Red Oak?

[Daniel T.]

I hear much about white oak, not a lot of talk about red. Is it inferior to white?
Thank you Daniel

[Mrleft8]

Define "inferior".
It depends on the use. For boats, Red Oak is inferior because it has a low resistance to decay. For flooring in your house it is not inferior.

[JimD]

Red oak soaks up water, has a bad reputation for rot but I recall posts in the past from people who have used it and claim the rot issue is exagerated but the consensus is stay away from it for marine uses.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Red an white oak have log thin passages within the grain. Don't remember the technical term but these passages are continuous in red oak and blocked by some natural formation in white oak. If you take a stick of the red about a foot long dip one end in water and blow thru' the passages you will see bubbles at the other end.
Water wicks thru' these passages easily bringing in the microbes that cause decay.
Heretics, who use epoxy to seal the end grain and any other point of possible penetration,use red oak without fear and find they have a considerable weight savings over white oak.
Having said that, I would hesitate to use red oak any place it was immersed for long periods.
Charlie

[Bob Smalser]

You'll see recommendations in older boatbuilding books for red instead of white oak in keels because of white oak's tendency to warp.

But a lot of those boats were only expected to have a 20 year life, so rot wasn't the issue it is in a boat you want your Great grandchildren to enjoy too.

Personally, I prefer good Doug Fir heartwood. Not quite as strong, hard and heavy as oak....but hard and heavy enuf. Relatively cheap, forgiving in drying, straight as a new arrow forever if cut right, available in long clear lengths, and decent rot resistance with good joinery and poison paints bedding faying surfaces like red lead or copper bottom paint.

[ 12-11-2004, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

I used red oak for the seat planking on my skiff. It looks terrific and (despite my moniker - see above) I don't anticipate it being submerged a lot. ;)

My boat also is garage kept (over the mild SWMBO objections) and so is not exposed to weather or being in the water all the time. It depends upon how your boat will be used plus where you are going to put the red oak. I wouldn't use it for the stem or keel, for example.

Another consideration is where the red oak grew. I was told there is a very distinct difference between red oak from the south and from the north. The shorter growing season in the north makes the grain tighter than product from the south.

[Mrleft8]

.... And ofcourse you know, I'm sure, that the closer to the water the Oak plank gets, the whiter it becomes... ;)

[Jack Heinlen]

Red oak is a good choice, preferable in fact, for rudders and centerboards, for the reason Bob says. I imagine, because of the lack of blockage in the pores, it takes on water uniformly whereas white oak doesn't. It has also been used, with mixed success, for framing boats in Maine. If it's an open boat, intended for a short season in cold climes, it works, with a few poisons and finishes thrown in.

I worked on a Hinckley, built in the fifties, a 28 ft. auxiliary, that was framed with red oak, and it was a mess in the framing. Don't use it where fresh water is likely to be trapped, or in a decked boat, for framing.

[Tristan]

Red oak will rot, but it is incredibly strong (and heavy) and at least some red oaks (for example the Live Oak, Quercus virginiana) were used in boat building. Of course salting and other methods were used to try to prevent rotting in such. Some red oaks rot worse than others. It is my impression that the Laurel Oak (also called Water Oak, Q. laurifolia) rots faster and worse than the Live Oak. If you are trying to build a traditional boat with purely traditional methods, a boat that will sit in the water and weather I'd forget red oak, use teak, cedar, white oak, etc., but if you are building using modern methods (marine ply, glass or plastic covered strip planking, exterior ply covered by glass or plastic) with modern coatings and preservatives, then probably red oak is OK. These thoughts are based on some years as an amature builder, not any professional experience. Lowell p. Thomas

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Tristan:


...some red oaks (for example the Live Oak, Quercus virginiana) were used in boat building.

Lowell p. ThomasCorrect me if I'm wrong (and I may be), live oak is in the white oak family. The strongest, heaviest and most dense of all the oaks. Lifespans measured in hundreds of years, whereas red oaks rarely see 80 years before heart rot gets them. Live oak is very durable.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[Thad Van Gilder]

the vascular tissue is the xylem and phloem and the stuff in white oak vascular tissue is called tylose.

Thad

[Venchka]

I told ya'll I might be wrong. Live oak is a group all by itself. Still the strongest and heaviest.

OAK (http://www2.fpl.fs.fed.us/TechSheets/HardwoodNA/htmlDocs/quercussp.html)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

Personally, I prefer good Doug Fir heartwood. Not quite as strong, hard and heavy as oak....but hard and heavy enuf. Relatively cheap, forgiving in drying, straight as a new arrow forever if cut right, available in long clear lengths, and decent rot resistance with good joinery and poison paints bedding faying surfaces like red lead or copper bottom paint.
Good to hear a wood expert talk about DF this way. So often it seems to get badmouthed as notorious for checking and the scapegoat for poor workmanship.

[Thad Van Gilder]

douglas fir keels with a tight, tight grain, are way better than oak for heavy keels and deadwoods. It doesn't check as much.

-Thad

[Tristan]

I stand corrected, Live oak (Quercus virginiana) is, taxonomically, placed with the 30 or so "white" oaks. As for being in a class by itself, it might well be for its use in boat building. I believe it was often used for knees and frames. Lord knows it has some wonderful curves and bends, often grows sideways and twists all to hell and gone. I expect one might have trouble finding a straight 60' length for a keel anywhere (at least around here you would), but that's what the northern White Oak (Quercus alba) was for. By the way, there are more than fifty species of Oak in North America. About 20 are red oaks. Lowell P Thomas

[Tristan]

I love Douglas Fir, but just try to find timbers in South Florida. Even 2 by 4's are next to impossible to find. Lowell P. Thomas

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Tristan:
I love Douglas Fir, but just try to find timbers in South Florida. Even 2 by 4's are next to impossible to find. Lowell P. ThomasGet a trailer or U-HAUL truck. Drive to Raceland, LA. Go to Robichaux Lumber. Ask for Jimmy. Ask him to show you the stacks of doug-fir 12x12's. They are around the corner from the western red cedar and cypress. :D

Robichaux Lumber (http://robichauxlumber.com/)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[Jay Greer]

Red oak is three times more labor intensive than white oak. There is the labor to first install it, coupled with the labor to rip it out when it rots. And, then there is the labor to replace it with the white oak that should have been used in the first place!
Jay Greer

[Tristan]

Concerning red oak and white oak, remember it was white oak that Tom Dooley met his end on: ("This time tomorrow mornin'--reckon where I'll be --Down in some lonesome hollow -- hangin' from a white oak tree.") I never look at a big ol'white oak that I don't think of Tom Dooley ("Pore boy"). Reckon they'd never of hanged him from a paltry ol' red oak! Lowell p. Thomas

[sdowney717]

Plenty of white oak framing in my egg rotted away. Built in 1970, just about all the framing from stern forward 18 ribs all completely shot in the deep bilge. I replaced all of the rotted areas using pressure treated pine. And very happy with all of it.
With Rot it seems to grow logarithmically, so as time goes on, the rot spreads at an accelerating pace.
I made a deck years ago using red oak boards and in 5 yrs it was mulch. Red Oak rots as fast as cheap white pine. I always thought Red Oak would take pressure treatment really well. SO if you could properly treat it, it would be a great wood for building boats.

[Siebert]

I have a friend that has an '67 Cal that needed a new tiller in short order (out for a sail to St Michaels the next day). Too cheap to spend $30 at West Marine for a boat we both pride ourselves in spending more money on beer while sailing than on maintenance and slip fees, I noodled through my shop and found a nice piece of Red Oak. 5 minutes using the old tiller as a pattern I had the new one laid out, 5 minutes on the bandsaw and it was cut out, 20 minutes with the draw knife and sander and we had a tiller. After an enjoyable Sunday on the water, I took it back home, put 5 coats of spar urathane (from the hardware store $4.00/pt) and it looks great and has provided reliable service for 3 seasons. It is strong and stiff and feels good in your hand.

In a location where the wood would be wet much of the time and where you could not treat it with a good preservative like borate, I'd probably not use it. Too porous, will soak up too much water and is more expensive and harder to work than most good spruce / pine / fir options.

[Roger Long]

Red Oak is inherently less resistant to decay. It also has more open grain that lets water in. This may have been a vital difference back when wood was just put in boat untreated. Now that we like to soak the stuff in preservatives, the open grain becomes a plus.

Red Oak is significantly more dimensionally stable. During my short career as a boat builder, we took a very green piece and stuck it behind the shop stove until it was completely dried out. It remained almost perfectly straight.

If it had been White Oak, it would have tied itself into a figure eight knot with whipping on the ends after that treatment.

Put pieces you really don't want to rot into linseed oil and (very carefully) boil them. The water in the oak will boil out. When you let the vat cool off, the vacuum will draw the linseed oil back into the wood. Heat kills the spores, oil seals the wood, the result is almost as good as teak.

(But you can burn your shop down if the linseed oil catches fire.)