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RodSBT
01-01-2013, 07:33 PM
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/28-12-2012/123335-americans_guns-0/

"No it is about power and a total power over the people. There is a lot of desire to bad mouth the Tsar, particularly by the Communists, who claim he was a tyrant, and yet under him we were armed and under the progressives disarmed. Do not be fooled by a belief that progressives, leftists hate guns. Oh, no, they do not. What they hate is guns in the hands of those who are not marching in lock step of their ideology. They hate guns in the hands of those who think for themselves and do not obey without question. They hate guns in those whom they have slated for a barrel to the back of the ear.
So, do not fall for the false promises and do not extinguish the light that is left to allow humanity a measure of self respect."

Gerarddm
01-01-2013, 07:45 PM
Yadda yadda yadda.

Oysterhouse
01-01-2013, 07:45 PM
Well said. I think that about sums up the suspicion that a lot of gun owners have about the motivation for draconian gun control and banning schemes. It’s not that we are against all restrictions, we just fear the slippery slope.

RodSBT
01-01-2013, 08:00 PM
You mean like Cambodia after Pol Pot had his way?

Arizona Bay
01-01-2013, 08:01 PM
So RobSTD's a commie?

S/V Laura Ellen
01-01-2013, 08:23 PM
RodSBT's post seems to be the act of a desperate person.

Canoez
01-01-2013, 08:31 PM
RodSBT's post seems to be the act of a desperate person.

Yes. The pro-gun group that thinks that there should be no changes has been extremely vocal of late. While I do support an individual's right to bear arms, I think that there should be some changes. What those are, I'm not quite sure, but I'll say this - the gun lobby says that the current gun laws aren't enforceable. If that's the case, we need to pass some that are that keep guns from the hands of those who shouldn't have them. I don't think that the gun lobby counted on this lasting as long as it has.

RodB
01-01-2013, 08:47 PM
Obama would like to it to be a monarchy... he sure hates it that the constitution and the congress are in his way too often.

RodB

Oysterhouse
01-01-2013, 08:47 PM
http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b498/Oysterhouse1/3E73G83M15E45Ka5Feccp6ca3428c8d89144d1_zps1bea23d0 .jpg

Canoez
01-01-2013, 08:54 PM
http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b498/Oysterhouse1/3E73G83M15E45Ka5Feccp6ca3428c8d89144d1_zps1bea23d0 .jpg

So tell me - the Sandy Hook shooter thought that all those little kids were going to take his guns away?

Cedric Rhyn
01-01-2013, 08:54 PM
http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b498/Oysterhouse1/3E73G83M15E45Ka5Feccp6ca3428c8d89144d1_zps1bea23d0 .jpg


Actually, I think that living in a society where fear makes people feel that they have to have guns for self defence is not "liberty", or "freedom" for that matter.

Cedric Rhyn

RodB
01-01-2013, 08:55 PM
Its incredible lately the amount of women buying guns and taking conceal and carry courses. Local shooting ranges have tons of business and a surprising amount of them are women. Stores like Cabellas and Academy and Walmart are out of 9mm ammunition. All the AR15s in the stores have been sold. I wonder how many assault type rifles that were in stock across the nation have been sold.. perhaps another million can be added to the total in the population now. Obama has sold more guns than any president in history.

Just saying...

RodB

Captain Intrepid
01-01-2013, 08:58 PM
Golly, I sure feel deprived of liberty since I can't strut around with a killing machine strapped to my hip...

Ian McColgin
01-01-2013, 09:06 PM
Dude's piece today is: "Modern Abortion, the Demonic Worship of Baal-Moloch Writ Large".

He, she or it makes a perfect object lesson for the 'real name' thread.

Mrleft8
01-01-2013, 09:14 PM
http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b498/Oysterhouse1/3E73G83M15E45Ka5Feccp6ca3428c8d89144d1_zps1bea23d0 .jpg

"When they tell you don't need it, that's when you really need it"....
Morans.....:rolleyes:
Let's try again, but in English this time.
"When they tell you that you don't need it, That's when you really need it"...
Please..... If you're going to be an idiot, at least make an effort......

RodB
01-01-2013, 09:17 PM
"When they tell you don't need it, that's when you really need it"....
Morans.....
Let's try again, but in English this time.
"When they tell you that you don't need it, That's when you really need it"...
Please..... If you're going to be an idiot, at least make an effort......

I think its "moron" Mr brilliant...

R

hanleyclifford
01-01-2013, 09:18 PM
Dude's piece today is: "Modern Abortion, the Demonic Worship of Baal-Moloch Writ Large".

He, she or it makes a perfect object lesson for the 'real name' thread. Sounds kinda cool, Ian; please explain relevance for us simpletons.

wardd
01-01-2013, 09:20 PM
I think its "moron" Mr brilliant...

R


went right over you head, didn't it

Oysterhouse
01-01-2013, 09:21 PM
Morans.....Please..... If you're going to be an idiot, at least make an effort......

"dis moran be done workin on dat right now"

Oysterhouse
01-01-2013, 09:24 PM
Sounds kinda cool, Ian; please explain relevance for us simpletons.
Yes is does, If you are so inclined a link would be appreciated.

Steve McMahon
01-01-2013, 09:44 PM
Actually, I think that living in a society where fear makes people feel that they have to have guns for self defence is not "liberty", or "freedom" for that matter.

Cedric Rhyn

I do own a few guns and I agree with you 100%. I see the ability to own guns and hunt or target shoot (both by the rules) as a privilege and not a right. It is my "right" to live in a society that is to the best of my governments ability, protected from harm by the actions of others.

Ian McColgin
01-01-2013, 09:44 PM
Come on guys. This anonoblog is well known in his or her own mind. Or minds.

http://mat-rodina.blogspot.com/

hanleyclifford
01-01-2013, 09:57 PM
Come on guys. This anonoblog is well known in his or her own mind. Or minds.

http://mat-rodina.blogspot.com/ Yes, Ian; and the other cool sacrifice to Molech is the use of children as suicide bombers.

RodB
01-01-2013, 09:58 PM
There ain't no similar country... just wanna be's

The people buying guns are afraid of losing their right to buy a gun... thats about it.

RodB

skuthorp
01-01-2013, 10:02 PM
I'm always astounded that the same people who oppose abortion don't seem to mind an annual cull.

Oysterhouse
01-01-2013, 10:03 PM
Thanks for the link Ian, it was an enjoyable read.
Also for the underlying lesson on how to do “homework”

RodSBT
01-01-2013, 10:03 PM
Actually, I think that living in a society where fear makes people feel that they have to have guns for self defence is not "liberty", or "freedom" for that matter.

Cedric Rhyn

Can't expect a rabbit to understand the mind of the fox.

Ian McColgin
01-01-2013, 10:08 PM
And you can't expect sense about guns from a pseudonomous jerk who confuses Baal with Moloch and perpetuates the lies about infant sacrifice as having something to do with his opposition to abortion.

Oysterhouse
01-01-2013, 10:09 PM
I'm always astounded that the same people who oppose abortion don't seem to mind an annual cull.
Personally I support a woman’s right to choose an abortion.
Just because I take a certain view on Guns does not mean that I am going to be easily pigeonholed on other issues.

ccmanuals
01-01-2013, 10:10 PM
Rod, Why don't you tell me the areas that America ranks number one.... I will give you the worlds largest military, and the worlds largest economy. What about education, quality of life issues and so on... where is America on those rankings?

I think we are number 1 in people in prisons.

hanleyclifford
01-01-2013, 10:13 PM
And litigation.

wardd
01-01-2013, 10:17 PM
could own be substituted for bear

i wonder if that is more inline with what was originally meant

RodSBT
01-01-2013, 10:39 PM
Rod, Why don't you tell me the areas that America ranks number one.... I will give you the worlds largest military, and the worlds largest economy. What about education, quality of life issues and so on... where is America on those rankings?

I'd could give a flying rats a$$ about where my country ranks. I care about the freedoms and liberties of our citizens and how the gov should protect those freedoms here in the US.

You spend more time trying to prove you and your country's "superiority" that one can only assume a major insecurity problem on your part. Can't get over the fact that socialist agendas in the inner cities are the major cause for the high murder rates?
Where are the highest murder/assault rates Canada, Recardo? And while you're at how about showing us the "quality" of life for all those First Nations people you stuffed in the church schools. The alcohol spread through the trading companies to keep the "locals" dumb and happy. How about some of your logging and mining practices up yonder in the great white north.

You need to take a trip out west and meet some real Canadians where the lowest crime rates are and the highest gun ownership resides. The trip would do you good if you can handle the truth.

wardd
01-01-2013, 10:53 PM
I'd could give a flying rats a$$ about where my country ranks. I care about the freedoms and liberties of our citizens and how the gov should protect those freedoms here in the US.

You spend more time trying to prove you and your country's "superiority" that one can only assume a major insecurity problem on your part. Can't get over the fact that socialist agendas in the inner cities are the major cause for the high murder rates?
Where are the highest murder/assault rates Canada, Recardo? And while you're at how about showing us the "quality" of life for all those First Nations people you stuffed in the church schools. The alcohol spread through the trading companies to keep the "locals" dumb and happy. How about some of your logging and mining practices up yonder in the great white north.

You need to take a trip out west and meet some real Canadians where the lowest crime rates are and the highest gun ownership resides. The trip would do you good if you can handle the truth.

what about my freedom not to be shot by some gun nut?

Arizona Bay
01-01-2013, 10:57 PM
Rod's getting ready to shoot his monitor again...

Captain Intrepid
01-01-2013, 10:59 PM
I'd could give a flying rats a$$ about where my country ranks. I care about the freedoms and liberties of our citizens and how the gov should protect those freedoms here in the US.

You spend more time trying to prove you and your country's "superiority" that one can only assume a major insecurity problem on your part. Can't get over the fact that socialist agendas in the inner cities are the major cause for the high murder rates?
Where are the highest murder/assault rates Canada, Recardo? And while you're at how about showing us the "quality" of life for all those First Nations people you stuffed in the church schools. The alcohol spread through the trading companies to keep the "locals" dumb and happy. How about some of your logging and mining practices up yonder in the great white north.

You need to take a trip out west and meet some real Canadians where the lowest crime rates are and the highest gun ownership resides. The trip would do you good if you can handle the truth.

http://th788.photobucket.com/albums/yy168/Minachan08/random%20pix/th_keyboardmadness.gif

Gerarddm
01-01-2013, 11:02 PM
I am sick of the words 'liberty' and 'freedom', which have become so debased by demagogues as to become meaningless.

The liberty and freedom I want is from regressives.

RodSBT
01-01-2013, 11:13 PM
http://th788.photobucket.com/albums/yy168/Minachan08/random%20pix/th_keyboardmadness.gif


This is pretty good! :d:D

RodB
01-01-2013, 11:16 PM
Rod, Why don't you tell me the areas that America ranks number one.... I will give you the worlds largest military, and the worlds largest economy. What about education, quality of life issues and so on... where is America on those rankings?


Hey PMJ..... heres some comparisons as you asked for....



http://www.kabobfest.com/2009/06/21-reasons-america-blows-europe-out-of-the-water.html

http://www.topix.com/forum/ca/toronto-on/TN3I4G6BBILBCPL6K

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/10/17/1033151/america-did-better-europe/?mobile=nc

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533343,00.html

http://educationnext.org/compared-to-other-countries-does-the-united-states-really-do-that-badly-in-math/

The best one: http://www.americaisbetterthancanada.com/ :d




I'd could give a flying rats a$$ about where my country ranks. I care about the freedoms and liberties of our citizens and how the gov should protect those freedoms here in the US.

You spend more time trying to prove you and your country's "superiority" that one can only assume a major insecurity problem on your part. Can't get over the fact that socialist agendas in the inner cities are the major cause for the high murder rates?
Where are the highest murder/assault rates Canada, Recardo? And while you're at how about showing us the "quality" of life for all those First Nations people you stuffed in the church schools. The alcohol spread through the trading companies to keep the "locals" dumb and happy. How about some of your logging and mining practices up yonder in the great white north.

You need to take a trip out west and meet some real Canadians where the lowest crime rates are and the highest gun ownership resides. The trip would do you good if you can handle the truth.

This sounds like a great response to you.. PMJ



RodB

Steve McMahon
01-01-2013, 11:24 PM
I'd could give a flying rats a$$ about where my country ranks. I care about the freedoms and liberties of our citizens and how the gov should protect those freedoms here in the US.

You spend more time trying to prove you and your country's "superiority" that one can only assume a major insecurity problem on your part. Can't get over the fact that socialist agendas in the inner cities are the major cause for the high murder rates?
Where are the highest murder/assault rates Canada, Recardo? And while you're at how about showing us the "quality" of life for all those First Nations people you stuffed in the church schools. The alcohol spread through the trading companies to keep the "locals" dumb and happy. How about some of your logging and mining practices up yonder in the great white north.

You need to take a trip out west and meet some real Canadians where the lowest crime rates are and the highest gun ownership resides. The trip would do you good if you can handle the truth.


LOL - Yes RodSBT, take a trip out west yerself. That's where the highest concentration of gangs are that get there handguns from where??? Hint - not Walmart.
Yes - we have a terrible record for treatment of first nations peoples as does your country and every "new world". It is shameful. Sadly the efforts to move in a positive direction on the native front in Canada has been temporarily suspended by the agenda of our temporary conservative government and their big oil and mining funding partners. All in all though I don't loose sleep if I realize I didn't lock my front door, -how about you?

Keith Wilson
01-01-2013, 11:48 PM
This was, of course, when we were free under the Tsar.From the article in the original post. Enough said.

leikec
01-02-2013, 12:24 AM
From the article in the original post. Enough said.


:d

Jeff C

PeterSibley
01-02-2013, 12:34 AM
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/405182743.jpg

PeterSibley
01-02-2013, 12:35 AM
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/28-12-2012/123335-americans_guns-0/

"No it is about power and a total power over the people. There is a lot of desire to bad mouth the Tsar, particularly by the Communists, who claim he was a tyrant, and yet under him we were armed and under the progressives disarmed. Do not be fooled by a belief that progressives, leftists hate guns. Oh, no, they do not. What they hate is guns in the hands of those who are not marching in lock step of their ideology. They hate guns in the hands of those who think for themselves and do not obey without question. They hate guns in those whom they have slated for a barrel to the back of the ear.
So, do not fall for the false promises and do not extinguish the light that is left to allow humanity a measure of self respect."

Feudalism was good , just ask this bloke.;)

The Russians when to war in 1914 with one rifle for every three men...one definition of armed :d.

Peerie Maa
01-02-2013, 03:50 AM
I'd could give a flying rats a$$ about where my country ranks. I care about the freedoms and liberties of our citizens and how the gov should protect those freedoms here in the US.


Rod, can you describe those freedoms and liberties for a non American? How do they affect your daily life? What do they actually allow you to do that you could not do otherwise?

Clarkey
01-02-2013, 04:53 AM
I'd could give a flying rats a$$ about where my country ranks. I care about the freedoms and liberties of our citizens and how the gov should protect those freedoms here in the US.

You spend more time trying to prove you and your country's "superiority" that one can only assume a major insecurity problem on your part. Can't get over the fact that socialist agendas in the inner cities are the major cause for the high murder rates?
Where are the highest murder/assault rates Canada, Recardo? And while you're at how about showing us the "quality" of life for all those First Nations people you stuffed in the church schools. The alcohol spread through the trading companies to keep the "locals" dumb and happy. How about some of your logging and mining practices up yonder in the great white north.

You need to take a trip out west and meet some real Canadians where the lowest crime rates are and the highest gun ownership resides. The trip would do you good if you can handle the truth.

So, to be clear, you "could give a flying rats [sic] a$$ about where my country ranks" or you could not?

WX
01-02-2013, 05:42 AM
You mean like Cambodia after Pol Pot had his way?

Maybe you should look at how Pol Pot came to power? You might want to start with the US bombing campaign of Cambodia.

WX
01-02-2013, 05:45 AM
http://pic40.picturetrail.com/VOL282/9443996/17245530/405182743.jpg
Good find Peter.:D

Meli
01-02-2013, 06:32 AM
I'd could give a flying rats a$$ about where my country ranks. I care about the freedoms and liberties of our citizens and how the gov should protect those freedoms here in the US.

You spend more time trying to prove you and your country's "superiority" that one can only assume a major insecurity problem on your part. Can't get over the fact that socialist agendas in the inner cities are the major cause for the high murder rates?
Where are the highest murder/assault rates Canada, Recardo? And while you're at how about showing us the "quality" of life for all those First Nations people you stuffed in the church schools. The alcohol spread through the trading companies to keep the "locals" dumb and happy. How about some of your logging and mining practices up yonder in the great white north.

You need to take a trip out west and meet some real Canadians where the lowest crime rates are and the highest gun ownership resides. The trip would do you good if you can handle the truth.

^ This guy reminds me of somebody, ... Something to do with precious bodily fluids??

McMike
01-02-2013, 06:39 AM
Rod, you're disarmed now, one drone and KABOOOOOM, all your guns won't mean squat.

Another question for you my blind and scared friend; if you take the 2nd so strongly as a right to defend yourself against the government, where are you? The government did more to erode the bill of rights in the Bush administration that I'm surprised you big babies didn't stand up to he big bad government? Why not? Scared, or just full of hot air?

RodB
01-02-2013, 12:39 PM
WASHINGTON — The number of FBI background checks for U.S. gun purchases set a record in December, as the Connecticut school massacre prompted renewed talk of limits on firearms, according to new FBI data.

The FBI said it recorded 2.8 million background checks during the month, surpassing the record set in November of 2 million checks.

The number was up 49 percent over December 2011, when the FBI performed a then-record 1.9 million checks.
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/national_world/2013/01/02/gun-sales-set-record.html

Just saying...


http://www.sacbee.com/2012/12/27/5079151/california-gun-sales-increase.html

RodB

ccmanuals
01-02-2013, 12:55 PM
When I lived in Maryland if there was the slightest possibility of a snow storm or actually even a little ice then people would flock to grocery stores to buy milk and toilet paper and lots of it.

Never could figure that one out as well.

Just saying...

Canoez
01-02-2013, 01:02 PM
When I lived in Maryland if there was the slightest possibility of a snow storm or actually even a little ice then people would flock to grocery stores to buy milk and toilet paper and lots of it.

Never could figure that one out as well.

Just saying...

Yeah - and chips and other snack food. Last storm we had the aisle was decimated. Were the chips and snack food a good idea?

pefjr
01-02-2013, 01:17 PM
You're right, Canada is ahead of you in a number of critical areas, including standard living.

You guys win the gun race tho. Bang Bang.Oops......??? Toronto has more Violent Crime than Las Vegas?

http://www.globalnews.ca/crime+rates+in+the+largest+us+cities+how+does+toro nto+compare/6442681613/story.html

Those creative Canucks. They find a way to commit more violent crime than seven of the largest US cities, without guns too. Hmmm... wonder if the rest of Canadians are so creative.


It is so kind of PMJ to dedicate all of his attention to our problems while sacrificing his own countries needs.

Steve McMahon
01-02-2013, 02:19 PM
Oops......??? Toronto has more Violent Crime than Las Vegas?

http://www.globalnews.ca/crime+rates+in+the+largest+us+cities+how+does+toro nto+compare/6442681613/story.html

Those creative Canucks. They find a way to commit more violent crime than seven of the largest US cities, without guns too. Hmmm... wonder if the rest of Canadians are so creative.


It is so kind of PMJ to dedicate all of his attention to our problems while sacrificing his own countries needs.

Your selective interpretation of the data you present is like your selective interpretation of the 2nd amendment. BTW - there are lots of illegal firearms, mostly handguns in Canadian cities, guess where they came from? This is exactly why your northern neighbors get pi$$ed off that you guys can't get it together on this issue.

RodB
01-02-2013, 02:27 PM
http://urbantruthnetwork.wordpress.com/2013/01/01/gun-control-the-very-real-fear-of-the-citizen-militia/

GUN CONTROL, THE VERY REAL FEAR OF THE CITIZEN MILITIA


America was first an idea that a free society was capable of self-governance, but possible only if that society would follow the established rule of laws.

Each of Americas founding fathers signed a letter of secession addressed to those who ruled by tyranny, declaring their unwillingness to unjust rule and thus setting in motion the events which eventually earned the American Republic its independence.

The founders of the American Republic debated ideas and eventually agreed upon and then wrote the documents, the “United States Constitution” and “The Bill of Rights” which are the sovereign laws which govern all of this Republic.

The freedom that was forged in battle then must again be defended today from restrictive oppressions and tyranny at any expense.

Tyranny relentlessly seeks opportunity to take away our freedom, the sovereign rights of every free-born American citizen to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As the year 2012 comes to an end there is enough evidence for all who will but seek the truth to prove the criminal activity of the majority of the elected officials currently holding positions in all offices of the US Federal Government. These men and women, both Republicans and Democrats and even Independents are guilty of crimes against Americas Constitutional Laws and therefore are guilty of crimes committed against the sovereign citizenship.

They were duly elected to safe-guard our individual freedoms and the sovereignty of our homeland. But have instead pillaged, plundered and raped unchecked for decades at the expense of ”We the People” who entrusted theses men and women with positions of power which then corrupted. What was once done in secret is now boldly spoken of due largely to the fact that the majority of Americas citizenship is ignorant of our own historical past.

The ruling elite have but one agenda: To enslave the free-thinking minds of the greatest society of achievers throughout all of world history. Skillfully and methodically these tyrants have written amendments to the United States Constitution which takes away the sovereigns’ rights, only because the ignorant have begged to be ruled while the knowledgeable remained silent and did almost nothing. Legislation will not work when said legislative due-process is controlled by the ruling elite.

The only reason these criminals have not as of yet destroyed our Republic is for the fear they have of the Citizen Militia. There are some 300 million registered guns and untold millions which are unregistered in America, much of which are owned by law abiding citizens. And beginning January 3, 2013 the New Congress will attempt to pass into law what is strictly forbidden by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution.

“A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.”

If we allow the ruling elite to take away our Republics only true security, then America will rapidly cease to be a civil law abiding society. The American people had better wake up from the long-time inoculation of ignorant bliss, to then join together to hold these criminals accountable to the laws they have broken. For in failing to learn from history, we will all very soon relive it!

Another perspective

R

RodB
01-02-2013, 02:35 PM
http://poormansurvival.wordpress.com/2012/12/26/the-truth-about-gun-control-unarmed-citizens-killed-by-law-enforcement/


The Truth About Gun Control, Unarmed citizens killed by Law Enforcement

Number of Innocent Killed by Law Enforcement Annually, Solutions to School Shootings



The Real Facts About Gun-Related Crimes



Each year there are scores of deaths and injuries due to vehicle accidents. Do we hold the auto accountable or the driver? Our society blames the driver so why do we blame the gun instead of the shooter?

*Dan Gross, head of the Brady Campaign used the number of daily gun murders as proof that “gun violence rates are not” going down. But the rate of gun murder is at its lowest point since at least 1981: 3.6 per 100,000 people in 2010. The high point was 7 in 1993. However, non-fatal gun injuries from assaults increased last year for the third straight year, and that rate is the highest since 2008.

*Federal data also show violent crimes committed with guns — including murders, aggravated assaults and robberies — have declined for three straight years.

Funny how armored cars ALWAYS and banks OFTEN have a non-public/police armed guard to protect fiat currencies…but schools NEVER have a private armed guard to protect something much more important to people (their own kids).

*Rep. Donna Edwards said that “since Columbine, there have been 181 of these school shootings.” That’s an inflated figure. She used a list of “major school shootings” supplied by the Brady Campaign that included incidents that were neither shootings nor at schools. By our count, the list shows 130 school shootings since Columbine that resulted in at least one student or school official being killed — still unacceptably high, but a quarter fewer than claimed.

Here are some other facts. The United States has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world — by far. And it has the highest rate of homicides among advanced countries. And yet, gun crime has been declining in the U.S. Firearm murders are down, as is overall gun violence — even as gun ownership increases.

Justice Department Not So Good with Stats on Deaths Caused by Law Enforcement

Statistics are difficult to come by even though the Justice Department is supposed to keep track. The average seems to be 300-400 annually and about 2000 in the past ten years.

Despite widespread public interest and a provision in the 1994 Crime Control Act requiring the Attorney General to collect the data and publish an annual report on them, statistics on police shootings and use of nondeadly force continue to be piecemeal products of spotty collection, and are dependent on the cooperation of local police departments. No comprehensive accounting for all of the nation’s 17,000 police department exists.

The International Chiefs of Police, a police organization, tried in the 1980′s to collect such information, but “the figures were very embarrassing to a lot of police departments,” said James Fyfe, a professor of criminal justice at Temple University who is a former New York City police lieutenant.

Estimated unwarranted deaths by law enforcement are 1-2% each year through guns, car chases, wrongful home entry, etc. Under the Police Accountability Act provisions of the 1994 Crime Control Act, the Justice Department is required to compile and publish regularly detailed national data on police use of force. Such data is not, however, available in any satisfactory form. That private organizations have undertaken to begin such a compilation is highly commendable.

The most revealing fact in the gun-control controversy is that among all of the criminologists who have ever changed their opinion on gun control, EVERY LAST ONE has moved from a position supporting gun control to the side skeptical of gun control and not the other way around… NOT EVEN ONE! Think about the significance of that one simple fact.

Don’t think that just because the police are trained in the use of firearms that they are less likely to kill an innocent person. A University of Chicago Study revealed that in 1993 approximately 700,000 police killed 330 innocent individuals, while approximately 250,000,000 private citizens only killed 30 innocent people.

That still sounds high. So let’s look at it in a different light. According to a study by Newsweek magazine, only 2% of civilian shootings involve an innocent person being shot (not killed). The error rate for police is 11%. What this means is that you are more than 5 times more likely to be accidentally shot by a policeman than by an armed citizen. But, when you consider that citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as do police every year, it means that, per capita, you are more than 11 times more likely to be accidentally shot by a policeman than by an armed citizen.

The Kleck study shows that police shoot and kill around 600 criminals each year. Yet the University of Chicago study shows that police killed 330 innocent individuals in 1993. That means that for every two criminals killed by police, one innocent citizen is killed by police.


Criminologists are the experts who study crime, criminals and their motivation. Their entire career centers around the collection and analysis of statistics surrounding crime and the tools of crime. These are the people who make it their business to know and understand how, when, where, why and by whom guns (or any weapon, for that matter) are used. And, like anyone in any job, they learn more as they grow in the job. So, if the evidence were there to support gun control, wouldn’t you expect that at least a few Criminologists would have switched from opposing gun control to supporting it?

We have armed Air Marshals secretly flying on our planes, why not a similar program for schools? The DHS has plenty of cash to pay for it.

Guns are used for self-defense between 2.1 Million and 2.5 Million times every year. The following facts from the Kleck/Gertz study, relate directly to this fact.

In the vast majority of those self-defense cases, the citizen will only brandish the gun or fire a warning shot.
In less than 8% of those self-defense cases will the citizen will even wound his attacker.
Over 1.9 million of those self-defense cases involve handguns.
As many as 500,000 of those self-defense cases occur away from home.
Almost 10% of those self-defense cases are women defending themselves against sexual assault or abuse.
This means that guns are used 60 times more often to protect the lives of law-abiding citizens than to take a life.
At an estimated 263 million US population, in 1995, when the study was released, it also means that an average of 1 out of every 105 to 125 people that you know will use a gun for self-defense every year.
Dr. Kleck also wrote in his book titled “Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America (Social Institutions and Social Change)” that burglars are more than three and a half times more likely to enter an occupied home in a gun control country than in the USA. Compare the 45% average rate of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands with the 12.7% of the USA.


“In recent years it has been suggested that the Second Amendment protects the “collective” right of states to maintain militias, while it does not protect the right of “the people” to keep and bear arms. If anyone entertained this notion in the period during which the Constitution and the Bill of Rights were debated and ratified, it remains one of the most closely guarded secrets of the eighteenth century, for no known writing surviving from the period between 1787 and 1791 states such a thesis.”
– Steven P. Halbrook
Attorney, author

Interesting, don't you think...unless you hate any facts messing up your predisposed opinions.

RodB

Y Bar Ranch
01-02-2013, 03:03 PM
http://urbantruthnetwork.wordpress.com/2013/01/01/gun-control-the-very-real-fear-of-the-citizen-militia/


Another perspective

R


The ruling elite have but one agenda: To enslave the free-thinking minds of the greatest society of achievers throughout all of world history...

The only reason these criminals have not as of yet destroyed our Republic is for the fear they have of the Citizen Militia.
Do you really believe that?

Seriously?

How'd the Civil War work out for the "Citizen Militia" of the Confederacy? They had armies and navies and artillery, and so were on parity with the state.


Funny how armored cars ALWAYS and banks OFTEN have a non-public/police armed guard to protect fiat currencies…but schools NEVER have a private armed guard to protect something much more important to people (their own kids).
Bad guys typically "kidnap" bags of money much more often kids, who then take lots of time and effort to ransom and turn into bags of money. Etc.

That is one seriously retarded article.

pefjr
01-02-2013, 03:07 PM
Your selective interpretation of the data you present is like your selective interpretation of the 2nd amendment. BTW - there are lots of illegal firearms, mostly handguns in Canadian cities, guess where they came from? This is exactly why your northern neighbors get pi$$ed off that you guys can't get it together on this issue.Interpreted? what? If you don't think the data in the link is correct, then dispute the link. Also, I am as free to interpret the 2nd, as the SCOTUS is, only it don't count. My answer to the 2nd is to abolish it, but that has little to do with the the violent crime rate of Toronto, PMJ, and the US cities comparison. You also missed that it is not about handguns.

wardd
01-02-2013, 03:14 PM
Your selective interpretation of the data you present is like your selective interpretation of the 2nd amendment. BTW - there are lots of illegal firearms, mostly handguns in Canadian cities, guess where they came from? This is exactly why your northern neighbors get pi$$ed off that you guys can't get it together on this issue.

you trying to limit our freedom to ship illegal weapons to canada?

stevebaby
01-02-2013, 03:34 PM
^ This guy reminds me of somebody, ... Something to do with precious bodily fluids??
http://i.minus.com/jv19kDSX7pQts.jpg (http://minus.com/lv19kDSX7pQts)




Nailed it!:D

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-02-2013, 03:49 PM
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/28-12-2012/123335-americans_guns-0/

"No it is about power and a total power over the people. There is a lot of desire to bad mouth the Tsar, particularly by the Communists, who claim he was a tyrant, and yet under him we were armed and under the progressives disarmed. Do not be fooled by a belief that progressives, leftists hate guns. Oh, no, they do not. What they hate is guns in the hands of those who are not marching in lock step of their ideology. They hate guns in the hands of those who think for themselves and do not obey without question. They hate guns in those whom they have slated for a barrel to the back of the ear.
So, do not fall for the false promises and do not extinguish the light that is left to allow humanity a measure of self respect."

Right now Vlad Putin is rather like a czar. And one of his latest schemes is to rehab the legacy of the House of Romonov to make his own his own autocratic position look natural. Anyone who would promote a counter view would be asking to be jailed on trumped up charges, severely eaten or being assassinated outright.
If that's what you hanker you can avail yourself of it. Sooner is better thn later.

Arizona Bay
01-02-2013, 04:03 PM
http://i.minus.com/jv19kDSX7pQts.jpg (http://minus.com/lv19kDSX7pQts)




Nailed it!:D

Indeed, but a lot look more like this:

http://www.linkognito.com/content/2008/11/11/gun.jpg

RodB
01-02-2013, 04:27 PM
Do you really believe that?

Seriously?

How'd the Civil War work out for the "Citizen Militia" of the Confederacy? They had armies and navies and artillery, and so were on parity with the state

I posted the article as it seemed relevant for balance with all the far left comments here. I do think the left have an agenda and its not a good thing for the country. They want an ever expanding government that continues to increase its control over the citizens and is hell bent on destroying us with debt. After observing this current administrations ability to lie and decieve during the campaign and also after observing the first term of this president, that agenda is starting to appear from out of the smoke and mirrors. Most conservatives want no part of Obama's vision for this country, and the comments above about our elected officials ignoring our constitution are true.

RodB

Ian McColgin
01-02-2013, 04:47 PM
Firstly, there are no far left communists here. Farthest left is whole-hearted democratic half-hearted socialism.

Secondly, an article by a pseudo-literate anonomous blatherer will never balance the evils of Gog-Magog.

Thirdly, you had me at, "I do think . . . "

beernd
01-02-2013, 04:47 PM
Oh definitely, I mean, look at all of the gun-oppressed countries in the world, and their horrendous quality of life.



Oh brother
http://timcatalano.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/screen-shot-2010-03-14-at-6-35-44-pm.png?w=300&h=210

Sorry.

And I think this is a lady with some b$$ls :cool:

Y Bar Ranch
01-02-2013, 04:59 PM
I posted the article as it seemed relevant for balance with all the far left comments here.
I'm not a liberal, and I applaud balance, but it needs to be more than in measures of numbers of words. The idea that all that keeps us from the throes of tyranny are the brave private gun owners just does not stand any sort of scrutiny whatsoever. Heck, our democracy made it through a convulsive civil war where "gun owners" tried to break it.

It's our deeply ingrained tradition of giving the finger to tyranny that keeps us from being tyrannized. That tradition involves voting in folks who see things your way, not threatening to overthrow the government if you don't like who the majority elected via the constitutionally approved process.

PeterSibley
01-02-2013, 05:01 PM
I posted the article as it seemed relevant for balance with all the far left comments here. I do think the left have an agenda and its not a good thing for the country. They want an ever expanding government that continues to increase its control over the citizens and is hell bent on destroying us with debt. After observing this current administrations ability to lie and decieve during the campaign and also after observing the first term of this president, that agenda is starting to appear from out of the smoke and mirrors. Most conservatives want no part of Obama's vision for this country, and the comments above about our elected officials ignoring our constitution are true.

RodB

I'd say the debt aspect is bipartisan with strong support from the population. Who wants to pay for what they've already received ?

Peerie Maa
01-02-2013, 05:02 PM
I posted the article as it seemed relevant for balance with all the far left comments here. I do think the left have an agenda and its not a good thing for the country. They want an ever expanding government that continues to increase its control over the citizens and is hell bent on destroying us with debt. After observing this current administrations ability to lie and decieve during the campaign and also after observing the first term of this president, that agenda is starting to appear from out of the smoke and mirrors. Most conservatives want no part of Obama's vision for this country, and the comments above about our elected officials ignoring our constitution are true.

RodB

I would not complain about your politicians lying to you when trying to get elected, They will be calling you anti American if you do that. Don't you know your First (yes the very First) amendment makes that right and proper. :D

RodB
01-02-2013, 05:36 PM
What happens if Obama is wrong headed about ignoring the national debt and the economy heads into a severe downward spiral... ? Say the dollar is devalued overnight and other major players in the world will not accept the dollar any more.

What happens to all those folks on food stamps then?
I can't understand how this country can be so blind to the precarious situation we are in, even if millons are on the Government dole and do not want to give up what they get. Hell, they even want more! Obama has done a good job of making the masses used to getting stuff from the government, now they don't want to give in up... "ever"... and Obama knows he can go for higher and higher taxes in such a situation.

Anyone here happen to watch the NPR documentary "The Doomsayers", where several experts discussed what can happen in several areas that are vitally important to the survival of the country.. Clean water, food supply, oil, the economy and the value of the dollar, etc etc. This country is headed in that direction if we don't stop printing and borrowing money and accumulating a trillion dollar debt per year... Its no joke.

So, tell me how strong our economy is and how much more it can handle wrong headed economic policies with over $ .40 of each dollar spent being borrowed.


RodB

PeterSibley
01-02-2013, 05:47 PM
What happens if Obama is wrong headed about ignoring the national debt and the economy heads into a severe downward spiral... ? Say the dollar is devalued overnight and other major players in the world will not accept the dollar any more.

What happens to all those folks on food stamps then?
I can't understand how this country can be so blind to the precarious situation we are in, even if millons are on the Government dole and do not want to give up what they get. Hell, they even want more! Obama has done a good job of making the masses used to getting stuff from the government, now they don't want to give in up... "ever"... and Obama knows he can go for higher and higher taxes in such a situation.

Anyone here happen to watch the NPR documentary "The Doomsayers", where several experts discussed what can happen in several areas that are vitally important to the survival of the country.. Clean water, food supply, oil, the economy and the value of the dollar, etc etc. This country is headed in that direction if we don't stop printing and borrowing money and accumulating a trillion dollar debt per year... Its no joke.

So, tell me how strong our economy is and how much more it can handle wrong headed economic policies with over $ .40 of each dollar spent being borrowed.


RodB

I agree Rod, you are talking military and farming subsidies aren't you? Some people can never get enough from the government, no matter how rich they are.

wardd
01-02-2013, 05:50 PM
would be tyrants have never been afraid of those with guns

RodB
01-02-2013, 06:13 PM
I agree Rod, you are talking military and farming subsidies aren't you? Some people can never get enough from the government, no matter how rich they are.

What are you smoking? Farming subsidies??? I'm a veteran... thats about it. What percent of people in Austrailia do not work or pay anything into the treasury... just wondered?

RodB

Peerie Maa
01-02-2013, 06:33 PM
What are you smoking? Farming subsidies??? I'm a veteran... thats about it. What percent of people in Austrailia do not work or pay anything into the treasury... just wondered?

RodB

That would be these :D from Wiki


2004 U.S. Crop Subsidies[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#cite_note-19)



Commodity
Millions of US$
Share


Feed grains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed_grain), mostly corn
2,841
35.4%


Upland cotton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upland_cotton) and ELS cotton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELS_cotton)
1,420
17.7%


Wheat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat)
1,173
14.6%


Rice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice)
1,130
14.1%


Soybeans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soybeans) and products
610
7.6%


Dairy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy)
295
3.7%


Peanuts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peanut)
259
3.2%


Sugar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar)
61
0.8%


Minor oilseeds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oilseeds)
29
0.4%


Tobacco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobacco)
18
0.2%


Wool (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wool) and mohair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohair)
12
0.1%



Vegetable oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetable_fats_and_oils) products
11
0.1%


Honey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey)
3
0.0%


Other crops
160
2.0%


Total
8,022
100%


and there is more up to data info here: http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/eib-economic-information-bulletin/eib91.aspx

McMike
01-02-2013, 06:48 PM
What did you say you were number one in again?

Lol, Stoopid.:D

RichKrough
01-02-2013, 06:53 PM
http://i1288.photobucket.com/albums/b498/Oysterhouse1/3E73G83M15E45Ka5Feccp6ca3428c8d89144d1_zps1bea23d0 .jpg

Posting stupid threatening sheot like this is what will ultimately lead to stricter gun controls that will not only limit the idiot Rambo-wannabe's and their AR-15's but affect everyone else who owns a sensible firearm for sport or protection

LeeG
01-02-2013, 06:55 PM
Indeed, but a lot look more like this:

http://www.linkognito.com/content/2008/11/11/gun.jpg

That's a guy who knows he's sexy.

Bob Adams
01-02-2013, 06:59 PM
Damn Lee, I never knew you played the gee tarr!:d

Arizona Bay
01-02-2013, 07:04 PM
American exceptionalism on display

According to the poster, he's only concerned with muggers, car jackers and rapists.

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-02-2013, 07:20 PM
I posted the article as it seemed relevant for balance with all the far left comments here. I do think the left have an agenda and its not a good thing for the country. They want an ever expanding government that continues to increase its control over the citizens and is hell bent on destroying us with debt. After observing this current administrations ability to lie and decieve during the campaign and also after observing the first term of this president, that agenda is starting to appear from out of the smoke and mirrors. Most conservatives want no part of Obama's vision for this country, and the comments above about our elected officials ignoring our constitution are true.

RodB

Au contraire(sic). I want to help you. And you are rather ungrateful.
I gave you the straight skinny that I got out of the New York Times. A newspapr that costs me $2.50 per.

RodB
01-02-2013, 07:20 PM
but then you said this:



PMJ, I didn't make the second comments you posted.. it was another Rod...

Bit it did seem a good response to your comments.

We had a higher rate of folks entering college per capita I believe. Did you bother to look over the other links where Canada and the USA were compared?

http://www.kabobfest.com/2009/06/21-reasons-america-blows-europe-out-of-the-water.html

http://www.topix.com/forum/ca/toronto-on/TN3I4G6BBILBCPL6K

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/10/17/1033151/america-did-better-europe/?mobile=nc

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533343,00.html

http://educationnext.org/compared-to-other-countries-does-the-united-states-really-do-that-badly-in-math/

The best one: http://www.americaisbetterthancanada.com/ :d


R

Chip-skiff
01-02-2013, 09:00 PM
PMJ, I didn't make the second comments you posted.. it was another Rod...

A plague of Rods, it seems.

WX
01-02-2013, 09:19 PM
What are you smoking? Farming subsidies??? I'm a veteran... thats about it. What percent of people in Austrailia do not work or pay anything into the treasury... just wondered?

RodB

Anyone who makes a purchase pays tax.


Australia's unemployment rate decreased 0.1 percentage points to 5.2 per cent in November 2012


Australia's seasonally adjusted unemployment rate decreased 0.1 percentage point to 5.2 per cent in November, as announced by the Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) today.

The ABS reported the number of people employed increased by 13,900 to 11,546,400 in November. The increase in employment was driven by increased part-time employment, up 18,100 people to 3,414,200 and was offset by decreased full-time employment, down 4,200 people to 8,132,200. The increase in employment was driven by increased female part-time employment.

The number of people unemployed decreased by 16,300 people to 637,400 in November, the ABS reported.

Cuyahoga Chuck
01-02-2013, 09:31 PM
PMJ, I didn't make the second comments you posted.. it was another Rod...

Bit it did seem a good response to your comments.

We had a higher rate of folks entering college per capita I believe. Did you bother to look over the other links where Canada and the USA were compared?

http://www.kabobfest.com/2009/06/21-reasons-america-blows-europe-out-of-the-water.html

http://www.topix.com/forum/ca/toronto-on/TN3I4G6BBILBCPL6K

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/10/17/1033151/america-did-better-europe/?mobile=nc

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,533343,00.html

http://educationnext.org/compared-to-other-countries-does-the-united-states-really-do-that-badly-in-math/

The best one: http://www.americaisbetterthancanada.com/ :d


R

We use o have a poster named "genglandoh". His postings were filled with dozens of web addresses bolstering his position just like yours. The similarity is uncanny.

pefjr
01-02-2013, 10:00 PM
Yep, it's my gossip thread, and guess what?

You're not invited:DWrong thread PJ,:d

Horace
01-03-2013, 12:23 AM
This was, of course, when we were free under the Tsar. From the article in the original post. Enough said.A presumed Russian, apparently in Russia, and writing in Pravda, claims that the Russians were more free under the Czar than under the Bolsheviks and the Soviet Union. Just curious: Do you dispute his viewpoint? If so, why, and on what basis?

PeterSibley
01-03-2013, 12:55 AM
They were never free at any time, period.

Horace
01-03-2013, 01:05 AM
They were never free at any time, period.The kulaks, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulak) among others, might have disagreed with you.

PeterSibley
01-03-2013, 01:24 AM
The serfs and factory workers wouldn't have, nor would the soldiers, who were very like slaves. The kulaks were a very small minority in a country with very autocratic ruling class, born to rule of course, like all good aristocrats.

It was a very medieval country.

Horace
01-03-2013, 02:02 AM
Serfdom had been abolished in 1861 in Russia. "By 1912, 16% of peasants (up from 11% in 1903) had relatively large endowments of over 8 acres per male family member (a threshold used in statistics to distinguish between middle-class and prosperous farmers, i.e., kulaks)"*--hardly a "very small minority."

Granted, Czarist Russia lagged far behind western Europe in personal freedom and economic justice. But the Revolution in turn imposed almost universal oppression on its citizenry.

*from Wikipedia

The Bigfella
01-03-2013, 02:37 AM
Yeah.... I had to laugh, one of those links claimed wifi as an American invention. There's hundreds of millions been paid by American companies that infringed some Aussie patents on that one.... with another billion plus to come. Meanwhile....

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000077592/polls_6760gunchimp_5920_88580_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg

WX
01-03-2013, 05:35 AM
Looks like we're copping a bit of US gun spillage here as well.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-03/sydney-police-arrest-us-men-wanted-for-drug-and-firearm-offences/4451812

PeterSibley
01-03-2013, 05:47 AM
Serfdom had been abolished in 1861 in Russia. "By 1912, 16% of peasants (up from 11% in 1903) had relatively large endowments of over 8 acres per male family member (a threshold used in statistics to distinguish between middle-class and prosperous farmers, i.e., kulaks)"*--hardly a "very small minority."

Granted, Czarist Russia lagged far behind western Europe in personal freedom and economic justice. But the Revolution in turn imposed almost universal oppression on its citizenry.

*from Wikipedia

Wow ! 16%, I think we have different definitions of a "very small minority".

The Revolution was abhorrent from a Western point of view but it also enabled Russia to go from a GDP that was 13% of Britain's in 1913 in 1926 to being able to repel the Wehrmach 19 years later. Had the Nazis been successful IIRC they planned to "depopulate " Russia, something they were gaining experience at.

History is a windy path of unintended consequences.

Peerie Maa
01-03-2013, 07:38 AM
Has anyone seen RodBST? I put a question to him a while back, but . . . . crickets :D

hanleyclifford
01-03-2013, 08:34 AM
Looks like we're copping a bit of US gun spillage here as well.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-03/sydney-police-arrest-us-men-wanted-for-drug-and-firearm-offences/4451812 Those good old boys used to run whiskey too!

Portland
01-03-2013, 04:57 PM
Yep , a few more fore YOUR jails !.
Rob J.

John of Phoenix
01-18-2013, 04:35 PM
:D reds in support of the Tsar and quoting Pravda to make it all the better! :D

Life is good. Life is GOOD! :D

John of Phoenix
01-18-2013, 04:39 PM
Has Rupert bought Pravda?
Alien from Sirius denies orgies with youngsters

Lew Barrett
01-18-2013, 05:03 PM
Wow ! 16%, I think we have different definitions of a "very small minority".

The Revolution was abhorrent from a Western point of view but it also enabled Russia to go from a GDP that was 13% of Britain's in 1913 in 1926 to being able to repel the Wehrmach 19 years later. Had the Nazis been successful IIRC they planned to "depopulate " Russia, something they were gaining experience at.

History is a windy path of unintended consequences.

Your comment precedes my own.


Serfdom had been abolished in 1861 in Russia. "By 1912, 16% of peasants (up from 11% in 1903) had relatively large endowments of over 8 acres per male family member (a threshold used in statistics to distinguish between middle-class and prosperous farmers, i.e., kulaks)"*--hardly a "very small minority."

Granted, Czarist Russia lagged far behind western Europe in personal freedom and economic justice. But the Revolution in turn imposed almost universal oppression on its citizenry.

*from Wikipedia

Serfdom, but not servitude. It wasn't hard to get on the wrong side of things in Tsarist Russia and end up chained to your work, or worse. (http://exit78.com/shchedrin-a-political-prisoner-in-russia-c-1882/)

In fact, I don't disagree that given the choice I'd probably (or almost certainly) have preferred to live under the Czars than under Stalin, but that's like being asked what kind of feces you'd like on your sandwich. Some choices are marginally easier to swallow than others.

I find the analogy difficult because both systems were corrupt. It is impossible to defend Stalin given how horrendous he was. I'd imagine it was better under the Romanovs who were nonetheless inbred nepotists with an ill advised sense of history and almost no ability to rule the largest country by land mass in the world. People still died of hunger every year, the jails were full and it was past time to move along. The Soviet development was dreadful and now they have Putin. The Russians are nobody to learn history from unless you are interested in how not to do it.

Lamentations for the good old Tsarist days, or suggesting that the very existence of the Kulaks displays the equanimity of a system that could trace directly back to Ivan the Terrible is a bit like any lamentation for any "good old days." They were good for some, I suppose.

I hear some Spaniards miss Franco too. Things were orderly then.