PDA

View Full Version : Joe Biden's strategy for a gunfight...



BrianW
03-01-2013, 09:00 AM
"Shoot through the door."

From Field & Stream...


V.P. BIDEN: Well, the way in which we measure it is—I think most scholars would say—is that as long as you have a weapon sufficient to be able to provide your self-defense. I did one of these town-hall meetings on the Internet and one guy said, “Well, what happens when the end days come? What happens when there’s the earthquake? I live in California, and I have to protect myself.”


I said, “Well, you know, my shotgun will do better for you than your AR-15, because you want to keep someone away from your house, just fire the shotgun through the door.”

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/guns/2013/02/gun-control-joe-biden-interview


Most people can handle a shotgun a hell of a lot better than they can a semiautomatic weapon in terms of both their aim and in terms of their ability to deter people coming.

You've seen the first few seconds... watch the rest.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=DzEd6MNihlg


The gun grabbers point man. :D

Horace
03-01-2013, 09:42 AM
I liked this comment about the video (and Double-Barrel Joe): "I will "buy a shotgun!" When I get the same 24/7 armed security Joe Biden has....Until then I will use my "scary looking assault rifle" thank you..."

I wonder if Joe's "wooded, somewhat secluded" neighborhood is hunted by predators based in the local subsidized housing complex down the road?

Maybe I should carry a double-barreled shotgun around my neighborhood when I walk the dog.

Gerarddm
03-01-2013, 10:01 AM
If it makes you feel better...

Maybe Biden should have specifically recommended .410 shotguns... LOL.

S.V. Airlie
03-01-2013, 10:08 AM
In Biden's comment from a constituent asking how he would protect himself from an earthquake. Biden should have said that a gun is no defense against an earthquake!

Joe Dupere
03-01-2013, 10:37 AM
So, watching the video, I'm left with a question. Clearly the point of the video (in the context of Biden's remarks) is to show how shotguns can be harder for women to handle than the 'assault weapon' in the later clip and are therefore not as safe. I think there was only one scene where the shooting was being done at a range, the rest of them looked like out in the woods or in somebody's back yard. I guess my question is, are the people giving these apparently unprepared women the guns to shoot, supposed to be examples of the well trained, safety concious gun owners the NRA is purported to represent?

I mean, it really looks like a bunch of clips of yahoo gun owners getting a kick out of seeing women getting hurt in various ways from shooting off a firearm.

RichKrough
03-01-2013, 10:42 AM
So now the rebuttal to Joe Biden is that women can't handle a shotgun? That is the most lame-azz argument against a shotgun I ever heard.

Horace
03-01-2013, 10:43 AM
So, watching the video, I'm left with a question. Clearly the point of the video (in the context of Biden's remarks) is to show how shotguns can be harder for women to handle than the 'assault weapon' in the later clip and are therefore not as safe. I think there was only one scene where the shooting was being done at a range, the rest of them looked like out in the woods or in somebody's back yard. I guess my question is, are the people giving these apparently unprepared women the guns to shoot, supposed to be examples of the well trained, safety concious gun owners the NRA is purported to represent?

I mean, it really looks like a bunch of clips of yahoo gun owners getting a kick out of seeing women getting hurt in various ways from shooting off a firearm.So write a book on the proper technique of using the double-barrel shotgun as a weapon of self-defense. I'm sure you'll be able to retire on the proceeds.

bogdog
03-01-2013, 11:35 AM
I may be missing the point but my wife can handle a shotgun just fine. Her only problem would be choosing which one of her's she'd want to use, one of the semi-autos, one of the pumps, 20 ga. or 12 ga. I'm thinking she'd use her BPS Upland in the house. A custom stock makes all the difference in how well a small 5ft woman handles a gun not to mention proper gun handling instruction.

I'd never let a family member, friend, acquaintance or stranger shoot a gun in my presence if I wasn't sure they and everybody else nearby was safe. I find those types of videos about as funny as watching someone do a face plant into the pavement on AFV.

Phillip Allen
03-01-2013, 11:59 AM
Ya know, I get in trouble here all the time for making broad statements... that said, some of our 'not so expert' experts here can't make any statements about guns EXCEPT general statements... some begin like: "Women can't... "
others make broad statements about the usefulness of this or that rifle, shotgun or handgun... in the end and because of their generality, they end up sounding pretty uninformed... and THAT is my general statement.

ljb5
03-01-2013, 11:59 AM
The first step, I think, is for people to be honest with themselves about what they need a gun for an how they will use it.

Home defense is not the same thing as tactical assault.

If someone is trying to break into your house, you're not going to be running arround like the Seal Team in Zero Dark Thirty.

Most people are not even capable of doing theat, so they shouldn't be using the same tools and tactics.

For anyone who is seriously concerned about home defense, your best strategy is probably to hide in a closet with a cell phone and a shot gun.

It's all about setting realistic goals. Realistically, you're not going to be able to defend the whole house against all attackers. Your goal should be to defend the most import things as securely as possible. That means a small perimeter of defense and no moving out in the open.

Phillip Allen
03-01-2013, 12:02 PM
The first step, I think, is for people to be honest with themselves about what they need a gun for an how they will use it.

Home defense is not the same thing as tactical assault.

If someone is trying to break into your house, you're not going to be running arround like the Seal Team in Zero Dark Thirty.

Most people are not even capable of doing theat, so they shouldn't be using the same tools and tactics.

For anyone who is seriously concerned about home defense, your best strategy is probably to hide in a closet with a cell phone and a shot gun.

It's all about setting realistic goals. Realistically, you're not going to be able to defend the whole house against all attackers. Your goal should be to defend the most import things as securely as possible. That means a small perimeter of defense and no moving out in the open.

in that sentence there are volumes... and I agree with lj on that particular thought

Horace
03-01-2013, 12:38 PM
The first step, I think, is for people to be honest with themselves about what they need a gun for an how they will use it.

Home defense is not the same thing as tactical assault.

If someone is trying to break into your house, you're not going to be running arround like the Seal Team in Zero Dark Thirty.

Most people are not even capable of doing theat, so they shouldn't be using the same tools and tactics.

For anyone who is seriously concerned about home defense, your best strategy is probably to hide in a closet with a cell phone and a shot gun.

It's all about setting realistic goals. Realistically, you're not going to be able to defend the whole house against all attackers. Your goal should be to defend the most import things as securely as possible. That means a small perimeter of defense and no moving out in the open.I agree with your post except for this:

"[Y]our best strategy is probably to hide in a closet with a cell phone and a shot gun."

Unless you're planning to crouch behind the door in the pose of a Masai with a spear awaiting the lion charge, a (legal-length) shotgun in a closet may not be the correct choice.

A pistol is the best weapon for self-defense within the close confines of the home.

Phillip Allen
03-01-2013, 12:39 PM
I agree with your post except for this:

"[Y]our best strategy is probably to hide in a closet with a cell phone and a shot gun."

Unless you're planning to crouch behind the door in the pose of a Masai with a spear awaiting the lion charge, a (legal-length) shotgun in a closet may not be the correct choice.

A pistol is the best weapon for self-defense within the close confines of the home.

too many variables... what if it's a McMansion with huge closets? :)

Horace
03-01-2013, 12:41 PM
You mean like what you and I live in? ;)

Keith Wilson
03-01-2013, 12:46 PM
The first step, I think, is for people to be honest with themselves about what they need a gun for an how they will use it.
In that sentence there are volumes... and I agree with lj on that particular thought.Lordy. I think the Second Coming is at hand, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb . . .

If people were honest, they would admit that for the vast majority of us, using a gun in self-defense is pure fantasy; it will almost certainly never happen. The real point is to make one feel more secure and sleep better at night. That's OK.

Phillip Allen
03-01-2013, 12:49 PM
Lordy. I think the Second Coming is at hand, and the lion shall lie down with the lamb . . .

If people were honest, they would admit that for the vast majority of us, using a gun in self-defense is pure fantasy; it will almost certainly never happen. The real point is to make one feel more secure and sleep better at night. That's OK.

I keep firearms but none are ready to fire... I've had years to think about it and I'd rather defend myself with a club because I can always stop hitting but it's damn hard to unshoot anyone

ljb5
03-01-2013, 01:13 PM
Unless you're planning to crouch behind the door in the pose of a Masai with a spear awaiting the lion charge, a (legal-length) shotgun in a closet may not be the correct choice.

Well, I guess it depends on how much clutter you have in the closet, but I still think the shotgun is a better tool. A lot of people fumble a pistol when in a panic. A shotgun is easier to keep your hands on, requires less aiming and will scare the bejeezus out of anyone, even if you miss.

Even if it only gives you two shots, I doubt many home invaders are going to take a gamble on how long it takes you to reload. I bet they start running after the first shot and never look back.

But with either the shotgun or the pistol, the first step is to go hide in a closet. That's a tactic: controlling the area around you and eliminating unnecessary factors.

If you think you're going to be doing a lot of running, jump, diving and chasing, you're exposing yourself to unnecessary risk. It's not paintball. You don't need the same tactics. You shouldn't want the same tools.

Also, security doors and locks on the windows are a great idea. Anyone who buys a gun for home defense but doesn't have a security door is putting the cart before the horse.

BrianY
03-01-2013, 01:14 PM
A couple of serious questions because I seriously do not know.....

From my perspective as a non-gun user, it appears that for home defense purposes, a hand gun and a shot gun have distinct advantages over an AR15 and similar weapons.

A hand gun is convenient to pull out (you can keep it in a bedside drawer for example) and in the close quarters of a home seems to me to be easier to manouever and aim. The downside is that you have to actually hit the person you're shooting at which may not be easy in such a stressful situation.

a shot gun lacks the ease of access of a handgun but you don't have to be very accurate to have a deterrent effect on your target. I guess the downside is that you're more likely to take out a significant chunk of your home in the process, but when it comes to saving your life or your family's lives, that seems to be a minor consideration.

With a rifle, you have the disadvantages of mobilty and ease of aiming in a confined area along with the need to shoot more accurately under stress in order to take out the target.

My question is this: Are my assements above generally correct? If so, why would anyone choose a rifle over a hand gun or shot gun for home protection use? What am I missing?

bogdog
03-01-2013, 01:26 PM
The first step is to switch your locking interior doors around so they open outwards from the rooms where you might likely be during a break-in. It's more difficult to pull a door open and harder to kick a door in that butts up to a jam put in with extra long screws. And of course there is always the safe room...plans from FEMA. Ours is on the first floor.

Iceboy
03-01-2013, 01:48 PM
Well Brian, here are my thoughts on the subject.

I use a handgun because that is what I am comfortable with. I can easily store it safely. I am very familiar with it's use as I carry it daily and fire it regularly. You can get safety slugs that disintegrate in drywall if you are worried about your neighbors or other occupants in the building.

A shotgun will work just fine if you are familiar with it. ljb is correct in the fact that you won't be running or jumping around in a situation. One thing that he and most everyone else has wrong is that the sound of a shotgun going off will make people run. Sound is not the issue. A 45 going off in a closed room is just as deafening and frightening. You won't be passing a hearing test in the morning. You also won't be needing buckshot for this. A good bird load at less than 10 yards will be sufficient. Once again use the firearm that you are most familiar with as you most likely will have little time to think about anything much less where the safety is or if it is loaded. If you are not very familiar with it you should just leave it in your gun safe until you are.

A rifle is impractical in a home defense situation for the most part. If however it is all that you have you can make do with reduced loads or frangible bullets.

I also disagree with the hiding in a closet scenario. Backing one's self into a corner with no room to manuever or manipulate the action is always a bad choice. You have already decided at this point to defend yourself so that decision should afford you the best possibility for survival. Pick your ground. Do not let the other party to make that decision. Anywhere that gives you the most separation is the best. A stairwell is about the best if you are on the second floor.

I never used to think about these things until I was put into some bad situations. Since then I always have a plan. I am not paranoid or afraid just cautious. In my home two dogs and all bedrooms on the second floor with fire ladders in each are my first lines of defense now. If anyone should get as far as me having to defend myself now they would have to be fairly determined and that is thier decision not mine.

Horace
03-01-2013, 02:28 PM
...I use a handgun because that is what I am comfortable with. I can easily store it safely. I am very familiar with it's use as I carry it daily and fire it regularly. You can get safety slugs that disintegrate in drywall if you are worried about your neighbors or other occupants in the building.

A shotgun will work just fine if you are familiar with it. ljb is correct in the fact that you won't be running or jumping around in a situation. One thing that he and most everyone else has wrong is that the sound of a shotgun going off will make people run. Sound is not the issue. A 45 going off in a closed room is just as deafening and frightening. You won't be passing a hearing test in the morning. You also won't be needing buckshot for this. A good bird load at less than 10 yards will be sufficient. Once again use the firearm that you are most familiar with as you most likely will have little time to think about anything much less where the safety is or if it is loaded. If you are not very familiar with it you should just leave it in your gun safe until you are.

A rifle is impractical in a home defense situation for the most part. If however it is all that you have you can make do with reduced loads or frangible bullets.

I also disagree with the hiding in a closet scenario. Backing one's self into a corner with no room to manuever or manipulate the action is always a bad choice. You have already decided at this point to defend yourself so that decision should afford you the best possibility for survival. Pick your ground. Do not let the other party to make that decision. Anywhere that gives you the most separation is the best. A stairwell is about the best if you are on the second floor.You're correct about closets and choosing your ground. (Being behind a door in a confined space didn't help Reeva Steenkamp.)
In my state (which lacks a "stand your ground" law), retreat to the farthest possible place is a legal requirement--but it shouldn't take precedence over survival.


I never used to think about these things until I was put into some bad situations. Since then I always have a plan. I am not paranoid or afraid just cautious. In my home two dogs and all bedrooms on the second floor with fire ladders in each are my first lines of defense now. If anyone should get as far as me having to defend myself now they would have to be fairly determined and that is their decision not mine.

One should always apply this approach to public places as well, noting nearest and safest exits and remaining alert to surroundings.

Thanks for your well-articulated comments.

bogdog
03-01-2013, 02:36 PM
One should always apply this approach to public places as well, noting nearest and safest exits and remaining alert to surroundings.

Thanks for your well-articulated comments.

Never sit in a public room with your back to the door either, learned that lesson from Wild Bill Hickok.

Phillip Allen
03-01-2013, 05:47 PM
the obvious trouble with these discussions is the tendency for people to want to come up with a 'one plan fits all'... not a very good idea

alvin greenwood
03-01-2013, 05:57 PM
I would no more give my wife a shotgun any more then she would let me decorate the house.

S.V. Airlie
03-01-2013, 06:18 PM
Why? Do you not think she is smart enough to learn how to shoot? Oh I got it, you're worried about yourself. Just don't piss her off Alvin and you will be okay.

ccmanuals
03-01-2013, 06:33 PM
I told my wife that, if possible, always grab the car keys and hit the alarms on both cars, before going into the closet with phone and my old 20 gauge pump.

Keith Wilson
03-01-2013, 06:39 PM
So how many of you have actually had to do this? (i.e. defend yourself against armed brigands breaking into your house.)

McMike
03-01-2013, 06:41 PM
So how many of you have actually had to do this? (i.e. defend yourself against armed brigands breaking into your house.)

I can't wait to here the BS.

Keith Wilson
03-01-2013, 06:51 PM
Human beings aren't very good at evaluating the risk from things that have a very small chance of happening, yet would be very bad if they did. Our minds are built to evaluate risks like "If I go down to the water hole at sunset, there's a chance the tiger will get me" - where the odds are about, say, one in ten. Odds of 1:10,000,000 don't compute. I think most people would vastly overestimate the odds of ever actually needing to defend their home against armed folks breaking in. That said, I don't object to someone having a gun in order to worry less, but it's not the same thing as needing one to defend yourself.

McMike
03-01-2013, 06:53 PM
Human beings aren't very good at evaluating the risk from things that have a very small chance of happening, yet would be very bad if they did. Our minds are built to evaluate risks like "If I go down to the water hole at sunset, there's a chance the tiger will get me" - where the odds are about, say, one in ten. Odds of 1:10,000,000 don't compute.


What makes this person so different from everyone else. As far as I know I'm not autistic.

Keith Wilson
03-01-2013, 06:58 PM
I should have said "most people" or, vaguer yet, "many people". Never, ever, ever, make unequivocal statements. :d

PhaseLockedLoop
03-01-2013, 07:09 PM
The shot from a shotgun doesn't spread much in room-size distances. If anyone thinks there's no need to aim a shotgun, they're wrong. You can miss, pretty easily.

htom
03-01-2013, 07:12 PM
So, watching the video, I'm left with a question. Clearly the point of the video (in the context of Biden's remarks) is to show how shotguns can be harder for women to handle than the 'assault weapon' in the later clip and are therefore not as safe. I think there was only one scene where the shooting was being done at a range, the rest of them looked like out in the woods or in somebody's back yard. I guess my question is, are the people giving these apparently unprepared women the guns to shoot, supposed to be examples of the well trained, safety concious gun owners the NRA is purported to represent?

I mean, it really looks like a bunch of clips of yahoo gun owners getting a kick out of seeing women getting hurt in various ways from shooting off a firearm.

I think the idea was showing the foolishness of Joe's stated idea -- just go buy a shotgun and bang away with it.

alvin greenwood
03-01-2013, 07:25 PM
So how many of you have actually had to do this? (i.e. defend yourself against armed brigands breaking into your house.).

I have had the Swedish bikini team break in and try and ab tuck me for "scientific" experiments in mating but they were not armed.

McMike
03-01-2013, 07:27 PM
I think the idea was showing the foolishness of Joe's stated idea -- just go buy a shotgun and bang away with it.


Joe's idea was poorly stated.

The idea that a woman can't fire a shotgun is also ridiculous.

The idea that carrying a handgun makes you safe is laughable considering the damage they inflict on society.

The idea that assault rifles are the problem is also ridiculous but is well balanced by their complete impracticality and unreasonableness in all but a few places in this country.

The gun debate is not complex. It all boils down to grown people choosing to participate in a mass delusion.

TomF
03-01-2013, 07:45 PM
Jesus.

I'm sure that Donn will be here soon to describe how silly it is to presume that women, even petite women, cannot be taught to competently use a shotgun. Donn has told us more than once that he's been a shotgun instructor for some years, and has taught many people shooting safety.

Anybody else here ever shot a shotgun safety as a young teen, well before growing any larger than the smallest of those unfortunate women?

Iceboy
03-01-2013, 07:55 PM
I know of at least three on this forum.
So how many of you have actually had to do this? (i.e. defend yourself against armed brigands breaking into your house.) Edited to add that I have long since moved to safer areas. Still once something bad happens it is really hard to forget.

George Jung
03-01-2013, 07:59 PM
yes. But growing up in an ag community, learning hunting from older friends/dad, allowed that. Situational circumstances sets the tone.

Keith Wilson
03-01-2013, 08:14 PM
I know of at least three on this forum.There has been a truly enormous amount of discussion of how to defend oneself against armed people breaking into your house while you're there. Many people have heard of such incidents, but I was looking for first-hand reports from people who it has actually happened to. I suspect it's extremely rare in most of the US these days, although I could be wrong. Crime rates were a lot higher 20 years ago.

McMike
03-01-2013, 08:16 PM
There has been a truly enormous amount of discussion of how to defend oneself against armed people breaking into your house while you're there. Many people have heard of such incidents, but I was looking for first-hand reports from people who it has actually happened to. I suspect it's extremely rare in most of the US these days, although I could be wrong.

You are not wrong.

htom
03-01-2013, 08:22 PM
So how many of you have actually had to do this? (i.e. defend yourself against armed brigands breaking into your house.)

Once. It was terrifying. Worse, it was undercover cops. Best, no shots fired by anyone and we all survived. The rookie was sure my .308 was a .50 BMG, however. He must have clicked that round into the chamber and ejected it fifty times.

Two other times, I don't know if they were armed or not. Racked a shotgun, they ran and fell down the stairs, yelling "Gun!"

BrianW
03-01-2013, 08:32 PM
Jesus.

I'm sure that Donn will be here soon to describe how silly it is to presume that women, even petite women, cannot be taught to competently use a shotgun.

Yes, you are right, they certainly can be trained correctly.

The video is obviously a series of examples of non-trained women, and what may result if they follow the advice of the Presidents point man on gun control and the advice he gives for women and self-defense.

Some of them are a bit sadistic, some unsafe. Certainly not a NRA approved message.

It does point out that the recoil on many shotguns is a lot more than the recoil from an AR-15. Anyone who has shot both will attest to that fact. In trained hands, an AR15 is going to put it's rounds on target more often than a shotgun blasted in the air or through a door.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-01-2013, 08:36 PM
I liked this comment about the video (and Double-Barrel Joe): "I will "buy a shotgun!" When I get the same 24/7 armed security Joe Biden has....Until then I will use my "scary looking assault rifle" thank you..."

I wonder if Joe's "wooded, somewhat secluded" neighborhood is hunted by predators based in the local subsidized housing complex down the road?

Maybe I should carry a double-barreled shotgun around my neighborhood when I walk the dog.


Yawn.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-01-2013, 08:38 PM
There has been a truly enormous amount of discussion of how to defend oneself against armed people breaking into your house while you're there. Many people have heard of such incidents, but I was looking for first-hand reports from people who it has actually happened to. I suspect it's extremely rare in most of the US these days, although I could be wrong. Crime rates were a lot higher 20 years ago.


I do not know one person that has had an armed home invasion, or even a home invasion. Not one. I know people who have had burglaries, but they weren't home at the time.

Keith Wilson
03-01-2013, 08:43 PM
I do not know one person that has had an armed home invasion, or even a home invasion. Not one.I didn't either until htom's post.

Iceboy
03-01-2013, 08:53 PM
Happened to me twice. I have spoken about it briefly here before. You are correct in that it was twenty years ago for one and 18 for the other.
There has been a truly enormous amount of discussion of how to defend oneself against armed people breaking into your house while you're there. Many people have heard of such incidents, but I was looking for first-hand reports from people who it has actually happened to. I suspect it's extremely rare in most of the US these days, although I could be wrong. Crime rates were a lot higher 20 years ago.

Iceboy
03-01-2013, 08:55 PM
I am Glad for you Peter. I hope you continue to be safe.
I do not know one person that has had an armed home invasion, or even a home invasion. Not one. I know people who have had burglaries, but they weren't home at the time.

alvin greenwood
03-01-2013, 09:32 PM
When i lived in jersey the next door neighbor did not pay his bookie and the bookie came to his house to collect with help, They kicked down the door but the neighbor started shooting at the top of the stairs and the bookie and his buddies returned fire, The battle went out side but no one managed to kill anyone else, I think the neighbor was shot in the leg, The bullets hit our house and when i realized what was going on i told my wife to lay on the floor.

No cops never came.

The landlord told me i saw or heard nothing..

Pretty weird to hear and see a running gunfight, that is if i did......

Shang
03-01-2013, 09:47 PM
So how many of you have actually had to do this? (i.e. defend yourself against armed brigands breaking into your house.)

Well, he turned out to be an I.R.S. examiner
(I buried him in the garden).

ccmanuals
03-01-2013, 09:50 PM
now that's funny

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-01-2013, 09:54 PM
I am Glad for you Peter. I hope you continue to be safe.


I should qualify this. I don't know any law abiding citizen who has had a home invasion. As for my own safety, it is a culture that has been nurtured in my country. We have dangerous people here too. We just handle them differently than America does. (apparently)

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-01-2013, 10:01 PM
I know of at least three on this forum. Edited to add that I have long since moved to safer areas. Still once something bad happens it is really hard to forget.


So, let's see..... 3 out of 33,000 members. That would be .01 percent I think. Translate that into gun ownership in the USA and see if that makes sense.

Horace
03-01-2013, 10:19 PM
So, let's see..... 3 out of 33,000 members. That would be .01 percent I think. Translate that into gun ownership in the USA and see if that makes sense.
Are you saying that's an insignificant number?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-01-2013, 10:20 PM
Are you confused?

Horace
03-01-2013, 10:22 PM
Let me rephrase that--why are you reluctant to answer a plainly stated question?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-01-2013, 10:27 PM
Now now Horace, I may be a lot of things, but stupid I am not.
Yes, it is an insignificant number. Do you know why? Now, this is slightly a trick question. Let's see if you get it.

Horace
03-01-2013, 10:30 PM
No, my dear, I have no idea what you're about. Nor, I think, do you.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-01-2013, 10:40 PM
First you would have to catch the calculation error I threw out there in the original post.

Then you would have to apply that to the number of households.

After that you would have to apply the statistics that separate home invasion from burglary while unoccupied, rape murder or assault premeditated by knowing the victim, or situations created by criminal activity, and come up with a real number.

It would be fairly small.

Perhaps the debate after that was determined, we could talk about successful policing models with adequate funding and staffing levels, followed by what kinds of preemptive legislation could help in that policing. Ooops, there we go, the spectre of gun control once again raises it's statistically positive head :D

hanleyclifford
03-01-2013, 10:45 PM
First you would have to catch the calculation error I threw out there in the original post.

Then you would have to apply that to the number of households.

After that you would have to apply the statistics that separate home invasion from burglary while unoccupied, rape murder or assault premeditated by knowing the victim, or situations created by criminal activity, and come up with a real number.

It would be fairly small.

Perhaps the debate after that was determined, we could talk about successful policing models with adequate funding and staffing levels, followed by what kinds of preemptive legislation could help in that policing. Ooops, there we go, the spectre of gun control once again raises it's statistically positive head :D It's OK, Pierre; this is sorta like a gun thread.:d

Horace
03-01-2013, 10:54 PM
First you would have to catch the calculation error I threw out there in the original post.

Then you would have to apply that to the number of households.

After that you would have to apply the statistics that separate home invasion from burglary while unoccupied, rape murder or assault premeditated by knowing the victim, or situations created by criminal activity, and come up with a real number.

It would be fairly small.

Perhaps the debate after that was determined, we could talk about successful policing models with adequate funding and staffing levels, followed by what kinds of preemptive legislation could help in that policing. Ooops, there we go, the spectre of gun control once again raises it's statistically positive head :DAh, baffling with BS. Catch my drift?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-02-2013, 09:52 AM
If you find the science of statistical analysis and the subsequent governance policy discussion BS, why don't you find another thread that you understand more easily?

As it stands, the mathematical error in the one post already baffled some;)

Ron Williamson
03-02-2013, 12:50 PM
So, let's see..... 3 out of 33,000 members. That would be .01 percent I think. Translate that into gun ownership in the USA and see if that makes sense.

33000 members?
More like an unknown number of people who may or may not choose to respond,truthfully or otherwise.
R

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-02-2013, 02:55 PM
33000 members?
More like an unknown number of people who may or may not choose to respond,truthfully or otherwise.
R


Umm yes, I know


After that you would have to apply the statistics that separate home invasion from burglary while unoccupied, rape murder or assault premeditated by knowing the victim, or situations created by criminal activity, and come up with a real number.

Phillip Allen
03-02-2013, 04:32 PM
"science of statistical analysis and the subsequent governance policy" (this from Peter???)

Peter! You really ought to get that checked... really! Doctors being scientists like yourself, you might expect some professional courtesy and keep the cost down for a scientist's meager budget :):):)

pipefitter
03-02-2013, 05:18 PM
As much as that can be said of not knowing anyone who has had to defend themselves in a home invasion, perhaps even less will have said they witnessed a drive by shooting or public gun handling of any means other than by law enforcement and even that is rare and their guns are visible at all times. Yet these discussions and the media tend to portray a much more widespread instance of such events. Friends from overseas that I have had here were convinced they were going to see armed Americans everywhere walking about. They also had no idea of the scope of how many people there actually are here and how populated that even our outlying areas are once outside of the tourist destinations.

I have been a victim of a home invasion, but thankfully I slept through it. Still weird waking up in the morning and finding the contents of your wallet emptied out on the floor next to your bed. I am ultimately convinced that a person that is either desperate, nervy, or high enough to come into a sleeping man's room was most likely committed to the fact that he may have to commit a homicide in the process. It changed my sleeping habits forever and a gun (I tried that) wasn't any more comforting once I actually went to bed.

Cops said they (two) bumped the locks on my door. Both the deadbolt and the knob with a dummy key. I ended up with a pit bull that was really loyal and protective, with an uncanny knack of knowing good people from questionable ones. The gun, after the fact, was more to protect the dog in the event he would have to confront an invader.

I often wonder what it must be like to live in a country that is largely (comparatively) undeveloped with a population of around 10% of my own. Spread out the population of NY across this lower 48. I am sure it would look/feel entirely different. I also often wonder why those so tuned by facts and statistical information ignore such obvious and basic math on the way to such blanketed and comparative assumptions. It's really amazing we don't see a lot more open instances of violence, especially those of us living in or around a major city.

So, how many have witnessed a gun crime?

S.V. Airlie
03-02-2013, 06:29 PM
Are you saying that's an insignificant number?If you were one of the 0.03%, it would be significant.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-02-2013, 06:38 PM
If you were one of the 0.03%, it would be significant.

Yes, if that were the percentage, that would be three times what we are talking about. I bet if you were part of the 10% that actually read this thread, you wouldn't have made the .03 comment :D


So, how many have witnessed a gun crime?

I have, quite a few times.

S.V. Airlie
03-02-2013, 06:42 PM
Jardine you screw up, you are the formite who brought up the 0.03% here, or are you having a problem with your short term memory?

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-02-2013, 09:43 PM
Where did I mention that figure?

S.V. Airlie
03-02-2013, 09:59 PM
Who knows and who cares. Be it said, that figure was brought up first. That's a fact. Again, I don't give a rat's as-s who said what, when etc.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-02-2013, 10:26 PM
Who knows and who cares. Again, I don't give a rat's as-s who said what, when etc.


Dialogue I can believe in.