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View Full Version : tumbling bullets and other myths and mistruths



Paul Pless
12-18-2012, 10:31 AM
I'm listening to Diane Rhem right now. Her panel expert on firearms just described how the AR-15 design, since Vietnam, relies on tumbling bullets to cause the maximum amount of damage. Pure frikking ridiculousness. Just as gun rights advocates should be held accountable for their various political stances and for their statements; the left owes the nation a responsibility for accuracy and truthfulness in this debate as well.

Gerarddm
12-18-2012, 10:35 AM
Was that not the original hype when Stoner first created the AR? Small round, high velocity, tumbles, massive damage?

Paul Pless
12-18-2012, 10:36 AM
and on what basis to you assign this one's guy's statements as being something the "left" is responsible for?very generally speaking

Paul Pless
12-18-2012, 10:38 AM
Was that not the original hype when Stoner first created the AR? Small round, high velocity, tumbles, massive damage?

a tumbling bullet is completely at odds with the purpose of a rifled gun in the first place

Stoner's original concept was for a .308 not a .223. That choice was NATO driven. . .

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 11:21 AM
Was that not the original hype when Stoner first created the AR? Small round, high velocity, tumbles, massive damage?

hype is just that, hype. Reading the thinking when firelocks first were used in battle... guns with round ball bullets were used to kill Christians and square bullets were for killing heathen... Paul is right... tumbling bullets is a myth and yet I still encounter people who not only preach tumbling bullets but get mad if you contradict them.. not unlike political party hate speech

Diane Rhem is a nice old lady who not only knows nothing but has no idea that she knows nothing

LeeG
12-18-2012, 11:23 AM
Oh Paul, that's picking nits

wardd
12-18-2012, 11:26 AM
the hype is that it tumbles after entering the body, not in flight

an understanding of the different phases of ballistics may be in order

do the terms internal, external and terminal mean anything?

Paul Pless
12-18-2012, 11:27 AM
the hype is that it tumbles after entering the body, not in flightdoesn't do that either

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 11:28 AM
the hype is that it tumbles after entering the body, not in flight

an understanding of the different phases of ballistics may be in order

bullets sometimes tumble... it can even be designed into them but doing that causes instability in flight as well... counter productive... bullets are NOT magic

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 11:29 AM
Oh Paul, that's picking nits

no... it is not. it is clear that the referenced 'experts' are not... or they are lying...

wardd
12-18-2012, 11:33 AM
Mk 318 mod 0 This cartridge has a 62-grain projectile. It fragments quite well on impact while retaining adequate penetration due to its design; it has an all-copper bullet with an open tip, and a solid body (allowing the rear part of the bullet to penetrate beyond the original wound, and through some barriers).

http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/5.56x45mm_NATO

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 11:35 AM
it doesn't tumble, wardd... get a dictionary

seanz
12-18-2012, 11:47 AM
I'm listening to Diane Rhem right now. Her panel expert on firearms just described how the AR-15 design, since Vietnam, relies on tumbling bullets to cause the maximum amount of damage. Pure frikking ridiculousness. Just as gun rights advocates should be held accountable for their various political stances and for their statements; the left owes the nation a responsibility for accuracy and truthfulness in this debate as well.

Because, where else are you going to get your accuracy and truthfulness from?


I'd like to see this "magic bullet" type of talk finally put to rest. Who cares if the bullet, tumbles, zig-zags, pirouettes, or not, in the greater scheme of things it doesn't matter that much.

Chip-skiff
12-18-2012, 11:59 AM
I'd like to see this "magic bullet" type of talk finally put to rest. Who cares if the bullet, tumbles, zig-zags, pirouettes, or not, in the greater scheme of things it doesn't matter that much.

I first heard the "tumbling bullet" thing from Vietnam vets who actually used the rifle, so the misinformation is general and not restricted to "the left." It didn't make sense to me at the time. But there are quite a few popular myths mixed up in this discussion that seem equally nonsensical. So let's skip that part for now.

My understanding of the rounds that ought to be banned for public sale are that they have a soft nose and a partial casing of harder metal. On impact, the nose mushrooms and splits the round into several fragments of soft, dense metal backed with a hard layer, that bounce and spin inside the body of the victim, doing maximum damage. Is that more-or-less accurate?

Chris Coose
12-18-2012, 12:05 PM
I don't know much about it but if you take 10 or 12 of those bullets to the body or 4 in the cap, tumblin or straight on, it's gonna hurt bad.

http://st.depositphotos.com/1614004/1210/i/950/depositphotos_12106223-.223-Caliber-Bullet.jpg

“Everybody’s death was caused by gunshot wounds and obviously the manner of death on all these cases have been classified as homicide,” Carver said.
He said that he personally performed seven autopsies and those children had between three and 11 wounds each. Two of them were shot at close range, the others at a distance."

http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/d/35593-2/expanded+223+bonded+bullet+1.jpg


Ouch!!!!

Joe (SoCal)
12-18-2012, 12:14 PM
Yea Im sure the little 6 year old just before he got tagged by the second or third tap of the NON AUTO fully legal bushmaster said to himself gee I wonder if its true or a myth about the tumbling bullet. Cause ya know that kinda crap is so important right now.

Gun enthusiasts make me fooking sick.

Chris Coose
12-18-2012, 12:17 PM
Jesus Joe, do you have to get so sensational about it?

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 12:19 PM
Yea Im sure the little 6 year old just before he got tagged by the second or third tap of the NON AUTO fully legal bushmaster said to himself gee I wonder if its true or a myth about the tumbling bullet. Cause ya know that kinda crap is so important right now.

Gun enthusiasts make me fooking sick.

I can see that you are sick, Joe, but I'm not sure about the cause

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 12:21 PM
That's definitely nit-picking.

If you get hit by a bullet from an AR, you wouldn't care much if it tumbles or not.

I don't know if AR bullets tumble, but I do know that it's part of the mythology of the weapon. That is to say, some people buy ARs because they have been told that the bullets tumble, do more damage and have more 'stopping power.'

Again: I don't know if it's true or not.... but some people find this appealing.

you are displaying your ignorance... don't worry, we're all ignorant... just about different things

Chip-skiff
12-18-2012, 12:23 PM
you are displaying your ignorance... don't worry, we're all ignorant... just about different things

But the ignorance does not seem– to use a statistical term— to be evenly distributed.

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 12:24 PM
Because, where else are you going to get your accuracy and truthfulness from?


I'd like to see this "magic bullet" type of talk finally put to rest. Who cares if the bullet, tumbles, zig-zags, pirouettes, or not, in the greater scheme of things it doesn't matter that much.

it does matter in that is is obvious that sensationalism is the goal... the obvious goal... and that casts doubt on the integrity of the story teller... just like lj claiming that a lie isn't important (in this case)

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 12:24 PM
But the ignorance does not seem– to use a statistical term— to be evenly distributed.
nope (I agree)

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 12:25 PM
I'm still trying to figure out why it matters. If the bullet tumbles, and you're dead... or if the bullet doesn't tumble, and you're dead.....

....how exactly does it matter? Why are we even discussing it? Dead is dead, isn't it?

see post 24 to understand the agenda

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 12:27 PM
I don't know much about it but if you take 10 or 12 of those bullets to the body or 4 in the cap, tumblin or straight on, it's gonna hurt bad.

http://st.depositphotos.com/1614004/1210/i/950/depositphotos_12106223-.223-Caliber-Bullet.jpg

“Everybody’s death was caused by gunshot wounds and obviously the manner of death on all these cases have been classified as homicide,” Carver said.
He said that he personally performed seven autopsies and those children had between three and 11 wounds each. Two of them were shot at close range, the others at a distance."

http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/d/35593-2/expanded+223+bonded+bullet+1.jpg


Ouch!!!!

contrary to Chris's implication, these bullets did not kill those children... so much for emotional stampeding, Chris, old pal:) I'm sure you'll try again though

seanz
12-18-2012, 12:29 PM
I first heard the "tumbling bullet" thing from Vietnam vets who actually used the rifle, so the misinformation is general and not restricted to "the left." It didn't make sense to me at the time. But there are quite a few popular myths mixed up in this discussion that seem equally nonsensical. So let's skip that part for now.

My understanding of the rounds that ought to be banned for public sale are that they have a soft nose and a partial casing of harder metal. On impact, the nose mushrooms and splits the round into several fragments of soft, dense metal backed with a hard layer, that bounce and spin inside the body of the victim, doing maximum damage. Is that more-or-less accurate?

Here's the Wiki article on the NATO round. It's actually less 'stable' than I thought it was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

What type of bullet was used at Sandy Hook? I have no idea, and I don't think it matters that much. What's the difference between being shot dead by a 'nice' straight traveling bullet and a nasty twisty yawing bullet?

Chris Coose
12-18-2012, 12:29 PM
Why are we even discussing it? Dead is dead, isn't it?

The original post indicates that some people don't know what they are talking about when it comes to firearms.

Mutilated 1st graders and how they came to be that way is the problem. Gun enthusiasts think we care right now.

These specific gun characteristics will be discussed as the list of prohibition gets assembled. Then they can explain tumblin.

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 12:30 PM
I first heard the "tumbling bullet" thing from Vietnam vets who actually used the rifle, so the misinformation is general and not restricted to "the left." It didn't make sense to me at the time. But there are quite a few popular myths mixed up in this discussion that seem equally nonsensical. So let's skip that part for now.

My understanding of the rounds that ought to be banned for public sale are that they have a soft nose and a partial casing of harder metal. On impact, the nose mushrooms and splits the round into several fragments of soft, dense metal backed with a hard layer, that bounce and spin inside the body of the victim, doing maximum damage. Is that more-or-less accurate?

expanding bullets are required by law for hunting

non expanding bullets are required by convention for war

Joe (SoCal)
12-18-2012, 12:30 PM
Jesus Joe, do you have to get so sensational about it?

Yea I do cause this BS tech gun snob rhetoric pisses me the fook off :( All this talk about NATO round, Stopping power, the ever present GOT YA ya called a semi auto auto so I win the argument bull****e.

They talk about their beloved WEAPONS designed to tear holes in flesh with hot lead as if they were talking about a fine Cabernet or an aged Gouda. ITS A FOOKING KILLING TOOL.

In the meantime the people burring there dead dont care about, velocity, trajectory, grain count. They just want their lives back but because some nut went tap tap tap tappity tap tap they never will.

For once I would like to see some gun "enthusiast" ( what an oxymoron its like saying your a crack enthusiast ) take the high road and go ya know what who cares about the tech talk lets get down to business and make our children and community safer. It reminds me of how after 9/11 i was looking for outspoken Muslims who were openly denouncing the act and offering to work and help rebuild.

Chris Coose
12-18-2012, 12:31 PM
contrary to Chris's implication, these bullets did not kill those children... so much for emotional stampeding, Chris, old pal:) I'm sure you'll try again though

You are correct these are pictures of .223s. The bullets that horrifically ended these little kid's lives came out of the end of a military style assault rifle.

Chip-skiff
12-18-2012, 12:33 PM
What type of bullet was used at Sandy Hook? I have no idea, and I don't think it matters that much. What's the difference between being shot dead by a 'nice' straight traveling bullet and a nasty twisty yawing bullet?

It seems to make a difference to P-Less and Phillip, et al. I don't like being typed as an ignorant lefty.

There were no doubt Catholic theologians of past eras who disputed over the sort of firewood most suited to the burning of witches. People will argue over any bloody thing.

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 12:33 PM
That is hardly an explanation. This thread started off as if it actually mattered.... to people, to the nation, and to the national grief... whether the bullets tumble or not.

I submit that the question is of trivial importance... to the dead, OR to their families.

trivial to the families of deceased but NOT trivial to those trying for emotional driving of public opinion... don't get the two separate topics confounded, Norman

One side lies in their grave
The other side lies in their teeth

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 12:36 PM
here ya go... hate this

http://gizmodo.com/5378302/watch-ten-minutes-of-glorious-bullet-impacts-at-1000000-fps

seanz
12-18-2012, 12:38 PM
It seems to make a difference to P-Less and Phillip, et al. I don't like being typed as an ignorant lefty.

There were no doubt Catholic theologians of past eras who disputed over the sort of firewood most suited to the burning of witches. People will argue over any bloody thing.

We could argue over the thread title. Where are the other myths and mistruths?

Chris Coose
12-18-2012, 12:38 PM
The other side lies in their teeth

You'll continue to correct us as we march this country in a new direction of sanity. But you and your crew are very small these days.

seanz
12-18-2012, 12:41 PM
here ya go... hate this

http://gizmodo.com/5378302/watch-ten-minutes-of-glorious-bullet-impacts-at-1000000-fps

If only little children were made of concrete.........

Joe (SoCal)
12-18-2012, 12:42 PM
here ya go... hate this

http://gizmodo.com/5378302/watch-ten-minutes-of-glorious-bullet-impacts-at-1000000-fps


Watch Ten Minutes of Glorious Bullet Impacts at 1,000,000 FPS

Great :o :rolleyes: Bullet porn all set to techno house beat.

"Awww Shucks You really need to get ( find a woman )

edited to prevent self banning

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 12:49 PM
Great :o :rolleyes: Bullet porn all set to techno house beat.

"Awww Shucks You really need to get ( find a woman )

edited to prevent self banning

that FPS is frames persecond and refers to the camera... thank you for pointing that out, Joe

Joe (SoCal)
12-18-2012, 12:56 PM
that FPS is frames persecond and refers to the camera... thank you for pointing that out, Joe

Hey IQ stud I knew what the FPS stood for. I have a camera, I take pictures would you like to discuss f/stops and medium format vs digital backs on a hasselblads ? Or OMFG am I just convauting the conversation with meaningless facts and making myself feel far superior ???

Paul Pless
12-18-2012, 12:57 PM
It seems to make a difference to P-Less and Phillip, et al. I don't like being typed as an ignorant lefty.


Maybe you're right and accuracy and honesty don't have a place here. Let sensationalism rule the day. That's what you want out of debate and ultimately our of democracy?

The reason it matters, is that the hyperbolic falsehoods described by this 'expert' served to make the weapon look uglier and more evil than it is in fact. As if such hyperbole were even needed after the events of last Friday. It was used to create an emotional feeling of evil intent. I'm baffled by much of what's gone on in our country of late, with regards to the absence of sane regulation of firearms, but one thing that I know for sure, no inanimate object is either inherently good or inherently evil.

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 01:01 PM
Hey IQ stud I knew what the FPS stood for. I have a camera, I take pictures would you like to discuss f/stops and medium format vs digital backs on a hasselblads ? Or OMFG am I just convauting the conversation with meaningless facts and making myself feel far superior ???

I figured you knew, Joe, I just was considering that many people here might think you were claiming the bullets were traveling an 1,000,000 fet per second... and some would have believed it

B_B
12-18-2012, 01:01 PM
One side lies in their grave
The other side lies in their teeth
You ain't in the grave, and you got no teeth. So what's your excuse?

LeeG
12-18-2012, 01:02 PM
no... it is not. it is clear that the referenced 'experts' are not... or they are lying...

Yes it is

Gerarddm
12-18-2012, 01:03 PM
The Wiki article on the NATO cartridge mentioned the yaw effect of the round after entry quite often. If you want to substitute 'yaw' instead of 'tumbling', Phillip, I guess the overall effect is the same, and the point of your post is, ah, emasculated.

seanz
12-18-2012, 01:05 PM
Maybe you're right and accuracy and honesty don't have a place here. Let sensationalism rule the day. That's what you want out of debate and ultimately our of democracy?

OMG, Gore's gunna take away our guns. OMG, Kerry's gunna take away our guns. OMG, Obama's gunna take away our guns (X2). And you're complaining about sensationalism from the Left?

Chip-skiff
12-18-2012, 01:05 PM
Maybe you're right and accuracy and honesty don't have a place here. Let sensationalism rule the day.

You started it, sport.

Distorting what I said seems to be necessary to your turn as Male Drama Queen. So I'll duck behind the curtain and leave the stage to you.

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 01:07 PM
The Wiki article on the NATO cartridge mentioned the yaw effect of the round after entry quite often. If you want to substitute 'yaw' instead of 'tumbling', Phillip, I guess the overall effect is the same, and the point of your post is, ah, emasculated.

look at the pics of bullet impacts... many do in fact yaw... and are not designed to. It's just the effect of hitting what ever object they encountered... it's always been this way but some marketer was working on a selling point to earn his commission... it seems some here actually believed the 'car salesman'

Paul Pless
12-18-2012, 01:12 PM
OMG, Gore's gunna take away our guns. OMG, Kerry's gunna take away our guns. OMG, Obama's gunna take away our guns (X2). And you're complaining about sensationalism from the Left?I never was engaged by that fear mongering before. Mostly I haven't ever given a damn one way or the other about gun rights debates, other than to point out the 'stupid'. But this time I'm coming down firmly on the side of we have a problem and we need to address it. Its important to me to do so honestly. If some consider it nitpicking, why have they gone out of their way to post to such a thread?

Paul Pless
12-18-2012, 01:15 PM
You started it, sport. I'm not sure I understand.
Distorting what I said seems to be necessary to your turn as Male Drama Queen. So I'll duck behind the curtain and leave the stage to you.I'm quite sure I don't understand. If I've offended you, it certainly wasn't intentional, and I'd be happy to correct any misstatements directed at you.

LeeG
12-18-2012, 01:16 PM
. If some consider it nitpicking, why have they gone out of their way to post to such a thread?

Yr a charming personality and folks like to be seen with you!

beernd
12-18-2012, 01:18 PM
Yea Im sure the little 6 year old just before he got tagged by the second or third tap of the NON AUTO fully legal bushmaster said to himself gee I wonder if its true or a myth about the tumbling bullet. Cause ya know that kinda crap is so important right now.

Gun enthusiasts make me fooking sick.

I perfectly get your point, people are now discussing things like, "If this would have been a tumbling bullit more of the brain would have stayed in the skull, of the murder victim"

This whole discussion is getting so sick!

leikec
12-18-2012, 01:22 PM
OMG, Gore's gunna take away our guns. OMG, Kerry's gunna take away our guns. OMG, Obama's gunna take away our guns (X2). And you're complaining about sensationalism from the Left?

Exactly.

Jeff C

seanz
12-18-2012, 01:25 PM
I never was engaged by that fear mongering before. Mostly I haven't ever given a damn one way or the other about gun rights debates, other than to point out the 'stupid'. But this time I'm coming down firmly on the side of we have a problem and we need to address it. Its important to me to do so honestly. If some consider it nitpicking, why have they gone out of their way to post to such a thread?

You weren't? I believe you. The scale of the hysteria and emotionalism from the pro-gun side must be acknowledged, I believe. I'm glad that it's important to you that you need to address the problem honestly. Just try not to get too discouraged by the 'swirl' of the debate.

beernd
12-18-2012, 01:27 PM
OK gun lovers here is a question for you: Suppose you have to choose between getting rid of your guns or have to get rid of your guns, what would you choose? ;)

B_B
12-18-2012, 01:27 PM
OMG, Gore's gunna take away our guns. OMG, Kerry's gunna take away our guns. OMG, Obama's gunna take away our guns (X2). And you're complaining about sensationalism from the Left?
Stock chart for Ruger since Obama's election:
http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2012/12/17/ruger_s_share_price_is_up_over_500_since_obama_s_e lection/1355777492798.png.CROP.article568-large.png

pefjr
12-18-2012, 01:29 PM
I'm listening to Diane Rhem right now. Her panel expert on firearms just described how the AR-15 design, since Vietnam, relies on tumbling bullets to cause the maximum amount of damage. Pure frikking ridiculousness. Just as gun rights advocates should be held accountable for their various political stances and for their statements; the left owes the nation a responsibility for accuracy and truthfulness in this debate as well.I would say that Diane Rhem's panel expert is a tumbler, his/her accuracy on firearms suffers, consider the source.

seanz
12-18-2012, 01:32 PM
Stock chart for Ruger since Obama's election:
http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2012/12/17/ruger_s_share_price_is_up_over_500_since_obama_s_e lection/1355777492798.png.CROP.article568-large.png

Maybe the USA is a country that has responsible gun-owners and a truly irresponsible gun industry.


I did...I checked all the major suppliers of ammo looking for an "AR" bullet and couldn't find a single listing....just what is an AR bullet?

The AR bullet is a myth. Once-upon-a-time it was used by pirates to shoot trolls.

wardd
12-18-2012, 01:36 PM
the second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear muzzle loading long rifles

Phillip Allen
12-18-2012, 01:37 PM
the second amendment gives us the right to keep and bear muzzle loading long rifles

and limites us to non electronic communication

seanz
12-18-2012, 01:51 PM
and limites us to non electronic communication


The second amendment, it's magical, it can mean whatever you want it to.

Paul Pless
12-18-2012, 01:52 PM
Sorry for nitpicking and otherwise coming across as being disingenuous; that was not my intention. There are enough other relevant threads going that no one should miss the chance to comment on this one too very much.