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Rum_Pirate
12-23-2012, 09:01 PM
When tying a bowline should the bitter end finish inside the loop or outside the loop?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Standard_bowline_vs_cowboy_bowline.svg/350px-Standard_bowline_vs_cowboy_bowline.svg.png

JMAC
12-23-2012, 09:04 PM
I don't know how it "should" be done...mine are like the drawing on the left....nobody has gotten hurt...

Rob Hazard
12-23-2012, 09:20 PM
Inside.

John B
12-23-2012, 09:24 PM
Dunno what's right , but B just ain't natural.

edit , well it isn't even called b is it ,but you know what I mean.

Paul Pless
12-23-2012, 09:28 PM
Dunno what's right , but B just ain't natural.ain't that called a dutch bowline?:d

skuthorp
12-23-2012, 09:31 PM
Inside is what I was taught.
I bet the Dutch call the other either an English or American bowline:d

CWSmith
12-23-2012, 09:37 PM
For safety sake I was drilled to try a bowline around my waste in the dark with one hand. It's easy, although it takes more rope these days. It always ends up like the image on the left. However, I doubt the knot on the right would fail.

Ian McColgin
12-23-2012, 09:46 PM
B is the cowboy bowline. A is the sailor's way. Farmers can't tie either.

Draketail
12-23-2012, 09:48 PM
I believe Brion Toss makes the case for the bowline on the left in "The Rigger's Apprentice."

Ian McColgin
12-23-2012, 09:52 PM
The case for the sailor's bowline is that the bitter end won't be exposed outside the loop to foul on anything, as is especially troubling tieing on a jib sheet from the wrong side with a cowboy bowline.

Ron Williamson
12-23-2012, 09:53 PM
I learned the left way from my dad,one handed,around my waist.
The other way was argued by firefighter/rescue types who were in my Power Squadron course.
R

John B
12-23-2012, 09:54 PM
maybe its one of those hemispherical things like the bathwater down the plug'ole..

You know... down here , the rabbit comes out of the hole and turns left around the tree. Up there , well... cowboys.

htom
12-23-2012, 10:44 PM
Sailor and cowboy. Sailor worries (and properly) about the tag hanging up on some thing exterior, the cowboy worries about the tag hanging up on the inside (where it will foul his lariat.) The "proper" way to tie a lariat is with a honda and a fancy stopper, however. Supposedly one is stronger in some applications, the other in the other, and which is which I no longer remember. I consider an Alpine Loop safer than either for rescue work.

Ian McColgin
12-23-2012, 10:53 PM
The Alpine Loop is a superb mid-line knot of almost no value or reliability at the end of a line. The beloved bowline is not always the best knot as it does reduce the strength of the line considerably - 40% if memory serves. A figure eight loop knot has better strength but is hard to tie if the line must be passed around the load first and is very hard to snug up. Given the great strength of modern lines, the bowline is good for a direct tie, the figure eight loop giving more line strength if you secure it to a 'biner on a harness, and the harness allows you to survive harsher falls than direct tie, thus you need more line strength.

The Bigfella
12-24-2012, 01:35 AM
So, b is on the left and a on the right?

Gib Etheridge
12-24-2012, 02:30 AM
Clifford Ashley shows it as the knot on the left. As I remember it he mentions using the cofiguration on the right and says that it is just as secure. He also points out that it is important to work it down snugly to prevent capsizing the knot. Times when I've been concerned that it might work loose I have seized the bitter end to the loop, either with electrician's tape (temporary) or small line or stainless or copper wire. Times when none of that was available I just tuck the bitter end under one or two strands of the loop when using three strand, as in splicing.

Meli
12-24-2012, 03:19 AM
Rabbits
out the hole, round the tree and back in the hole.
so inside.

AndyG
12-24-2012, 07:18 AM
For safety sake I was drilled to try a bowline around my waste in the dark with one hand.

Yeeeuwwww!

Andy

Mrleft8
12-24-2012, 08:07 AM
I prefer an inside bowline, but some riggers I know insist that an outside bowline is safer because it's less likely that the bitter end will get pinched. If you need to free your line in a hurry, a pinched bitter end, they say, could be a disaster. (I usually respond by opening my knife.)

Nicholas Scheuer
12-24-2012, 08:10 AM
The two methods of tying a one-handed Bowline I learned in the Boy Scouts end up like the one on the left, inside.

Ian McColgin
12-24-2012, 08:13 AM
Good job AndyG. I didn't learn the one-hand method till I saw Paul Newman do it in a movie. I later read that's the way Brion Toss learned it and he puts the method in his book quite clearly for all to see. My other favorite way to tie it is the capsizing overhand knot method since it's fast and easy if you must pass the bitter end around a tall piling and then tie off.

There are a half-dozen ways to tie the bowline that are superior to the Boy Scouts' darn rabbit.

Meli
12-24-2012, 08:28 AM
The trouble withthe dammrabbit is they neglect to tell youtomake the hole in your left hand first.

OK
simple

hold the line in your left hand with the long end toward your body.
take the short end and flip it to the left, making a loop with the short end on top of the long end and hold the X of the loop with your left thumb and forefinger, the short end of the rope should be on the top of the loop X.
now you have made the rabbit hole.
holding the top rope of the X, the short end of the rope is the rabbit,
now the rabbit comes up the hole, you take the short end up through the loop..
the rabbit runs around whatever you are fixing the rope through or around.
so, run your rabbit around the object, and back down through the hole you are holdingin your left hand.
simple if you make the rabbit hole and the bush in two separate steps.

And it i can type this when half tanked, using an imaginary bit of rope, you can tie it :D

Paul Pless
12-24-2012, 08:31 AM
And it i can type this when half tanked, using an imaginary bit of rope, you can tie it :Dvelvet rope tonight? :D

Ian McColgin
12-24-2012, 08:35 AM
There was a New Zealand (as I recall, perhaps inaccurately) mountaineering writer who in his little book of knots rose to the challenge of providing an entirely written, no pix, instruction for tying a bowline. Just to show off, he did it in one sentence. I no longer have the book, but it was a slim little thing with a title like "The Uses and Abuses of Knots" - or not. I really cannot recall. Someone on this Forum must have it, can find the dare and that author's rising to it in the preface or intro or someplace up front, and type it all into here for us all to enjoy . . .

Meli
12-24-2012, 08:40 AM
velvet rope tonight? :D

More like wooly stockings.
bow lines are easy if you make the loop first.
I cant sail for nuts but tie a mean bowline:d

John Smith
12-24-2012, 08:42 AM
Many, many years ago I bought a friend a "knot board" It was very inexpensive, came with two pieces of rope and instructions for a variety of knots. I looked for one a few years ago with no luck.

Anyone know of a source for one. I thought it might make a nice gift for one of my grandkids, and I could sure use a refresher course in knots; when to use them and how to tie them.

Paul Pless
12-24-2012, 08:44 AM
I can't believe that neither Vince nor Gareth have contributed to this thread. . .

Nicholas Scheuer
12-24-2012, 09:17 AM
John Smith, several years ago I was given a not board on top of a box about the size of a cigar box. Inside the box were some lengths of sall stuff, a few articles of hardware appropriate for various knots, and an instruction booklet. The thing was obviously made offshore. Try googling "knot board gift".

Mrleft8
12-24-2012, 09:31 AM
I can't believe that neither Vince nor Gareth have contributed to this thread. . .

Or Hughman....
But maybe they all have more interesting things to do today....... (Nah! ;))

John Smith
12-24-2012, 09:49 AM
John Smith, several years ago I was given a not board on top of a box about the size of a cigar box. Inside the box were some lengths of sall stuff, a few articles of hardware appropriate for various knots, and an instruction booklet. The thing was obviously made offshore. Try googling "knot board gift".
Mostlly finds mounted knots on a board for hanging on the wall. Did find a couple of instruction boards. I'll keep looking.

I have no idea what became of the one I had. I did find this: http://www.animatedknots.com/essential.php?Categ=home&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com Have no idea how to wrap it.

Ian McColgin
12-24-2012, 09:50 AM
Knot boards are young people's projects but the best are tricked out nicely to hang over a yacht club bar or such. So make one. It will make you young again.

Willin'
12-24-2012, 10:02 AM
I don't understand Rummy's initial question. Perhaps illuminating it with pix of bikini clad cuties actually putting a bowline to good use on a wooden 12 meter would clarify things.

Ron Williamson
12-24-2012, 01:07 PM
I don't understand Rummy's initial question. Perhaps illuminating it with pix of bikini clad cuties actually putting a bowline to good use on a wooden 12 meter would clarify things.

....Or p'rhaps, playing Twister.
R

jclays
12-24-2012, 09:17 PM
Done both no difference.

Breakaway
12-24-2012, 11:54 PM
I think its really a rightie-lefty thing. A Southpaw would just naturally tie the one on the right.

Kevin

gilberj
12-25-2012, 12:39 AM
both function pretty much the same.....they both make a stable eye, that can be untied when finished. I use both, depending on where I want the tail end.....inside-protected or in the way....outside-out of the way.