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hanleyclifford
11-18-2012, 05:42 AM
Just in case there might remain some who think the Iraq war wasn't the most jackass of our era. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/16/liberated-iraq-calls-on-arab-states-to-use-oil-as-weapon-against-us/?intcmp=trending

Ian McColgin
11-18-2012, 08:22 AM
Since the article does not draw the conclusion of the thread opener, perhaps hanleyclifford will explain. It seems at first blush that my reasons for opposing our unprovoked aggression on Iraq are different from his.

Willin'
11-18-2012, 08:33 AM
Oh, I don't know, the 10 odd years in Vietnam, defending us against attack from North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia ranks right up there. Who knows, though, in another 40 years Iraq may become the latest hot US tourism destination.

hanleyclifford
11-18-2012, 09:25 AM
Oh, I don't know, the 10 odd years in Vietnam, defending us against attack from North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia ranks right up there. Who knows, though, in another 40 years Iraq may become the latest hot US tourism destination. I remember the "hot" tour in Vietnam, but I'm not aware that it is now a hot tourist attraction. Though Vietnam was undoubtedly one of the US stupider moves, Iraq adds a further element: in Iraq we destroyed a useful ally and installed the friends of our enemy, Iran. Americans keep getting killed all over the world for stupid reasons (and doing some killing of their own).

Soundbounder
11-18-2012, 09:52 AM
http://i851.photobucket.com/albums/ab79/Soundbounder/TomTomorrow_TheirOwnWords2.jpg

fishrswim
11-18-2012, 09:53 AM
Just in case there might remain some who think the Iraq war wasn't the most jackass of our era. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/16/liberated-iraq-calls-on-arab-states-to-use-oil-as-weapon-against-us/?intcmp=trending

We should not be surprised. We invaded one of the most modern countries in the Middle East. Destroyed major parts of it's infrastructure, killed at least a million of it's citizens. And, oh BTW got rid of Saddam. Then we hung around for the next decade under the guise of nation building and we expect gratitude?

We'll get gratitude about the time the Great Pumpkin shows up for Charlie Brown, or Atlanta puts up a statue honoring US Grant for "liberating" the city from the Confederacy.

Ian McColgin
11-18-2012, 10:17 AM
We gratuitously destroyed infrastructure, especially water thus causing cholora outbreaks, and caused the deaths of more non-combatant civilians per year than Saddam did at his worst.

I'm guessing now, but perhaps hanleyclifford meant to connect the story of Iraqi leaders calling for an oil embargo on supporters of Israel with the dark suspicion that Bush 43's war of aggression was not about freedom as he claimed and not about showing up his Daddy as many amateur psychoanalysts claimed but was, as most leftys thought, all about oil. But if it's not about getting the oil and more about the oil industry gaining profits, perhaps it worked out pretty well.

hanleyclifford
11-18-2012, 03:14 PM
We gratuitously destroyed infrastructure, especially water thus causing cholora outbreaks, and caused the deaths of more non-combatant civilians per year than Saddam did at his worst.

I'm guessing now, but perhaps hanleyclifford meant to connect the story of Iraqi leaders calling for an oil embargo on supporters of Israel with the dark suspicion that Bush 43's war of aggression was not about freedom as he claimed and not about showing up his Daddy as many amateur psychoanalysts claimed but was, as most leftys thought, all about oil. But if it's not about getting the oil and more about the oil industry gaining profits, perhaps it worked out pretty well. The connection that should be made is this, Ian: the Iraq war accomplished simultaneously and elegantly the destabilization of the region, all of the terrible destruction in Iraq described by others, the huge squandering of American blood and treasure, and (the piece de resistance) the creation/enabling of powerful enemies of our ally, Israel. The stupidity of the Iraq war is going to keep costing us.

Hal Forsen
11-18-2012, 03:44 PM
The connection that should be made is this, Ian: the Iraq war accomplished simultaneously and elegantly the destabilization of the region, all of the terrible destruction in Iraq described by others, the huge squandering of American blood and treasure, and (the piece de resistance) the creation/enabling of powerful enemies of our ally, Israel. The stupidity of the Iraq war is going to keep costing us.

Yeah but it made KBR and other corporate war profiteers a pile o' money so it's got that going for it............


http://www.businesspundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/halliburton3.jpg

Shang
11-18-2012, 07:56 PM
Is it any surprise that Iraq holds a grudge against the U.S.?
How easy it is to forget that the object of the Iraq war was not to benefit Iraq, it was to loot Iraqi's oil. So the story was spread that Saddam was behind the 9-11 attack, and was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction for the purpose of attacking us again. Dick Chaney and George Bush plotted and lied, and four thousand, four hundred and eighty-six Americans died. No one knows how many Iraqis have died since records have not been kept—estimates range from one hundred thousand to over a million.

ONCE UPON A TIME (In Iraq)...
Once upon a time, Iraq had the finest education system in the Arab world.
Once upon a time, Iraq exported its expertise in education to many countries.
Once upon a time, Iraq was considered by the UN "illiteracy free."
Once upon a time, Iraq led the Arab world in scientific development.
Once upon a time, Iraq had the most modern and efficient highway system and public transport facilities in the Middle East.
Once upon a time, Iraqi women could dress however they desired: in sweat shirts and jeans, in mini-skirts, with stylish fashion, or, if they preferred, with a veil.
Once upon a time, the Iraqi public listened to rock and heavy metal music.
Once upon a time, professional and amateur sports flourished in Iraq.
Once upon a time, the arts (of all kinds) were visible all over Iraq.
Once upon a time, Iraqi homosexuals were not condemned to death because of their sexual preferences.
Once upon a time, it was a criminal offense to kill Christians or Palestinians. The term used for any crime of this nature was "murder."
Once upon a time, world experts on archaeology and antiquities were welcome to Iraq in an effort to discover the history of the country and then preserve it.
Once upon a time, veterans of the Iran-Iraq War were highly revered by the Iraqi government and public.
Once upon a time, 55% of the Iraqi work force consisted of females.
Once upon a time, females held important positions in the government, business and the fields of engineering and science.
Once upon a time, foreign workers were welcome in Iraq. They provided many services in the areas of agriculture and the construction of the Iraqi infrastructure.
Once upon a time, any scholar of Arab history was welcome in Iraq as a guest of the government. They were allowed unlimited access to historical documents so they could enhance the writing of Arab culture and share books and articles with the world.
Once upon a time, Baghdad was called "The Paris of the Middle East."
Once upon a time, Baghdad had many parks and recreational areas that families safely used.
Once upon a time, the citizens of Iraq were called Iraqis, not Shia or Sunni or Turkomen or Kurds or Chaldeans or any other designation.
Once upon a time, Iraq had no depleted uranium that was responsible for the deaths and birth defects of thousands of children.
Once upon a time, Iraq’s drinking water was safe.
Once upon a time, diseases such as hoof-and-mouth disease and malnutrition had been eradicated from Iraq.
Once upon a time, Iraqis did not lock the doors to their houses and left them wide open.
Once upon a time, Baghdad nightlife was vibrant with street performers and the smell of mouth-watering food, not the odor of blood and death.
Once upon a time, Iraqi citizens could safely walk the streets with no thoughts of harm occurring.
Once upon a time, Iraqi children were not obliged to turn to prostitution to earn enough money for their families to buy food.
Once upon a time, a gallon of gasoline cost less than one cent in Iraq and there were no long lines at petrol stations.
Once upon a time, electricity was available 24 hours a day in Iraq.
Once upon a time, Iraqis were not worried about poisoning themselves when they drank water from their taps.
Once upon a time, Iraq led the Arab world in technology.
Once upon a time, Baghdad’s streets were clean, not strewn with garbage and human bodies.
Once upon a time, Iraq had a functioning government that addressed the needs of the citizenry of Iraq.
Once upon a time, Iraq was great.

http://howthehellshouldiknow-wallyworld.blogspot.com/2010/11/iraqis-will-greet-us-with-flowers-dick.html
*

Durnik
11-18-2012, 08:27 PM
Is it any surprise that Iraq holds a grudge against the U.S.?
How easy it is to forget that the object of the Iraq war was not to benefit Iraq, it was to loot Iraqi's oil. So the story was spread that Saddam was behind the 9-11 attack, and was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction for the purpose of attacking us again. Dick Chaney and George Bush plotted and lied, and four thousand, four hundred and eighty-six Americans died. No one knows how many Iraqis have died since records have not been kept—estimates range from one hundred thousand to over a million.

ONCE UPON A TIME (In Iraq)...

....

http://howthehellshouldiknow-wallyworld.blogspot.com/2010/11/iraqis-will-greet-us-with-flowers-dick.html
*

Thank you.

enjoy
bobby

johnw
11-18-2012, 08:44 PM
Just in case there might remain some who think the Iraq war wasn't the most jackass of our era. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/11/16/liberated-iraq-calls-on-arab-states-to-use-oil-as-weapon-against-us/?intcmp=trending

The neoconservatives dreamed of empire. Instead of producing a vassal state, we left behind a sovereign country that reflects the views of its citizens.

About what they should have expected.

hanleyclifford
11-18-2012, 10:07 PM
The neoconservatives dreamed of empire. Instead of producing a vassal state, we left behind a sovereign country that reflects the views of its citizens.

About what they should have expected. The whole point of this thread is that the US should think before launching into foreign adventures; that is, about long range effects; clearly Bush and Cheney et al did not do this.

johnw
11-18-2012, 10:41 PM
The whole point of this thread is that the US should think before launching into foreign adventures; that is, about long range effects; clearly Bush and Cheney et al did not do this.

Oh, I'm sure they had to think long and hard to justify it. They created an intellectual edifice as magnificently complex as a South African termite mound, only to have it washed away by reality.

Cuyahoga Chuck
11-19-2012, 12:12 AM
Thanks ,hanley. Whenever I have queries about bad thinking I'll contact you first.

PeterSibley
11-19-2012, 02:00 AM
I remember the "hot" tour in Vietnam, but I'm not aware that it is now a hot tourist attraction. Though Vietnam was undoubtedly one of the US stupider moves, Iraq adds a further element: in Iraq we destroyed a useful ally and installed the friends of our enemy, Iran. Americans keep getting killed all over the world for stupid reasons (and doing some killing of their own).

Actually overthrowing the democratically elected Iranian government of PM Mosaddegh in 1953 and alienating Iran for the next 70 or 80 years at least must be an equally stupid move. Cheaper but stupid.

Lew Barrett
11-19-2012, 02:20 AM
Oh, I don't know, the 10 odd years in Vietnam, defending us against attack from North Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia ranks right up there. Who knows, though, in another 40 years Iraq may become the latest hot US tourism destination.


I remember the "hot" tour in Vietnam, but I'm not aware that it is now a hot tourist attraction. Though Vietnam was undoubtedly one of the US stupider moves, Iraq adds a further element: in Iraq we destroyed a useful ally and installed the friends of our enemy, Iran. Americans keep getting killed all over the world for stupid reasons (and doing some killing of their own).

I thought Willin' made a pretty good point. We could spend a lot of time arguing which is/was stupider, Vietnam or Iraq, and I might agree that Iraq could have longer and more deleterious implications, but just going by "jackass" I think the argument could be made. Unless you were one of the guys who lost a leg, a life or your future in Vietnam. Then the difference is pretty academic.

The argument for Vietnam goes like this: I have this package of dominoes. I would now like to show you why dominoes are exactly the same as countries. And as Bigfella has shown us, the costs and reverberations of that war are still terribly real for the people of Southeast Asia, where the landmines still kill hundreds of people every year and Cambodia has yet to recover from it's ordeal.

By the way, I am considering a visit to Vietnam in a couple of months, although I'll more likely get no further than Laos.

johnw
11-19-2012, 02:48 AM
Just in terms of the immediate carnage of the war, in Viet Nam about 2 million civilians died. About a quarter of a million in the South Vietnamese army died, and about a million in the Viet Cong and NVA combined.

American casualties:



58,282 KIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killed_in_action) or non-combat deaths (including the missing & deaths in captivity)[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#cite_note-44)
303,644 WIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_in_action) (including 153,303 who required hospitalization and 150,341 who didn't)[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#cite_note-45)
1,655 MIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_in_action) (originally 2,646)[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#cite_note-dtic.mil-46)
725-779 POW (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner_of_war) (660 freed/escaped,[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#cite_note-nampows.org-47) 65-119 died in captivity)[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#cite_note-48)[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_casualties#cite_note-49)


Less than a tenth as many Americans died in Iraq, and although estimates of Iraqi casualties are all over the map (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War), none run as high as Vietnamese casualties.

As one who lived through the Viet Nam era (my father served in that war when I was a teenager,) I'd have to say the Iraq war did nothing like that to tear our country apart.

LeeG
11-19-2012, 05:12 AM
The whole point of this thread is that the US should think before launching into foreign adventures; that is, about long range effects; clearly Bush and Cheney et al did not do this.

And yet GW was re-elected in 2004. GW is not a thinker, Cheney was a thinker. America didn't want a thinker they wanted a doer, or at least an actor. Thinkers like Al Gore talked about long range stuff and you know how politicized his thinking worked out. America really doesn't want thinkers.
Long range thinking isn't exactly our hallmark trait as evidenced by the number of people who think cutting taxes while waging openended war makes any sense, who think limits to growth is a moral failing and not a natural fact, who think a civilization that grew on a non-renewable energy source won't experience a decline in that resource.

Re. The Fox article, the only thing we liberated was the national credit card from the grown-ups and went on a spending spree for the MIC.

John Smith
11-19-2012, 06:45 AM
My son'in'law's parents asked my opinion about Iraq just before we invaded. I said it would be a huge mistake, Saddam has no weapons, the "war" would be quick and the "peace" would be hell. That opinion really pissed them off.

What disturbs me is after history proved he had no weapons, and we got bogged down for who could tell how long, they never said, "Gee, you were right."

The other thing that pisses me off is the continual, even at NFL games, praise for the troops who are over there "fighting for our freedoms" This is politically correct crap.

It's my humble opinion that if we are honest with ourselves, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq have nothing to do with our freedoms: They were a waste of time, money, and lives. I suspect Korea fits into this category, too.

We lie to ourselves to justify sending young men and women into a war that we cannot justify if we don't lie to ourselves.

Hal Forsen
11-19-2012, 11:55 AM
My son'in'law's parents asked my opinion about Iraq just before we invaded. I said it would be a huge mistake, Saddam has no weapons, the "war" would be quick and the "peace" would be hell. That opinion really pissed them off.

What disturbs me is after history proved he had no weapons, and we got bogged down for who could tell how long, they never said, "Gee, you were right."

The other thing that pisses me off is the continual, even at NFL games, praise for the troops who are over there "fighting for our freedoms" This is politically correct crap.

It's my humble opinion that if we are honest with ourselves, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq have nothing to do with our freedoms: They were a waste of time, money, and lives. I suspect Korea fits into this category, too.

We lie to ourselves to justify sending young men and women into a war that we cannot justify if we don't lie to ourselves.

As a veteran who endured the crys of "Babykiller!" back in the 70's I find this jingoistic claptrap especially abhorrent.

http://wammtoday.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/war-is-a-racket1.jpg
“Historically, the most terrible things - war, genocide, and slavery - have resulted not from disobedience, but from obedience.”
― Howard Zinn (http://forum.woodenboat.com/author/show/1899.Howard_Zinn)

Durnik
11-19-2012, 12:35 PM
As a veteran who endured the crys of "Babykiller!" back in the 70's I find this jingoistic claptrap especially abhorrent.

http://wammtoday.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/war-is-a-racket1.jpg

“Historically, the most terrible things - war, genocide, and slavery - have resulted not from disobedience, but from obedience.”
― Howard Zinn (http://forum.woodenboat.com/author/show/1899.Howard_Zinn)

+42

enjoy
bobby

John Smith
11-19-2012, 01:05 PM
As a veteran who endured the crys of "Babykiller!" back in the 70's I find this jingoistic claptrap especially abhorrent.

http://wammtoday.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/war-is-a-racket1.jpg
“Historically, the most terrible things - war, genocide, and slavery - have resulted not from disobedience, but from obedience.”
― Howard Zinn (http://forum.woodenboat.com/author/show/1899.Howard_Zinn)

I don't think all wars are equal. In WWII we were attacked by Japan and Germany declared War against us. I can see a reason for sending young men into battle for that war.

I don't believe any "war" since has been justified.

Somewhere along the line the powers that be stopped asking the people to support the war and asked the people to support the troops.

Before I get miscontrued and condemned, I have the utmost respect for those who put on our uniform and join the military. That doesn't mean I have to support the mission they are sent on, or that they are fighting to keep us safe. I would argue, in fact, that due to the blood and treasure we've spent in Afghanistan and Iraq we are LESS safe.

Did the troops ever get the armor after Bush got his borrowed $87 million for the body armor?

John of Phoenix
11-19-2012, 01:46 PM
"If we don't kill 'em in jungles of Vietnam, we'll have to kill 'em in cornfields of Kansas."

These days we're killing 'em in Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan and only the CIA knows where else and we're paranoid about them setting up terrorist training camps all over the country.

What's wrong with this picture?

Lew Barrett
11-19-2012, 10:28 PM
Now, however, I am leaning more to the fact that they were just totally evil incompetent FUs.

I thought you could comfortably use evil in there without fear of contradiction, so I added it for you. ;)

Steve McMahon
11-19-2012, 10:47 PM
I don't think all wars are equal. In WWII we were attacked by Japan and Germany declared War against us. I can see a reason for sending young men into battle for that war.

I don't believe any "war" since has been justified.

Somewhere along the line the powers that be stopped asking the people to support the war and asked the people to support the troops.

Before I get miscontrued and condemned, I have the utmost respect for those who put on our uniform and join the military. That doesn't mean I have to support the mission they are sent on, or that they are fighting to keep us safe. I would argue, in fact, that due to the blood and treasure we've spent in Afghanistan and Iraq we are LESS safe.

Did the troops ever get the armor after Bush got his borrowed $87 million for the body armor?

Agreed. WWII was the last war we were involved with that was for the right reasons. Iraq 1 might have qualified if we didn't drop the ball at the end. There is probably as much PTSD from the disillusion of the troops for what they were fighting for as there is from combat. Sadly Canada had a proud history of peacekeeping in minor conflicts after WWII up until our (politically stalled) inaction in Bosnia and our misguided action in Afghanistan. I was proud when we refused to get dragged into the "if you're not with us you're against us" coalition of the willing in Iraq 2. We need to get back to the peacekeeping and protect our own borders mentality.

Durnik
11-19-2012, 10:56 PM
Probablly the biggest FU in this whole war was standing down and letting the country get looted. Especially the armory at Al Qaqaa where 380 tons of ordinance was looted in early 2003. And this in a circus of TFUs by the neocons. Rummy thought that the Iraquis would just fall down and lick our boots when we walked in.
Big suprise that they showed a little back bone and started to shoot back as we advanced. I believe that the Iraqui regulars would have welcomed us, but they had to fire off a couple of rounds just to save face and for national pride. Then they must have sht their kaftans when we were the one to hesitate and become disorginized, giving them a sense that the American Army of One was just a paper tiger. You can thank Rumsfield for gutting our troops to make us meaner and leaner because we will shock and awe them into submission.
FU#2 was to strip the B'aath party of all postions and functions. Unfortunately they were all the mid- low level civil servents that actually made the country run. Thus insuring that Iraq would take a giant leap backward into the stone age. What a cluster F.
I always thought that Cheny, Wolfiwitz. Pearle, and Rumsfeld were evil genius with some kind of master plan for world domination, and that this was just a way to implement it. Now, however, I am leaning more to the fact that they were just totally incompetent FUs.

Sorry, no. They did what they wanted to do. Destruction was the order of the day. Just as in Vietnam & elsewhere (Dresden & Fallujah have a lot in common) destruction is the main goal of these animals - witness, for examples, building a helio & tank staging area directly over archaeological ruins - or bulldozing surrendering troops into trenches.. alive..

Never attribute to ignorance what is more aptly described by evil - esp when dealing with people who demonstrate their penchant for evil on a near daily basis - war on women, war on the poor, war on the environment, war on peace..

enjoy
bobby

johnw
11-19-2012, 11:55 PM
Probablly the biggest FU in this whole war was standing down and letting the country get looted. Especially the armory at Al Qaqaa where 380 tons of ordinance was looted in early 2003. And this in a circus of TFUs by the neocons. Rummy thought that the Iraquis would just fall down and lick our boots when we walked in.
Big suprise that they showed a little back bone and started to shoot back as we advanced. I believe that the Iraqui regulars would have welcomed us, but they had to fire off a couple of rounds just to save face and for national pride. Then they must have sht their kaftans when we were the one to hesitate and become disorginized, giving them a sense that the American Army of One was just a paper tiger. You can thank Rumsfield for gutting our troops to make us meaner and leaner because we will shock and awe them into submission.
FU#2 was to strip the B'aath party of all postions and functions. Unfortunately they were all the mid- low level civil servents that actually made the country run. Thus insuring that Iraq would take a giant leap backward into the stone age. What a cluster F.
I always thought that Cheny, Wolfiwitz. Pearle, and Rumsfeld were evil genius with some kind of master plan for world domination, and that this was just a way to implement it. Now, however, I am leaning more to the fact that they were just totally incompetent FUs.

The only one with war experience in the whole administration seemed to be Colin Powell, who thought it would be a good idea to prepare for after the invasion. So they ignored him.

By the way, I wonder if he'd take the job of secretary of defense if it was offered?

Dumah
11-20-2012, 12:22 AM
I wish to express my dismay over post #24 in that the US was attacked without mentioning the fact the US sat on the fence for the first part of TWO world wars, selling to BOTH sides. Yes, Japan bombed Pearl, yet a week earlier a load of scrap metal left San Diago (sic) bound for Japan. It appears to me there's a pattern in that your country waited during both world wars till there was a clear winner, then join, attempt to take all the marbles and economic benefits for yourselves.

Challenge to our southern neighbours............................ Name a war you have won WITHOUT outside help since 1776.

Cheers, Dumah,
Halifax, NS

Durnik
11-20-2012, 12:47 AM
>Name a war you have won WITHOUT outside help since 1776.

Hell, had major outside help in that one, too! ;-)

enjoy
bobby

Waddie
11-20-2012, 01:23 AM
I wish to express my dismay over post #24 in that the US was attacked without mentioning the fact the US sat on the fence for the first part of TWO world wars, selling to BOTH sides. Yes, Japan bombed Pearl, yet a week earlier a load of scrap metal left San Diago (sic) bound for Japan. It appears to me there's a pattern in that your country waited during both world wars till there was a clear winner, then join, attempt to take all the marbles and economic benefits for yourselves.

Challenge to our southern neighbours............................ Name a war you have won WITHOUT outside help since 1776.

Cheers, Dumah,
Halifax, NS

What a load of crap. In 1917 it looked like the Germans were going to win - after they made peace with the Russians and freed up millions of soldiers for the Western Front. Their offensive in 1918 was launched early in the hope of over-running the French and English before the Americans arrived at the front in force. But the Americans were there in sufficient numbers to blunt the German attack.

In December of 1941 the Germans, Japanese and even the Italians were running all over the opposition. The AXIS powers looked like winners. That's when we joined the Allies, at their lowest point. So this crazy theory of yours that we joined just to be on the winning side doesn't hold water.

And yes, since our industrial capacity did much to win the war, we made some money - but not off you foreigners. We gave away more war materiel than all of you together produced. We made money off the US taxpayer - who totally financed the US war effort and much of your war effort as well. And few, if any, of you ever paid back a cent. Want to talk about the cost to the American taxpayer of the Marshall plan, or the rebuilding of Japan, or post war foreign aid to almost every country, especially Britain?

In fact, we've been carrying the ball for most everyone since WWll - and it's high time we cut back and turned it all over to regional powers. Let's see how you will contain China's ambitions, which are starting to get aggressive. For all your bellyaching, America has been the best friend the free world has ever had.

regards,
Waddie

Durnik
11-20-2012, 02:00 AM
What a load of crap. In 1917 it looked like the Germans were going to win - after they made peace with the Russians and freed up millions of soldiers for the Western Front. Their offensive in 1918 was launched early in the hope of over-running the French and English before the Americans arrived at the front in force. But the Americans were there in sufficient numbers to blunt the German attack.

In December of 1941 the Germans, Japanese and even the Italians were running all over the opposition. The AXIS powers looked like winners. That's when we joined the Allies, at their lowest point. So this crazy theory of yours that we joined just to be on the winning side doesn't hold water.

And yes, since our industrial capacity did much to win the war, we made some money - but not off you foreigners. We gave away more war materiel than all of you together produced. We made money off the US taxpayer - who totally financed the US war effort and much of your war effort as well. And few, if any, of you ever paid back a cent. Want to talk about the cost to the American taxpayer of the Marshall plan, or the rebuilding of Japan, or post war foreign aid to almost every country, especially Britain?

In fact, we've been carrying the ball for most everyone since WWll - and it's high time we cut back and turned it all over to regional powers. Let's see how you will contain China's ambitions, which are starting to get aggressive. For all your bellyaching, America has been the best friend the free world has ever had.

regards,
Waddie

Bush & Ford selling to or invested in Germany throughout the war.. With friends like that, who needs..

As for China's ambitions getting aggressive.. just who started them down that global road, anyhow? 'Best friend', Yeah, right!

You think only Americans 'paid' for WWI&II? 'We' had no damage over here.. Europe, not so lucky, eh? Who paid? They paid in taxes.. homes.. & families..

Oh, and U.S. taxpayer money went to the biggies.. as it always does.. If things had any sense of balance, the workers would have also been enriched by the upswing in manufacturing.. But, no.. As usual, U.S. big business is the friend of only itself.

You're a man who knows history.. & understands it not. What a load of Crap!

enjoy
bobby

Waddie
11-20-2012, 02:12 AM
Durnik; Bush & Ford selling to or invested in Germany throughout the war.. With friends like that, who needs..

Show me the evidence... and not just some quack blogger....


As for China's ambitions getting aggressive.. just who started them down that global road, anyhow? 'Best friend', Yeah, right!

Mao...


You think only Americans 'paid' for WWI&II? 'We' had no damage over here.. Europe, not so lucky, eh? Who paid? They paid in taxes.. homes.. & families..

But they didn't pay for us...we paid for you, in treasure and blood...


Oh, and U.S. taxpayer money went to the biggies.. as it always does.. If things had any sense of balance, the workers would have also been enriched by the upswing in manufacturing.. But, no.. As usual, U.S. big business is the friend of only itself.

US workers did increase their standard of living as a result of producing war materiel for the Allies. Google the charts..


You're a man who knows history.. & understands it not. What a load of Crap!

You're a man who spins it as crazy as he can. What a load of crap.

regards,
Waddie

johnw
11-20-2012, 02:18 AM
I wish to express my dismay over post #24 in that the US was attacked without mentioning the fact the US sat on the fence for the first part of TWO world wars, selling to BOTH sides. Yes, Japan bombed Pearl, yet a week earlier a load of scrap metal left San Diago (sic) bound for Japan. It appears to me there's a pattern in that your country waited during both world wars till there was a clear winner, then join, attempt to take all the marbles and economic benefits for yourselves.

Challenge to our southern neighbours............................ Name a war you have won WITHOUT outside help since 1776.

Cheers, Dumah,
Halifax, NS

You clearly don't know much about history. Without the help of the French navy, we could not have won the revolutionary war. Their help was essential, and costly, and the cost contributed to the eventual fall of the French monarchy. A number of French officers chose to serve in the American military after the French Revolution. Our retirement plan did not involve their heads tumbling into a basket.

We fought the Mexican war without help and took half of their country, and fought the Spanish-American war without assistance and took most of their remaining colonies. And, of course, in the Civil War, we both won and lost (since we were fighting ourselves) without outside help.

But it's a little hard for me to see how any of that's better than winning WW II, in which most of the actual dying was done by the Russians and Chinese. Surely, the cause and the outcome are more important than whether we had help, or were helping others.

Oh, and it just hit me, we had no help with our invasion of Grenada. Is that supposed to make us feel better than helping the British, the Commonwealth, and the Russians beat Hitler? In general, the causes that have attracted allies, or have attracted us as allies, have been better causes than the wars we've fought alone. Not surprisingly, those have had more selfish roots.

Dumah
11-20-2012, 04:23 AM
I merely stated 1776 because, before that date, you were colonies and British subjects. Can't comment accurately on WWI, but as for WWII North Atlantic, control of the convoy routes was achieved. While I will admit that without your industrial capacity the war would have taken longer to win, but consider this; without control of the North Atlantic, there could not have been a Sicily, North Africa, D Day, or even (heaven forbid) Dieppe. This was done by a navy in 1939 owned 6 warships and 6000 all ranks to the world leader in antisubmarine hunting, even today. By 1942 we had the bottoms, men, and experience to take over responsibility for the entire North Atlantic thereby freeing Royal Navy units to form "Hunter/ Killer Groups". We became, by the end of the war as number 3 largest fleets, both merchant and military. Please don't think that there are others that would rather put profit before helping their neighbour and friend without reservation.

Cheers, Dumah,
Halifax, NS

Hal Forsen
11-20-2012, 11:50 AM
I don't think all wars are equal. In WWII we were attacked by Japan and Germany declared War against us.


John,
I agree when the nation itself is under attack, the gloves must come off, but as has been said here already the US was playing both sides of the fence in the early part of WWII.
Do you know why Japan attacked the US?
You won't find the answer in any of the school textbooks I've ever seen.
It may have been a "surprise" to John Q. Public but not the power brokers in DC.

Phillip Allen
11-20-2012, 01:36 PM
Yeah but it made KBR and other corporate war profiteers a pile o' money so it's got that going for it............


http://www.businesspundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/halliburton3.jpg

do you realize that's an old 1940's SeeBee recruitment poster... you have a lot of dead SeeBees roling in their graves... gosh, thanks

John of Phoenix
11-20-2012, 01:52 PM
do you realize that's an old 1940's SeeBee recruitment poster... you have a lot of dead SeeBees roling in their graves... gosh, thanks SeaBees. "Sea", as in the ocean. Like where the Navy floats all those ships and boats. Now all those SeaBees can stop rolling in their graves. "Rolling" with two Ls.

I've known a few (and Army Engineers) and if they could have done the same work for three times the pay, they'd be all over it.

Phillip Allen
11-20-2012, 02:10 PM
SeaBees. "Sea", as in the ocean. Like where the Navy floats all those ships and boats. Now all those SeaBees can stop rolling in their graves. "Rolling" with two Ls.

I've known a few (and Army Engineers) and if they could have done the same work for three times the pay, they'd be all over it.

nice well considered retort

Tell us... when speaking face to face to a bad speller, how do you tell which words are misspelled?

johnw
11-20-2012, 02:26 PM
I merely stated 1776 because, before that date, you were colonies and British subjects. Can't comment accurately on WWI, but as for WWII North Atlantic, control of the convoy routes was achieved. While I will admit that without your industrial capacity the war would have taken longer to win, but consider this; without control of the North Atlantic, there could not have been a Sicily, North Africa, D Day, or even (heaven forbid) Dieppe. This was done by a navy in 1939 owned 6 warships and 6000 all ranks to the world leader in antisubmarine hunting, even today. By 1942 we had the bottoms, men, and experience to take over responsibility for the entire North Atlantic thereby freeing Royal Navy units to form "Hunter/ Killer Groups". We became, by the end of the war as number 3 largest fleets, both merchant and military. Please don't think that there are others that would rather put profit before helping their neighbour and friend without reservation.

Cheers, Dumah,
Halifax, NS

That answers none of the points I made, but it does make clear that we could have left the whole war to the Canadians, and not sacrificed the more than 400,000 American soldiers, sailors, and airmen who died in that war.

LeeG
11-20-2012, 02:28 PM
Or when speaking for the dead how do you tell if they roll left or right?

skuthorp
11-20-2012, 02:50 PM
This thread is even more depressing than the vote rigging one. Taken together they should tell us something about necessary change. But I won't hold my breath.

John of Phoenix
11-20-2012, 03:06 PM
From the Faux article:
...raising more questions about the Middle Eastern nation's allegiance to the country that freed it from a ruthless dictatorship.No one else could say we "freed [Iraq] from a ruthless dictatorship" and expect subservient loyalty. Forget about "Shock & Awe" and hundreds of thousands of dead women and children and millions of refugees and civil war. "We greased Saddam and they owe us."

Buncha frikin' clowns.

Hal Forsen
11-20-2012, 03:56 PM
do you realize that's an old 1940's SeeBee recruitment poster... you have a lot of dead SeeBees roling in their graves... gosh, thanks

Yeah
Rollin' in their graves because they laid down their lives, so the good old USA could continue to wage wars for profit.............
FWIW I am a 60% disabled NAVY vet, so don't try preachin' to me pal.
And Your Welcome.

Boater14
11-20-2012, 03:58 PM
Any dope knows you never depose the strongman unless you have another in the wings. Our leaders then were such crooks they actually thought that mafioso Chalibi in his Armani suit was going to fill the bill. Right. Then they disbanded the army and let a bunch of pissed off AK-47 toting soldiers loose on the streets. Everything they predicted was wrong and almost half the population just voted for the guy who had them as his advisers. Abandon all hope.

Phillip Allen
11-20-2012, 04:53 PM
Yeah
Rollin' in their graves because they laid down their lives, so the good old USA could continue to wage wars for profit.............
FWIW I am a 60% disabled NAVY vet, so don't try preachin' to me pal.
And Your Welcome.

Well, you passed me... I'm only 30%

PhaseLockedLoop
11-20-2012, 05:26 PM
About Iraq--Didn't Kerry say, in 2004, that he would have invaded Iraq even if he knew there were no WMD? How's that for stupid? And what do Democrats say about that now?

About Waddie:
In December of 1941 the Germans, Japanese and even the Italians were running all over the opposition. The AXIS powers looked like winners. That's when we joined the Allies, at their lowest point. So this crazy theory of yours that we joined just to be on the winning side doesn't hold water.

I believe we joined the Allies because of the infamous "sneak attack" on Pearl Harbor. And just by the way--should Japan have warned us that they would attack PH? Is that the proper, non-sneaky way?

johnw
11-20-2012, 06:18 PM
About Iraq--Didn't Kerry say, in 2004, that he would have invaded Iraq even if he knew there were no WMD? How's that for stupid? And what do Democrats say about that now?

About Waddie:

I believe we joined the Allies because of the infamous "sneak attack" on Pearl Harbor. And just by the way--should Japan have warned us that they would attack PH? Is that the proper, non-sneaky way?

The proper way to do it is to declare war, then wait for the enemy to notice.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War
The Phoney War was a phase early in World War II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II) that was marked by a lack of major military operations by the Western Allies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Allies) against the German Reich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Reich). The phase was in the months following Britain and France's declaration of war on Germany (shortly after the German invasion of Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland)) in September 1939 and preceding the Battle of France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_France) in May 1940. War was declared (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_war) by each side, but no Western power had committed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_betrayal) to launching a significant land offensive, notwithstanding the terms of the Anglo-Polish military alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Polish_military_alliance) and the Franco-Polish military alliance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Polish_alliance_%281921%29), which obliged the United Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom) and France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Third_Republic) to assist Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Polish_Republic).

Durnik
11-20-2012, 06:23 PM
Show me the evidence... and not just some quack blogger....



This knowledge was well passed around _prior_ to the web.. tho it's here (http://www.library.yale.edu/), too. Have fun! ;-)



Mao...


Survey says.. Baaah!, Wrong answer, thank you for playing.



But they didn't pay for us...we paid for you, in treasure and blood...

Incomplete at best.. Ditto above..



US workers did increase their standard of living as a result of producing war materiel (sic) for the Allies. Google the charts..

No where near as much as the 'daddy's warbuck'..



You're a man who spins it as crazy as he can. What a load of crap.

regards,
Waddie

Well, _you're_ the expert on _that_! ;-0

enjoy
bobby

Osborne Russell
11-20-2012, 06:24 PM
do you realize that's an old 1940's SeeBee recruitment poster... you have a lot of dead SeeBees roling in their graves... gosh, thanks

It was the Chimp Invasion started them rolling. You got nerve comparing shock and awe to WW2.

Phillip Allen
11-20-2012, 06:30 PM
It was the Chimp Invasion started them rolling. You got nerve comparing shock and awe to WW2.

is THAT what I did?

Osborne Russell
11-20-2012, 06:32 PM
is THAT what I did?

You honestly don't see it?

leikec
11-20-2012, 06:34 PM
Yeah
Rollin' in their graves because they laid down their lives, so the good old USA could continue to wage wars for profit.............
FWIW I am a 60% disabled NAVY vet, so don't try preachin' to me pal.
And Your Welcome.

I don't agree with Phillip on much of anything, but I know he served in the military just as you did. Perhaps you'd like to rethink your last two sentences....


Jeff C

Phillip Allen
11-20-2012, 06:40 PM
You honestly don't see it?

I'm afraid you and I don't see the same boogie men... rather than read for content, you have read into my statement what you WANT me to have said... I can't fix that

Phillip Allen
11-20-2012, 06:41 PM
Kain't we all just git along???

TomF
11-20-2012, 06:45 PM
The thinkage of bad fruit?