Photo of Proposed Cape Cod Windfarm

[Dave Fleming]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid65/p8cb837aaf5fdacbe53f5165a69c35afe/fbeb69d8.jpg

From a Sunday article in the NY Times.
A generated image of the proposed offshore windfarm off Cape Cod.

[Pelican]

Hey Dave, those arn't generators. They is giant fans. They turns 'em on on real calm days so the "elite" can still go sailin' :D

[garland reese]

Boy that'l really improve the seascape, huh? :rolleyes:

One of those farms is in the planning for western Oklahoma too........"where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain......."

[imported_Conrad]

It's the ecology, stupid!

[mmd]

I'd rather see this than another coal-fired power plant fed by strip-mines.

[Ken Hutchins]

MMD, I agree with you, the problem is all the millionairheads on Nantucket don't want it to spoil their view. They don't have their houses overlooking strip mines, so they would prefer the strip mines.

[Frank Wentzel]

Considering the amount of fog they get in that area the "elite" wouldn't be able to see the windfarm that often anyway.

/// Frank ///

[ 06-16-2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Frank Wentzel ]

[Mrleft8]

I like the idea of wind farms. Will these be "organic" wind farms? Or will they use chemicals?

[Derek Gavin]

Boy isn't it funny that those in this thread who approve of the wind farm...don't have to view it. Nor do they even live close to it.

Derek

[N. Scheuer]

My Mother-In-Law has farm property she is willing to lease to a new Wind Farm proposal for north-central Iloinois. However, a nearby airport serving sport aviation in a big way is opposed.

As a flyer, myself, I'd sure hate to try an emergency landing in the area covered by windmills! When one flies at or below 2000' (AGL) water and phone relay towers are bad enough.

May have to get used to it however. Wind power does seem like a good idea.

But then, here's a thought; of the few windmills I know about, they spend a awful lot of time down for repair. The windpower companies nevr mention that when presenting their proposal to various groups.

Hey, why not build them off the coast of Maine, instead, so fog will obsure them much of the time!

Moby Nick

[Ian McColgin]

My department will play a minor role in the approvals or disapprovals of this installation so I must put in the caveats that I'm not part of the division that handles these matters, I don't in any way reflect department thoughts on this, and the issue is not actually before us yet anyway. I'll likely be retired by then.

None of the issues the opponents to the wind farm have raised or that the public has glommed on to are within our pervue anyhow.

When the weather is nice I can see the test tower from my mooring and I'll have a fine view of anything built out there.

I've teased one of the principles of the farm that he stole my idea. He knows that in '92 I played out a plot line for a kind of sailing novel. Since I know squat about drugs and crime and such, I could not drive the plot with those old standbys. I wanted a sailing novel of the skippah and his god daughter sailing around and needed a McGuffin. So I pulled out my charts and settled on a 200 unit wind farm on Horseshoe Shoal. Seeing nothing intrinsicly evil in this, I made the villany bit around the idea that the wind farm was really a devise to get pollution credits for the Canal electric plant - one of our dirty dozen. Or maybe that the towers would hide oil well drills for a little side slant work pulling up the oil that's believed to be under our sound.

Point is, I've actually thought about a wind farm very like the one proposed for over a decade. There are real environmental concerns. I don't really trust the Army Corps for environmental review and it's possible that the actual design and construction plans will reveal environmental issues, but there is no reason why a properly constructed wind farm can't be done.

You can bet your bippy that, since I'll be back as a private citizen by then, that I'll be looking closely and bringing what expertise I have to the matter.

Point is, I'n not knee jerk against it by any means.

There are two commercial fishing operations that it will affect - a couple of draggers who have a lot of gall to complain about someone 'industrializing' the Sound. Ever dive on a bottom that's been dragged? Ever look at the tossed aside mangled dieing 'by-catch.' The hook and line guys and the pot guys will not be harmed by the farm at all.

I don't see a vessel safety issue at all. Commercial fuel barges and such to Nantucket don't cross the shoal, and the one small ferry that goes that way will have no harder navigation problem than it already has. For the rest of us, the towers are just more things that let us see where we are. Might be kind of comforting if they each have some kind of marking - A-12 etc.

Some of the most vocal opposition comes from folk whose own marine enterprises are charactorized by some to be pretty industrial anyway. That's actually an incorrect demonization: those wind farm opponents's own business quite environmentally responsible.

There are astonishing rhetorical excesses on both sides and there are some strange alliances. We have a contested state rep position before the state supremem judicial court now where the R who lost the original and the recount but has a claim of a voting irregularity is coming on as Mr EnviroAntiWindFarm while the D points out that the state leg will have no say in the issue but he personally favors renewable energy and is willing to at least see how the studies work on this one . . . and, responding to the NIMBY accusation, one of the Kennedy's points out that a real environmentalist should start with his or her own back yard . . . .

There is huge polarization on this and it's very hard for those of us who want to look at the facts and who have good friends frothing at their mouths on both sides to keep our independence and our firendships. Way it goes. We can at least try to keep our friends from stupid name calling about our other friends.

Yours from the front . . .

[ 06-19-2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Ian McColgin ]

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by Derek Gavin:
Boy isn't it funny that those in this thread who approve of the wind farm...don't have to view it. Nor do they even live close to it.

DerekDerek, It appears to me that nobody (other than Ian, who posted after you) who has expressed a view on EITHER SIDE of this issue on this thread lives anywhere near the area. So, you could just as easily say "Boy isn't it funny that those in this thread who DO NOT approve of the wind farm...don't have to view it..."

It's hardly surprising that most of the comments are coming from people outside the area since this is a global forum, and so I think it's a little unreasonable to suggest that on such a forum the only people who should express an opinion are the ones who will be directly impacted by it.

[ErikH]

I'm distressed that you would even imply my ability to judge the plant is dictated by my location. Acts that aggravate a small group but are for the good of all are really what our government is for, to some degree... if we only built projects where the immediate neighbors had no protests, then not much would get done.

It's a trade-off: perhaps some immediate residents will suffer a disadvantage. But many others will gain a large advantage. And those same 'disadvantaged' residents may benefit from some other plan disproportionately, at some past or future time.

Everyone hates dirty power. Everyone wants wind power. A small number REALLY don't want it in their back yard. The protests should be duly heard, and duly considered. But if they're outweighed, it will quite possibly be for the best.

And yes, they're damn ugly.

[High C]

You want safe, clean, affordable power? Nuclear.

[Ian McColgin]

I worked as an electrician's helper building one plant. I have good friends who came out of the Navy and into the industry. I've studied the field.

I do not find these things affordable, safe or clean.

Building these things takes tremendous precision. I remember as a child going to hearings where Adm Rickover lacerated contractors to get sub reactors built right. And then, as mentioned above, I worked on the construction of one plant. Come on folks - every has a car and knows how hard it is to get a simple machine like that built right. The extent to which they do work is a testimoney to the inventive determination of the operators, heros one and all in my book, but is no guarentee that their vigilance will remain so close to perfect. And that's in this country. To experience terror, just take a tour of an Indian nuke. Just do it after you already have some cancer so you won't be doing yourself much more damage.

The industry spent years evading regulation of spent fuel by promicing a solution. When their inability to even imagine a solution became too blatant, the Regan administration took back the job but no one actually has a way to handle the stuff. For that reason, the local ponds at each plant are just filled and we make new standards justifying crowding them with more spent rods than the original specs not because it's safe but because it's about all anyone can do. Even if nukes were well built and perfectly operated, the spent fuel problem is not even close to a solution. (I can't view dispersing a few tons around Iraq as much of a solution.)

And finally, these things cost impossibly much to decommission and then cost about as much per year to keep decomissioned as they cost to run.

I actually think little nukes in warships can be a sensible idea because the safety, spent fuel and decommissioning issues are more nearly manageable. But I don't think we'll be seeing a new plant built in this country because no one can actually afford it.

[JimConlin]

I occasionally sail in those waters.
I'd rather have a wind farm in Nantucket Sound than drill for oil in ANWR.
Better still would be an active public policy toward conservation.

[Derek Gavin]

Bruce & Erik,
Well.. Where should I begin? Let me first say that I just moved to southern Maine in September of last year. Prior to this move I spent the majority of my forty years either in Sandwich or Falmouth Massachusetts....you know, Cape Cod. Even though I do not reside there I still own real estate there. My comment was based on an observation. I first observed a picture and comments NOT of a global location but of a very local one…you know the one on CAPE COD. Second observation was that of the respondents, the only two who voiced an opinion in FAVOR OF the CAPE COD windmill farm were from either Canada or New Hampshire. I did not imply, suggest, or infer that this was not a global forum and that ONLY folks who are local are the only ones that can comment, nor that the two posting parties did not have a right to an opinion. You are accusing me of something based on YOUR twisted idea of what was said. Might I suggest you read the thread up to and including my initial post then pause and THINK. You may change your response. And Erik, were you listening to "America the Beautiful" when you posted your reply? Very nice! But by all means don't distress!!!! If you read the above, you too will reach the same enlightenment as Bruce and you will return to that calm state you were in before. I do not need you or anyone else teaching me how we should all get along in society even though something that is bad for a few.... BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. No kidding! There again you ASSumed too much. You both must be looking for a fight because you ASSumed that I was taking someone’s rights away. Lastly Erik, please re-write your first sentance...it is pathetic. Fact of the matter is that I am in FAVOR of the windmill farm project as long as it is properly engineered and planned. I am a believer in harnessing the sun, wind, and water as a significant energy alternative. Thank you for your time. And have a nice day!

[garland reese]

Those wind powered generators in the midst of a saltwater environment might turn out to be a maintenance nightmare. The wind powered generators of today are much better and cheaper than that of a decade ago though...............

Boy, this little issue got sorta heated, innit??

[Wild Wassa]

We have a wind farm in the Southern Highlands. If you have not heard a wind farm, go and have a listen before you make up your minds. The noise is unbelievable. I do not think wind farms should be anywhere near where people live and try to sleep. The noise will come on the wind, I'd not like the proposal if I was a Cape Cod resident. The turbines don't look far enough off shore.

Wind farms need to be in the centres of deserts, where they bother no one. The real problem with the Moss Vale wind farm, apart from the noise, is that the turbines breakdown often.

Warren.

[ 06-19-2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[htom]

How do they propose to keep the migrating birds out of them?

Does anyone doing these proposals actually realize the magnitude of the energy consumption of the USA, and how little they're proposing to add? I'm not even sure that over the lifetime of the project (counting repairs and transportation of spares) that it's a net gain!

[WOODZOWL]

As I see it !
Which of the following, would you like to see fail. A wind generator in the sound, or the Pilgrim One, at Plymouth???? Jerry Mathieu

[Mrleft8]

I was in Germany last month, and (at least in the area where I was) there were wind generators all over the place! Beautiful pastoral country side, dotted with wind mills. Not wind mills like in Don Quixote, but big (40' per blade) 3 bladed wind mills. They were not in the least bit offensive to my critical, and often opinionated eye.

[Bruce Hooke]

Derek,

I'm happy to give you a second chance. I certainly read your post as suggesting that comments in favor of the proposed wind farm from those who do not have to view it regularly lack validity. I'm really not sure how else to read it. Furthermore, to me, saying that someone's post lacks validity is basically the same as saying that they should keep their mouth shut. Based on this reading I questioned why comments against the farm should not be held to the same standard as comments in favor. For the record I did read all the posts up to and including yours and I then based my post on my best reading of what you were saying. If I misunderstood what you were saying, could you please explain what you meant. What point were you trying to make about the fact that the two posts in favor were from people far away from the proposed location? I'm sure you had some point beyond commenting on where different poeple are from. Thanks.

Note: I do think that the people in the area should have more say in the project than those who are far away - the locals are the ones who will have to live with it. I also, however, believe that those who are far away from it may have opinions that should carry weight, and I do think that some attention needs to be paid to the NIMBY effect.

- Bruce

[Bruce Hooke]

Originally posted by htom:
How do they propose to keep the migrating birds out of them?

Does anyone doing these proposals actually realize the magnitude of the energy consumption of the USA, and how little they're proposing to add? I'm not even sure that over the lifetime of the project (counting repairs and transportation of spares) that it's a net gain!I just heard on the radio that wind energy has the potential to provide a signifcant quantity of energy to our supply (in fact it apparently already is in Texas), and that in many locations it now has the potential to be the cheapest source of energy available.

[htom]

Energy consumption of the USA in 2001, ~ 96 quads (my guess is that we're approaching, if not over, 100.) A quad is a quadrillion (10^15) BTU, approximately 2.931x10^11 kWh.

~2.8 * 10^13 kWh.

The area of the continental USA is ~ 3,000,000 square miles.

9,400,000 kWh per square mile.

Every day, wind or no.

Let's say that we have a 100,000 kWh generator.

We need to install 94 of them on every square mile of the USA. Roughly one every 500 feet.

And pray that the wind blows 24 hours a day at 30 knots.

[Bruce Hooke]

htom - I don't think anyone sensible is suggesting that wind power become our sole source of power. For that matter, I don't think anyone is suggesting that any source of power become our sole source of power. However, it seems to me that a power source that has been demonstrated to be in the same cost range as more traditional sources, and that is as low-polution as wind, should have a place in our energy grid. Your numbers do suggest that wind is not likely to be a dominant source of power, but your numbers give me no reason to doubt what I have been hearing about how wind competes with other sources of power in terms of cost/KwH.

[B_B]

Originally posted by High C:
You want safe, clean, affordable power? Nuclear.Yup, and we'll store the spent fuel rods in your basement.

[Derek Gavin]

Bruce,
You are too generous to give me a second chance. Thank you so much! You still want me to say that I was not allowing someone to express themselves on this forum by chastising them for their viewpoint. In terms of validity you are wrong. The views expressed by this forum are all valid views. You are chock full of them…2015 wonderfully valid views.
I personally do not believe that someone from out of state or country can have a counted say in deciding whether the Cape Cod wind farm project is a go or not. My comment was that, sure it is easy to have a favorable opinion on this particular wind farm when you live in another state hence you do not have to look at it, pay for it, or be directly impacted by it etc, etc, etc. But by all means they do have a right to their opinions and their opinions are welcome here. Doe this shed some light or do you need further assistance? If you do, might we take it off line? Second thought, I am not interested. But thank you for your valid opinions just the same.

Derek

[MarkC]

Here in Germany where approx 8 - 10% of all electricity is from wind, hydro, solar, there are thousands of wind generators. When one nears the North Sea coast, there are banks of them. They also feature in the Black Forest (with protest from the Baden-Württemberg head minister).

OK, their placement is a balance between town-planning issues and choice windy sites.

They are not permanent structures, in the sense of they can be reasonably quickly dismantled and re-assembled elsewhere - or removed if another more-efficent non-poluting energy source is found. Hell - think of them as a work in progress.

In Germany there are many technicians servicing the machines and this provides jobs (also their construction etc.)

I believe, with the popularity of the wind generators, many engineering companies jumped on in quickly resulting in the breakdown problems. I think the new generation-generators I have seen have solved these boom-time problems (quieter, they look a whole lot nicer).

Depends on the design - but I have stood near some running at a good clip and they were not noisy -

Which brings me to -

They can/should have a lot to do with 'our' interest in sailing. (Mr Sponberg helped design some US generator blades). Their development helps my sport of interest (eg.efficient foil technoloy).

Once you get over the 'what the?!' they can be quite appealing.

I don't mind them.

Cheers
Mark

[High C]

Originally posted by Braam Berrub:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by High C:
You want safe, clean, affordable power? Nuclear.Yup, and we'll store the spent fuel rods in your basement.</font>[/QUOTE]Fine with me. No one has been hurt yet (by radiation) in an American nuke plant or fuel storage facility. Can you say that about coal, oil, or natural gas?

[Art Read]

For those "pooh-poohing" the NIMBY mindset on this... Just picture your own particular, favorite, pristine sailing waters. Now... fill 'em in, in your mind's eye, with heavy, industrial, power generating apparatus, covering many, many square miles in a mind-numbing, repetitive pattern and creating an ever present, audible "throb and hum". For what? A fraction of the "dirty" power produced by one conventional power plant requiring a "footprint" a fraction of the size and which does not HAVE to be located in the most obtrusive, visually obvious and yes, environmentally sensitive of all possible locations imaginable? Why?

(Wonder who gets to dismantle this "experiment" in twenty years or so when the turbines have corroded solid and the developer has long since gone bankrupt?)

[MarkC]

Mr Read I can understand your objections, but I don't share your scepticism.

Personally I see a wind turbine in the same way I see a lighthouse.

I can identify with you - for example, one time in Adelaide, South Australia, an oil group tried to put an oil pumping platform right in our favourite waters. I was angry - but a storm wiped it out and it was removed and scrapped.

Here in Germany they are building the bigest wind-park just off the coast (near the border with Denmark). It will generate impressive KW and shell-fish farmers are setting up in-between the tower bases.

In my local South West German area, the smoke/cooling stacks from coal-fired stations are easily seen.

A worker at the local Neuclear plant 20km away brought home some glowing substance to show his kids - he contaminated his whole appartment block, put everyone in hospital, but replied everyone had just over-reacted. He is now undergoing psychiatric treatment.

Mark

[High C]

Originally posted by MarkC:
A worker at the local Neuclear plant 20km away brought home some glowing substance to show his kids - he contaminated his whole appartment block, put everyone in hospital, but replied everyone had just over-reacted. He is now undergoing psychiatric treatment.
Sounds like somebody is watching too much Homer Simpson. ;) Radioactive stuff doesn't glow. That's strictly a Hollywood notion. There is glowing that occurs during the reactor refueling process, called the Cerenkov Effect, but when Homer brings it home to show his kids, it doesn't glow.

Windmills in my back yard cruising grounds? Maybe if we could get rid of the thousands of poorly marked crab traps as a trade-off. ;) And only if they are quiet. The only one I ever saw was horribly noisy, and was removed after about a year of service. It also had a bad habit of slinging ice off its blades and damaging nearby houses, people, whatever was near.

[ 06-22-2003, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: High C ]

[Dutch Rub]

They look great to the folks who have had their land destroyed forever by mountain top (coal) removal strip mining. At least when a more technologically advanced way of generating power is come up with in 30-40- years or so, they can be dismantled and no one will know they were ever there.

[MarkC]

HighC - the worker at the Phillipsberg nuclear plant did do it (no kidding). Did it glow? I dont know, but he did take it home (to sell to the mafia? or he had lost the plot)

The news coverage was interesting - the un-marked white trucks and vans, the blokes in un-marked white jakets - the appartment block needed to be cleaned (decontaminated)there were miles of plastic. The protection suits available in Baden-Württemberg for the police were deemed to be inadequate and now they have spiffy new ones.

[ 06-23-2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: MarkC ]

[huisjen]

Those blades are sails. I like sails. Besides which I'm of Dutch ancestory.

That said, for my site, even just a couple miles inland, solar panels make much more sense. Fixating on big plants to light whole regions may not make as much sense as each of us having our own solar array.

Dan

[Jim H]

I wish they would put a wind farm off the coast here, it would improve sportfishing 100%. The bottom along the coast here is like a desert with virtually no structure and anywhere south of Freeport we usually have a good breeze. They wouldn't be anymore of an eyesore than a gas or oil rig.