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mdh
11-04-2012, 07:34 PM
Started to post this on another thread but thought it best to start a new one. After you read (or don't read for that matter) this http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0602d.asp
can you name anything or anywhere Progressivism has worked.

Tom Montgomery
11-04-2012, 07:38 PM
You want us to begin with the Wilson administration 100 years ago?

Really? :rolleyes:

leikec
11-04-2012, 08:50 PM
Hilarious...

Jeff C

Dan McCosh
11-04-2012, 09:03 PM
If you think the Ku Klux Klan is a progressive movement, the argument seems a little silly.

Mrleft8
11-04-2012, 09:09 PM
No.

Keith Wilson
11-04-2012, 09:59 PM
What a crock. Carefully-selected incomplete facts, and utterly ahistorical; no understanding of the times and of context. I'm rather proud he chose Unitarians for such strong condemnation; we must be doing something right!

Durnik
11-04-2012, 10:10 PM
So I googled fff.org (future of freedom foundation - sounds like a libertarian/tea party misnomer to me).. & got a link to this -







Send to a friend

The Most Dreaded Enemy of Liberty
by James Madison, August 1993







Notice anything wrong there? What else do they have wrong.. & do you really think I'm gonna waste my time 'fact checking' the whole site? Fagedaboutit!

It is especially heinous as the works of Madison are well represented on the web - Here (http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=875&chapter=63919&layout=html&Itemid=27) is the article quoted - you see they left a _lot_ out - and a simple ref link on their site would have been so nice.

Wondering, would you like to comment on this from the same letter -


It cannot be denied that there may, in certain cases, be a difficulty in distinguishing the exact boundary between legislative and executive powers; but the real friend of the Constitution and of liberty, by his endeavors to lessen or avoid the difficulty, will easily be known from him who labours to encrease the obscurity, in order to remove the constitutional landmarks without notice.



A) note how this was understood to be an issue even at that early time.. (somewhat prior to 1993 ;-)) &
B) IYHO, would Bush or Obama be the one who most "endeavors to lessen or avoid the difficulty" - or, conversely, would Bush or Obama be the one who most "labours to encrease the obscurity"?

BTW, I often quote Madison, who was no friend of the common man. He believed the minority (wealthy, white, male land owners - that's _owners_, not people paying liens to a bank) should be protected from the majority - all the rest of us. In his view, you (& I) were just so much chattel to use. Maybe your friends need to hear that?

Your (& likely their) narrow definition of 'progressive' is way off the mark. Try researching on other than sites which only denigrate the concept.

Ah, yes - to the OP, Norman answered quite well.

enjoy
bobby

Ian McColgin
11-04-2012, 10:13 PM
Damn Unitarian vandals must have burned a question mark on Anderson's front lawn.

RichKrough
11-04-2012, 10:36 PM
Damn Unitarian vandals must have burned a question mark on Anderson's front lawn.

http://i817.photobucket.com/albums/zz98/angelgirl6591/Animated%20gifs%202/th00020148.gif

purri
11-05-2012, 01:20 AM
Dangerous drugs sold over the counter? Hey the Coca cola was pretty nice those days...

Gerarddm
11-05-2012, 02:50 AM
Whack whack, mole.


Let me state this flat out: everything decent in American life today came about because progressives fought hard for them for the past 100 years.

mdh
11-05-2012, 07:04 AM
Social security has been described as a gov't operated Ponzi scheme. Galveston County managed a much better deal for themselves and medicare is linked to SS, so private ins. would would be much preferred. Maybe Medicaid. Don't recognize the others as big progressive deals.

McMike
11-05-2012, 07:07 AM
Social security has been described as a gov't operated Ponzi scheme. Galveston County managed a much better deal for themselves and medicare is linked to SS, so private ins. would would be much preferred. Maybe Medicaid. Don't recognize the others as big progressive deals.

I describe you as a non-thinking troglodyte. Doesn't that make it so?

MiddleAgesMan
11-05-2012, 07:20 AM
Anderson tries to pass himself off as a scholar just as Dinesh D'Souza did. Neither have a scholarly bone in their bodies.

And, "social security has been described as a ponzi scheme" does not make it so. I have been described as a Renaissance man but nothing could be further from the truth.

I see the OP hails from Oklahoma...by way of Texas?

LeeG
11-05-2012, 07:21 AM
Are environmental laws evidence of progressive thinking?

Keith Wilson
11-05-2012, 07:49 AM
http://www.stichtingnieuwehelden.nl/nhelden/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/vraagteken.jpg

Basir
11-05-2012, 07:57 AM
Damn Unitarian vandals must have burned a question mark on Anderson's front lawn.


Beats those pesky Unitarian Evangelists...knocking from door to door for no particular reason.

mdh
11-05-2012, 08:47 AM
Are environmental laws evidence of progressive thinking?

As a hunter and outdoorsman, conservation is what I practice. However, I disagree with much of the environmentalist's agenda. The idea that the earth is perfect as it is now, and should never change from its present state is ridiculous. There were times when the earth was warmer and colder than it is now. To say that it should stay as it is now goes against nature.

Drilling in the Gulf, Alaska, and building the Keystone pipeline are all opposed by the environmentalists, but should be exploited, in my opinion, to spur the economy and bring us closer to self dependence.

The EPA often works on regulations that are dreamed up by bureaucrats rather than actual laws. As I've said before, by their regs., large portions of NY and NJ could now be classified as wetlands, restricting their redevelopment.

hanleyclifford
11-05-2012, 09:29 AM
The destruction of wetlands was what made the effects of Hurricane Katrina (and every other hurricane in the region) far more destructive than they might have been. Wetlands are critically important. It is vital to protect wetlands from development, especially if they are on other peoples' property.

Mrleft8
11-05-2012, 09:50 AM
As a hunter and outdoorsman, conservation is what I practice. However, I disagree with much of the environmentalist's agenda. The idea that the earth is perfect as it is now, and should never change from its present state is ridiculous. There were times when the earth was warmer and colder than it is now. To say that it should stay as it is now goes against nature.

Drilling in the Gulf, Alaska, and building the Keystone pipeline are all opposed by the environmentalists, but should be exploited, in my opinion, to spur the economy and bring us closer to self dependence.

The EPA often works on regulations that are dreamed up by bureaucrats rather than actual laws. As I've said before, by their regs., large portions of NY and NJ could now be classified as wetlands, restricting their redevelopment.
As a hunter and outdoorsman, you obviously benefit from practices which will drive your quarry out of it's natural environment, and into your constructed environment. Much like the people who complain about the deer eating the newly planted rhododendrons in their front yards, and the car struck dead deer littering the roadsides, you just don't seem to understand..... The deer aren't overpopulated, and invading your space..... People are developing the deer's space, so they are adapting to the new environment (Not very well though).
Restricting development of wetlands may disrupt your plans to get rich by dumping old coal ash and construction debris into a tidal marsh and building an industrial park, but it may also save your life.....

Arizona Bay
11-05-2012, 09:50 AM
The idea that the earth is perfect as it is now, and should never change from its present state is ridiculous... To say that it should stay as it is now goes against nature.

To try and fix in place, through development, a naturally moving, dynamic system (like a barrier island, dunes, or a wet land etc) goes against nature. It's not about keeping tings as they are, it's about recognising that things do change, and everything is interrelated. We need to work with systems, rather than against them.


The EPA often works on regulations that are dreamed up by bureaucrats rather than actual laws. As I've said before, by their regs., large portions of NY and NJ could now be classified as wetlands, restricting their redevelopment.

As they are, nature just showed us this, again. The question is in finding a balance that works.

The EPA is also fighting against powerful groups that feel their should be no regulation at all. So much of the time the regs. are so muddled and compromised, that they are unenforcable or useless. So we end up following the 'something is better than nothing' route.

LeeG
11-05-2012, 09:57 AM
As a hunter and outdoorsman, conservation is what I practice. However, I disagree with much of the environmentalist's agenda. The idea that the earth is perfect as it is now, and should never change from its present state is ridiculous. There were times when the earth was warmer and colder than it is now. To say that it should stay as it is now goes against nature.

Drilling in the Gulf, Alaska, and building the Keystone pipeline are all opposed by the environmentalists, but should be exploited, in my opinion, to spur the economy and bring us closer to self dependence.

The EPA often works on regulations that are dreamed up by bureaucrats rather than actual laws. As I've said before, by their regs., large portions of NY and NJ could now be classified as wetlands, restricting their redevelopment.

Quite a straw man you got going there wrt "envronmentalists" world view.
Sure the biosphere goes through changes, you could decide to not use your plumbing and just crap in the spare bedroom and that would bring natural changes to your environment.

"self dependence" wrt to oil is as unrealistic as you making your own guns, gun powder and electronics from the resources on your property. Maybe if half the country gave up car use it might be doable.

Gerarddm
11-05-2012, 10:34 AM
Mdh clearly is clueless. In the whole history of the planet, of all the humans who have ever lived, only 12 people have ever escaped the gravity well to walk on the Moon, and they had to return.

That means we are all planetary prisoners, in a closed system. If you can, try to understand the implications of that. We are ALL de facto environmentalists, boyo.

Mdh a conservationist? Hah. If he/she plumped for renewables and working within nature's laws instead of trying to run roughshod over them, the world would be a better place.

Osborne Russell
11-05-2012, 11:47 AM
As a hunter and outdoorsman, conservation is what I practice. However, I disagree with much of the environmentalist's agenda. The idea that the earth is perfect as it is now, and should never change from its present state is ridiculous. There were times when the earth was warmer and colder than it is now. To say that it should stay as it is now goes against nature.

If you were just a bit more avid you could bone up on dynamic balance in ecosystems. That's what regulated hunting is all about, ja? So what if we kill off all the game? Things change, get real.


Drilling in the Gulf, Alaska, and building the Keystone pipeline are all opposed by the environmentalists, but should be exploited, in my opinion, to spur the economy and bring us closer to self dependence.

If a junkie finds a pound of heroin in a tree stump and quits buying dope on the street, is he still a junkie? Has he acheived heroin independence?


As I've said before, by their regs., large portions of NY and NJ could now be classified as wetlands, restricting their redevelopment.

Why would that be a bad thing?

Peerie Maa
11-05-2012, 12:33 PM
The EPA often works on regulations that are dreamed up by bureaucrats rather than actual laws. As I've said before, by their regs., large portions of NY and NJ could now be classified as wetlands, restricting their redevelopment.


The destruction of wetlands was what made the effects of Hurricane Katrina (and every other hurricane in the region) far more destructive than they might have been. Wetlands are critically important.



Restricting development of wetlands may disrupt your plans to get rich by dumping old coal ash and construction debris into a tidal marsh and building an industrial park, but it may also save your life.....

The UK is returning drained farmland to wetlands so as to protect towns and cities built on estuary land.
http://rsta.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/360/1796/1477.full.pdf

wardd
11-05-2012, 01:11 PM
I describe you as a non-thinking troglodyte. Doesn't that make it so?

but you'd probably be right

mdh
11-06-2012, 02:44 PM
The destruction of wetlands was what made the effects of Hurricane Katrina (and every other hurricane in the region) far more destructive than they might have been. Wetlands are critically important.

Destruction of wetlands by a hurricane? How do you figure that? And what's it got to do with Progressive but really regressive programs like the war on poverty, the war on drugs, and planned parenthood and its war on blacks?

David G
11-06-2012, 04:29 PM
OK... another hopeless, ignorant soul finds a home on the Ignore List <sigh>

I commend those of you who have the patience to engage... and try to shine some light into the darkness.

LeeG
11-06-2012, 04:53 PM
"self dependence"


No more imported olive oil for you.

mdh
11-06-2012, 05:08 PM
"self dependence"


No more imported olive oil for you.

I think my truck will run on olive oil, but it'd probably just make me hungry.

PeterSibley
11-06-2012, 05:19 PM
Another little clue to understanding America.

McMike
11-06-2012, 05:21 PM
Another little clue to understanding America.

Uuuuggg. I hate the fact that I'm lumped in with these ignoramuses but I understand why.

PeterSibley
11-06-2012, 05:46 PM
Sorry, but you're all in the pot together .

leikec
11-06-2012, 05:48 PM
Sorry, but you're all in the pot together .

Try not to skim the grease off the top and mistake it for the stew....

Jeff C

PeterSibley
11-06-2012, 05:52 PM
We're talking a close election here,that's not to say that the majority of Republicans as stupid... which would be stupid. But there seem to be some pretty obvious fallacies floating on top.

mdh
11-06-2012, 06:20 PM
Let this guy explain some of it to you:

http://freedomoutpost.com/2012/09/bishop-e-w-jackson-message-to-black-christians-exodus-now/

Garret
11-06-2012, 06:33 PM
Destruction of wetlands by a hurricane? How do you figure that?

No one who's ever looked into the science has claimed that - not has anyone here. Wetlands are nature's buffers. They protect from flooding, hurricanes & all sorts of things. They are also the major breeding ground for all sorts of critters that are eaten by critters you hunt/fish.

Reading a biased website or 2 does not educate you. You have to learn the big picture & then study the parts.

Garret
11-06-2012, 06:36 PM
Let this guy explain some of it to you:

http://freedomoutpost.com/2012/09/bishop-e-w-jackson-message-to-black-christians-exodus-now/

First thing wrong on that site? The Declaration of Independence was not signed on July 4th. The site goes downhill from there.

mdh
11-06-2012, 06:44 PM
No one who's ever looked into the science has claimed that - not has anyone here. Wetlands are nature's buffers. They protect from flooding, hurricanes & all sorts of things. They are also the major breeding ground for all sorts of critters that are eaten by critters you hunt/fish.

Reading a biased website or 2 does not educate you. You have to learn the big picture & then study the parts.

It's not me that needs a picture in order to understand what's going on.

Durnik
11-06-2012, 07:42 PM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by mdh http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=3586527#post3586527)

Let this guy explain some of it to you:

http://freedomoutpost.com/2012/09/bi...ns-exodus-now/ (http://freedomoutpost.com/2012/09/bishop-e-w-jackson-message-to-black-christians-exodus-now/)




First thing wrong on that site? The Declaration of Independence was not signed on July 4th. The site goes downhill from there.


It's not me that needs a picture in order to understand what's going on.

YCMTSU!

enjoy
bobby

Garret
11-06-2012, 07:53 PM
YCMTSU!

enjoy
bobby

Good for a laugh, eh? Happy to help provide the opportunity!

Durnik
11-06-2012, 09:36 PM
Good for a laugh, eh? Happy to help provide the opportunity!

& I thank you!

tho it's purely a shame the possibility existed.

enjoy
bobby

Garret
11-06-2012, 10:42 PM
& I thank you!

tho it's purely a shame the possibility existed.

enjoy
bobby

A friend of mine puts it this way: "I've got no problem with ignorance. It's when they choose to stay that way I start having issues."

Durnik
11-06-2012, 10:46 PM
>It's when they choose to stay that way I start having issues."

I hear you - That's the _wrong_ choice..

enjoy
bobby