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Soundbounder
12-01-2012, 07:07 AM
The case against Michael Dunn, a software developer charged with second-degree murder in the shooting of a 17-year-old Jacksonville student at a convenience store, hinges on a shotgun.


Mr. Dunn told his lawyer that he fired his handgun eight times on Nov. 23 only after one of the four teenagers in a car threatened him and pointed a shotgun his way. Two of the gunshots killed the teenager, Jordan Davis, a high school senior who wanted to join the Marine Corps. But so far, Jacksonville law enforcement officers have not found a shotgun.

Jordan Davis’s father, Ron Davis, a retired Delta Air Lines employee, said he was not surprised.
“There wasn’t a gun,” Mr. Davis said in an interview. “They were just kids, 17-year-old kids. They have never been in trouble. The kids had no weapon, they had no drugs in the car.”

He said that Mr. Dunn, 45, who lives three hours south of Jacksonville in Satellite Beach and was in town for his son’s wedding, is trying to bolster a self-defense claim by placing a weapon in Mr. Davis’s son’s hands.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/01/us/shotgun-report-central-in-florida-shooting-case.html?ref=us

S/V Laura Ellen
12-01-2012, 08:51 AM
Phillip must be sleeping in today.

Mrleft8
12-01-2012, 09:22 AM
First it was loud music, and a hand gun...... Now it's a shotgun? Pretty hard to toss a shotgun down a storm drain in a well lit parking lot w/o being seen, but I guess it could happen...... In Florida......

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 09:30 AM
there's not much info yet... either side could hold the truth... But on a separate note, the old story of policemen claiming they 'feared for their life' or ' he made a furtive move' should apply to all people... what that should mean is not that some guy should be able to shoot someone while he is panicked but that policemen should not have that same excuse extended to them... but that is a separate topic

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 09:32 AM
Phillip must be sleeping in today.

yes... I was up half the night so I tried to sleep in a bit... it'd didn't work very well, but I was trying

hanleyclifford
12-01-2012, 09:33 AM
I sense another Bilge Trial making up; Oh goody!

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 09:35 AM
I sense another Bilge Trial making up; Oh goody!

we love making life and death decisions from the safety of the bilge

Concordia...41
12-01-2012, 09:46 AM
They guy is grasping at straws and/or his attorney is tossing stuff out to see what the wolf pack ... er I mean press... will bite.

The kids were local boys, just came from the mall. No weapons. Nothing that looked like a weapon. Zero zilch nada.

Brightly lit gas station. Tons of witnesses and possible security footage.

As the shooter just came from his son's wedding, it's likely alcohol was involved.

Did you see the footage of the plane taking off with the young man's remains? It said on the news his dad had worked for Delta for years. There were two fire trucks creating a water arch, which the plane taxied through. The sun made a beautiful rainbow. I've never seen that before. First class.

Soundbounder
12-01-2012, 09:46 AM
First it was loud music, and a hand gun...... Now it's a shotgun? Pretty hard to toss a shotgun down a storm drain in a well lit parking lot w/o being seen, but I guess it could happen...... In Florida......Loud music, handgun, shotgun, hooded sweatshirt
According to Fox News any of these items would justify shooting them

hanleyclifford
12-01-2012, 09:47 AM
we love making life and death decisions from the safety of the bilge Did we get Zimmerman fried yet?

McMike
12-01-2012, 10:22 AM
we love making life and death decisions from the safety of the bilge

I'd rather die than shoot an innocent person. Most people shouldn't have guns.

John Smith
12-01-2012, 11:04 AM
He needed his gun for protection. Now he needs a way to prove he was protecting himself.

Waddie
12-01-2012, 01:04 PM
Another gun thread - OH Boy !!!!!

Let's get him - but do it fast before we're hindered by all the facts !!!! We could beat the media to it this time !!!!

regards,
Waddie

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 01:23 PM
if the guy simply shot the kid(s) then I would like to know why... if he felt threatened (seems likely he did whether there was a shot gun or not or he was just stupid and murderous) then I would like it discussed for the benefit of all people.

Waddie
12-01-2012, 01:31 PM
if the guy simply shot the kid(s) then I would like to know why... if he felt threatened (seems likely he did whether there was a shot gun or not or he was just stupid and murderous) then I would like it discussed for the benefit of all people.

Phillip, obviously the guy was out for a little sport hunting while in town for his son's wedding. A common story. Fathers act this way all the time. And better yet if the "prey" are totally innocent seventeen years olds on their way to choir practice. It all fits. Let's not cloud our judgement by waiting for the actual trial in court, where the facts might come out....

regards,
Waddie

Chris Coose
12-01-2012, 01:48 PM
Guns always make killings just a bit more fun.

Waddie
12-01-2012, 02:11 PM
Guns always make killings just a bit more fun.

Not necessarily.... my wife seems to enjoy inflicting a slow death...... :) :( :)

regards,
Waddie

skuthorp
12-01-2012, 02:42 PM
A slow death is what w all get Waddie, sometimes it can take the whole of our lives.
As for the thread, very sad, sounds like someone panicked, but as you said, let's wait for some facts.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-01-2012, 04:23 PM
if the guy simply shot the kid(s) then I would like to know why... if he felt threatened (seems likely he did whether there was a shot gun or not or he was just stupid and murderous) then I would like it discussed for the benefit of all people.


Threatened how? Spoken to rudely? flipped the bird?

Oh well, it just one young person. Lots more shootings left in the year for the USA

B_B
12-01-2012, 04:31 PM
New to this thread: be willing to bet though that the kid was black and the shooter, uhh, wasn't...

B_B
12-01-2012, 04:33 PM
Yup. I wuz right.

If this shooting happened at a gas station, shouldn't there be surveillance video coming out the wazoo?

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 04:41 PM
Threatened how? Spoken to rudely? flipped the bird?

Oh well, it just one young person. Lots more shootings left in the year for the USA

it doesn't need to make sense... I want to know what the shooter was thinking is all

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-01-2012, 05:25 PM
He was thinking "Oops, I'm drunk, and I don't like the look of that darkie kid"

I really wish that everyone around this guy had been armed, and then everyone would be dead, and all would be well.

hanleyclifford
12-01-2012, 05:32 PM
I'd rather die than shoot an innocent person. Most people shouldn't have guns. How about knives and bows and arrows and crossbows and....

hanleyclifford
12-01-2012, 05:37 PM
Guns always make killings just a bit more fun. Oh man of limited and myopic experience, have you ever tried using anything else?:)

Peerie Maa
12-01-2012, 05:53 PM
How about knives and bows and arrows and crossbows and....

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?156210-another-shooting-the-helladays-are-here

McMike
12-01-2012, 07:13 PM
How about knives and bows and arrows and crossbows and....

They generally don't have the capacity to kill many people all at once and their wounds are a little easier to treat as wounds go due to the missing and destructive shockwave that a bullet produces. Knives and bows don't generally misfire with horrible and finite outcomes and it's a lot harder to conceal a crossbow or get off more than two shots before someone mashes your teeth in. Guns are easy; our population is too immature to handle them.

wardd
12-01-2012, 07:21 PM
They guy is grasping at straws and/or his attorney is tossing stuff out to see what the wolf pack ... er I mean press... will bite.

The kids were local boys, just came from the mall. No weapons. Nothing that looked like a weapon. Zero zilch nada.

Brightly lit gas station. Tons of witnesses and possible security footage.

As the shooter just came from his son's wedding, it's likely alcohol was involved.

Did you see the footage of the plane taking off with the young man's remains? It said on the news his dad had worked for Delta for years. There were two fire trucks creating a water arch, which the plane taxied through. The sun made a beautiful rainbow. I've never seen that before. First class.

does the law say you have to be sober to fear for your life?

drunks have just as much right to stand their ground as the sober

wardd
12-01-2012, 07:24 PM
Guns always make killings just a bit more fun.

and easier and neater than a knife

Waddie
12-01-2012, 07:33 PM
does the law say you have to be sober to fear for your life?

drunks have just as much right to stand their ground as the sober

Now that's funny !!!!!! :) But can they (stand their ground)?

regards,
Waddie

hokiefan
12-01-2012, 07:42 PM
does the law say you have to be sober to fear for your life?

drunks have just as much right to stand their ground as the sober

But they have a tougher road to show they used good judgment. And that would be the key were I on the jury. I don't know what the law says on that, but without good judgement it is easy to see negligence at minimum. My $0.02

At the end of the day, a jury will decide this case. As it should.

Bobby

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 09:00 PM
does the law say you have to be sober to fear for your life?

drunks have just as much right to stand their ground as the sober

I will not be swayed by your leanings

Mrleft8
12-01-2012, 09:09 PM
I will not be swayed by your leanings

But will you lean towards his swayings?..

You're very predictable, Phillip.... If a cop cuffs a little old lady you scream police brutality. If a non-cop person shoots another non-cop person, for whatever reason, you scream self-protection, or some other nonsense...... Do you take these stances just to listen to yourself argue?

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 09:14 PM
But will you lean towards his swayings?..

You're very predictable, Phillip.... If a cop cuffs a little old lady you scream police brutality. If a non-cop person shoots another non-cop person, for whatever reason, you scream self-protection, or some other nonsense...... Do you take these stances just to listen to yourself argue?

Doug... look again... I have not defended him or the kids... I'm waiting for more information (and in that regard, yes, I am predictable)

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 09:17 PM
I will not be swayed by your leanings


well, I should have predicted this... someone has already interpreted my humor as something entirely not humorous

he was drunk (maybe) get it? swayings? leanings?

Soundbounder
12-01-2012, 09:49 PM
Article published November 28:

Mr. Dunn, a gun collector who has a pilot’s license, was in Jacksonville for his son’s wedding last weekend. He had one drink at the reception and a glass of Champagne before he left, his lawyer said. When he and Ms. Rouer stopped at the convenience store for wine to take to the hotel, the teenagers in the car next to him were blasting music. He asked them to turn it down. At first they did, Ms. Lemonidis said. But then they turned the volume back up and began cursing him.

When he saw the shotgun and heard the threat, Mr. Dunn reached into his glove compartment, unholstered his Taurus 9-millimeter gun and fired two rounds into the back seat, and then two more. As the car with the teenagers pulled out, he feared they would try to shoot back, so he fired four more shots, his lawyer said.

He returned to the hotel, believing no one had been hurt. But the next morning, after Ms. Rouer saw on the news that a teenager had been killed, Mr. Dunn decided to turn himself in, but in Satellite Beach, about 170 miles away, where his neighbor has ties to law enforcement, Ms. Lemonidis said. Soon after, he went to the neighbor’s home, and the police, already on their way, arrived to arrest him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/29/us/florida-shooting-stirs-echoes-of-trayvon-martin-case.html

LeeG
12-01-2012, 10:01 PM
Loud music. If only those kids were armed there could have been more dead people.

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 10:02 PM
so far, it sounds like he really didn't think things through... even if armed, I would think it easier to simply avoid the shotgun by lateral movement... shooting at them is something I would not likely do but it is possible, I suppose... this guy is likely cooked, goose wise...

mothers, teach your sons not to be rude boys... being in the right is a no win if they are dead-right

on the other hand... the loud music would only have lasted until I was on my way so I would have ignored it

wardd
12-01-2012, 10:05 PM
of course he thought they were armed, after all he was

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 10:09 PM
of course he thought they were armed, after all he was

that is apparently what he said... he may have been right, remembering that he was actually there and we were not... any dark 'stick' may have looked like a gun barrel... that wouldn't have made them 'armed' but it would be pushing the limits just like most teen boys tend to do... still waiting for conclusive info

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-01-2012, 11:02 PM
Hasn't there been a fresh shooting yet? Gosh, it's been hours.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-01-2012, 11:04 PM
so far, it sounds like he really didn't think things through... even if armed, I would think it easier to simply avoid the shotgun by lateral movement... shooting at them is something I would not likely do but it is possible, I suppose... this guy is likely cooked, goose wise...


Phillip, these were good kids, and they were unarmed. NO GUN. HE MURDERED THE KID

Phillip Allen
12-02-2012, 02:56 AM
Phillip, these were good kids, and they were unarmed. NO GUN. HE MURDERED THE KID

what are you angy about... I haven't defended the shooter... do you need for me to?

Curtism
12-02-2012, 04:30 AM
Phillip is right about Mr. Dunn's goose being cooked. He's going to have a rough row explaining why, if he thought he was acting within his legal right, he failed to call the authorities and instead fled the scene. And in spite of whatever justifications he may have had, that he fled even further upon finding out someone died in the altercation doesn't look good.

His attorney's story gets better each time she tells it to the press.

An interesting note on the timing of this; Shortly after the Trayvon Martin shooting last year, in response to the public outcry, our Tparty governor hand selected a commission to do a study of the legality of the language in the Stand Your Ground law. The panel was made up entirely of supporters of the law and, as I recall, one or two of the members lacked adequate experience in legal matters so there were questions about their qualifications from early on. A week or so prior to this latest shooting in Jacksonville the panel had concluded it's finding that, other than a couple of (unspecified at the time) tweaks to the wording, the law was basically sound. Big surprise there, eh?

Concordia...41
12-02-2012, 11:10 AM
drunks have just as much right to stand their ground as the sober

I agree they do, but as someone who, with a few drinks in me, got in the face of a punk kid that was being shi-y to a homeless guy outside of a similar convenience store, I know you make WAY WORSE decisions when under the influence. :eek::eek:

As far as the attorney saying he had one drink and a glass of champaign, she's simultaneously making a name for herself and defending the case in the court of public opinion. Neither of which I believe are appropriate.

YMMV

-M

wardd
12-02-2012, 11:34 AM
let me modify that

drunks have every right to stand their perceived ground

Soundbounder
12-04-2012, 06:59 AM
As far as the attorney saying he had one drink and a glass of champaign, she's simultaneously making a name for herself and defending the case in the court of public opinion. Neither of which I believe are appropriate.

YMMV

-M
Who knows...but I suspect there was more alcohol involved than 2 drinks.
Especially since the wife was in the store buying more wine at the time of the shooting.

hanleyclifford
12-04-2012, 08:20 AM
Lookee here: http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/12/03/zimmerman-small.jpg

McMike
12-04-2012, 05:25 PM
Lookee here: http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/12/03/zimmerman-small.jpg

So what you're saying is that guns is for punks who can't stand to lose a fight? That abouts fits all you guys . . . boys.

Phillip Allen
12-04-2012, 05:27 PM
Lookee here: http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim/2012/12/03/zimmerman-small.jpg

how come that pic is only just now showing up? (human nature?)

Bram V
12-04-2012, 05:39 PM
So, he shot into the car twice and when they drove away (I know I would) he shot at them again for good measure? The problem if this guy walks free, is that he'd do it again in a heartbeat, he truly seems to believe he has done nothing wrong. If a guy has a good reason to kill someone, it'll be murder of the first degree and he gets a heavy sentence. Odds are, he would not have the same reasons for anyone else.
If someone shoots randomly where you should never fire a shot, it'll be manslaughter, he may have learned not to do that, he may not. He'll get a lighter sentence than the former
If someone shoots in this kind of perceived self defense, he thinks he only misinterpreted. Next time, it could be my nephew that wanted to have his friends hear a new album he just bought. He'll get a lighter sentence than the former

Concordia...41
12-04-2012, 05:42 PM
how come that pic is only just now showing up? (human nature?)

They said it was published before - only in black and white.

What makes us so quick to throw blame? Human nature... ;)

Soundbounder
12-04-2012, 05:43 PM
So Zimmerman got punched in the nose as he stalked and harassed an unarmed, innocent teenager who was minding his own business.

That justifies the shooting?

Phillip Allen
12-04-2012, 05:45 PM
They said it was published before - only in black and white.

What makes us so quick to throw blame? Human nature... ;)

first time I've seen it

Concordia...41
12-04-2012, 05:47 PM
So, he shot into the car twice and when they drove away (I know I would) he shot at them again for good measure? The problem if this guy walks free, is that he'd do it again in a heartbeat, he truly seems to believe he has done nothing wrong. If a guy has a good reason to kill someone, it'll be murder of the first degree and he gets a heavy sentence. Odds are, he would not have the same reasons for anyone else.
If someone shoots randomly where you should never fire a shot, it'll be manslaughter, he may have learned not to do that, he may not. He'll get a lighter sentence than the former
If someone shoots in this kind of perceived self defense, he thinks he only misinterpreted. Next time, it could be my nephew that wanted to have his friends hear a new album he just bought. He'll get a lighter sentence than the former

I don't see him getting away with it. He may get bond (I'd give it a 50/50 chance), but he'll be convicted or take a plea. Right now, he's charged with second degree murder.

The defination of second degree murder from a Florida attorney's website - I haven't had a chance to check the statute:


Definition of Second Degree Murder

The crime of Second Degree Murder occurs when a person commits either:


Murder with a Depraved Mind (http://forum.woodenboat.com/#Depraved-Mind) or
Accomplice Felony Murder (http://forum.woodenboat.com/#Felony)

Murder with a Depraved Mind

Murder with a Depraved Mind occurs when a person is killed, without any premeditated design, by an act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind showing no regard for human life.
The primary distinction between Premeditated First Degree Murder and Second Degree Murder with a Depraved Mind is that First Degree Murder (http://forum.woodenboat.com/first-degree-murder.html) requires a specific and premeditated intent to kill.

Basic difference between first and second degree murder = premediation / intent. The state attorney's office also run by Ann Corey, who was appointed by the Governor as a special prosecutor in the Zimmerman matter BTW, has stated that they did not feel he went there with intent. Hence the second degree charge.

Penalty =


Penalties for Second Degree Murder

The crime of Second Degree Murder is classified as a First Degree Felony and is assigned a Level 10 offense severity ranking under Florida's Criminal Punishment Code (http://forum.woodenboat.com/criminal/penalties/criminal-punishment-code.html).
If convicted of Second Degree Murder, a judge is required to impose a minimum prison sentence of 16 years in prison and can impose any additional combination of the following penalties:


Up to Life in prison.
Up to Life on probation.
Up to $10,000 in fines.




Then there's Florida's 10-20-Life law:


10/20/Life

Under Florida's 10-20-Life law, a person who uses a Firearm to commit Second Degree Murder must be sentenced to a minimum-mandatory prison sentence of 25 years.

So essentially a few moments of stupid anger have cost a young man's life as well as the shooter's, who is now facing 25-life. I don't remember his age, but I'd say he's in his 50's. The mandatory minimums here are just that. The judge has no discretion. The guy's only hope is that the state attorney can be convinced to drop the charge to manslaughter, and I don't have time to look up the penalties for that, but I think it would take him out of 25-year mandatory minimum.

wardd
12-04-2012, 05:50 PM
eventually there won't be anybody left alive in florida that doesn't carry

Concordia...41
12-04-2012, 05:54 PM
eventually there won't be anybody left alive in florida that doesn't carry

Oh yes there will be. I haven't carried since I left Alabama :D

wardd
12-04-2012, 06:01 PM
Oh yes there will be. I haven't carried since I left Alabama :D

bullet proof vest?

S/V Laura Ellen
12-04-2012, 06:01 PM
Could someone please remind me to turn off the car stereo when I cross the Florida border in February.

hanleyclifford
12-04-2012, 07:42 PM
how come that pic is only just now showing up? (human nature?) Sorry, Zimmerman, but you have been convicted in the Righteous Bilge and there is no appeal! Next case.

B_B
12-04-2012, 07:56 PM
Sorry, Zimmerman, but you have been convicted in the Righteous Bilge and there is no appeal! Next case.
You, and your ilk, are twits. Nit-twits. I hope Zimmerman fries. I hope everyone who defends him fries too.

Phillip Allen
12-04-2012, 07:58 PM
You, and your ilk, are twits. Nit-twits. I hope Zimmerman fries. I hope everyone who defends him fries too.

get a rope!

hanleyclifford
12-04-2012, 08:06 PM
You, and your ilk, are twits. Nit-twits. I hope Zimmerman fries. I hope everyone who defends him fries too. Nit twit...has a nice ring to it. Blue star to the anonymous interneter...

Phillip Allen
12-04-2012, 08:08 PM
Nit twit...has a nice ring to it. Blue star to the anonymous interneter...

fer gosh sakes, don't set him off, he's liable to hang three or four people before he calms down (and turn the sterio down... or there will be a sterio hanging!)

B_B
12-04-2012, 08:10 PM
Nit twit...has a nice ring to it. Blue star to the anonymous interneter...Give me a feaking break. That kid wasn't bothering anyone. He was where he had a right to be. The fact some twit thought it ok to harass him earned that twit a punch in the nose. Sadly the kid wasn't armed. 'Cause he stood his ground. Zimmerman, and you, and Phillip, and all other defender's of a gun culture, of a 'self-defense', culture ought to be ashamed.

But you don't have the capacity to see beyond your self-delusions.

B_B
12-04-2012, 08:11 PM
fer gosh sakes, don't set him off, he's liable to hang three or four people before he calms down (and turn the sterio down... or there will be a sterio hanging!)
You're in college now. Spell like it.

Phillip Allen
12-04-2012, 08:11 PM
that's pretty amazing, BB... is your moniker to do with your brain size?

B_B
12-04-2012, 08:24 PM
that's pretty amazing, BB... is your moniker to do with your brain size?
No, it has to do with some twit who accessed my wife's info and plastered it on the WBF.

But your posts have to do have to do with yours. Not much to offer, eh?

Phillip Allen
12-04-2012, 08:35 PM
No, it has to do with some twit who accessed my wife's info and plastered it on the WBF.

But your posts have to do have to do with yours. Not much to offer, eh?

sorry about your internet problems... and I offer the opportunity to talk to me on a level 'playing field'. Some don't like that for their own reasons