and catch up quickly learning based on the context ofthe information given them.

I have been able to sit down with kids who have been relegated to "specials" for writing their entire lives, and not kidding... in less than one week, about 10 minutes a day in study hall, given them the basic fundamentals of outlining, and putting simple outlines into written text, and then seen them suddenly able to properly express themselves in the written word. When I asked them if they had been taught this little secret in 3rd and 4th grade like I had... they replied that no one had ever showed them how to outline their thoughts ever. I showed one teenage girl how to use the outline even for essay questions, in the same way I do for the evil blue book exams in college, and sure enough... the rest of the year she never failed an essay test again (her teachers loved me as she had been written off as a lost cause pretty much). When I explained what did, they said outlining was no longer a part of the curriculum.

Should my daughter ever come home with a writing assignment longer than a 4 sentence paragraph, I will make sure she uses the technique as well.

I don't blame the teachers, they are stuck. I blame a system that has somehow figured that in building a house, the most important step is the attic, while the foundation is no longer essential. Prepare to see all the little houses fall one day

Ian McColgin
04-03-2013, 06:39 AM
tizziec's math example is an interesting example of what happens when one simply 'teaches to the test'. The doubling trick is a nice example of how number theory and set theory can be introduced methodologically by first and second grades but it's only valid if it's just one of multiple ways - and organizing change is a good game for that. Like from a given set of coins arrange a specific amount using the smallest number of coins, using the largest number of coins, etc. It's just a step past learning that 2+3 = 3+2 . . . = 4+1 etc etc.

Different children mature in different ways and different levels. I was actually terrible at this stuff until the fad of "new math" hit when I was in fifth grade (1959). Even then, I happened to be terrific with the logic parts but still poor with making the numbers work. This was made worse by my form of dyslexia. At the same time, I was learning surveying, piloting and astro-navigation from my Dad, learning all sorts of field short-cuts and approxomations. Imagine my joy when I discovered three significant digits and the slide rule!!!

I am not at all sure how or even whether to set standards at younger ages because the individual learning curves for different subject matters and different cognitive skills are so incredibly diverse. Rather than the tests we see, I'd rather a far broader testing system that established an inventory of where a child was at and that did not call if failure to have very uneven accomplishement sets or competencies or whatever you want to call it. Included in these inventories must be material arts (drawing, painting, shaping, "shop", cooking), aural arts (music, poetry), and physical arts (gymnastics, sports, etc.).

Ah well. Dream on.

tizziec
04-03-2013, 06:52 AM
tizziec's math example is an interesting example of what happens when one simply 'teaches to the test'. The doubling trick is a nice example of how number theory and set theory can be introduced methodologically by first and second grades but it's only valid if it's just one of multiple ways - and organizing change is a good game for that. Like from a given set of coins arrange a specific amount using the smallest number of coins, using the largest number of coins, etc. It's just a step past learning that 2+3 = 3+2 . . . = 4+1 etc etc.

Different children mature in different ways and different levels. I was actually terrible at this stuff until the fad of "new math" hit when I was in fifth grade (1959). Even then, I happened to be terrific with the logic parts but still poor with making the numbers work. This was made worse by my form of dyslexia. At the same time, I was learning surveying, piloting and astro-navigation from my Dad, learning all sorts of field short-cuts and approxomations. Imagine my joy when I discovered three significant digits and the slide rule!!!

I am not at all sure how or even whether to set standards at younger ages because the individual learning curves for different subject matters and different cognitive skills are so incredibly diverse. Rather than the tests we see, I'd rather a far broader testing system that established an inventory of where a child was at and that did not call if failure to have very uneven accomplishement sets or competencies or whatever you want to call it. Included in these inventories must be material arts (drawing, painting, shaping, "shop", cooking), aural arts (music, poetry), and physical arts (gymnastics, sports, etc.).

Ah well. Dream on.


the point in the math is that this is how it is taught from the start. The kids are not taught simply that 2+3=5... OMG it's still torture playing dice games with the kid LOL She still can't just look at it and know.

Fundamentals are seeming lost today. Instead of teaching fundamentals in the form of say.. teaching very few fundamental ideas at a young age so that they are prepared to take the next step as it comes, the current mode is to teach as many bits and pieces of as many concepts as can be squished into a day! Teaching 5 year olds how to make change might sound good at the time, but one would thing that learning the simple concept of addition/subrtaction first might be a benefit.

The math jumps from concept to concept so fast that if you don't get it in a week, you're pretty much screwed!

Some say "oh the kids will get bored" well guess what... that's nothing new! Ask someone of any generation if they got bored in school.. they did! Then look into the world and see who has the better grasp in the long run, the ones who suffered through the boredom of learning those fundamentals or the ones who sat through the MTV edit version.

I still have my x's tables at my ,mental finger tips, I can still get through most of Hiawatha and Paul revere's ride, and thanks to an obsession with Tom Lehrer as a kid, I still know the periodic table of elements fairly well :) Eh, my kid still forgets how many days are in each month because her memorization skills SUCK!

John Smith
04-03-2013, 07:08 AM
tizziec's math example is an interesting example of what happens when one simply 'teaches to the test'. The doubling trick is a nice example of how number theory and set theory can be introduced methodologically by first and second grades but it's only valid if it's just one of multiple ways - and organizing change is a good game for that. Like from a given set of coins arrange a specific amount using the smallest number of coins, using the largest number of coins, etc. It's just a step past learning that 2+3 = 3+2 . . . = 4+1 etc etc.

Different children mature in different ways and different levels. I was actually terrible at this stuff until the fad of "new math" hit when I was in fifth grade (1959). Even then, I happened to be terrific with the logic parts but still poor with making the numbers work. This was made worse by my form of dyslexia. At the same time, I was learning surveying, piloting and astro-navigation from my Dad, learning all sorts of field short-cuts and approxomations. Imagine my joy when I discovered three significant digits and the slide rule!!!

I am not at all sure how or even whether to set standards at younger ages because the individual learning curves for different subject matters and different cognitive skills are so incredibly diverse. Rather than the tests we see, I'd rather a far broader testing system that established an inventory of where a child was at and that did not call if failure to have very uneven accomplishement sets or competencies or whatever you want to call it. Included in these inventories must be material arts (drawing, painting, shaping, "shop", cooking), aural arts (music, poetry), and physical arts (gymnastics, sports, etc.).

Ah well. Dream on.

I had several supervisors ask me how to do some math. They knew how to add, subtract, mulitply and divide, but they didn't know which to do in an effort to figure out what was in front of them.

My school days included word problems. Sally went to the store...... and we had to figure out how to figure out whether the big box or the small box was the better prices per unit. I don't recall my kids having so many of those. Apparently the schools my supervisors when to didn't have many of those, either.

Being able to do the division is only part of the equation.

Breakaway
04-03-2013, 08:45 AM
Learning to take a test might be helpdul in the abstract, as in how it effects the general thought process, but test taking is not exactly a helpful craft once one leaves the confines of school and lives the majority of their life test free.

I meant it in the context of learning to use the tools at hand when faced with a task. For instance, its obvious to us to put a tick mark next to obviously wrong multiple choice questions and eliminate them; to refer to the supplied diagrams or text if you are stuck; to look to other questions in which we knew the answer for a clue to the answer we now seek, etc. But kids may need this to be pointed out. ( mine did)

But emphasizing that technique at the expense of, or even equating it with, clear thinking,or fundamentals or whatever it may be called, is the problem. In my view.

Kevin

tizziec
04-03-2013, 08:53 AM
I meant it in the context of learning to use the tools at hand when faced with a task. For instance, its obvious to us to put a tick mark next to obviously wrong multiple choice questions and eliminate them; to refer to the supplied diagrams or text if you are stuck; to look to other questions in which we knew the answer for a clue to the answer we now seek, etc. But kids may need this to be pointed out. ( mine did)

But emphasizing that technique at the expense of, or even equating it with, clear thinking,or fundamentals or whatever it may be called, is the problem. In my view.

Kevin

I think the school had gone too far when my kid could explain to me how she had no clue how to find the correct answer based on the question but had passed her weekly NJASK format reading and grammar test through the test taking guesses. Alas, she had only missed the questions set up to trick, for which I also answered wrong LOL

I do get what you are saying, but after 4 years of weekly NJASK format tests, I think it's time to move on LOL I don't think I even look at them anymore when I get them to sign, as it's the same thing over and over and over and over. I can only imagine how tedious it has become to take the things when I can't even stand to look them over anymore LOL

David W Pratt
04-03-2013, 01:33 PM
Well, I am sure this group is well versed in autobiographies of cruising families. Those narratives are unanimous in the trope that their home schooled kids were at or ahead of their contemporaries when they reentered "normal" society. So amateurs did as well, or better, than certified professionals.

tizziec
04-03-2013, 02:44 PM
Well, I am sure this group is well versed in autobiographies of cruising families. Those narratives are unanimous in the trope that their home schooled kids were at or ahead of their contemporaries when they reentered "normal" society. So amateurs did as well, or better, than certified professionals.

Oh how I would love to do that. but.. 1. NJ does not accept the credibility of online school options 2. I found out when acting as my child's preschool teacher and later substitute teacher, that our personalities do NOT in any way work as student/teacher! Works for some, not others :(

Osborne Russell
04-03-2013, 05:18 PM
Some say that schools educate poorly because education is not their purpose.


Schools train people to be ignorant with style. They give you the equipment you need to be a functional ignoramus . . . they prepare you to be a usable victim for a military-industrial complex that needs manpower. As long as you're just smart enough to do a job, and just dumb enough to swallow what they feed you, you're gonna be all right . . . I believe that schools, mechanically and very specifically, try to breed out any hint of creative thought in the kids that are coming up.

-- Frank Zappa

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXeTSZl-jOU

Reds squawk about brainwashing at the drop of a hat but not in the context of No Child Left Behind, because that was a Chimp initiative. They know higher education is hostile -- though some inroads have been made at the military academies -- so they're looking to make a move on compulsory education. A federal move, that is. Like elsewhere. Like Zappa said -- national security.


The Obama administration has undermined our nation’s security and increased the risk to those who serve by systematically using our nation’s military to advance a liberal social agenda,” FRC President Tony Perkins said in announcing Boykin’s appointment on Monday (July 16).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/family-research-council-hires-controversial-former-army-officer-jerry-boykin/2012/07/18/gJQAbi21tW_story.html

I guess they won't need critical thinking to combat the socialism . . . that's what the propaganda arm of The Squad is for.