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Rum_Pirate
11-28-2012, 02:27 PM
I find this incredibly mind boggling.



By ALYSSA NEWCOMB (http://abcnews.go.com/author/alyssa_newcomb) (@alyssanewcomb (http://twitter.com/alyssanewcomb))
Nov. 27, 2012




The death of a 407-pound woman after being denied boarding (http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/fat-fly-passenger-sues-southwest-airlines-discriminatory-actions/story?id=16271932#.ULPunuTAdxA)on three flights was "preventable," according to an attorney for the woman's husband, who plans to pursue legal action against three airlines.
Vilma Soltesz, 56, died of kidney failure on Oct. 24 in Hungary, where she and her husband, Janos Soltesz, took an annual vacation to a home they owned in their native country, said Soltesz' attorney, Holly Ostrov-Ronai.
Soltesz, who had health problems, had been trying to get back to the United States, where she could see her doctors, Ostrov-Ronai said.
The couple flew from New York City to Budapest by way of Amsterdam on KLM Royal Dutch Airlines. Soltesz, who had one leg, got on the flight with the help of an airlift, and used a seatbelt extender when seated, Ostrov-Ronai said, adding that the couple had "no issues at all."
"KLM asked them when they would be flying home so that they could make proper arrangements," Ostrov-Ronai wrote in an email to ABCNews.com.
When the couple went to the airport on Oct. 15 to board a KLM night flight home to New York, they were able to board. However, Ostrov-Ronai said the captain asked Vilma Soltesz to disembark because she could not be secured in her seat due to an issue with a seat back.
"There was simply no legitimate reason in this instance for denying her boarding or forcing her to disembark," Ostrov-Ronai said. "Their failure to make simple accommodations, that had been made prior, led to Vilma's death. This is not best efforts in any regard."
http://a.abcnews.com/images/Nightline/abc_ntl_fees_120503_wl.jpg (http://abcnews.go.com/International/husband-obese-woman-blames-airlines-death-european-vacation/story?id=17812883)
Airline Fees: Weigh More, Pay More? Watch Video (http://abcnews.go.com/International/husband-obese-woman-blames-airlines-death-european-vacation/story?id=17812883)


http://a.abcnews.com/images/Nightline/abc_ntl_airport_111227_wl.jpg (http://abcnews.go.com/International/husband-obese-woman-blames-airlines-death-european-vacation/story?id=17812883)
Airport Luggage Lost and FoundWatch Video (http://abcnews.go.com/International/husband-obese-woman-blames-airlines-death-european-vacation/story?id=17812883)


http://a.abcnews.com/images/WNT/abc_wn_plane_111020_wl.jpg (http://abcnews.go.com/International/husband-obese-woman-blames-airlines-death-european-vacation/story?id=17812883)
Plane Tickets Becoming More Expensive Watch Video (http://abcnews.go.com/International/husband-obese-woman-blames-airlines-death-european-vacation/story?id=17812883)


In a statement, KLM said "every effort" was made to help Soltesz.
The couple waited at the airport for five hours while the airline made calls to find an alternative to accommodate Vilma Soltesz.
They were advised to drive to Prague, where they could catch a "bigger plane" operated by Delta Airlines. When they arrived, Ostrov-Ronai said, the couple was told that Delta only had a plastic wheelchair that could not handle Vilma's weight and that there was no sky lift available to get her onto the plane.
Delta spokesman Russel Cason offered the airline's "sincere condolences" for the passing of Vilma Soltesz.
"Despite a determined good-faith effort by Delta in Prague, we were also physically unable to board her on our aircraft on Oct. 16. For this reason there was never an issue with the use of seat belt extenders," he said.
The couple drove back to their home in Hungary and made another effort, this time through Lufthansa, to get back to the United States. When they boarded, they were forced to disembark by the captain, Ostrov-Ronai said, because Vilma was unable to fasten her seatbelt properly.
The airline said it worked with local partners, the fire brigade and technical experts to accommodate Soltesz, but to no avail.
"After several time-consuming attempts it was decided that for the safety of this passenger and the over 140 fellow passengers, Lufthansa had to deny transportation of the passenger," said a statement issued by the airline. "In order to avoid further delays which would have resulted in missed connections and severe inconvenience for other customers on board, this decision was unavoidable."
Two days later, Vilma Soltesz died.
"They passed these people around from airline to airline and treated them with no dignity whatsoever, simply because they didn't want to deal with the situation," Ostrov-Ronai said.
She said Janos Soltesz plans to pursue a lawsuit against the three airlines that denied his wife passage home, where she desperately needed medical treatment.
"Janos is heartbroken," Ostrov-Ronai said. "The only thing that keeps him going day to day is that he wants justice for what was done to Vilma and to try to make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else in the future."

Paul Pless
11-28-2012, 02:33 PM
I find this incredibly mind boggling.Me too, especially since its been beaten into us how much better health care is in Europe than it is the U.S.;):d

Peerie Maa
11-28-2012, 02:45 PM
Me too, especially since its been beaten into us how much better health care is in Europe than it is the U.S.;):d

Yep, I was wondering why she did not seek medical help where she was.

Kaa
11-28-2012, 02:49 PM
It's a simple example of the deep-pockets legal theory.

Kaa

Peerie Maa
11-28-2012, 02:54 PM
It's a simple example of the deep-pockets legal theory.

Kaa

Yep, I believe that airline tickets are more "get out clause" than "promise of a seat" so the widower will loose more than a wife. Dumb husband - greedy lawyer (unless pro bono)

Peach
11-28-2012, 03:06 PM
Air freight rates factor weight into the cost. Your freight weighs more, you pay more.

Air passenger rates should also be adjusted for the weight of the passenger. It's unreasonable that the air fare is the same whether the passenger weighs 350 pound or 150 pounds, and the 175 pound passenger pays an extra fee to check a 25 pound bag while the 350 pound tubbo gets his 200 pounds of lard shipped for free.

I'd be very happy if all the commercial airlines put a reasonable weight restriction on all passengers. 200 pounds would be a good number. You weigh over 200, you don't fly commercial.

BTW, that lady didn't die because she wasn't allowed to fly. She died because she ate herself to death.

Kaa
11-28-2012, 03:12 PM
I'd be very happy if all the commercial airlines put a reasonable weight restriction on all passengers. 200 pounds would be a good number. You weigh over 200, you don't fly commercial.

LOL

Look at this guy. Weights over 200 lbs, clearly an unhealthy tub of lard, why in the world should anyone allow him onto a plane...

http://www.vanishingtattoo.com/tattoo/images/celeb-jordan_michael/jordan_large/jordan_001.jpg

Kaa

Paul Pless
11-28-2012, 03:16 PM
even before i got fat dumb and lazy i weighed more than 200 pounds. . .

Bob Adams
11-28-2012, 03:22 PM
I'd be very happy if all the commercial airlines put a reasonable weight restriction on all passengers. 200 pounds would be a good number. You weigh over 200, you don't fly commercial.

BTW, that lady didn't die because she wasn't allowed to fly. She died because she ate herself to death.

So someone like our beloved Paladin, or me for that matter couldn't fly. Aren't you a ball of compassion.

Paul Pless
11-28-2012, 03:25 PM
Aren't you a ball of compassion.I bet he's just scrawny.:d

Bob Adams
11-28-2012, 03:27 PM
I bet he's just scrawny.:d

Yur basic 98 pound weakling!

Peach
11-28-2012, 03:30 PM
I had an idea that 200 pound number would generate some feedback. So what number would you suggest as a limit?

Paul Pless
11-28-2012, 03:31 PM
I had an idea that 200 pound number would generate some feedback. So what number would you suggest as a limit?I'd be good with the limit being anything above 250.:D

seanz
11-28-2012, 03:32 PM
even before i got fat dumb and lazy i weighed more than 200 pounds. . .


200 pounds is my 'goal weight'.

Waddie
11-28-2012, 03:33 PM
Why would a person with her obviously serious medical problems travel so far from her medical care ? Seems like a really unnecessary risk. Especially since they were aware of the extreme special accommodations that were required for her to fly. Did they use a forklift to get her into the seat? I sure wouldn't have wanted to be the person assigned the seat next to her. Talk about cramped. I feel bad for the lady, but poor decision making on her part.

regards,
Waddie

Peach
11-28-2012, 03:39 PM
I'd be good with the limit being anything above 250.:D

That works for me.

But I'd like to see the passenger's weight factored into the price of the ticket.

Peach
11-28-2012, 03:43 PM
I bet he's just scrawny.:d

Am now, but wasn't always.

Rum_Pirate
11-28-2012, 03:46 PM
That works for me.

But I'd like to see the passenger's weight factored into the price of the ticket.

Adult (over 16) Passenger allowed to weigh up to 240lbs. Each extra pound charged at say 1% of the basic ticket price.

How would that suit you?

Y Bar Ranch
11-28-2012, 03:46 PM
I had an idea that 200 pound number would generate some feedback. So what number would you suggest as a limit?
Use a height-weight chart. Charitably defined so only the true fatties have to pay extra.

Y Bar Ranch
11-28-2012, 03:47 PM
By the way, if I pay extra, I want extra. Leg room and width.

Peerie Maa
11-28-2012, 03:49 PM
Use a height-weight chart. Charitably defined so only the true fatties have to pay extra.

As pointed out above (sort of) height weight charts only work for desk jockeys and couch potatoes. Any athletic muscle mass and they are way off.

Waddie
11-28-2012, 03:53 PM
By the way, if I pay extra, I want extra. Leg room and width.

I agree with that idea. I want you to have that extra room, as I may be seated next to you, and want some space of my own.

regards,
Waddie

Kaa
11-28-2012, 03:57 PM
I had an idea that 200 pound number would generate some feedback. So what number would you suggest as a limit?

Why should there be a limit? If you can fit through the airplane door, just pay for however many seats you take.

Kaa

B_B
11-28-2012, 03:57 PM
By the way, if I pay extra, I want extra. Leg room and width.
If you're too big for one seat, they ought to make you pay for two. There's Peach's surcharge, and your room. Most importantly, if I sit next to you, I won't have the seat I paid for used by someone else (I once, and I'm not that small - 5'10" 200lbs - got stuck between two guys each must have weighed 275ish. I wasn't happy.).

Peach
11-28-2012, 04:00 PM
Adult (over 16) Passenger allowed to weigh up to 240lbs. Each extra pound charged at say 1% of the basic ticket price.

How would that suit you?

I've seen plenty of grade schoolers who go well over 240. Why have an age limit?

I could live with 240 as the starting point for higher fares, but I'd be happier with 200. And I'd really like to see a maximum weight allowed. Sitting next to a 350 pound passenger on a 6 hour flight is the pits.

Kaa
11-28-2012, 04:02 PM
And I'd really like to see a maximum weight allowed. Sitting next to a 350 pound passenger on a 6 hour flight is the pits.

That problem is fixed by "pay for however many seats you take", no absolute limit necessary.

Kaa

Ian McColgin
11-28-2012, 04:03 PM
The airline was able to make the accomodation for her to fly over. The failure for the return and then the passing around, shrugging off and all that was an incredible disgrace. Those airlines need a lesson.

Y Bar Ranch
11-28-2012, 04:11 PM
As pointed out above (sort of) height weight charts only work for desk jockeys and couch potatoes. Any athletic muscle mass and they are way off.
Ergo my "charitable".


If you're too big for one seat, they ought to make you pay for two. There's Peach's surcharge, and your room. Most importantly, if I sit next to you, I won't have the seat I paid for used by someone else (I once, and I'm not that small - 5'10" 200lbs - got stuck between two guys each must have weighed 275ish. I wasn't happy.).

I'm not fat, but I am tall (6'3"). Riding back from South Africa recently, in coach, for 16 hours, sucked royally.

When I went through SERE school in military training and we had to experience being locked in a box to learn about torture, the box actually was roomier than my coach seat. :(

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-28-2012, 04:16 PM
My question is more basic. Why did the husband take her in the first place? She clearly wasn't well. That, and they were going to a country where health care is not all that good.. all of the former soviet bloc countries are struggling economically.

The other issue is her weight. At what point do you decide it's a good idea to become seriously morbidly obese? It wasn't health issues that got her to this weight. There are exceptions, but they're very rare. Her health problems are mostly of her making.

I used to be an alcoholic and drug addict.... been clean for more than 20 years. It was a decision based on life and death. I chose life.

Y Bar Ranch
11-28-2012, 04:24 PM
She was a big lady

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ht_fat_fly_mi_121126_wg.jpg

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-28-2012, 04:27 PM
People that big are a medical time bomb. Their weight is killing them, it's just a question of which organ fails.

Phillip Allen
11-28-2012, 04:31 PM
Air freight rates factor weight into the cost. Your freight weighs more, you pay more.

Air passenger rates should also be adjusted for the weight of the passenger. It's unreasonable that the air fare is the same whether the passenger weighs 350 pound or 150 pounds, and the 175 pound passenger pays an extra fee to check a 25 pound bag while the 350 pound tubbo gets his 200 pounds of lard shipped for free.

I'd be very happy if all the commercial airlines put a reasonable weight restriction on all passengers. 200 pounds would be a good number. You weigh over 200, you don't fly commercial.

BTW, that lady didn't die because she wasn't allowed to fly. She died because she ate herself to death.

Tell Paul Pless he can't fly because he's too heavy... do it face to face... BTW... I weigh270

seanz
11-28-2012, 04:34 PM
Face it, her husband has a good case against KLM at least The airline accepted her as a passenger in the US, and then failed to get her home.

seanz
11-28-2012, 04:36 PM
People that big are a medical time bomb. Their weight is killing them, it's just a question of which organ fails.

Who's woken up all 'judgey' today, eh? She had one leg and was morbidly obese plus who knows what else.....now she's dead.....git 'er!

Phillip Allen
11-28-2012, 04:40 PM
Who's woken up all 'judgey' today, eh? She had one leg and was morbidly obese plus who knows what else.....now she's dead.....git 'er!

she was prolly Republican... Peter has problems with folks that think outside HIS box

Ian McColgin
11-28-2012, 04:51 PM
Dang, Phillip, why must you bring spurious political bull into this? There's a great deal of judgementalism against such seriously obese people as it is, as witnessed by the rather silly remarks about one person's weight on an intercontenental jet liner, without trying to pretend that an apparant example of such judgementalism is political.

Y Bar Ranch
11-28-2012, 04:52 PM
I wonder if her organs weren't failing and she bloated up further. She died of kidney failure, which means she likely wasn't getting rid of fluids.

Sad story

Waddie
11-28-2012, 04:54 PM
Perhaps on the American side the airline had the equipment on hand and time to prepare. But on the European end it may have been a more rushed request and they were scrambling to put it together. Looks to me like she was in a hurry to get back and she was failing quickly. Unfortunate all around.

My son-in-law is an airline pilot, and at one time my daughter was a flight attendant (that's how they met). The crap the flight crews have to put up with from passengers, and the FAA flight rules they have to contend with are amazing. That "seat back" problem mentioned was probably regulation related.

regards,
Waddie

Phillip Allen
11-28-2012, 04:54 PM
Dang, Phillip, why must you bring spurious political bull into this? There's a great deal of judgementalism against such seriously obese people as it is, as witnessed by the rather silly remarks about one person's weight on an intercontenental jet liner, without trying to pretend that an apparant example of such judgementalism is political.

keep your shirt on, Ian

I was just helping seanz out... Peter is a well known political troll and he is even Canadian

seanz
11-28-2012, 04:59 PM
keep your shirt on, Ian

I was just helping seanz out... Peter is a well known political troll and he is even Canadian

Thanks Phillip. I was struggling, glad you chipped in.

:D

Paul Pless
11-28-2012, 05:08 PM
Tell Paul Pless he can't fly because he's too heavy... do it face to face... Fortunately for me I guess, most people don't realize that I am a pacifist, and am actually non-confrontational to a fault.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-28-2012, 05:45 PM
Who's woken up all 'judgey' today, eh? She had one leg and was morbidly obese plus who knows what else.....now she's dead.....git 'er!


I certainly feel for her family. The issue is that people have all kinds of genetic ailments, cancers, diabetes, etc..... they have to deal with them with no choice in the matter. Weight can be controlled by diet and exercise.

beernd
11-28-2012, 05:50 PM
I just wonder what airplane company flew her out to Hungary.
There is sure a bunch of information that I am missing. :confused:

B_B
11-28-2012, 05:56 PM
I just wonder what airplane company flew her out to Hungary.
There is sure a bunch of information that I am missing. :confused:
KLM.

Bobcat
11-28-2012, 06:11 PM
Air freight rates factor weight into the cost. Your freight weighs more, you pay more.

Air passenger rates should also be adjusted for the weight of the passenger. It's unreasonable that the air fare is the same whether the passenger weighs 350 pound or 150 pounds, and the 175 pound passenger pays an extra fee to check a 25 pound bag while the 350 pound tubbo gets his 200 pounds of lard shipped for free.

I'd be very happy if all the commercial airlines put a reasonable weight restriction on all passengers. 200 pounds would be a good number. You weigh over 200, you don't fly commercial.

BTW, that lady didn't die because she wasn't allowed to fly. She died because she ate herself to death.

You must be a little person. 200 ain't that much

LeeG
11-28-2012, 06:14 PM
Sad all around.

Ron Williamson
11-28-2012, 06:53 PM
My question is more basic. Why did the husband take her in the first place? She clearly wasn't well. That, and they were going to a country where health care is not all that good.. all of the former soviet bloc countries are struggling economically.

The other issue is her weight. At what point do you decide it's a good idea to become seriously morbidly obese? It wasn't health issues that got her to this weight. There are exceptions, but they're very rare. Her health problems are mostly of her making.





I used to be an alcoholic and drug addict.... been clean for more than 20 years. It was a decision based on life and death. I chose life.

Perhaps,but lots of drug and alcohol problems can be controlled if you abstain and avoid bad situations.
It isn't possible with food.
R

Ian McColgin
11-28-2012, 07:11 PM
People don't "decide" to become morbidly obese. There are diverse causes and as many solutions, some of which are in part behavioral therapies of varying success. Morbid obesity is like many other physical/mental illnesses where treatments are not even remotely obvious but the subject's behavior, including appearance, is often repulsive and easy to be judgemental about.

While seriously obese, Mrs Soltesz did not require anything that should not be readily available at all airports - a working lift and seat belt extensions. From the account (that a seat belt extension did the trick) we know that she fit into the seat. Obviously the family had worked out with her physicians a plan for going to Hungary. Had there been no problems with the return flight she would have had a chance to at least die of kidney failure at home.

I don't see why people can't make decisions like this for a little bit of homeland nostalgia and comfort. I do see why people make snarking judgements about a person in their mind so disgusting to behold.

Rich Jones
11-28-2012, 07:12 PM
You must be a little person. 200 ain't that much


My wife thinks 200 is HUGE!!! I'm 5'10" and 190lbs and she thinks I'm overweight. She's constantly giving me the evil eye very time I try to sneak a snack. I suppose 175 would be ideal for me but what a pain in the ass getting there.
BTW, my wife weights 112 soaking wet... And with no sweet tooth, she has no problem staying there. Her biggest imperfection is her perfection!!

Chris Woodward
11-28-2012, 07:14 PM
I certainly feel for her family. The issue is that people have all kinds of genetic ailments, cancers, diabetes, etc..... they have to deal with them with no choice in the matter. Weight can be controlled by diet and exercise.
Yeah I can lose weight. Then I'd be thin. But you'd still be stupid

Plumbtex
11-28-2012, 08:36 PM
IIRC when I was studying aviation maint. 200lbs was the average used for weight and balance calculations

Y Bar Ranch
11-28-2012, 08:55 PM
People don't "decide" to become morbidly obese.
Every excess pound on her came through her mouth, where it was put by her hand.

Chris Woodward
11-28-2012, 09:17 PM
Every excess pound on her came through her mouth, where it was put by her hand.
You have no idea who this lady was. You have no idea what her eating habits were. You have no idea how many calories she consumed or how many she expended. All you know is what she looked like, if indeed that really was a picture of her. Your santimonious twaddle is just the bloviateing of an over opinated under educated bigot.

George Jung
11-28-2012, 09:25 PM
Gosh, Chris - how do you really feel about this? :p

Some folks have more trouble controlling their weight, than do others. Nothing like 'experiencing' this first hand to appreciate the difficulty. Yeah, she gained the weight, likely from excess food intake. Welcome to America! Land of plenty (of processed foods), sedentary lifestyles. Kinda sneaks up on ya - and lots of factors as to why folks don't control their eating, etc. Me, I've got strong will power. I can resist anything but temptation - so 'we' (my more disciplined wife and I) address this by - not buying junk food. Outta sight, out of mind. In the kitchen - it 'calls' to me. And once the weight piles on, and your knees are shot from the excess weight - exercise is a lot tougher. Painted into a corner...

purri
11-28-2012, 09:25 PM
^CW, even lymphoedema wouldn't hold water with that excuse...

B_B
11-28-2012, 09:37 PM
You have no idea who this lady was. You have no idea what her eating habits were. You have no idea how many calories she consumed or how many she expended. All you know is what she looked like, if indeed that really was a picture of her. Your santimonious twaddle is just the bloviateing of an over opinated under educated bigot.
Don't need to know how many she took in or how many she expended - the result of the difference between the two is there: 407 lbs.


...Kinda sneaks up on ya - and lots of factors as to why folks don't control their eating, etc..
407 lbs couldn't possibly sneak up on anything.


Me, I've got strong will power. I can resist anything but temptation...
You an me both.

Chris Woodward
11-28-2012, 09:47 PM
Fat people are way more efficient with their processing of calories. Mostly they store them to be used later. Do you think that this woman took in 6000 calories a day? Even on a 2500 calorie diet she may still gain wieght. But you scrawnys that eat 4000 calories, and burn them twiching and breathing and just sitting there are the most wasteful ones on the planet. You use the same amount or more resourses carting your little pin butts around town in your 5.0 litre V-6s as she does hauling around 407lbs. She is making a much more efficient use of the resourses. She doesn't need to eat 4 times a day, but you can't go 5 hours without refilling your gobs, otherwise you get all famished and weak and out of gas

George Jung
11-28-2012, 09:49 PM
And that, folks, is how you apply spin.... lots and lots of it.

seanz
11-28-2012, 09:50 PM
407 lbs couldn't possibly sneak up on anything.

Don't go into tiger country, whatever you do........

ChaseKenyon
11-28-2012, 10:20 PM
Ergo my "charitable".



I'm not fat, but I am tall (6'3"). Riding back from South Africa recently, in coach, for 16 hours, sucked royally.

When I went through SERE school in military training and we had to experience being locked in a box to learn about torture, the box actually was roomier than my coach seat. :(




A fellow so DOD veteran I see.

As many here know from photos posted over the years I am a fairly lean athletic build 61 year old. I have a 36 in waist, a 49 chest and wear the same brand and size of jeans and such as I did when leaving the service in 1974. I am 6'2" and I weigh day to day from 240 to 256 # A 16 pound range might seem like a lot but think of it as a percentage of my "happy" 245# where I feel the healthiest. 16 # is only a 6.5% variance.

So at 250 I run a digital pro caliper test of 11.5 mm which is on the borderline of the caliper BFI charts at ~20% separating lean from ideal. At the top of an Ideal weight for my age and build on the caliper charts I would probably go as high as 250+ 32.2= 282# easy. The BFI is 26.3 % greater, so if my body weight went up by the same it would be plus 64.4 #s. So as I would proportionately have less lean muscle mass and more fat % I added only 50 % at 32.2 more pounds. I have never been able to add adipose tissue so I think I would still be fairly lean at the increased weight. So figure if I put on just 32.2 or half of the percent increase in body fat index I get up to 282 #.

I would still easily be in the Ideal Weight Zone by measured BFI at 282 pounds.

:D;)

Y Bar Ranch
11-28-2012, 10:22 PM
You have no idea who this lady was. You have no idea what her eating habits were. You have no idea how many calories she consumed or how many she expended. All you know is what she looked like, if indeed that really was a picture of her. Your santimonious twaddle is just the bloviateing of an over opinated under educated bigot.
What I wrote is exactly true, and I know it for certain. She took in too many, and did not burn enough. Them's the laws of physics.

John of Phoenix
11-28-2012, 10:37 PM
Wow, 407 and missing a leg! WOW!

Kaa
11-28-2012, 11:07 PM
Wow, 407 and missing a leg! WOW!

I bet she had diabetes and lost her leg because of that.

Kaa

Kaa
11-28-2012, 11:13 PM
Yeah, she gained the weight, likely from excess food intake.

Likely..? I can give you an ironclad guarantee about that excessive food intake :-) Pure physics, the Law of the Conservation of Energy -- these pounds of fat are just accumulated calories, all of which came from food.

Also, there is a simple, tested (and very well historically tested), environmentally correct, cheap, no-equipment-or-weird-stuff-necessary way to lose weight:


EAT LESS

Kaa

BrianW
11-29-2012, 12:55 AM
I feel sorry for her husband, but the problem was not induced by the airlines. They were lucky to get to Hungary, and their luck ran out when trying to get back.

seanz
11-29-2012, 01:26 AM
I feel sorry for her husband, but the problem was not induced by the airlines. They were lucky to get to Hungary, and their luck ran out when trying to get back.

Well, yeah, sorta, no. They shouldn't have taken her in the first place, maybe? Because, if their problem solving technique in Europe is a game of pass-the-parcel just getting it right on the out-bound journey isn't good enough.

epoxyboy
11-29-2012, 03:02 AM
I gotta say it rips my undies when I get pinged several hundred bucks for 15kg of excess baggage from China to NZ, when half the lard@rses getting on the plane have got an easy 30kg on me, just standing there. Yes, I am "scrawny":d, so I am all for weighing the passenger WITH their baggage. Pretty much every flight out of NZ apart from Aus and a few Pacific islands is long haul, and getting wedged between two fatties for 11 hours just isn't fun.

Pete

seanz
11-29-2012, 03:06 AM
I just can't believe we've ended up on opposing sides.............



:D

epoxyboy
11-29-2012, 03:37 AM
I just can't believe we've ended up on opposing sides.............



:D
I know, I just have to eat more!!! But seriously, me plus my "overweight" baggage weighs less than half the people getting on the plane, but I get penalised $$$$. If they let me take all those nasty dangerous tools on as cabin baggage, it would be OK, but I HAVE to check the tool case in. It is a blatantly anti skinny policy, which the airlines profit from. Skinny people unite - boycott the airlines and, um, you know, swim or something.

Pete

Ian McColgin
11-29-2012, 08:05 AM
Short skinny people can rejoice in the fact that the way airlines have narrowed seats and shortened the distance between seat rows leads to pain and suffering for all who are wide, long or both.

I'm barely 6' (or was up to about my 58th birthday) of average porportions, which means that my femer length is long enough that I must sit exactly upright in most air line seats, no room to let my butt come forward on the seat for a nice slouching nap, and the person ahead of me cannot lower his or her seat back unless I scrunch my legs under his seat, thus pushing out whatever might be stowed there.

I agree that when you're jammed in a space that's small enough as is, it can go way past annoying when someone settles in on your elbow spilling abdomonal fat and piggy elbows over the seat rest elbows and into one's thorax. One can feel a bit like Princess Leia stuffed in next to Jabba the Hut. But big people are not alone in their seat space imperialism. I've sat next to rather mousey small women who proceeded to nest, pushing pillows and strange objects about in ways designed to deny me even an approach to the arm rest.

You small whiners ride in comfort for the same price as others who ride in discomfort. That should be enough.

Paul Pless
11-29-2012, 08:10 AM
. . .in ways designed to deny me even an approach to the arm rest. The number one goal of any passenger attempting to get early zone boarding is to get in to the plane and get in their seat with their seat belt on and then quickly establish arm rest ownership before their seatmates arrive.

Ian McColgin
11-29-2012, 08:19 AM
Arm rest ownership. But at some point if the flight's long enough they must go to the head . . .

Paul Pless
11-29-2012, 08:32 AM
I'm a big fat dude with a large bladder. :d

John Smith
11-29-2012, 10:33 AM
So someone like our beloved Paladin, or me for that matter couldn't fly. Aren't you a ball of compassion.

Seems to me this is already covered in our anti-discrimination laws. Restaurants and other businesses all over have made themselve handicap accessible via ramps, automatic doors, and rest room changes.

Why not airlines?

Y Bar Ranch
11-29-2012, 10:36 AM
http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/bec/lowres/becn99l.jpg

Paul Pless
11-29-2012, 10:40 AM
I have yet to see some dork wearing one of these yet in person.

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01344/Jacket_01_1344368a.jpg

Tom Wilkinson
11-29-2012, 11:15 AM
Airlines have done that. Are they able to meet every single condition that may come to them, i doubt it. Im sure every ADA compliant business out there can have a situation confront them that they cannot accommodate. Is ridiculous to assume that every business could possible meet every special need. Are the rest of the passengers willing to pony up the cash it will cost to make every flight accessible to every special need. I highly doubt it.

i faced this with the last girl i dated who had a daughter with sever cerebral palsy. Flying was going to be a major problem, and I own a second home 1000 miles away so it was no small issue. And should we discuss rental cars.... Better have some very deep pockets if you want a handicapped accessible van to rent.

I sure wasn't expecting anyone to make those accommodations for me though.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-29-2012, 11:18 AM
Yeah I can lose weight. Then I'd be thin. But you'd still be stupid

Sorry, I'm not stupid, but you are entitled to your opinion. Society has done a lot of rationalization on our ever increasing girths in the last 60 years. The fact remains that there are only a few conditions that affect weight, and they are treatable. I have a doctor friend who is quite blunt about it. He said to me once "There were no obese people in the concentration camps"

Ian McColgin
11-29-2012, 11:24 AM
There's a reason why the legal standard is "reasonable accomodation."

A lift and some seatbelt extenders are not a big deal. Both are readily available. Both should be always available. And obviously both should be at hand when the airline knows in advance what will be needed and has managed to do it for the flight over.

Regardless of stupid arguments that a transcontinental airliner can't manage the weight of a few fatties, the airline did just fine with her for the flight over and is utterly without excuse for it's failure on the run back.

Phillip Allen
11-29-2012, 11:27 AM
In really shouldn't make any difference, Ian, but I wonder if these people were some of the hard to get along with folks I hear about... in-your-face sorts? It might explain why they got shunted on down the 'line' if they made themselves obnoxious... it's just a thought is all

just consider how nasty we're being to one another on this thread and translate that to 'in person' nastiness

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-29-2012, 11:29 AM
Regardless of stupid arguments that a transcontinental airliner can't manage the weight of a few fatties, the airline did just fine with her for the flight over and is utterly without excuse for it's failure on the run back.

Bottom line, that's the way the courts will look at it.

Y Bar Ranch
11-29-2012, 11:46 AM
There's a reason why the legal standard is "reasonable accomodation."

A lift and some seatbelt extenders are not a big deal. Both are readily available. Both should be always available. And obviously both should be at hand when the airline knows in advance what will be needed and has managed to do it for the flight over.

Regardless of stupid arguments that a transcontinental airliner can't manage the weight of a few fatties, the airline did just fine with her for the flight over and is utterly without excuse for it's failure on the run back.
All three? After KLM turned her down, they went to Delta and Lufthansa. Are they guilty too?

In two of the cases, the Plane's Captain made the call. The aircraft captain is responsible for the safe and expeditious execution of the flight, and of course has overall authority over the aircraft just like a ship's captain has over his craft. That's the way it must be...you really don't want the corporate wonks backseat driving the cockpit. It sets a bad precedent to overrule his judgement on what is safe or not for *all* the passengers, built up over 10,000 hrs of flight time or so.

Kaa
11-29-2012, 12:03 PM
In two of the cases, the Plane's Captain made the call. The aircraft captain is responsible for the safe and expeditious execution of the flight, and of course has overall authority over the aircraft just like a ship's captain has over his craft. That's the way it must be...you really don't want the corporate wonks backseat driving the cockpit. It sets a bad precedent to overrule his judgement on what is safe or not for *all* the passengers, built up over 10,000 hrs of flight time or so.

Oh please. It seems that the technical reason the captain kicked her off the plane was the inability to fasten a seatbelt around her girth. I don't really think this was a safety for all passengers issue. This was a "regulations say do X and that's it, period, full stop, I don't care" issue.

It's precisely the corporate lawyers (and the liability laws) backseat driving the cockpit.

Kaa

Ian McColgin
11-29-2012, 12:06 PM
Y Bar, that's the great thing about a legal system with trials. If any of the airlines have lawfully adequate excuses, those get to come out. There are many facts we don't know. For example, we don't know if Mrs Soltesz was those who "made themselves obnoxious" [#82] to such an extent that we find it just fine to deny service under a totally different excuse. All this will come out at trial.

Most of the time a suit like this is brought contingency, with the attorneys financing the whole effort and taking a major loss risk if they lose. The contingency allows plaintiffs who can't afford it to sue and makes the attorney look hard since a losing case means major loss. In addition to those theoretical goods, there are some not so theoretical bads, like the rise of the new breed of ambulence chasers.

Peerie Maa
11-29-2012, 12:25 PM
Of some relevance, KLM's terms and conditions. There are lots, but these are the relevant ones from http://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/customer_support/booking_conditions_carriage/article_6_to_10.htm:

2. Special Assistance
(a) Carriage of unaccompanied children, Passengers with Reduced Mobility, pregnant women and persons with illnesses or any other persons who require special assistance, is subject to the Carrier’s prior consent. Passengers who, when purchasing their Ticket, inform the Carrier of their disability or of any special need for assistance and who are accepted by the Carrier in full knowledge of the facts, cannot be refused boarding due to their disability or their special needs.

(b) If a Passenger requires a special meal, he/she must enquire as to the availability thereof when making the Reservation (and/or changing a Reservation) or within the time limits published by the Carrier for this purpose. Otherwise, the Carrier cannot guarantee the presence of said special meal on board the flight concerned. If certain requests cannot be met, the Carrier can not be held liable in any way on this ground.
(c) If a Passenger has a medical background, it is recommended that the Passenger consult a doctor before taking a flight, particularly a long-haul flight, and take all necessary precautions. Failure to do so shall be for the Passenger’s risk and account.
(d) The specific services referred to in this paragraph 2 are not part of the Contract of Carriage and must be considered as being Ancillary Services, as defined by Article XII below. Moreover, if a request that corresponds to the cases referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b) above is made when checking in, the Carrier shall in no way be liable if it cannot fulfill said request. In this case, the Carrier is entitled to refuse boarding to the Passenger, in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 1, sub-paragraph (m) of this article.


The couple decided to travel home earlier than planned, so it is quite likely that the highlighted text applies.
Article XII says:

4. The Carrier shall make reasonable efforts to meet Passengers’ requirements concerning the services provided on board the aircraft, in particular drinks, special meals, films, etc. However, the Carrier may not be held liable if imperatives linked to operating, security and safety do not allow it to provide suitable services, even if such services have been confirmed at the time of Reservation.

Y Bar Ranch
11-29-2012, 01:08 PM
Oh please. It seems that the technical reason the captain kicked her off the plane was the inability to fasten a seatbelt around her girth. I don't really think this was a safety for all passengers issue.
Uhh, the last thing you want in a crash or in heavy turbulence is a 400+ LB meat dirigible flying through the cabin. It absolutely was a safety issue for her and the rest of the passengers if she couldn't be restrained safely. And two seatbelt extenders linked together is not legal.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-29-2012, 01:12 PM
When we offer seat belt extenders at the dealership, the service manager has to come out, measure the person, assess the situation, then the customer and the service manager fill out a form that is sent into head office and an extender is shipped. Lots and lots of liabilities involved with extenders.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-29-2012, 01:16 PM
I must admit I am somewhat puzzled that obese people have this outrage about air line seats. Shouldn't they have the same outrage about cars, bicycles, boats, toilets, and anything else they don't fit?

The funny part of the videos and articles in the first post is that none of these people have said "Well, you know, I just wasn't facing up to my problems with food and weight, and it was a wakeup call. I have decided to seek professional help, and reduce my weight to a more healthy level."

John Smith
11-29-2012, 01:17 PM
There's a reason why the legal standard is "reasonable accomodation."

A lift and some seatbelt extenders are not a big deal. Both are readily available. Both should be always available. And obviously both should be at hand when the airline knows in advance what will be needed and has managed to do it for the flight over.

Regardless of stupid arguments that a transcontinental airliner can't manage the weight of a few fatties, the airline did just fine with her for the flight over and is utterly without excuse for it's failure on the run back.

This is the point I was going to make. If they couldn't guarantee a return flight, they shouldn't have put on on the first flight.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-29-2012, 01:20 PM
That will be the issue for sure, but does the airline have the responsibility for the return trip if health circumstances change between flights?

Surely a plane that could have accomodated this women could have been found, but it likely was a more specialized plane, costing much more for the flight.. so the real question is whether this woman was entitled to access commercial flights despite her medical conditions and her weight, or whether it was at the airlines disgression.

John Smith
11-29-2012, 01:22 PM
I must admit I am somewhat puzzled that obese people have this outrage about air line seats. Shouldn't they have the same outrage about cars, bicycles, boats, toilets, and anything else they don't fit?

The funny part of the videos and articles in the first post is that none of these people have said "Well, you know, I just wasn't facing up to my problems with food and weight, and it was a wakeup call. I have decided to seek professional help, and reduce my weight to a more healthy level."

Cars are quite adaptable to variety of people sizes. Six Flags has a bunch of roller coasters I can't fit on. Neither can the NBA players who had an event there a few years back. Boy were they pissed. I have a big, not fat, but fairly tall friend who cannot fit on many of the coasters.

As pointed out elsewhere, I'm a fairly heavy guy. I have not trouble in movie theaters.

I haven't flown in many years. My wife won't, and I don't want to go through airports.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-29-2012, 01:27 PM
Cars are adaptable, but some cars are just not gonna fit big big people. Is it the obligation of the car company to produce a car that fits a big person.

We all are guilty of getting heavier as we age, at least I am. I weight 215 , height 5'11. That's about 25 pounds heavier than I should be... but if I were another 75 pounds heavier, I couldn't even enjoy the thing I do... sailing a small boat, building and renovating.... I would be too big, and not agile enough. I'm overweight, and I know it. If I weighed 300 pounds surely I would be aware of how dangerous that was to my health?

Paul Pless
11-29-2012, 01:33 PM
Surely a plane that could have accomodated this women could have been found, but it likely was a more specialized plane, costing much more for the flight..Have you seen the planes the NFL teams use?

Rum_Pirate
11-29-2012, 01:36 PM
The number one goal of any passenger attempting to get early zone boarding is to get in to the plane and get in their seat with their seat belt on and then quickly establish arm rest ownership before their seatmates arrive.

I guarantee that if you arm rest establishers grab them and I am in the middle seat I will have both armrests within 10 minutes.

1. I start by making slightly unwell noises with a groan or two.

2. If you don't concede, I reach forward and get the 'sick bag' and open it and hold it ready and make a few more moans groans and 'ulk' noises.

3. If you still don't concede, I make a few dry heaves and 'ulk' noises into the bag.

4. The window seat chap will be pressing himself against the window and the aisle seat chap will probably be standing in the aisle. You have not been on the receiving end of this VERY realistic charade.

5. I then lean a bit towards the chap who wont relinquish the armrest between him and me, and make another prepuke "Bllllummh" noise.

6. At that point I lean back into my seat with BOTH elbows extended over the arm rests and still holding the bag at the ready while expressing "Ooer, I think I feel a little better"

If at any point you try to reclaim either of them the air sickness comes back. :d :d :d :d

B_B
11-29-2012, 01:40 PM
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/1126/nfl_cm_bwaters_600.jpg
If this ever happens to me again, I'm going to measure how much of my seat is being used by the other person and I'm going to demand a refund from the airline; they can recover from the thief if they'd like.

Paul Pless
11-29-2012, 01:42 PM
4. The window seat chap will be pressing himself against the window and the aisle seat chap will probably be standing in the aisle. You have not been on the receiving end of this VERY realistic charade.

:D iii

Peerie Maa
11-29-2012, 01:58 PM
This is the point I was going to make. If they couldn't guarantee a return flight, they shouldn't have put on on the first flight.

The outward flight was planned.

Soltesz, who had health problems, had been trying to get back to the United States, where she could see her doctors, Ostrov-Ronai said.
The return flight was short notice?
See post #87

Ian McColgin
11-29-2012, 02:13 PM
#87 lays the legal basis for the airlines' legal defenses. Given the 'last minute' nature of what was asked of the two latter lines, it may well work for them. The success or failure of KLM's defence will depend firstly on whether it was true that whatever was claimed wrong with the seat was in fact wrong and was in fact a safety issue. Secondly KLM may need to show that there was no other possible seat on the plane.

As mentioned before, this is what trials are for.

It's a newsworthy story because even with the 'facts' of the plaintiff and of the defense being both untested and incomplete, it gives us all a chance to see how our instant prejudices and/or sympathies to emerge. It will also give us a chance to see how we deal with those as more facts emerge.

In this case, the fat lady sang and the fat lady is dead but it's not at all over.

beernd
11-29-2012, 02:16 PM
Of some relevance, KLM's terms and conditions. There are lots, but these are the relevant ones from http://www.klm.com/travel/gb_en/customer_support/booking_conditions_carriage/article_6_to_10.htm:

The couple decided to travel home earlier than planned, so it is quite likely that the highlighted text applies.
Article XII says:

The first and gratest responsability lies wth the Soltesz family.
As far as I Understand, she would have died if she would have taken the scheduled flight back.
I think it is plain stupid to take such a risk, for a holiday whim.

ETA

She suffered from kidney disease and diabetes and reportedly "did not trust" Hungarian doctors.

Story gets badder and badder. :mad:

Ian McColgin
11-29-2012, 02:22 PM
"The couple decided to travel home earlier than planned" [#87]

I must have missed this. The only direct testimoney on the issue I saw was in the OP where KLM had a return date so they could prepare.

Figment
11-29-2012, 02:24 PM
The number one goal of any passenger attempting to get early zone boarding is to get in to the plane and get in their seat with their seat belt on and then quickly establish arm rest ownership before their seatmates arrive.

Man, ain't that the truth!
We just flew on southwest for the first time in a long time, and their "no assigned seating" system really brings out some unpleasant aspects of human nature!
I don't know what kind of discount you get for a ticket in the last boarding group, but man you couldn't PAY me to be in that group.


The success or failure of KLM's defence will depend firstly on whether it was true that whatever was claimed wrong with the seat was in fact wrong and was in fact a safety issue. Secondly KLM may need to show that there was no other possible seat on the plane.


I think we can safely assume that her bulk prevented her from moving past the first row of seats, particularly if a hoist was involved.

I feel for her family, but KLM is not a med-evac service, and cannot be held responsible for her death.

Kaa
11-29-2012, 02:29 PM
I don't know what kind of discount you get for a ticket in the last boarding group, but man you couldn't PAY me to be in that group.

That's why on some airlines you *can* pay to not be in that group :-)

Kaa

Peerie Maa
11-29-2012, 02:30 PM
"The couple decided to travel home earlier than planned" [#87]

I must have missed this. The only direct testimoney on the issue I saw was in the OP where KLM had a return date so they could prepare.

It is unclear whether they planned to travel on that date or were looking for an earlier flight. The OP suggests one thing, this from the BeeB suggests another:

She died of kidney failure before a suitable flight could be found, after refusing treatment from local doctors.

Delta Airlines said every effort was made to accommodate her but it had been "physically unable" to get her aboard.
But Peter Ronai, the lawyer acting for her husband, Janos, told CBS: "They [the airlines] took on the responsibility to get her to Hungary, it's their responsibility to get her back."
Mrs Soltesz needed to return to New York from her holiday home in Hungary to resume medical treatment.
She suffered from kidney disease and diabetes and reportedly "did not trust" Hungarian doctors.
But the Dutch airline KLM was unable to get her on board a flight on which she had booked two seats to accommodate her.
She was then told to drive to Prague in the Czech Republic where she would be given seats on a larger Delta Airlines flight.
But, according to Mr Ronai, she was unable to be belted into that plane and "the captain came out of the cockpit and made her get off".
Mrs Soltesz died of kidney failure before an alternative flight could be found.
In a statement Delta Airlines and KLM said they had done everything possible to assist the family.
"Our records indicate Delta staff in Prague made repeated attempts for nearly an hour to board the customer, but they were unable to get her onboard the aircraft," Delta claimed.

Ian McColgin
11-29-2012, 02:52 PM
That latter does NOT suggest a plan. It states what they were trying to do after three airlines chose not to fly them home on the day scheduled.

JBreeze
11-29-2012, 03:08 PM
Lufthansa was the 3rd airline...their explanation:

Finally, the couple tried to return to New York on a Lufthansa flight on Oct. 22. They boarded the plane, but the captain asked them to disembark because he thought Soltesz could not fasten herself in properly, Ronai said.

Lufthansa said the decision was unavoidable.

“Lufthansa, together with its local partners, fire brigade and technical experts at Budapest Airport tried its utmost to accommodate Mrs. Vilma Soltesz on board our flight from Budapest,” said spokeswoman Christina Semmel.

“After several, time consuming attempts it was decided that for the safety of this passenger and the over 140 fellow passengers, Lufthansa had to deny transportation of the passenger.”

Timeline:

Vilma Soltesz and her husband traveled to Hungary in September to spend a month in their former homeland – a trek the Bronx residents made every year to visit family.

Soltesz, 56, and her husband came on board their scheduled KLM flight to New York on Oct. 15 ...

Finally, the couple tried to return to New York on a Lufthansa flight on Oct. 22


Who knows if her weight changed much over the period of one month? Here is the experience of one traveler who had a urinary retention problem:

A nasty problem is if returning to the UK sick with urine retention. As I was in business class, occupying too much seat wasn't a problem but I NEEDED the extension seat belt.

When they did get the urine retention fixed, I got rid of 8.75 litres in 24 hours and lost 14kg in weight in 48 hours......

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-29-2012, 03:33 PM
She was only 56!?!?!?!?!?!?
Holy crap. Talk about killing yourself with food. yikes.

So she refused medical treatment locally, and wasn't physically capable of moving her body on her own.
I wonder where her family's concern was when her weight started to go out of control

ccmanuals
11-29-2012, 04:05 PM
I would imagine the autopsy will eventually reveal the real cause of death.

Reynard38
11-29-2012, 04:56 PM
A few years ago a case came to court where a obese passenger was denied boarding due to thier inability to occupy only 1 seat. Seems the flight was full and thier neighbor objected to sharing his seat with portions of passenger A.
Of course there was a lawsuit. The airline won, the court ruling that an individual should know if they are too large to fit in a single seat.
if possible we'd of course try to find an empty seat to place the big'un next to, however flights are very full these days. And passengers are bigger.

Ian McColgin
11-29-2012, 05:22 PM
Most airlines have a fully legitimate rule that if you take up more than one seat, you pay for that. Not even remotely relevant to Soltesz where KLM claimed some sort of seat back problem. We don't actually know whether that was a defective seat back or whether they thought she was too large for the seat to go upright or too large to let the seat ahead go back or what. Whatever it was had not been a problem on the flight over, was not a problem with the seat belt extender, and was not claimed to be an issue of her not fitting inside the arm rests.

It's not impossible that KLM had a legitimate excuse that will come out at trial. Meanwhile, we have an open season of inventing excuses for the airlines behavior by people who find sick obese people self-indulgent takers.

John Meachen
11-29-2012, 05:37 PM
So why does a person with health issues go to a country where they "don't trust" the doctors?Would they have been able to access health care while there?The airlines should be able to rely on the honesty of their potential passengers about a full declaration of their abilities and limitations as these can impact on the outcome of the journey of the other passengers.To extrapolate a bit,would any of us want to occupy a seat next to a corpse for a large part of a flight?

Reynard38
11-29-2012, 05:51 PM
It would seem that as KLM provided her a seat to Europe, it should have provided one for her return.
However I don't know if KLM is bound by the ADA outside of the US as they are not a US flag carrier.
Is there a European equivelant of the ADA?

Ian McColgin
11-29-2012, 05:56 PM
“So why does a person with health issues go to a country where they "don't trust" the doctors?” [#113]

“ . . . Hungary, where she and her husband, Janos Soltesz, took an annual vacation to a home they owned in their native country . . .” [OP]

So why do people ask questions to which they already have answers?

Peerie Maa
11-29-2012, 05:58 PM
So why does a person with health issues go to a country where they "don't trust" the doctors?Would they have been able to access health care while there?

They were born there and owned a house there where they holiday immersed in their culture. They took a calculated risk which turned out the worst way possible.

When it comes down to it you take a calculated risk every time you drive your car as a part of your holiday travel plan.

B_B
11-29-2012, 06:02 PM
“So why does a person with health issues go to a country where they "don't trust" the doctors?” [#113]

“ . . . Hungary, where she and her husband, Janos Soltesz, took an annual vacation to a home they owned in their native country . . .” [OP]

So why do people ask questions to which they already have answers?
You've not provided an answer. She went, annually, to a country in which, per the BBC post 106, she didn't trust the doctors - this time, at least, she went with known health issues.

Peerie Maa
11-29-2012, 06:03 PM
It would seem that as KLM provided her a seat to Europe, it should have provided one for her return.
However I don't know if KLM is bound by the ADA outside of the US as they are not a US flag carrier.
Is there a European equivelant of the ADA?

Dunno. but post #87 has a link to KLM's T's & C's. Maybe that will offer useful data.

leikec
11-29-2012, 06:25 PM
Air freight rates factor weight into the cost. Your freight weighs more, you pay more.

Air passenger rates should also be adjusted for the weight of the passenger. It's unreasonable that the air fare is the same whether the passenger weighs 350 pound or 150 pounds, and the 175 pound passenger pays an extra fee to check a 25 pound bag while the 350 pound tubbo gets his 200 pounds of lard shipped for free.

I'd be very happy if all the commercial airlines put a reasonable weight restriction on all passengers. 200 pounds would be a good number. You weigh over 200, you don't fly commercial.

BTW, that lady didn't die because she wasn't allowed to fly. She died because she ate herself to death.


I'm 5'8" tall and I weigh 280lbs, and I have congestive heart failure and atrial fibrillation. I'm 55 years old.

I am overweight. At one time I weighed 325lbs.


There are two things I can say about your post:

1. it's nonsense to suggest that people over 200lbs shouldn't fly...

2. you shouldn't make blanket judgments about people you've never met, because I promise you I can hang with you or beat you in just about any athletic activity you'd care to try.

I don't know you, I have no idea how old you are, or how much you weigh. I did a 30 mile ride on my bike yesterday--what did you do?



Jeff C

John Meachen
11-29-2012, 06:33 PM
“So why does a person with health issues go to a country where they "don't trust" the doctors?” [#113]

“ . . . Hungary, where she and her husband, Janos Soltesz, took an annual vacation to a home they owned in their native country . . .” [OP]

So why do people ask questions to which they already have answers?
Owning a property does not necessarily compel a person with chronic health to visit the country.Choosing to do so implies an acceptance of the risks.

Duncan Gibbs
11-29-2012, 06:55 PM
Whatever your views on this unfortunate situation, my prediction is that the deceased's husband has precisely one eight of sweet Fanny Adams of winning any claims against KLM, Delta or Lufthansa.

The weight of evidence is stacked against him.

Phillip Allen
11-29-2012, 07:04 PM
Whatever your views on this unfortunate situation, my prediction is that the deceased's husband has precisely one eight of sweet Fanny Adams of winning any claims against KLM, Delta or Lufthansa.

The weight of evidence is stacked against him.

she musta known she was dying... perhaps they were just trying to have it happen on a plane... might want to check how long ago they started looking for a laywer and how long ago she stopped taking her meds?

Tom Montgomery
11-29-2012, 07:25 PM
A very sad story.

B_B
11-29-2012, 07:28 PM
...The weight of evidence is stacked against him.
sheesh! :D

Figment
11-29-2012, 07:52 PM
Have you seen the planes the NFL teams use?

This is a Plessner thread that's just begging to happen!

Duncan Gibbs
11-29-2012, 07:59 PM
Have you seen the planes the NFL teams use?
Jumbo jets right?!

Phil Y
11-29-2012, 08:13 PM
Wide body

PeterSibley
11-29-2012, 08:16 PM
I'm going to suggest instead "foodlike manufactured items", it takes a lot of beans and lettuce to get fat.


Likely..? I can give you an ironclad guarantee about that excessive food intake :-) Pure physics, the Law of the Conservation of Energy -- these pounds of fat are just accumulated calories, all of which came from food.

Also, there is a simple, tested (and very well historically tested), environmentally correct, cheap, no-equipment-or-weird-stuff-necessary way to lose weight:


EAT LESS

Kaa

Y Bar Ranch
11-30-2012, 11:03 AM
Few extra thoughts on the lady's predicament and travel in general.

In air travel, you are pretty much expected to be able to evacuate yourself from the aircraft in an emergency. Get out of your seat, make it to the door, go down the slide or climb onto the wing and hop down, and then get away from the aircraft. Hopefully people will be helping each other.

If you are disabled with no real mobility on your own, you are probably toast in a situation where you have to evacuate quick. Aircraft smoke and fumes or fire are perfect case. That is a risk you assume.

If you try to egress but can't and block people behind you, people are probably going to die that needn't have died. Trying to get out an over wing exit and failing is an obvious case. Squeezing up the center aisle is also for the morbidly obese. I don't think this guy should even be allowed to sit way back in the plane, just due to high probability that he is going to have trouble egressing in an emergency, and all the people he'll block. Stick him up in the front or all the way in the back by an exit.

http://www.nypost.com/rw/nypost/2009/12/04/news/photos_stories/cropped/obese_man--300x300.jpg

On every commercial flight, I do a quick scan of the nearest exits, flip open the guide to see how the hatch works, count the number of seatbacks between me and that exit, and then 2-3 times I do a quick mental rehearsal of going by feel only counting seatbacks, getting to hatch, getting it open, and going out the hatch. Takes maybe a minute for everything. You should too!

Dave Wright
11-30-2012, 11:50 AM
... Pure physics, the Law of the Conservation of Energy -- these pounds of fat are just accumulated calories, all of which came from food.

Kaa

I flew across the country on Wednesday with an elbow in my side. The guy next to me was perfectly nice, just too big for the seat. I weigh 165 and the seats are uncomfortable for me. I put up with it because I hate to pay the first class rate.

The next generation of seats will be lighter, recline less, and pitched closer together. I expect they'll be much less comfortable for me. I may decide to travel first class if it gets too uncomfortable.

If I weighed 470 pounds I'd pay for two first class seats, have my own special seat belt extender with DER appproval paperwork attached, and pay for 2 to 4 big guys to load me aboard in a stretcher. End of story. This is a damn stupid thread; everyone loves a "victim" tale apparently. And thank you Kaa for the raw, unblemished truth, even though it has become unpalatable and politically incorrect.

Kaa
11-30-2012, 12:04 PM
On every commercial flight, I do a quick scan of the nearest exits, flip open the guide to see how the hatch works, count the number of seatbacks between me and that exit, and then 2-3 times I do a quick mental rehearsal of going by feel only counting seatbacks, getting to hatch, getting it open, and going out the hatch. Takes maybe a minute for everything. You should too!

8-D

You really do this, 2-3 times even..? Um, errr... how shall I put this... maybe there's a pill you can take for that?

Kaa

Paul Pless
11-30-2012, 12:09 PM
maybe there's a pill you can take for that?

Kaa+ 1

I once flew transatlantic with a guy who commented that he would never take his shoes off in flight in case of a crash he would need them to be able to run away from impending fire if he survived the initial impact.

B_B
11-30-2012, 12:14 PM
+ 1

I once flew transatlantic with a guy who commented that he would never take his shoes off in flight in case of a crash he would need them to be able to run away from impending fire if he survived the initial impact.
Transatlantic you'd want your shoes off for swimming efficiency.

Kaa
11-30-2012, 12:17 PM
Transatlantic you'd want your shoes off for swimming efficiency.

I don't think there's even a single case of anyone surviving a commercial jet crash over water.

Kaa

Phillip Allen
11-30-2012, 12:19 PM
I don't think there's even a single case of anyone surviving a commercial jet crash over water.

Kaa

yes, there is... think about it

B_B
11-30-2012, 12:20 PM
I don't think there's even a single case of anyone surviving a commercial jet crash over water.

Kaa
I'm just trying to be prepared. Let's say the plane landed safely and we got past the aisle blockers and out the hatch and into the water, the last thing you'd want is to die because, you know, your feet were weighed down. So I'm taking my shoes off transatlantic. And wearing speedo's.

Kaa
11-30-2012, 12:25 PM
think about it

I don't do that kinda thing :-D

But otherwise, yeah, I google-checked and I was wrong :-/ <covers head in shame and runs aways sobbing>

Kaa

Peerie Maa
11-30-2012, 12:28 PM
I don't think there's even a single case of anyone surviving a commercial jet crash over water.

Kaa

How soon they forget.
Hudson River?

It is extreamly difficult to set down without cartwheeling and breaking up though.

B_B
11-30-2012, 12:31 PM
...Hudson River?
It is extreamly difficult to set down without cartwheeling and breaking up though.
Was it 'technically' a crash? An unexpected, and unexpectedly successful, water landing.

Rum_Pirate
11-30-2012, 12:34 PM
I don't think there's even a single case of anyone surviving a commercial jet crash over water.

Kaa


You could look in here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accidents_and_incidents_involving_commerci al_aircraft

Y Bar Ranch
11-30-2012, 12:41 PM
+ 1

I once flew transatlantic with a guy who commented that he would never take his shoes off in flight in case of a crash he would need them to be able to run away from impending fire if he survived the initial impact.
I don't wear open sandals on flights for that reason.

And yes, I do the mental rehearsal. I close my eyes and picture, "Stand up, pivot, seatback, seatback, seatback, turn right, door, lift handle, push out." Takes me longer to type it here than to mentally run through it, and gives me a shot at getting out alive. But then, you're talking to someone who has done this training...

http://www.15thmeu.marines.mil/SharedMedia/15thmeu/2006/Jan/13/060113-M-0000A-123_medium.jpg

... a good thirty times. You learn what works, and what doesn't. Winging it doesn't unfortunately. :(

The key to getting out when you can't see is to go from known handhold to known handhold in a sequence that takes you to the door. Imagine you are in your sailboat, having suffered a knockdown in the pitch black. You could be in this situation.

Peerie Maa
11-30-2012, 12:41 PM
Was it 'technically' a crash? An unexpected, and unexpectedly successful, water landing.

In the same way that landing on a runway with the undercarriage up is a successful landing that does not need the boarding steps to disembark?:D

Kaa
11-30-2012, 12:42 PM
Yeah, yeah :-)

What I actually google-found was this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_961

Kaa

P.S. Hey, I found who I can blame! I blame The Economist! :-D

"Also, in December 2002, The Economist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist) had quoted an expert as claiming that "No large airliner has ever made an emergency landing on water" in an article that goes on to charge, "So the life jackets ... have little purpose other than to make passengers feel better."[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_landing#cite_note-6)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_landing#cite_note-7) This idea was repeated in The Economist in September 2006 in an article which reported that "in the history of aviation the number of wide-bodied aircraft that have made successful landings on water is zero."[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_landing#cite_note-8)"

Peerie Maa
11-30-2012, 12:51 PM
^ a lotta water under the wings since 2002 :D

Rum_Pirate
11-30-2012, 02:44 PM
November 23rd 1996



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE2Yn0cipTY

This Boeing 767-260ER belonging to Ethiopian Airlines was en route from Addis Ababa, Ethiopia, to Nairobi, Kenya, on November 23rd 1996. 172 passengers and crew were onboard.
The plane was hijacked by three Ethiopians seeking political asylum in Australia, and asking the crew to fly to Australia.
The pilot explained they had only taken on the fuel needed for the scheduled flight and thus could not even make a quarter of the journey, but the hijackers did not believe him.
The pilot secretly headed for the Comoro Islands, which lie midway between Madagascar and the African mainland.
The plane eventually ran out of fuel.
A fight with the hijackers prevented the crew to land on Comores aiport.
The pilot tried to ditch the aircraft in shallow waters 500 metres off the coast.
The plane left engine and wingtip struck the water first.
The left engine then struck a coral reef, slowing that side of the aircraft quickly, causing the Boeing 767 to violently spin left and break apart.

122 of the 172 people on board were killed, along with the hijackers.

The other 50 survived with injuries.

Tom Wilkinson
11-30-2012, 04:12 PM
I flew across the country on Wednesday with an elbow in my side. The guy next to me was perfectly nice, just too big for the seat. I weigh 165 and the seats are uncomfortable for me. I put up with it because I hate to pay the first class rate.

The next generation of seats will be lighter, recline less, and pitched closer together. I expect they'll be much less comfortable for me. I may decide to travel first class if it gets too uncomfortable.

If I weighed 470 pounds I'd pay for two first class seats, have my own special seat belt extender with DER appproval paperwork attached, and pay for 2 to 4 big guys to load me aboard in a stretcher. End of story. This is a damn stupid thread; everyone loves a "victim" tale apparently. And thank you Kaa for the raw, unblemished truth, even though it has become unpalatable and politically incorrect.
Paying for two FC seats isn't going to do you much good on most modern airliners. For most the of them you are talking lay flat seats, or seats that cannot have the armrest removed. Two seats won't help you any if you are that large.

Figment
11-30-2012, 04:16 PM
The key to getting out when you can't see is to go from known handhold to known handhold in a sequence that takes you to the door. Imagine you are in your sailboat, having suffered a knockdown in the pitch black. You could be in this situation.

An airliner full of panicking whoever is a far cry from a rolled boat.

I think your scenario fails to account for the general stampede.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
11-30-2012, 08:01 PM
The decisions we make around food are important. Our education systems tell us that, our government programs tell us that. Our doctors tell us that.

Obesity in the USA and Canada is particularly linked to the availability of fast cheap food high in fat, and poor choices in meal planning and execution. There is also a relationship between obesity and social standing. Poorer, less educated people stand a higher chance of being overweight. Yes, there are eating disorders, but a lot of people simply gain weight and think nothing of it until their health declines, just like smokers.

The first decision you have to make regarding a destructive behaviour is that you don't want to continue with it.

George Jung
11-30-2012, 08:38 PM
Perhaps there is hope (crowd pleasing toilets?)

Test-Flying the 787 Dreamliner (http://travel.nytimes.com/2012/12/02/travel/test-flying-the-boeing-787-dreamliner.html?hp)

Meli
11-30-2012, 08:48 PM
hmm, If ticket prices were related to the weight of the passenger .....
want to share a 22 hour trip with 50 overwrought adults and 200 ankle biters ? :D

George Jung
11-30-2012, 09:01 PM
Gosh, I dunno, Meli.... what'd ya have in mind?

Meli
11-30-2012, 09:17 PM
Kindy trips to Disney Land LOL :arg

purri
12-01-2012, 03:12 AM
Solution: start a live cattle/horse transport airline.

Y Bar Ranch
12-01-2012, 07:36 AM
An airliner full of panicking whoever is a far cry from a rolled boat.

I think your scenario fails to account for the general stampede.
Becomes even more important that you have your egress plan pre-wired.

When they train us in the hello immersion simulator, it is pretty chaotic when in the last of four scenarios, they make everyone wear blackout goggles to blind you and have everyone swim out the main hatch. People kicking each other in the head, etc. Got to stick to your plan or you get lost.

ahp
12-01-2012, 02:19 PM
Solution: start a live cattle/horse transport airline.

Such airlines do exist. Gorillas have also been transported by air. How? Very carefully.

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 02:34 PM
Such airlines do exist. Gorillas have also been transported by air. How? Very carefully.

I'll bet Romny's horses have been transported in this way

Ian McColgin
12-01-2012, 02:37 PM
Sometimes various large animals are on the same plane as human passengers. I remember flying with Dad in a 747 that had some elephants, for example.

Phillip Allen
12-01-2012, 02:41 PM
Sometimes various large animals are on the same plane as human passengers. I remember flying with Dad in a 747 that had some elephants, for example.

must have been hard to 'pach' em in

hint... pachyderm

Katherine
12-02-2012, 01:40 AM
She was a human being,not live stock.

Bob Adams
12-02-2012, 08:32 AM
She was a human being,not live stock.

Some people here are real insensitive @$$es. I mentioned Palidin earlier, towards the end he was grossly overweight due to health issues. Would these bastards have acted the same had this happened to him?

BrianM
12-02-2012, 12:30 PM
I felt sad for the woman and her husband when I first read the article last week. I feel sad for mankind (again) when I see a lot of garbage spewed here.

A little kindness could have gone along way here.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
12-02-2012, 12:55 PM
Kindness has nothing to do with it. Would I wish sickness on anyone? No. This was about a family suing an airline, knowing full well their relative was very very ill, and they flew anyway. Somehow the responsibility for the decisions they made are on the airline. I don't agree.

As to the rest, I believe there is a responsibility for your own health that cannot be passed on to anyone else. I have abused my body over the years, and I'm sure it has influenced the length of my life. I hope I don't blame anyone else for what were my choices.

Ian McColgin
12-02-2012, 01:16 PM
Here is one of my rare disagreements with Peter. The Soltesz's were taking a risk and Mrs. Soltesz might have died even had KLM gotten her home as planned and scheduled. But it was not an unreasonable risk and obviously had she returned home and died on the day she died, no airline could possibly be in any way at fault.

I'd be surprised if the other two airlines are all that liable since Mrs. Soltesz required special accomodation that really do require advanced planning, but KLM knew what they were doing, knew and had met her needs already, and knew when she was to return. If they can prove that there was a legitimate unforseeable and uncorrectable equipement failure, they can probably be held not liable. The suit really is about whether they did what was required or whether they made an arbitrary decision.

We do know that with seat packing as it is, people even a little over average height face serious discomfort and even health problems if the flight is long enough and the obese are even more energetically discriminated against. As humans in the industrial world grow larger, their airline seats grow smaller.

Chris Woodward
12-02-2012, 01:39 PM
My God, you people are still flogging the fat lady? The last bastion of acceptable predjudice. How dare you fat people go out in public? What gives you fatties the right to a life? How dare you fatsos use up the precious resourses that are by rights ours? She just couldn't leave Hungry could she? Damn good thing she didn't go to Turkey, she'd a scarfed the whole place down! And the Greece would a dribbled down her three chins! Kill Piggy Kill Piggy Kill Piggy Kill Piggy

Y Bar Ranch
12-02-2012, 02:45 PM
Here is one of my rare disagreements with Peter. The Soltesz's were taking a risk and Mrs. Soltesz might have died even had KLM gotten her home as planned and scheduled. But it was not an unreasonable risk and obviously had she returned home and died on the day she died, no airline could possibly be in any way at fault.

It was a terrible risk. She was terminally ill, dying just two days later. With the stress of air travel and the forced immobility and reduced oxygen due to the cabin pressure altitude of up to 8000 ft, she would have been at great risk. She needed an air ambulance service or at a minimum a medical escort service. Having her collapse and die during the fight without medical assistance was highly likely, with an enroute divert involved and everyone else's schedules destroyed. Wonder if any of them were trying to get home to visit dying relatives or seek treatment?

The fact that three different airlines from three different countries at two different airports all tried to accommodate and couldn't tells me it couldn't be done. She obviously was in a different condition going home than coming over, in late renal failure, so the argument that if she came one way she could have made it back doesn't hold water. If she had been in the same condition coming over as when she tried to get home, she would have been dead two days after arriving in Hungary. That two different airline Captains decided to abort the effort tells me there were safety of flight issues.

Google air ambulance and medical escort if you want to see what she needed.

Ian McColgin
12-02-2012, 03:06 PM
Y Bar either has access to information not contained in any of the stories published and cited on this thread or a wonderful imagination. One of the problems morbidly obese people face when seeking transport accomodation is beyond failure to meet some rather simple accomodations, the personnel will often find "problems" no one else can see. In other words, bull . . .

Y Bar Ranch
12-02-2012, 03:19 PM
Y Bar either has access to information not contained in any of the stories published and cited on this thread or a wonderful imagination. One of the problems morbidly obese people face when seeking transport accomodation is beyond failure to meet some rather simple accomodations, the personnel will often find "problems" no one else can see. In other words, bull . . .
From the original story she died of renal failure, and her husband said it caused her to gain water weight and they couldn't get an extender. Renal failure is not like a heart attack, where the kidney quits and you die hours later. It takes time. Facts.

Three airlines tried to get her onboard. Fact. Two Captains eventually denied boarding. Fact.

She wasn't as sick coming over as she was going home, because she didn't die two days after she got there. Fact.

What exactly are you disputing?

S/V Laura Ellen
12-02-2012, 03:28 PM
She could have saved almost 170 posts if she just sang a song.

Ian McColgin
12-02-2012, 03:36 PM
On October 15, the date of the Solteszes' reservation at the end of their planned month's visit to their home in Hungary, KLM did not claim a problem with seat extenders. From this we can reasonably conclude that Mrs. Soltesz's weight was not so different from her trip over on KLM roughly a month before. It is clear that in the nine days after KLM's initial inability, for whatever reason, to keep the reservation Mrs Soltesz's health grew worse. Yet none of the stories make even the shadow of a claim that she was of significantly greater weight or indeed in particularly worse health when she tried to fly home to the US and KLM denied her a seat.

KLM may have a legitimate defense, but that defense is not aided by imaginative speculation fueled by anti-fat revulsion.

Duncan Gibbs
12-02-2012, 05:25 PM
The central issue for me is that she REFUSED treatment in Hungary.

She and her husband could have sought medical treatment in a neighbouring country with a better medical system, such as Austria, or Germany and travelled there by road. They chose not to do this.

They chose to attempt to board an airliner on three separate occasions and were (as Y-Bar has pointed out) refused permission to board on three separate occasions, twice by the captains, whose arbitration on these kinds is matters is pretty well final.

This isn't really a story about a morbidly obese woman, but rather one about a whole series of bad choices and stupid planning on the part of this couple, with the worst possible outcome.

To attempt to lump her death from a pre-existing medical condition onto the shoulders of KLM is another act of blind stupidity and is likely to lose her husband all his cash, and probably then some.

Y Bar Ranch
12-02-2012, 05:44 PM
On October 15, the date of the Solteszes' reservation at the end of their planned month's visit to their home in Hungary, KLM did not claim a problem with seat extenders.
Same story, different report, including a quote from the husband.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/airlines_left_my_wife_to_die_nF3WDbQiw0EZLnvYr9XQm M


But the couple, both natives of Hungary, were told Vilma couldn’t be accommodated by KLM after they boarded the jet home, Janos said.


“They tried to fit her into the back of the plane, but they didn’t have an extension to secure her,” Janos, 56, said.

Her illness, a combination of kidney disease and diabetes, caused her to gain water weight, and the airline said it didn’t have a seat-belt extender for her, Janos said.

Ian McColgin
12-02-2012, 06:18 PM
Well, that's what lawsuits are for - establishing facts. Can't see what Delta has to do with dooodiddley but perhaps more will come out.

Duncan Gibbs
12-02-2012, 06:35 PM
The fact is a commercial airline is NOT a medi-vac service and can refuse to board any passenger on a whole range of grounds, including merely being ill-mannered to staff. The pax is then, usually, refunded their ticket and told to look elsewhere for passage.

The other fact is there are actually hospitals in Europe: Lots of them! Some of them are even very good with some of the best specialists money, or insurance, or being a citizen of the European Union can give you access to.

These two facts, which are very well established, tell me that the husband has exactly a zero percentage chance of winning a legal battle with KLM on the grounds that the airline either caused, or contributed to his wife's demise. None! Nadda! Nil! Zilch!

Ian McColgin
12-02-2012, 06:41 PM
And the fat lady is dead.

I find KLM's remarks more dignified, more respectful and more plausable than the defenders of no fat flyers.

Paul Pless
12-02-2012, 09:07 PM
These two facts, which are very well established, tell me that the husband has exactly a zero percentage chance of winning a legal battle with KLM on the grounds that the airline either caused, or contributed to his wife's demise. None! Nadda! Nil! Zilch!

You don't know much about legal battles do you? Lawsuits are expensive for corporations. They may well settle.

Duncan Gibbs
12-02-2012, 09:22 PM
As it is I do Paul: Being in the construction industry for over 20 years I've seen a bit a corporate legal action from time to time. If the sums being talked about are big enough, the precedents that may be set by the action potentially larger beyond that single case, and the public relations issues are not damaging to the business being sued a fight will ensue.

Since this is one widower against three very big corporations, with the basic fact that his wife didn't seek treatment in-situ I would lay the odds against any settlement in his favour, or any win for him in court. I would suggest that at the end, not only will he have his own lawyer's bill to pay (if she is working on a no-win, no-fee basis, which may not be allowed in Europe), but also those of the lawyers acting for the airlines and the court costs. It seems pretty clear that he's not getting the best legal advice.

If there are aircraft safety issues at stake all three airlines will have tech' crews, cabin crews, aircraft engineers and aviation safety authorities to call on as expert witnesses This guys has what... A bodgy Hungarian lawyer?

wizbang 13
12-04-2012, 11:19 AM
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/31605_560500663976579_1838548594_n.jpg

B_B
12-04-2012, 11:24 AM
Her lawyer has a tough row to hoe:

DamagesUnder the Montreal Convention, air carriers are strictly liable for proven damages up to 113,100 special drawing rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_drawing_rights) (SDR) (Updated from 100,000 on December 31 2009), a mix of currency values established by the International Monetary Fund (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Monetary_Fund) (IMF), approximately $138,000 per passenger at the time of its ratification by the United States in 2003 (as of December 2011, around $175,800). Where damages of more than 113,100 SDR are sought, the airline may avoid liability by proving that the accident which caused the injury or death was not due to their negligence or was attributable to the negligence of a third party. This defence is not available where damages of less than 113,100 SDR are sought. The Convention also amended the jurisdictional provisions of Warsaw and now allows the victim or their families to sue foreign carriers where they maintain their principal residence, and requires all air carriers to carry liability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_liability) insurance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurance).
The Montreal Convention changes and generally increases the maximum liability of airlines for lost baggage to a fixed amount 1131 SDR (the amount in the Warsaw Convention is based on weight of the baggage).
Montreal Convention was brought about mainly to amend liabilities to be paid to families for death or injury whilst on board an aircraft.

beernd
12-04-2012, 12:37 PM
Same story, different report, including a quote from the husband.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/airlines_left_my_wife_to_die_nF3WDbQiw0EZLnvYr9XQm M

That's it arriving the oct 15th they planned to stay for a month, yet oct 22 they want to fly home, so KLM or any other company got the chance to prepair the equipment properly.

And WHY did they want to return to the US just a week after arrival.
Let me guess Mrs. Soltezs health condition went south all of the sudden.
Going to a hospital would have been the only choice to make

beernd
12-04-2012, 12:41 PM
And the fat lady is dead.

I find KLM's remarks more dignified, more respectful and more plausable than the defenders of no fat flyers.

It is not about fat flyers, it is about very ill flyers who need special equipment.
Or who should be in hospital getting the medical care they need to survive.
The lady had a acute health problem, KLM would have taken her aboard she would have died during the flight.

Ian McColgin
12-04-2012, 02:14 PM
"That's it arriving the oct 15th they planned to stay for a month, " [#179]

This takes the prize for incredibly sloppy fact fabrication. Please go back to the OP and read how on October 15 they went to the airport for their return flight, as scheduled, after their month's stay.

And before you indulge in further fat fabrications, try to at least understand the basic time line. Or not. Almost all of the anti-fat lady bile spilled here is either based on falsehoods or fantasies.

I am not sorry to put it so bluntly but I'm really tired of people using this sad case as an excuse to blame the dead lady and her husband, mixing fat and Hungarian jokes, and generally behaving in a way that would seriously embarrass KLM, who luckily for them have attempted, like the plaintiff, to stick to true statements.