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Kaa
02-25-2013, 03:26 PM
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076

Interesting. The claim is that in the XVII century white Irish slaves were actually the most common slaves in some parts of the New World.

Anyone knows anything about it? Do the article's numbers look reasonable or exaggerated?

Kaa

Katherine
02-25-2013, 03:31 PM
I don't know if the numbers are correct, but I had heard some historical accounts of this.

L.W. Baxter
02-25-2013, 03:44 PM
This must be why the Irish are such great ball players!

Ian McColgin
02-25-2013, 03:53 PM
This story got me when it claimed: “The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World. His Proclamation of 1625.”

James II (& VII for Scotland) was born in 1633 and, as second son of Charles I, became king upon the death of his brother, Charles II, in 1685.

'Nuff said about this piece of junk.

There were times of the English enslaving Irish people. Starting with Cromwell's war on the Irish there were massive deportations some to New England but many more to English colonies in the Caribbean. Montsettat had people speaking Gaelic at least to the late 19th century and it's believed by linguists that the unique Jamaican accent was due to the impact of mixing Irish and Negro slaves.

Breakaway
02-25-2013, 05:56 PM
The numbers may be off, but the fact that large numbers of Irish came to the Caribbean as slaves is well documented.

Kevin

J. Dillon
02-25-2013, 06:02 PM
'Nuff said about this piece of junk.

Really Ian, how quickly you label the authors research triggered merely by a date some reviewer probably erred about.;)
JD

Breakaway
02-25-2013, 06:59 PM
She's doesn't hang out here where she might see that, does she?:D

Ian McColgin
02-25-2013, 07:02 PM
You bet. When people falsify dates and events, I get irritated. I have ancestors on both sides of this and I really take umbrage at people who think they can just rant away fact free. I suppose it's possible that the book got it right and somehow the reviewer got it terribly wrong. No excuse. Given how Jame II tried to utilize the Irish in his papist efforts, this is historo-trash. It reminds me of how some of Boston's Southies try to claim that they have been as put upon in the US as blacks. What a pile.

J. Dillon
02-25-2013, 07:14 PM
The Almighty, indeed, sent the blight but the British government sent the Famine.


Click into this site and let it cycle. The Hunger Museum

http://ighm.nfshost.com/

bogdog
02-25-2013, 07:25 PM
My family were Irish "pirates" and slavers out of Philidelphia, respected members of society even though they were Irish. Even Franklin came around. The Irish slaves in the Virginia colony were usually called indentured servants. Just like African slaves they eventually outnumbered the "colonists."

S.V. Airlie
02-25-2013, 07:30 PM
And the Irish joined the army Any country's army. Better conditions in the army than at home. The difference between slaves and indentured servants was that the indentured servants could see freedom in their futures, slaves didn't..

David G
02-25-2013, 07:45 PM
Do you not get it, lads? The Irish are the blacks of Europe. And Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland. And the Northside Dubliners are the blacks of Dublin. So say it once, say it loud: I'm black and I'm proud.

Indeed... apparently the lot of them missed seeing "The Replacements" <G>

David G
02-25-2013, 08:25 PM
Barry - thanks for the correction. Teach me to go from memory!

Oysterhouse
02-25-2013, 08:28 PM
There were white people of Irish descent who owned black slaves in the US. I am not aware of any black people who owned any Irish slaves.

I’m not aware of any either, but I wouldn’t be surprised. It was a different time, and the practice of slavery and servitude was not restricted to only white owners. I find it fascinating that Cherokee Indians owned African Slaves, a lot of slaves.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/655380/posts

Lew Barrett
02-25-2013, 08:52 PM
Really, only the Irish could carry such a chip that they imagine they've had a harder time than anyone in the universe.

To be fair, it's been quite a mess at points along the way.

Larks
02-25-2013, 10:50 PM
Really, only the Irish could carry such a chip that they imagine they've had a harder time than anyone in the universe.

Ian, I generally have some respect for your opinion, but this is a pretty ridiculous comment by anyones standards!!!



(I mean, for goodness sake, if they had such a chip on their shoulders they'd never have allowed Guiness to be sold anywhere outside of Ireland!!!)

bogdog
02-26-2013, 07:55 AM
Posted by Ian McColgin

"There were white people of Irish descent who owned black slaves in the US. I am not aware of any black people who owned any Irish slaves."


I’m not aware of any either, but I wouldn’t be surprised...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/655380/posts

My Irish ancestors owned slaves almost as soon as they got off the boat. My ancestor's brother came to Philadelphia in 1750. He set up a business trading with First Nations in the Ohio Valley. When the business succeeded he brought over my ancestor, his young family, and their sister. He established households for them that included slaves. I found the records for all the slaves my ancestor owned and sold, I suspect a fair number of them were his own children with a "mulatto" slave he owned. In the records slaves were recorded as either "negro" or "mulatto" depending on parentage. He expressed concern for his last slave boy by the name of "Charmount" in his will, hoping he would be sold to a kind owner at his death. Luckily the second generation didn't believe in slavery so the family slaves were manumitted in 1781 at his death. Even the Quakers were freeing their slaves. Of course Pennsylvania was eliminating slavery and there was a hefty tax on slaves that were kept past certain dates.

The transported Irish in the Virginia colony may have been called indentured but their very lives belonged to their masters, they were hunted if they attempted escape and they weren't allowed to practice they religious beliefs.

Ian McColgin
02-26-2013, 08:15 AM
The indentured or otherwise transported English in the colonies were also treated as slaves, hunted if they tried to escape, and all that. Irish slavery in the new world is in no way comperable in extent or lasting impact to our enslaving blacks. Irish suffering at the hands of the English might be as bad as the depopulation of the Highlands happening at almost the same time but if you want suffering, chat with a Pole who survived WWII. This whole Irish special suffering bit is just so much tears in your beers.

Larks
02-26-2013, 08:18 AM
The indentured or otherwise transported English in the colonies were also treated as slaves, hunted if they tried to escape, and all that. Irish slavery in the new world is in no way comperable in extent or lasting impact to our enslaving blacks. Irish suffering at the hands of the English might be as bad as the depopulation of the Highlands happening at almost the same time but if you want suffering, chat with a Pole who survived WWII. This whole Irish special suffering bit is just so much tears in your beers.


Why are you being such a knob about this Ian?

bogdog
02-26-2013, 08:23 AM
I agree completely, my in-laws were two of those Poles. I think the suffering of most of the individuals caught up in that forced servitude was quite similar, unfortunately those that made it out alive to gain their own freedom appear to have imposed the same suffering on others for their own gain.

Ian McColgin
02-26-2013, 08:27 AM
Why are some Irish trying to claim that their suffering in America is in any way comperable to the suffering of blacks in America? And using historical falsehoods and pure imagination to support it !?!?!

The reason I carry on is that I see no reason to let some people get away with racist myth-making.

Larks
02-26-2013, 08:47 AM
You bet. When people falsify dates and events, I get irritated. I have ancestors on both sides of this and I really take umbrage at people who think they can just rant away fact free. I suppose it's possible that the book got it right and somehow the reviewer got it terribly wrong. No excuse. Given how Jame II tried to utilize the Irish in his papist efforts, this is historo-trash. It reminds me of how some of Boston's Southies try to claim that they have been as put upon in the US as blacks. What a pile.

You're sounding somewhat guilty of your own dislike at the moment though Ian. The topic has sparked my interest as it is not something that I'd heard of before and I'd be interested in hearing more Facts on the issue and less of the somewhat insensitive "smack downs".

I have certainly heard of the mistreatment of indentured Irish and Scottish "servants", not in Australia but in New Zealand actually, and I had read a story of such a number of years ago that was quite eye opening and remarkable to the extent that I've not forgotten the images that it portrayed. Although I have forgotten the name of the story, I have a recollection that it may have ben based on real characters but.....??

Kaa
02-26-2013, 10:34 AM
Irish slavery in the new world is in no way comperable in extent or lasting impact to our enslaving blacks.

Ian, maybe you could think a bit about individual people and not about social impact on entire ethnic or racial groups..?

Also, any special reason I should chat with a Pole? And not a Russian, not a Roma, not a Slovak, not, come to think of it, a Jew?

Kaa

bogdog
02-26-2013, 10:46 AM
Ian, maybe you could think a bit about individual people and not about social impact on entire ethnic or racial groups..?

Also, any special reason I should chat with a Pole? And not a Russian, not a Roma, not a Slovak, not, come to think of it, a Jew?

KaaThe Slovaks invaded Poland, Axis allies.

Kaa
02-26-2013, 11:00 AM
The Slovaks invaded Poland, Axis allies.

Invaded Poland? All of 'em? :-D

Note that we are talking about suffering in war.

Kaa

bogdog
02-26-2013, 11:03 AM
Invaded Poland? All of 'em? :-D

Note that we are talking about suffering in war.

Kaa Eventually the Russians brought pain and suffering to everyone regardless of allegiance.

Cuyahoga Chuck
02-26-2013, 12:19 PM
The Slovaks invaded Poland, Axis allies.

Ahoj
The Nazis had a deal with the Slovaks for complete military access to Slovakia in return for a modest amount of self rule. That gave the Nazis access to the passes over the Carpathians from which to attack Poland from the south. Whether or not there were Slovaks in the Nazi train is unknown to me. It is a fact that about 20,000 Slovak Nazis were part of the allied force that aided the 6th Army at Stalingrad but there were as many Slovaks involved in anti-fascist activites all thru the war.
If you have concrete evidence to the contrary lay it out.

do videnia

Cuyahoga Chuck
02-26-2013, 12:30 PM
To get back on thread, it was common practice for white white europeans to VOLUNTARILY submit to servitude for a limited number of years in exchange for training or for some other benefit like transport to a colonia place. In the earliest period of American slavery (pre-1700) slave-holders might have an intermingled cadry of both black and white slaves. One of the reasons laws governing slavery were tightene up in the southern colonies was because freed slaves became numerous and without means of earning a living they turned to banditry.

bogdog
02-26-2013, 12:35 PM
Ahoj
The Nazis had a deal with the Slovaks for complete military access to Slovakia in return for a modest amount of self rule. That gave the Nazis access to the passes over the Carpathians from which to attack Poland from the south. Whether or not there were Slovaks in the Nazi train is unknown to me. It is a fact that about 20,000 Slovak Nazis were part of the allied force that aided the 6th Army at Stalingrad but there were as many Slovaks involved in anti-fascist activites all thru the war.
If you have concrete evidence to the contrary lay it out.

do videnia

It's a well known fact that three divisions of the Slovak Army invaded Poland September 1939. If there is a revisionist view I'd be interested in seeing it if you would care to supply it.

alvin greenwood
02-26-2013, 12:42 PM
My friend was a Czech national hero and general, He hated the nazies with a passion and fought them, He told me towns in Poland they liberated, After fighting the Nazies the Russians sent him to Siberia, Germans recruited from every country,, There were French, Finnish, Swedish, SS troops.

I know for a fact because when i told him of a town that was In Poland he said he Liberated it. I was looking up my ancestors and had names and he pointed out instantly the correct spelling from which my grandparents had Americanized.

bogdog
02-26-2013, 12:47 PM
To get back on thread, it was common practice for white white europeans to VOLUNTARILY submit to servitude for a limited number of years in exchange for training or for some other benefit like transport to a colonia place. In the earliest period of American slavery (pre-1700) slave-holders might have an intermingled cadry of both black and white slaves. One of the reasons laws governing slavery were tightene up in the southern colonies was because freed slaves became numerous and without means of earning a living they turned to banditry.

The Irish in the Virginia colony in the mid to late 1600s were forcibly transported, the large proportion of which were children. Btw the first organized labor strike in the colonies were the Polish glass blowers at Jamestowne.

Kaa
02-26-2013, 12:47 PM
If you have concrete evidence to the contrary lay it out.

do videnia

That was easy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_invasion_of_Poland_%281939%29

Kaa

Chip-skiff
02-26-2013, 01:04 PM
I'll keep out of the fray (for once), and suggest a new book for those interested in the general subject of Irish emigration. I've not received it yet, but I have met the author (a peach) who's a prof at Unity College in Maine.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4Bhud2O_9_0/USQW9eJPprI/AAAAAAAADsE/_pTQU6zikh8/s459/All%2520Standing.jpg

The vessel was one of the infamous "coffin" ships that hauled Irish under dire conditions to various colonies— this particular voyage being notable because not one person died enroute.

alvin greenwood
02-26-2013, 01:24 PM
You bet. When people falsify dates and events, I get irritated. I have ancestors on both sides of this and I really take umbrage at people who think they can just rant away fact free. I suppose it's possible that the book got it right and somehow the reviewer got it terribly wrong. No excuse. Given how Jame II tried to utilize the Irish in his papist efforts, this is historo-trash. It reminds me of how some of Boston's Southies try to claim that they have been as put upon in the US as blacks. What a pile..

Well growing up in NJ i heard the term "black Irish" and shanty town used, Most all my friends were Irish or Italian but the terms still lingered on from the past. All my priests were Irish and most of the Police and firemen were Irish.

Chip-skiff
02-26-2013, 01:35 PM
.

Well growing up in NJ i heard the term "black Irish".

I understood the term to mean those who have dark hair and a ruddy complexion, (cf. cailín dubh) generally identified with Celtic origin, as opposed to those with red or fair hair and light, freckled complexions (cf. cailín rua), often said to be the result of Scandinavian raiding and colonisation. There are qualities attributed to girls of each sort in tales, songs, and jokes. Not sure how true this might be.

Here's an interesting write-up about possible Iberian roots (and don't fecking tell me that Wikipedia isn't accepted in your kid's school, which this is bloodywell not): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Irish

Kaa
02-26-2013, 01:38 PM
I understood the term to mean those who have dark hair and a ruddy complexion, (cf. cailín dubh) generally identified with Celtic origin...

There's also another version that associates the black Irish with the progeny of Spanish sailors who made their way ashore as the Spanish Armada was smashed on the rocks of the Irish coast...

Kaa

Chip-skiff
02-26-2013, 01:42 PM
There's also another version that associates the black Irish with the progeny of Spanish sailors who made their way ashore as the Spanish Armada was smashed on the rocks of the Irish coast...

Not only ashore, but inshore—as it were— to the sweetest harbour of all.

:)

Breakaway
02-26-2013, 01:42 PM
Another myth/legend/fact/factoid states that "black Irish" means the progeny of sailors from the Spanish Armada, who washed ashore when many of their ships apparently wrecked on the Irish coast in the 1580's, and local girls.

Kevin

Breakaway
02-26-2013, 01:43 PM
Sorry, double posted on top of KAA

K

bogdog
02-26-2013, 02:08 PM
I think a number if Irish immigration to the Green Isles theories has the Irish Celts coming from the Iberian peninsula, a more recent and different Celtic group than say the Welsh and Bretons.

Chip-skiff
02-26-2013, 02:24 PM
Another myth/legend/fact/factoid states that "black Irish" means the progeny of sailors from the Spanish Armada, who washed ashore when many of their ships apparently wrecked on the Irish coast in the 1580's, and local girls.

An English slander, I reckon.

(The Irish claim most modern English descended from the snakes driven out of Ireland by St. Patrick.)

alvin greenwood
02-26-2013, 02:27 PM
I understood the term to mean those who have dark hair and a ruddy complexion, (cf. cailín dubh) generally identified with Celtic origin, as opposed to those with red or fair hair and light, freckled complexions (cf. cailín rua), often said to be the result of Scandinavian raiding and colonisation. There are qualities attributed to girls of each sort in tales, songs, and jokes. Not sure how true this might be.

Here's an interesting write-up about possible Iberian roots (and don't fecking tell me that Wikipedia isn't accepted in your kid's school, which this is bloodywell not): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Irish.

LOL hey when i use wiki im told im being sloppy by davidg at any rate the way i heard black Irish was as a slur.

As in that guy is black Irish or he is Shanty town Irish...
Never saw the shanty town or any irish that looked dark so this must have been left over terms

Bob Cleek
02-26-2013, 02:34 PM
I have an Irish slave. I married her.

Lucky you! My wife married an Irish slave!

Cuyahoga Chuck
02-26-2013, 03:46 PM
That was easy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovak_invasion_of_Poland_%281939%29

Kaa

Thanks for the ammunition.
As the the article you posted points out there were Slovaks in the Hungarian Army. When Adm. Horty sided with Hitler he was allowed to move his northern border far north of the Trianon Treat nline of 1920. So those folks became fodder for Horty's Army not not Fr. Tiso's Slovak army.
Next , I disagree with the text as presented.
When Hitler grabbed Czechoslovakia, Poland grabbed a town on the border of the Czech province of Moravia called C'esky Tiesen. C'esky Tiesen was not returned to Poland until the Communist years when the national government of Czechoslovakia traded away some Slovak villages in the Tatra mountains. I have never heard of a Slovak-Poland border dispute except for the grousing about the give away of those dozen or so Slovak vllages.
I'm away from my library so I can't give citations

bogdog
02-26-2013, 04:36 PM
Thanks for the ammunition.
As the the article you posted points out there were Slovaks in the Hungarian Army. When Adm. Horty sided with Hitler he was allowed to move his northern border far north of the Trianon Treat nline of 1920. So those folks became fodder for Horty's Army not not Fr. Tiso's Slovak army.
Next , I disagree with the text as presented.
When Hitler grabbed Czechoslovakia, Poland grabbed a town on the border of the Czech province of Moravia called C'esky Tiesen. C'esky Tiesen was not returned to Poland until the Communist years when the national government of Czechoslovakia traded away some Slovak villages in the Tatra mountains. I have never heard of a Slovak-Poland border dispute except for the grousing about the give away of those dozen or so Slovak vllages.
I'm away from my library so I can't give citations

Not sure where this is going but the Slovaks invaded Poland in September of 1939. I'm sure one could dance around that fact and say it wasn't a "legitimate" Slovakian army. Slovakia seceded from Czechoslovakia in March 1939 to join their allies the Nazis.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-28-2013, 12:17 PM
I respectfully disagree with all the derivations of the term "black Irish" given so far in this thread.

A black Irishman is a Southern (not a northern) Protestant - dubh means "very" as well as "black".

See eg "Some Experiences of an Irish RM" for the use of the phrase with this meaning.

Erskine Childers, by way of example, was black Irish.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-28-2013, 12:20 PM
Those of the captured survivors of Monmouth's rebellion against James II who were not executed were shipped to North America as indentured servants; the practice as not confined in any way to the Irish.

bogdog
02-28-2013, 12:39 PM
I respectfully disagree with all the derivations of the term "black Irish" given so far in this thread.

A black Irishman is a Southern (not a northern) Protestant - dubh means "very" as well as "black".

See eg "Some Experiences of an Irish RM" for the use of the phrase with this meaning.

Erskine Childers, by way of example, was black Irish.

I don't believe in "black Irish" period. BTW did you mean Robert, Erskine, or Erskine Childers?

Ian McColgin
02-28-2013, 12:51 PM
Granuaile was herself "black Irish" as was her father Dubdurah (Black Oak) O'Malley.

Nothing to do with the Armada.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
02-28-2013, 01:09 PM
I don't believe in "black Irish" period. BTW did you mean Robert, Erskine, or Erskine Childers?

Erskine Childers; not "three Mercedes" Childers but his dad; author of "The Riddle of the Sands", shot by firing squad for possessing a pistol given him by Michael Collins.

Chip-skiff
02-28-2013, 05:04 PM
Granuaile was herself "black Irish" as was her father Dubdurah (Black Oak) O'Malley.

Grace the Bald, the pirate queen. Fascinating history there. She wasn't actually bald, but cut her hair short for a voyage.

johnw
02-28-2013, 05:47 PM
Those of the captured survivors of Monmouth's rebellion against James II who were not executed were shipped to North America as indentured servants; the practice as not confined in any way to the Irish.

In fact, one of my ancestors was supposedly from Glasgow and sold to an old Quaker in America to care for him in his declining years. After his death, she married a Quaker clergyman.

According to 1493, by Charles Mann, white indentured servants were considerably cheaper than black slaves. Sub-Saharan Africans proved more resistant to malaria, which the settlers had brought to the new world, so they were worth more.

Many Scots and Irish were sentenced to transportation to North America. A lot of English were, too. After the American Revolution, they needed another place to send prisoners, so they sent them to Australia.

There were also indentured servants who sold themselves for a term of service for the cost of moving to the new world. Supposedly, one of my ancestors did that to get passage on the Mayflower. He married the boss's daughter, so apparently the social position of such a servant was not like that of an African slave.

Autonomous
02-28-2013, 06:00 PM
Because the indentured servants were cheaper than slaves oftentimes they were given the dangerous jobs, i.e. clearing swamps etc.

Steve

bogdog
02-28-2013, 06:04 PM
In early Virginia colonial history up until the late 17th century slaves and indentured servants weren't treated so differently. There was a booming business in retrieval. I think the majority who came over ended up fertilizing the fields.