Help!

[Trojan Dog]

This is the sort of moment I dread. There is a lovely one-of-a-kind, 1937 pilothouse launch up for sale in my area in reportedly fair condition. I'd no intentions of buying a boat just now (got one, just put her back in the water) but this boat is the one I'd love to have long term and pass down to my kids, one of whom is now an officer in Sea Scouts. Her owners have moved out of state, and the boat is sitting at an uncovered slip in the weather. Her single large issue (reportedly) is that she needs to be refastened below the waterline, and the fastenings are the original galvenized iron nails. I'm not new owning a classic wooden boat, and I realize the work this boat will entail. My question is this: As memory serves, old iron fastenings require a special approach in refastening -- the the old nails ought to come out and you've got to be careful what the new fasteners are made of (silione bronze?). This is something I've never had to do (pull old iron). If I go for this boat I'll be doing most of the work myself, and I need to get real about just how long I'd need her out of the water and the time it would take to do the job. I can estimate that for the new fasteners going in, but I've no idea how to pull those old nails or how much time it might take. Based on what I've been told (current owners sound very honest) her seams are OK. Aside from the refastening and cosmetic paint and varnish, she is reportedly sound. I'll know more of course if I move to the next step. She's 32' LOA, 31' 6" LWL, 17,000lbs displacement, 3' draught. 9'6" beam -- Price design, built at the W.F. Dunn shipyard in Port Norfolk, Virginia.

If I were halfway sane I'd be walking the other way, but then again I wouldn't be on this forum either!

Thanks,

Robert

[dmede]

No help on your specific question, sorry. But I do know the boat your talking about... I gaze at it on Craigs List every time it comes up. For what its worth that boat has been listed for a while now, since before the owners moved out of town. While that may be an indication that no ones interested due the work involved I'd also think it means they might take a low offer.

Best of luck.

[Hughman]

It sounds small enough to be do-able....how's your marriage? ;) :eek:

Got any photos?

[Dave Fleming]

Ah yes El Cerrito, the little hill. :D

Solano Avenue was the site of our honeymoon cottage.

Where are you hauled out?

Edited to correct Spanish translation. redface.gif

[ 01-11-2006, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Dave Fleming ]

[Thorne]

Be Afraid --- Be VERY Afraid!

(and stay off craigslist, too. I'm trying to do the same, but keep looking at boats with the excuse of buying used sails...)

; 0 )

[Trojan Dog]

Well then -- answers to questions:

How's my marriage -- already divorced -- one teenager still at home though, and 2 in college. know any attractive middle-aged women with a love of boring out old iron fasteners?

Stay off Craig's List? Excellent idea. I'd no intentions of buying the current boat until I saw it on Craig's List. Love the boat though -- by summer it might be ready for summer. You can see it at http://www.robertedney.com

El Cerrito = Little Pig??? I don't thing so, although that would be cute. It means "the little hill". Where on Solano is a honeymoon cottage???

Hauled out? Current boat was hauled on Bethel Island where I keep it -- El Cerrito is where I live when I'm forced to work or take care of wordly needs. I used to sail a lot on the Bay. The kids, however, have this silly idea that boating ought to be a warm activity and swimming should be an option. They didn't take well to the Cape Horn experience of summer afternoons near the Golden Gate. One of them did try swimming at the Berkeley Marina once -- that nearly saved me the cost of a college education.

Pictures of the object of my current desire? Check this link http://www.craigslist.org/pen/boa/123994102.html Then come back and tell me that it's a goofy idea and to give up on it right this very second. Don't be seduced by the the lovely lines, those curved glass windows or the classic elegance evident throughout. Or better yet, buy the boat out from under me and hide it somewhere.

[ 01-11-2006, 01:07 AM: Message edited by: Trojan Dog ]

[Dave Fleming]

". Where on Solano is a honeymoon cottage??? To us, a certain Apt on the top floor with a nice solarioum above for our exclusive use was honeymoom cottage to us.
This was on the west side of San Pablo Ave..
'bout a good mile west of Andronico's

NOW, how's about some photos of the vessel in question?

Thems the best way for us Forumites to give opinions.
If ya get my drift?

[wyndham]

Objects of our desire are most often difficult to be objective about. If you are seriously considering the purchase and you have the skill and ability to perform the work yourself have the vessel surveyed by a competent professinal.
What is your rush to get her back in the water? You have a boat now, enjoy it and do the work on the projet boat at a reasonable pace.
There is going to be nothing easy about pulling or drilling out a few thousand iron fittings. The holes need to be cleared of damaged wood, plugged and filled and redrilled for new ones.
If the boat makes your heart go pitty-pat then go for it, make a low ball offer and see what happens, she's a pretty boat even for a stink pot.

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

Wow,nice boat. :cool:

http://b.im.craigslist.org/Vr/zg/abL0mODwV6Mp894BgElV7TwOTr4O.jpg

[sdowney717]

I have thought about surveys and frankly speaking, IF the potential rebuilder person knows what they are doing why bother?
They could very likely know more about this wooden boat than the surveyor can ever tell them.

Obviously he is prepared to go to great lengths rebuilding the bottom of this boat, so a survey is only likely to create discouragement. And since the wooden boat fleet is slowly dissappearing, how good will the survey report be anyway since he is likely to have little experience surveying this type of boat.
I think most wooden boat suveyers have a mindset leading them to potential problem areas on a boat that he is already aware of.
But go ahead throw away the 500$ or more for peace of mind. A surveyer who is only going to tell you what you already know is a waste.

Better to rebuild the boat, then get it surveyed if you must for insurance purposes.

[Gary E]

in fair condition but is in need of paint and varnish inside and out, a haul-out to have her planks refastened below the waterline, and TLC by knowledgeable new owner. Must see to appreciate. Price reflects consideration of the expense of work needed to preserve this historic and charming yacht.
·Motivated Seller, has moved out of State. All reasonable offers considered.
So it's been for sale for a Loooooong time.....you wonder why???

It needs a Loootza of WORK...

By a KNOWLEDGEABLE new ...... (you fill in the blank)

If you got plenty of time, plenty of money, plenty of skill, Are you the only one?

Why is YOU the ONLY one thinking of this ???

Ohh... and the $7000 price??... seems about tripple whut its worth...or it would allready have a new owner.

Lotza luck if you doit..

[sdowney717]

'Port Orford Cedar over oak frames on 14" centers'

How lightly built is this boat, wonder what the plank thickness is.
probably bent frames, got to check for cracked frames and or rotted frames. Your refastening may turn into some reframing.

[Gary E]

Price design There were a few of that design as party fishing boats in the local marina in New Jersey... ALL were sawn frame, and very heavy built, although the ones I am familiar with are all 50 to 55 ft long and diesel...all of them stayed in the water all year. As far as I know, the Coast Guard still inspects them and they pass for use out to 20 miles offshore.

[Gary E]

Question for someone who knows..

That boat is floating now...and has not fallen apart...yet
They say it needs to be refastened... WHO SAYS??

Assume it does need refastening...
We all know pulling those nails is a
MONUMENTAL... J O B

What would be wrong with leaving the nails there, and running in 2 screws near the nails?

With that you have what ever strength the nails provide AND THE NEW SCREWS...

IF NOT A GOOD SOLUTION....WHY NOT???

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

the impact of old rusty iron is de-lignified wood = rot.

1) Rocquette's floors after 40 years:
http://www.yacht.ro/raceboat/1_this_is_how_rusted_steel_floors_were.gif

2) Impact was bottom sections of nearly all ribs plus the 2 layers of planking were as gone as a dead dodo...

http://www.yacht.ro/raceboat/1_half_of_mahogany_frames_were_rotten_at_bilge_sec tion.gif

3) Which meant new frame sections:

http://www.yacht.ro/raceboat/1_new_bronze_fastenings_through_framing_and_floors .gif

4) ...and new planking:

http://www.yacht.ro/raceboat/1_hull_planking_rebuilt.gif

Trust me. Iron needs to be removed, along with any local areas of rot it causes, else the outlook is not good. Don't think leaving in situ and refastening is an option, unfortunately!

[sdowney717]

If the framing and planking can handle more screws, why not do it.
All depends on the size, if the frames are thick sawn frames then this looks like an easy choice.
Bronze screws mixed with iron, who corrodes? If Iron then so what, the bronze screws are there.

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

Unfortunately in practice not really "so what", as the bronze might well be there (actually, it will be, as it's a more noble metal - or in this case alloy), but the frames and planking may well not be, due to iron sickness in the wood!

[sdowney717]

The bottom sections of most of my RED oak ribs were gone and the boat was bronze fastened.
I know oak and iron have a bad reputation together, but rot did not seem to care on my boat.

yes I have a white oak keel, keelson. Douglass fir engine beds, white oak floors and nasty red oak ribs. At least when sectioned they look red inside! So are the red or white?

I have wondered about my drift pins that pin the floors to the keelson, since the wood dried out, the 'pin heads' are sticking above the floors. So I am thinking maybe I could pull them and put in new STEEL pins?

[Gary E]

Trust me. Iron needs to be removed, along with any local areas of rot it causes, else the outlook is not good. Don't think leaving in situ and refastening is an option, unfortunately! This is not ment to tic you off but it probably will...

Last time I took that..."Trust me" idea...well... never mind..

Then you say..."Don't think"... that to me is not the same as I KNOW... or the Coast Guard SAYS..

"situ" ...whutz that?

Your boat ...ummm YACHT is probably what you call it, looks good...REAL GOOD...and seeing that boat in that building tells me you ar spending a unlimited amount of money on rebuilding it..

But Price built work boats that are sometimes much heavier than "yats" and IF it aint fallen apart yet, it can last another 20 yrs or more with a little help from a friend....but maybe it is a floating bucket of board the should be featured at the next weenie roast.. who knows.

If it were allready my boat, I would run in some screws, unless the Coast Guard had specific rules aginst it. Or sellit to some unsuspecting fool to let him deal with it.

[ 01-11-2006, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

smile.gif Fair point Gary - guilty of looking at this from my point of view!

I was approaching this from the angle of "fixing" rather than merely "making-last-a-bit-longer" - if this other boat's a good chunky build, and her timbers are such that she can take it, then your approach has merit under the circumstances (although I'd still rather not do it as I think it's a "stich in time saves nine" approach).

Had someone done other than a temporary job with ROCQUETTE 10-15 years ago, we wouldn't be where we are now...

But thank you for making the point.

A

p.s. re the "don't think" versus "I know" - put it down to British reticence. In fact, I KNOW!!!!! and have photos to prove it...

smile.gif

[ 01-11-2006, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Andrew S/Y Rocquette ]

[ron ll]

I have a similar boat, fir on bent oak and fastened with iron nails in 1943. The fastenings seem fine, especially underwater and the hull is as fair and tight as the day she was built. I think Gary E has a good point; are you sure she needs refastening or is someone just scared of old iron nails.

I have been told that the way iron nails are removed is by tack-welding a stud to the nail head and then pulling. Sounds daunting on hundreds of nails. But maybe to an experienced professional that is properly set up to do it, not out of the question.

BTW, I just came from the Seattle Boat Show where for anywhere from $500,000 to a mil or more you can get a nice pile of sterile white plastic that doesn't have any rusty fastenings. That kind of money can buy you a lot of tack-welding and nail-pulling. :D

[ 01-11-2006, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: ron ll ]

[Gary E]

I have been told that the way iron nails are removed is by tack-welding a stud to the nail head and then pullingThat sounds good untill you actually do it...

Where on the nail and how would you get to it to attach the electric welders ground?

If welding with a gas torch, you bring the weenies, I'll bring the marshmellows.

Who brings the BEER?

P A R T Y O N

[ron ll]

I agree, it sounds illogical and I have never seen it done. But I have been told by some very good shipwrights that it is really no big deal. Any one else know of this method?

[sdowney717]

http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig11_2.htm

I was thinking one sided mig spotwelding might be what they are talking about. Use the mig torch to weld a steel wire to the nail head.

[Cullen T.M. McGough]

BWHAHAHAHAHA...

Don't do it.

Unless this particular boat has sentimental value for you AND you have a trust fund, it will not be worth the cost of curing the trouble caused by iron.

Now let's be fair, iron is a wonderful fast, easy, inexpensive way to build a hull. But it ain't gonna last. Eventually that iron will rust and that rust will split the frames.

The fool's compromise would be something dangerous and provocative like sheathing the hull by cold molding.

The "proper" fix would be to re-frame and re-plank the boat, if you plan on this thing being an heirloom.

If it currently floats, doesn't leak too much and it's cheap, go ahead and wang a few more nails in and sister any frames that look shady. But for god's sake, don't spend much money.

[WoodenBNut]

Contact Paul Silverman at pypss@selway.umt.edu as he has a boat that he pulled iron nails from and refastened with Silicon Bronze screws. See this post below in the Wooden Boat forum:
" Norm, I am pulling thousands of square iron nails from my boat and replacing them with silicone bronze screws. If you do determine that you want to do something like that, let me know and I will describe my technique in detail. Basically, I remove putty covering each nail using an awl, chisel a line next to the nail to limit wood tear-out, then hammer a small cat's-paw behind the head, put a metal plate on the rocker side of the cat's-paw to to prevent the tool from damaging the soft cedar planking, and then yank on it. "
Also, if you inspect the previous iron fastenings(pull a few samples nails from different areas) and find that they are in decent condition, would it make any sense to just leave the existing iron fastenings in and add silicon bronze screws for "peace of mind"? If the iron nails are in decent condition after all those years, then why pull them??? Of course, if they are rusting/weaking, then they need to be pulled and replace. Make sure that you do a thorough inspection of all the planking and framing to see where the rot is and how extensive it is. (Yes, there is always rot! You just need to know where it is and how extensive it is and be realistic before you take on this project).

[WoodenBNut]

Wooooow Man!!!! What was I thinking??!! No, you can't leave the iron nails in and add silicon bronze screws or you will set up a nice battery, and you will have very nice galvonic corrosion and your bottom planks will soon fall off!. No, if the iron nails are bad, you gotta pull them.
Anyway, make sure you check out all the planks and framing for rot and when you find it, note where and how much there is.

[ron ll]

Now let's be fair, iron is a wonderful fast, easy, inexpensive way to build a hull. But it ain't gonna last. Eventually that iron will rust and that rust will split the frames. Tell that to the guy that built this boat over 60 years ago. Still original planks and frames and iron nails. smile.gif

http://www.ronlloyd.com/oddstuff/sling.jpg

[Luther]

I sure enjoy reading the forum, seldom respone, I have a different outlook. I knew this guy that went out with the boy's had a few to many and got pulled over for DWI (drunk driving) spent better than 7000 on his attorney, had to listen to his wife and all the ugly things that go with it. That was just for a couple of beers. I say if you like the boat look at putting in some galv screws and a new paint job. Just tinkering and day dreaming is worth that much. I bet you can pick her up for less and love that boat to death. She will last for another 10 years or longer. Don't put alot into her, you should be happy. Alot of boat lovers will stop by to talk and dream with you.
Cheers, Spike

[wyndham]

WoodenBnut, I was a bit surprised by your fist post about leaving the iron nails in with new bronze fasteners and was getting ready to respond when I saw your last..
If the iron nails are rusting they must be removed or the frames will just melt away. Depending on the size of the nails there are a number of ways to remove them, cats paw and long piece of pipe for a persuader works fine. If the heads are big and square you can drill a small hole into the nail and use a modified EZ out and a slide hammer to get the head above the plank face, then use a long pry bar with a block of wood. Driving the nails out from the inside with a punch it easy as well. Most times locating the nail is very simple, there is usually a brown or black dot. Run a small drill bit in 'til you hit pay dirt, set the punch in the hole and pound away. You will need to drill out all the sick wood anyway so being surgically careful is not that important.