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Lew Barrett
10-20-2012, 12:04 AM
To do the research. What is the most efficient electric space heater (type or model) to warm a 1500 cubic foot space? Typical garage, it is insulated, fiberglass bats.

StevenBauer
10-20-2012, 12:44 AM
Take a look here: http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/category_heaters-stoves-fireplaces+electric+electric-garage-industrial-heaters

I think electricity is significantly cheaper where you live. By us, nobody heats with electric.


Steven

Lew Barrett
10-20-2012, 12:59 AM
I've no other realistic choice. I just need to raise the temps a bit to keep it dry; not for living, more for keeping tools and stuff rust free. It's a storage shed now. Buying an electric heater is easy. Buying the right one is a bit unclear to me. I need to get the 2000 cf from 45 degrees to 60 degrees (F) and keep stuff from getting fuzzy.

Paul Girouard
10-20-2012, 12:59 AM
Look into these Lew:

http://www.pro-products.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=55&Itemid=59

Electric panels that can hang from a ceiling a wall , tuck under a desk they come from 2'x3' up to 4'x8' , we've used them on a few remodels , they work pretty well , the only complaints we had about them is if you screw them to tight to the wall / ceiling they click as they expand and contract if they hang free or loosely from the screws they don't click.

They give a nice even heat I have a number out in my truck of the local guy up here but I'm sure you can find twice as many vendors down in your neck of the woods.

If you over head doors in the way maybe you have some wall space?? Or maybe you only plan on heating it when the doors closed and your working in the garage? Then the door wouldn't be a issue right?

Paul Girouard
10-20-2012, 01:01 AM
I've no other realistic choice. I just need to raise the temps a bit to keep it dry; not for living, more for keeping tools and stuff rust free. It's a storage shed now.


Small gas fire place or stove?? They make a corner unit that's pretty neat , easy to install. You have gas I'd think , to much work to pipe it to the garage?

Gerarddm
10-20-2012, 01:37 AM
Whatever you do, don 't use a propane heater:

It is bloody expensive
Propane go boom

A King Air wall heater or two would do it; don't use Cadet. Issue is, how many amps do you have to work with?

skipper68
10-20-2012, 02:06 AM
No quote AGAIN. {I've no other realistic choice. I just need to raise the temps a bit to keep it dry; not for living, more for keeping tools and stuff rust free. It's a storage shed now. Buying an electric heater is easy. Buying the right one is a bit unclear to me. I need to get the 2000 cf from 45 degrees to 60 degrees (F) and keep stuff from getting fuzzy.} Buy Prolong spray and spray them.
It works on all metal. I have a Promo code for 25% off and free shipping.
We sprayed it in a open motor our friend foiled with ethanol. Replaced the bent rods, and it was butter the whole trip with crap gas.
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Product Overview

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Lubricates and protects metal to reduce friction and wear
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Just point and spray for broad coverage, or use the accompanying durable "straw" for close, precision application. The 4 and 12 oz.
http://www.prolong.com/A_SPL100spray.html

BrianW
10-20-2012, 02:30 AM
I'm pretty sure that due to where Lew lives, the only corrosion preventative compound he can use is Boeshield T-9 .

seanz
10-20-2012, 03:10 AM
The wall panels recommended by M. Girouard are OK (reportedly) but are more for bring a room up to a comfortable temp in a heated house if that room is a bit cold.

I'd try a electric oil column heater.....low risk of fire and they usually have a timer. Most efficient? Wouldn't know....I like them because they're quiet.

Paul Pless
10-20-2012, 04:13 AM
I just need to raise the temps a bit to keep it dry. . .Pampering the new bike?

Todd D
10-20-2012, 09:04 AM
I heat my shop (12x16x8) with a 1,000 watt portable, 110VAC, baseboard heater. It easily gets the shop above 60F even when it is below zero outside. Most of the time I set it to about 250-300 watts to keep the shop around 60-65F.

oldsub86
10-20-2012, 09:33 AM
https://www.google.ca/search?q=garage+electric+heater&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

Randy

Paul Girouard
10-20-2012, 09:52 AM
The wall panels recommended by M. Girouard are OK (reportedly) but are more for bring a room up to a comfortable temp in a heated house if that room is a bit cold.

I'd try a electric oil column heater.....low risk of fire and they usually have a timer. Most efficient? Wouldn't know....I like them because they're quiet.


I've built two new houses that are heated by radiant heat panels , hung from the ceiling , what we call "zone" heat around here , each room has it's own T-stat. They can be used as you state , but they also can be stand alone heating system at least here in the PNW.

Hwyl
10-20-2012, 09:56 AM
You might want to check with your electricity supplier, to see if they can offer an "Off Peak" service at a lower rate. (usually half price)


Then you have a couple of options, you can buy dedicated storage heaters, that heat up in off peak hours (overnight) and release their heat during the day.

Or just choose one of the solutions above, have it hooked into the off peak system and warm it up at night and live with it during the day, or overiide the system if you need heat during the day.

In college,which was a long time ago, I lived in a house with storage heaters, in those days they were not goo for living purposes, they were swelteringly hot at night and had lost their reserve of heat by the evening, when you really needed them

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-20-2012, 10:11 AM
Gareths point about off peak charging schemes and storage systems is spot on.

There is very little difference in efficiency between different types of heater - almost all will turn one joule of electrical energy into one joule of heat.


The most efficient systems are based on heat pumps water to air, ground to air or air to air - though Air to Air in a on a cold damp day can become spectacularly ineffective as the outdoor unit ices up.

George Jung
10-20-2012, 10:11 AM
Garage insulated? From your OP, seemingly you want to heat it to 'protect the tools'? I'd think you'd need humidity control, as well. Will you be working out in the garage alot?
AFA efficiency - I wouldn't think the amount of electricity would vary - it's still energy/converted to heat - but 'how long it's on' would vary.

If yer worried about the new bike, send it - I'll store it for ya!

Bruce Taylor
10-20-2012, 10:15 AM
I'm pretty sure that due to where Lew lives, the only corrosion preventative compound he can use is Boeshield T-9 .

I've started using that in my shed-shop. I hope it works as advertised.

Lew Barrett
10-20-2012, 11:40 AM
Rust Never Sleeps.

I never conceived the garage as being used the way I am doing now. Running natural gas to that side of the building is out; way too invasive and difficult at this point. I wouldn't consider propane heat; puts water in the air and blows a lot of air around anyway, and plumbing the garage for house heat is out, see point one.

I think Doug said it first (and the rest of you more or less confirmed) that the conversion efficiency of most of these devices is about the same, which is really the dope I was after. I have a fair bit of experience with oil filled radiators. I like them on boats as there's not much danger of combustion. My experience is that disc heaters are faster to heat up a given space but I think the least efficient (anecdotal) and this space will be kept at more or less constant temperature anyway. If indeed the differences in conversion are minimal, I think an oil filled device will be the easiest and most efficacious immediate solution and take up the least floor space.

PAUL G: I like your suggestion regarding Pro heat's panels and will see if they are available here. Quick google shows some on ebay (not too expensive either) but no local supplier. There is sure to be one....I'll contact them next week. Baseboard heat isn't out of the question, but in my case placement is likely less flexible.

And yes, Paul (the other Paul!) having seen how well ten years of storage in a heated warehouse did by the Aprilia, it was in my head that something equally or more Italian as a Ducati would benefit from the same treatment, not to mention the saws, drill press, and hand tools, which always seem to get the worst of it.

Collectible bikes stored in the "old" garage (I rebuilt that ten years ago and dried it up but failed to heat it (it was really no easier then than now) corroded away before my eyes and created great angst, forcing the sale of some, and the relocation of others to less convenient locales.
Keeping the temps enough above dew points is the trick. I can work in cold down to say, 55F but obviously, that's not ideal either. If I can provide a steady amount of consistent heat, I think I will have accomplished my goal. A good thermostat is all the timer it needs.

I'll use my oil filled radiator for now while exploring the pro heat (and maybe a baseboard) solution. Thanks everyone.

the_gr8t_waldo
10-20-2012, 12:24 PM
go to home despot and get a wall mounted 240volt heater. it'll bring the rooms temp fast but not as quickly as like gas fired heaters, and is fine at maintaining temps below work comfort range.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-20-2012, 12:29 PM
How effective is a de-humidifier in a watt for watt comparison????

Canoeyawl
10-20-2012, 12:47 PM
I have a little wall mounted propane heater in my shop that does not let any combustion gas into the shop. I'm much to worried about evaporating thinners and other volitile compounds like drying lacquer etc. It both draws combustion air and vents to the outside.
WW Graingers - cheap
I have a completely different solution to preserve a couple of vintage motorcycles though.

Stiletto
10-20-2012, 05:02 PM
In the original post Lew asks for efficiency in a heater. If one is interested in efficiency it is also very important to minimise any potential areas of heat loss, which in an insulated building, is usually around doors and windows.

In a workshop I would bet that there is a large heat loss through the main door. This would need to be addressed.

I agree with the others that panel heaters are probably the most economical to purchase and run, with the added suggestion that a fan heater of sufficient capacity be used to quickly bring the space up to a comfortable temperature for when one is going to be working there.

Heat pumps are popular here because they apparently offer the most heat for a given amount of electricity used, and can be used to cool in summer, but they have a relatively high capital cost and may be less efficient in a snowy winter.

Does it snow where you are Lew?

seanz
10-20-2012, 05:17 PM
You might want to check with your electricity supplier, to see if they can offer an "Off Peak" service at a lower rate. (usually half price)


Then you have a couple of options, you can buy dedicated storage heaters, that heat up in off peak hours (overnight) and release their heat during the day.

Or just choose one of the solutions above, have it hooked into the off peak system and warm it up at night and live with it during the day, or overiide the system if you need heat during the day.

In college,which was a long time ago, I lived in a house with storage heaters, in those days they were not goo for living purposes, they were swelteringly hot at night and had lost their reserve of heat by the evening, when you really needed them

A very good idea, providing that there is such a thing as "off-peak" in Washington state. We have a night-store heater here, and I like it a lot. Helps keep the house 2 degrees above dank.

RichKrough
10-20-2012, 05:27 PM
I installed this one on a indoor pool addition I did for a customer. About twice the volume as your garage works very well. Needs a 30 amp circuit. BTW it is cheaper on Amazon.com and includes free shipping
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200316428_200316428

http://www.northerntool.com/images/product/images/174040_lg.jpg

seanz
10-20-2012, 05:35 PM
7500 watt? Yeah, that'd need a decent fuse. And, I know this is getting away from heaters and into the arcane (for me) realm of elektrickery......but the amps drawn by that unit are stated as 31.3.
And it's 240 volt, which I believe complicates things slightly in the Land of the Free at One Twenty. ;)

Garret
10-20-2012, 06:12 PM
7500 watt? Yeah, that'd need a decent fuse. And, I know this is getting away from heaters and into the arcane (for me) realm of elektrickery......but the amps drawn by that unit are stated as 31.3.
And it's 240 volt, which I believe complicates things slightly in the Land of the Free at One Twenty. ;)

We have both here. Heavy draw appliances (electric dryers & stoves for example) run on 240 while most stuff is 120. Our building drops (the wire from the pole to the house) come in as 2 hots & one neutral. Each hot is 120 - so you combine them & get 240 - but only on appliances that are set up for it. Note that you have 2 wire 240 - one hot & one neutral - different setup entirely. My count of wires does not include the ground - though the US/Canada drop is usually 3 wire & ground is supplied by a wire going to a copper rod driven into the soil.

Chip-skiff
10-20-2012, 07:01 PM
For garages and shops, ceiling-mount quartz radiant heaters are a good choice, especially if you have a concrete slab floor (dark colored).

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/CMS/uploadedImages/Images/ProductGuide/021150116_1_th.jpg

I've got three of these, one in the shop, mounted so it rotates. I can aim it at the workbench or whatever I'm working on. At times I wear a ball-cap since my head gets too hot. I installed one in the basement on a stand, aimed at my writing table, with a reflective screen opposite. Sitting here with an air temp of 52°F, I'm quite comfortable with only one tube glowing. The third is high on a wall over my partner's work desk. They cost around $50. Some have built-in lights, which are on when the heat's on.

Since radiant heat warms objects rather than air, it's good for providing immediate warmth without having to heat all the air in a space. The objects then warm the air around them. For the greenhouse, I took apart a quartz radiant parasol heater and mounted the 500w elements to keep the foliage warm and shine on the passive heatsink tanks.

http://external.ak.fbcdn.net/safe_image.php?d=AQDvat7EZN8YrTcN&url=http%3A%2F%2Fecx.images-amazon.com%2Fimages%2FI%2F418s%252B-kAA6L.jpg


None of these heaters have thermostats, so I bought an industrial hanging thermostat for the greenhouse to control the radiant heat.

Propane heaters emit water vapor, so they're not good for drying out a room. If you use wall-mounted heaters, a ceiling fan might be good.

Lew Barrett
10-20-2012, 07:23 PM
Does it snow where you are Lew?

More so recently. We are not continental in our extremes, but you can count on frequent temperatures near 0C and it's always wet.



And it's 240 volt, which I believe complicates things slightly in the Land of the Free at One Twenty. ;)

Actually, I have 30A, 220V available there for the machine tools, but I don't need think I need a lot of capacity, as it's well insulated. Put that in when I built the garage, but didn't consider heating it at the time. Ah well.

The need is for constant heat in winter to hold to perhaps 60 F. I can work in 62-64F, a bit more would be nice but getting it warm (enough) for occasional use isn't the issue, rather keeping it efficiently at a temperature that reduces oxidation. I'm so used to working in the cold and damp that 64 sounds hot.

Shall we say "warm enough to allow varnish to kick off?" :D

Rick: I have Reznors at my building downtown in the back shop (rented out now) but the ceiling height their is great whereas in my garage it is only 96".


How effective is a de-humidifier in a watt for watt comparison????
In combination with a bit of heat, could be effective. If you consider your own winter weather, it's not too dissimilar to ours, but we can get some wicked, wicked storms rolling through, and every year or two........

The walls are insulated to R22, ceiling to R32, which is fine and meets the basic Seattle codes for interior spaces. The garage door is new and tight, not much I can do about that now anyway, but the glass area, which is minimal, is double pane and there are no other penetrations. The place will hold heat well enough.

I think I see that keeping it simple is probably the most economical, and I still like the panel suggestion, just unclear where to source it.

Lew Barrett
10-20-2012, 07:51 PM
I have a completely different solution to preserve a couple of vintage motorcycles though.

What's that? When I was single I kept bikes in my entry hall and living room. That is not a viable solution anymore much as I believe a 500cc Manx Norton is a work of Industrial Art....if I had a 500cc Manx Norton....or a Bonnie, or Velo Thruxton, which is what I'd like.

At the moment I have the cheapo DeLonghi oil filled rad down there pumping away until I solve this. Fired it up today.

Mad Scientist
10-20-2012, 08:01 PM
If the garage has a peaked roof, a ceiling fan might be something to consider - to keep the warm air down where you need it.

Tom

seanz
10-20-2012, 08:06 PM
I think I see that keeping it simple is probably the most economical, and I still like the panel suggestion, just unclear where to source it.

Home Depot? (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/econo-heat-400-watt-wall-panel-convection-heater-603.html#.UINKcIZtn6N)

wharf rat
10-20-2012, 08:08 PM
To do the research. What is the most efficient electric space heater (type or model) to warm a 1500 cubic foot space? Typical garage, it is insulated, fiberglass bats.

Lew, try heatershop.com . They have a btu calculator and just about every type of heater known to exist with good descriptions. You can order from them but you will get enough info to buy locally as well.

Lew Barrett
10-20-2012, 08:11 PM
Home Depot? (http://www.homedepot.com/buy/econo-heat-400-watt-wall-panel-convection-heater-603.html#.UINKcIZtn6N)

:D :D

Lew Barrett
10-20-2012, 08:11 PM
If the garage has a peaked roof, a ceiling fan might be something to consider - to keep the warm air down where you need it.

Tom

Flat roof. Deck on top. Really nice garage, actually....not quite a two car, but you'd have to park them nose to tail. Car and a couple of bikes? No problem. I put all the machine tools on wheels and push them around, have a bench in the corner, and it leaves just enough space for a bike or two. Cars can live outside.

Paul Girouard
10-20-2012, 08:58 PM
I think I see that keeping it simple is probably the most economical, and I still like the panel suggestion, just unclear where to source it.



I'll track down the guy we get them from up here, I'm sure he'd sell to you. The HD ones are to small for the space you want to heat. If a 110 one will work for you , Jim my guy will know what you need, they can be fitted with a plug and you might be able to plug it into your over head door outlet , unless it's a 15 AMP circuit breaker. It will need to be, minimum, 20 AMP breaker , if not a 20amp stand alone / dedicated circuit.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-21-2012, 03:07 AM
Oxidation is not "held at bay" by higher temperatures - in fact like most chemical reactions, if you raise the temperature by 10 degrees C, the reaction rate doubles (rough estimate).

Raising the temperature of a fixed body of air will drop the Relative Humidity - but that is no assurance that the rusting process will stop..... It's always trickier than you thought.


If I owned a Manx it would be in the lounge.

Paul Girouard
10-21-2012, 11:08 AM
Lew here's our guy up here , I'm sure he can help you out.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Island-Green-Heating/81792939612

Mike
Call mobile: 360-420-6549 (tel:3604206549)
Island Green Heating:

Lew Barrett
10-21-2012, 12:08 PM
Oxidation is not "held at bay" by higher temperatures - in fact like most chemical reactions, if you raise the temperature by 10 degrees C, the reaction rate doubles (rough estimate).

Raising the temperature of a fixed body of air will drop the Relative Humidity - but that is no assurance that the rusting process will stop..... It's always trickier than you thought.


If I owned a Manx it would be in the lounge.

I have found that by the simple expedient of warming it, the machines don't rust or oxidize. We can argue the point, but it's not a dirt floor deal. Once the dew point is raised, it pretty much solves the issue in this space but I take your point about a dehumidifier seriously.

A Manx would be fine but I'd just as soon a road ready Velocette (Venom) Thruxton, 1965 or so and I would ride it on sunny days. I've wanted one since they were new and missed my chance when I had it. I'd have no trouble keeping it in my living room as a matter of esthetics, but it could be a challenge getting it in and out of there.

George Jung
10-21-2012, 12:23 PM
Yup - tough to get the bike in the livingroom when you're pushing 'in' and swmbo is pushing 'out'.

We feel yer pain.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-21-2012, 01:17 PM
......
A Manx would be fine but I'd just as soon a road ready Velocette (Venom) Thruxton, 1965 or so and I would ride it on sunny days. I've wanted one since they were new and missed my chance when I had it. I'd have no trouble keeping it in my living room as a matter of esthetics, but it could be a challenge getting it in and out of there.

Bob Malin - A friend of my dad's has a 66 in Clubman trim (no lights) and has owned it from new - I've had the top end apart once to check the condition of the valves (fine) but was astonished to meet hairpin valve springs in a post 1960 machine.

If you're buying one check that the engine number starts "VMT" and not just "VM".

Lew Barrett
10-22-2012, 10:33 AM
Bob Malin - A friend of my dad's has a 66 in Clubman trim (no lights) and has owned it from new - I've had the top end apart once to check the condition of the valves (fine) but was astonished to meet hairpin valve springs in a post 1960 machine.

If you're buying one check that the engine number starts "VMT" and not just "VM".

Yes, an arresting machine age anachronism. The cottage industry in converting Venoms into Thruxtons is certainly more an English tradition than American, but you have the available stock. There were so few Velos of any type brought here. I had the distinction of working for the last Velocette "dealer" in New York (we only had one on the floor). It was a new Thruxton and it sat in the showroom for a year with barely any interest from customers but with good respect from those of us who worked there. From the outside, it looked modern to me apart from the Brooklands style silencer (the rear damper adjustments were a novelty!) and the compression relief lever. I thought at the time I'd bin the silencer if I owned it which of course would have been a big mistake! I never came remotely close to having the chance at the time. Now, too late. I can't recall if it had manual timing adjustment but I seem to recollect that that the other bar mounted lever was for the choke.
Despite it's appearance as a hard start, it would fire on the first or second kick as long as you employed the compression relief, which I taught myself how to on that very machine. It was very pretty in gray with (blue?) pinstripes and clubman bars. One of the shop mechanics eventually traded for it straight across from the owner using an R50/2 as currency. Both bikes would be desirable today, but I'd sooner the Velo and I thought even then he'd done a good trade for himself.

That was the first and last Thruxton I've personally seen in this country.

None have been up for private sale that I can recall seeing although to be honest, I don't follow the classic bike auctions closely. That early exposure made me a fan for life though.