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Nanoose
10-13-2012, 07:58 PM
I don't get how he tested negative at the races but now there's all these accusations, and even medal stripping.

What say ye?

ewan
10-13-2012, 08:29 PM
I don't get how he tested negative at the races but now there's all these accusations, and even medal stripping.

What say ye?

Have you read any of the info? try having a read at "the clinic" it's a anti-drug cheat section on a cycling forum.. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20

One technique used was to take saline drips before tests to thin out the blood to acceptable levels. Armstrong's team carried around medical machinery to analyse their blood to check they were below the thresholds before tests were done..

Here's a fun one, I supported Lance until... http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=18838

Gerarddm
10-13-2012, 09:24 PM
The massuese testimony against Armstrong felt pretty solid.

devout
10-14-2012, 06:29 AM
Just too many fingers pointing at him. Guilty, me thinks. I do have some sympathy for him, though, he played dirty in a dirty game. He has lost just about everything that he has achieved, and that must sting a little.

skuthorp
10-14-2012, 07:55 AM
Professional bike racing has probably been drug infested since the 1950's. The Russians were shooting their athletes full of stuff as early as the 1956 games. I don't imagine bike racing was immune.
OTOH, they are professionals, it's their job, their living. The Tour is, especially recently, entertainment. Does your work become any less valuable because you take a pill or too to keep up the pace? Is your favourite performers work any less entertaining because they are somewhat enhanced?

LeeG
10-14-2012, 08:23 AM
The races were still fun to watch. The dopers still had to train to get to this level. It's amazing that Lance avoided detection that long.
I sure hope Cavendish is clean. I wonder what Eddy Mercx used in his day.

Chris Woodward
10-14-2012, 08:39 AM
Lance won against a level playing field. The top twenty something racers were all doping and Armstrong still beat them fairly. Then he beat the testing angencies, so he is a two time champion. In a sport where all the top riders had the same advantages, he came out in first place. Give him his due, let him keep the medals.

Captain Intrepid
10-14-2012, 09:46 AM
Lance won against a level playing field. The top twenty something racers were all doping and Armstrong still beat them fairly. Then he beat the testing angencies, so he is a two time champion. In a sport where all the top riders had the same advantages, he came out in first place. Give him his due, let him keep the medals.

What about rider number 21, who wasn't doping and wasn't an lying cheating hypocrite who pressured other athletes to cheat as well? I guess he wasn't man enough to betray the trust of his team, his country and his sport and he deserved to remain in the shadows though he might try till his heart burst in his chest?

Paul Pless
10-14-2012, 10:00 AM
What about rider number 21, who wasn't doping and wasn't an lying cheating hypocrite who pressured other athletes to cheat as well? I guess he wasn't man enough to betray the trust of his team, his country and his sport and he deserved to remain in the shadows though he might try till his heart burst in his chest?

I'm with you dude. is that era over?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTb5Jue0Yxg

Chris Woodward
10-14-2012, 10:36 AM
What about rider number 21, who wasn't doping and wasn't an lying cheating hypocrite who pressured other athletes to cheat as well? I guess he wasn't man enough to betray the trust of his team, his country and his sport and he deserved to remain in the shadows though he might try till his heart burst in his chest?

I'm not speaking to his moral character, but about his physical abilities

Ted Hoppe
10-14-2012, 10:58 AM
I'm with you dude. is that era over?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTb5Jue0Yxg

Funny! It is all about the roll!

Captain Intrepid
10-14-2012, 11:05 AM
Who knows if Lance would have been the best physically and mentally had no one cheated. Since he did, we'll never find out, and he may as well have stayed at home. All he's proven is he's better at being a cheater than anyone else. That ain't an accomplishment to be proud of.

Chris Woodward
10-14-2012, 11:33 AM
Actually I think that Lance Armstrong is a sleazebag. But he was up against riders that had the same chemically enhanced advantages. Were his victories the result of better chemicals? We won't ever know, you're right about that. But he still had to ride the bike.
Much like the home run race between Mark Mcguire and Sammy Sosa. Both were juiced, but McGuire hit more than Sosa. It was a level playing field- for that time and place. That should not be compared to Roger Maris's record. Nor should Barry Bond be compared with Babe Ruth.(although we don't know what was in those hot dogs) And we shouldn't compare Armstrong with Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault or LaMonde. But in his time, place, and circumstances, he won those races on a level playing field.

Captain Intrepid
10-14-2012, 11:50 AM
I just can't see it being called a level playing field when there were people racing against who tried to follow the rules. It was only level for the cheaters.

Ted Hoppe
10-14-2012, 11:54 AM
Interestingly - Greg Lemond did say Lance was cheating at the first win. He was shouted down as a party pooper adding "his time" was over . Like Barry Bonds and the SF Giants or Sammy Sosa in Chicago - the corporate interests don't care about level playing fields with normal human potential - they enjoyed a marketing story which made money for all involved regardless of health of the athelete or aftermath.

jonboy
10-14-2012, 01:23 PM
you want a level playing field how about having no drug control, that is, every one can every access to every available drug / dope/ performance enhancer/ pain reliever....

most sporting acheivement is measured by payroll to the TV companies, which is why Ronldo/Rooney et al get more money a week than I will in twenty years.

also, no one complains when some diva shoots a dose of epaphrine and bangs out an aria to make you cry, or townsend jagger clapton reid is so stoned to perform at their best it would break every law there is....

a bit of ramble here, but basically if 'cheating' is tolerated in poker(bluffing) or politics, 'I used to support the rights of women but I have changed my mind to get more votes etc etc,, where are everyone's morals...

let 'em all cheat, ( or get given better running spikes, carbon fibre fishing rods, bike frames, pole vault poles...) and stop kvetching

maybe the honest and diligent will rise to the surface, but so does s**t and cream.

LeeG
10-14-2012, 01:56 PM
I still think most of what got Armstrong to the podium was his training, savvy and great team. The extras gave him an edge and he probably wouldn't have had such a long winning streak but he still would have dominated. The wisdom to know when to risk it or hold back doesn't come from juice. Lots of very strong guys get taken out by injury, not getting injured is important.

McMike
10-14-2012, 02:56 PM
I think its sad that some of you guys are basically saying to get over it. It's a testament to the "at all cost" mentality that is dragging society down. Hey, your rules aren't my rules. Bloody sad, says somthing about those who just roll over and accept it.

Armstrong is a loser because he cheated, nothing else matters.

Ted Hoppe
10-14-2012, 03:10 PM
Armstrong is a loser because he cheated, nothing else matters.

Winning is everything. Winners get paid. Winners fight on. Cheat on and make the rules. If winners get caught they have already won and cashed the check.
Does anyone have advice as to how do I teach my 12 year old to become a winner as playing by the rules never pays off.

skuthorp
10-14-2012, 03:14 PM
I think its sad that some of you guys are basically saying to get over it. It's a testament to the "at all cost" mentality that is dragging society down. Hey, your rules aren't my rules. Bloody sad, says somthing about those who just roll over and accept it.

Armstrong is a loser because he cheated, nothing else matters.
I hear what you say and agree in principle, but that's the way our society is going, especially in politics. If our national leaders, bankers and industry think it OK to cheat and lie to win, then why not professional game playing and in this case bike racing. I'm with jonboy in #16.

McMike
10-14-2012, 03:42 PM
To Ted. Tell him to not play their games.

Ted Hoppe
10-14-2012, 04:30 PM
the games that are fixed in our society are the ones that matter most. They are the ones that pay. No one ever really wins playing solitaire.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_12oyIfeYqnk/TQUbfBmYARI/AAAAAAAABfk/xPslFWQ89Rw/s1600/reindeer+games.jpg

McMike
10-14-2012, 04:41 PM
I'm not sayin I've not broken rules in my time but I'm mostly honest. I'm not rich but if being rich means that I have to cheat then you can have it. I've never screwed over anyone, that's a fact.

skuthorp
10-14-2012, 05:47 PM
Tell that to the wall street bankers McMike, as they retire on the taxpayer bailouts.

Rum_Pirate
10-14-2012, 05:55 PM
Lance won against a level playing field. The top twenty something racers were all doping and Armstrong still beat them fairly. Then he beat the testing angencies, so he is a two time champion. In a sport where all the top riders had the same advantages, he came out in first place. Give him his due, let him keep the medals.
Tend to agree.

Rum_Pirate
10-14-2012, 06:00 PM
What about rider number 21, who wasn't doping and wasn't an lying cheating hypocrite who pressured other athletes to cheat as well? I guess he wasn't man enough to betray the trust of his team, his country and his sport and he deserved to remain in the shadows though he might try till his heart burst in his chest?
Is this known for certain?

McMike
10-14-2012, 06:31 PM
Tell that to the wall street bankers McMike, as they retire on the taxpayer bailouts.

So watcha sayin? You robbing people blind because Johnny Banker did?

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-15-2012, 12:57 AM
What say I? That Armstrong cheated and that he comes over as an unpleasant person.I feel sorry for all the American fans whom he has let down.