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Gerarddm
10-11-2012, 08:25 PM
I don't know about everybody else's opinion, but VP Biden is bringing it.

mariner2k
10-11-2012, 08:36 PM
Biden's taking him to the woodshed so far. Ryans just stump speeching.

Gerarddm
10-11-2012, 08:36 PM
Somehow Joe's mugging for the camera seems avuncular, whereas Al Gore's was irritating.

McMike
10-11-2012, 08:38 PM
Ryan is getting powned.

McMike
10-11-2012, 08:40 PM
If they had privatized Medicare and SS during the Bush years, just think of where the seniors be now.

McMike
10-11-2012, 08:42 PM
Uhhh, joe is smiling too much. The split screen format is not good for either candidate.

I think he's reacting in a very human way when one is confronted with compleat BS.

McMike
10-11-2012, 08:42 PM
Once upon a time, it was touching when candidates told a story about meeting commonfolk (and remembering their names.)

Now, it just comes off as completely contrived.

+1.

B_B
10-11-2012, 08:46 PM
Ryan is getting powned.
You're too young to spell that incorrectly, and too old to use it anyway. :D

McMike
10-11-2012, 08:48 PM
Looks like Biden is changing the tune to 1 million from 250,000 for the tax cuts to expire. I'd call that a compromise . . .

McMike
10-11-2012, 08:50 PM
You're too young to spell that incorrectly, and too old to use it anyway. :D

:d:D

Gerarddm
10-11-2012, 08:52 PM
Congressman Ryan is getting killed on this tax issue.

McMike
10-11-2012, 08:55 PM
The moderator is challenging the math.

Gerarddm
10-11-2012, 08:59 PM
It seems to me that Congressman Ryan didn't come out on top on the defense question either. Martha Raddatz isn't buying the happy talk.

Y Bar Ranch
10-11-2012, 09:01 PM
I'm in a bar in Nashville live blogging the steelers titans game

BrianW
10-11-2012, 09:01 PM
I'm watching Thursday Night Football this time.

It's
Pitt 10
Tenn 13

1:38 left in the first half

BrianW
10-11-2012, 09:02 PM
Cool, me and Y- are doing the same thing, but I'm at home.

Interception Titans!

Gerarddm
10-11-2012, 09:04 PM
The congressman is awfully wobbly on the 2014 Afghan pullout. He can't say credibly that Mr. Romney supports a 2014 date, then complain that saying that allows our enemies to wait us out.

Paul Pless
10-11-2012, 09:04 PM
I'm in a bar in Nashville lice blogging the steelers titans gameya gotta watch out for them Tennessee lice. . .

McMike
10-11-2012, 09:05 PM
Cool, me and Y- are doing the same thing, but I'm at home.

Interception Titans!

Start another thread about it then. If you guys don't like this thread, don't read it. Quit being rude.

Paul Pless
10-11-2012, 09:06 PM
Quit being rude.Dude, this is the bilge, thread drift rules. . .

BrianW
10-11-2012, 09:07 PM
Nice shovel pass Haselback to Johnson. 1st down near field goal range. 16 seconds left before the
half

McMike
10-11-2012, 09:08 PM
Dude, this is the bilge, thread drift rules. . .

I guess . . .

BrianW
10-11-2012, 09:09 PM
I do like this thread. Thought somebody might want a football update, that's all.

BrianW
10-11-2012, 09:10 PM
Okay Mike. Something cool happened, but now I'm done. ;)

Gerarddm
10-11-2012, 09:12 PM
I think VP Biden needs to dial it down a bit. He sounds angry at times. On the other hand, Mr. Ryan sounds pre-packaged.

StevenBauer
10-11-2012, 09:21 PM
I just turned on the tv. I've been listening on the radio while tiling the bathroom floor. Just going by sound without pictures Biden is kicking butt.

Gerarddm
10-11-2012, 09:28 PM
Nah, I can compartmentalize this. Mr. Ryan is on the short end of this stick on this one.

Garret
10-11-2012, 09:32 PM
Comment just heard here (while Ryan was closing): "Remember the hairline on the kid on the Munsters?"

Gerarddm
10-11-2012, 09:36 PM
Well, Chris Matthews on MSNBC is feeling better than after Obama's debate...

StevenBauer
10-11-2012, 09:37 PM
Ryan reminds me of a high school Vice Principal.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2012, 09:38 PM
Summarizing,,,,

Joe Biden just spoke from the heart.

Paul Ryan just delivered a prepared statement.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2012, 09:40 PM
Wolf Blitzer sez he thinks it was a draw.

LOL!

Chip-skiff
10-11-2012, 09:42 PM
I'm not getting the visuals, but I'm used to radio. Ryan is delivering his closing statement, which is a memorized setpiece. Biden's summation was more personable, if a bit too folksy for me.

Ryan has a nice, crisp way of speaking, but he needs to slow down: he sounds like the pipsqueak kid in class who's convinced of his own brilliance. To score on the %s and economic arguments, he needs to present a case, not just isolated numbers between talking points.

Biden is pretty full of himself. I don't really like him, but I do think he's far more knowledgeable and trustworthy.

I'd say it was close with a few points to Biden on style and straightforwardness.

Gerarddm
10-11-2012, 09:42 PM
I do think though that VP Biden should have made his closing statement directly to the camera as Congressman Ryan did.

Shang
10-11-2012, 09:42 PM
Biden

mariner2k
10-11-2012, 09:43 PM
Blitzer shows that you
CAN kiss two asses at once.

John How
10-11-2012, 09:44 PM
Wolf Blitzer sez he thinks it was a draw.

LOL!

The Biden must have won!!

Todd Bradshaw
10-11-2012, 09:45 PM
I never noticed how much Ryan looks like Pee Wee Herman. Distracted me all through the debate.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2012, 09:48 PM
I'm not getting the visuals, but I'm used to radio. Ryan is delivering his closing statement, which is a memorized setpiece. Biden's summation was more personableYep.

I don't care who scores the most style points. I Just think Ryan is wrong on most of the issues.

S/V Laura Ellen
10-11-2012, 09:50 PM
I missed watching the debate, but did see this tweet.

http://aylard.ca/sites/default/files/imagecache/600/debate.JPG

Did that accurately summarize the debate?

Chip-skiff
10-11-2012, 09:52 PM
Yep.

I don't care who scores the most style points. I Just think Ryan is wrong on most of the issues.

That goes without saying.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2012, 09:53 PM
You should have seen it.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2012, 09:59 PM
Q: What is worse? Another war in the middle east? Or a nuclear armed Iran?

A: Paul Ryan: A nuclear armed Iran.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2012, 10:00 PM
Numerous instances of inappropriate laughter...two instances of inexplicable rage at the moderator. Biden came off as emotionally unstable.

Ryan was weak and uninspiring.

The moderator was the clear winner of this one.
Finally.... hurray!

Biden only seems "unstable" to right-wingers. Middle America recognizes him as one of their own.

It is sort of like Dallas Cowboy fans vs. Pittsburgh Steelers fans.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2012, 10:07 PM
The U.S.A. possesses weapons of mass destruction. Imagine if someone decided to "preempt" us.

hanleyclifford
10-11-2012, 10:08 PM
Biden wins the debate; no doubt about it. The problem is the way he did it may leave people wondering what the other guy had to say. Ryan came across as the nerdy, defensive type. When people stop to think about the substance of the debate they will remember that Biden was the more mature presidential presence, though a little condescending, quick with the rejoinder and laugh. Ryan looked more like he belonged in an assistant professor's chair at some college.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2012, 10:12 PM
Paul Ryan came across as an eager, well-rehearsed, right-wingnut with a glowing smile.

Joe Biden came across as a knowledgable average guy who is looking out for the average American.

hanleyclifford
10-11-2012, 10:14 PM
As of now the RCP polling average has Romney in the lead by .7%. The next few days will tell if Biden had a polling impact.

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2012, 10:17 PM
Are you worried?

hanleyclifford
10-11-2012, 10:18 PM
Are you worried? No.

pipefitter
10-11-2012, 10:21 PM
I really wanted to hear what Biden had to say. His rudeness and the dork faced laughing on the side, really only perpetuates the image of the buffoon behind the numerous gaffes he is known for. I kept thinking. . .no wonder you have a hard time expressing yourself. I was over it by the halfway point.

I bet Biden listens to Rush Limbaugh.

hanleyclifford
10-11-2012, 10:24 PM
Too early to tell if this debate will move the numbers... But the lesson will not be lost on Obama. Dead right, Norm. But Romney is a lot more formidable than Ryan when it comes to stand up.

wardd
10-11-2012, 10:27 PM
Dead right, Norm. But Romney is a lot more formidable than Ryan when it comes to stand up.

quite right, romney can spout 2 lies in the time it takes obama to tell 1 truth

Tom Montgomery
10-11-2012, 10:27 PM
I really wanted to hear what Biden had to say. His rudeness and the dork faced laughing on the side, really only perpetuates the image of the buffoon behind the numerous gaffes he is known for. I kept thinking. . .no wonder you have a hard time expressing yourself. I was over it by the halfway point.

I bet Biden listens to Rush Limbaugh.WOW!!!

It is almost like you and I speak a different language.

hanleyclifford
10-11-2012, 10:32 PM
The snap polls are split.... CBS has Biden way ahead, CNN has Ryan ahead by a hair. Probably just reflects the differing constituent makeup for each network. We will have to wait a day or two for the professional pollsters to weight in. I will not respect any opinion that says Ryan won that debate. The poll changes or lack thereof are another matter.

Y Bar Ranch
10-11-2012, 10:34 PM
If we cared, don't you think we'd be watching it?
That's how I felt about the debate

Lew Barrett
10-11-2012, 10:40 PM
I'm in a bar in Nashville live blogging the steelers titans game

What place is/was it? See that cute girl behind the bar? Could be my daughter.....

hanleyclifford
10-11-2012, 10:40 PM
This crap judging is absurd!
Must we adopt the Dancing With The Stars method of choosing winners and losers?
No! Yes, Jester...that's the way it's done.

Lew Barrett
10-11-2012, 10:41 PM
Ryan looked more like he belonged in an assistant professor's chair at some college.

He'd have to teach philosophy or sociology; some discipline where facts are less important than theory.
For whatever it's worth, Biden won this round. I listened to it on the radio while I was installing motorcycle bits in the garage. I couldn't see their faces, which might have helped (me). I thought Biden was in control while on the defensive, a good trick if you can do it.

wardd
10-11-2012, 10:43 PM
i give ryan more points for escape and evasion

Y Bar Ranch
10-11-2012, 10:44 PM
What place is/was it? See that cute girl behind the bar? Could be my daughter.....
It was Rippy's. Went there for the barbecue, stayed for the catfish, beer, and live music. Because the game was going on, downtown was deserted and it was just the three of us and the four members of the band for a couple of hours. They took our requests, and I had them singing Charlie Rich and Merle Haggard, not to mention Neil Young. Great time. They had the football game and the baseball game on the big screen. No debate, though.

Lew Barrett
10-11-2012, 10:48 PM
I will not respect any opinion that says Ryan won that debate. The poll changes or lack thereof are another matter.


Precisely so.

Lew Barrett
10-11-2012, 10:50 PM
It was Rippy's. Went there for the barbecue, stayed for the catfish, beer, and live music. Because the game was going on, downtown was deserted and it was just the three of us and the four members of the band for a couple of hours. They took our requests, and I had them singing Charlie Rich and Merle Haggard, not to mention Neil Young. Great time. They had the football game and the baseball game on the big screen. No debate, though.

If you get to Robert's Western World, ask for Sammy. And you should get to Robert's Western World. Pure Nashville. She only works there a couple of nights a week though. Those nights there are her day job. How was Rippy's? Sound's a bit like Robert's to me, but probably (has to be) better food.

Y Bar Ranch
10-11-2012, 10:54 PM
If you get to Robert's Western World, ask for Sammy. And you should get to Robert's Western World. Pure Nashville. She only works there a couple of nights a week though. Those nights there are her day job. How was Rippy's? Sound's a bit like Robert's to me, but probably (has to be) better food.
Ahhh, definitely stood outside and listened to the band for a bit while orbiting the strip. Flying out in the AM, but will be back, and will hit Robert's. Thanks for the tip!

pipefitter
10-11-2012, 10:55 PM
That's obvious. I'd be worried if we did speak the same language. I wasn't watching the debate to look for a winner, or looking for bilge fodder. I wanted to hear what they had to say. If Biden's facts were so clear, so unanimously and obviously sensible, then why the stage show? Usually when someone laughs like that in the middle of a debate of any sort, it doesn't make them more correct and even less so.

Never been a Romney or Ryan fan. Perhaps you might try pulling your partisan blinders to the side, but I don't think that's possible. It might mean you would get a corner punched from your membership card here.

Just because I don't like Romney/Ryan, doesn't mean I have to like Obama/Biden. I liked Biden more 'before' the debate.

Lew Barrett
10-11-2012, 11:17 PM
Ahhh, definitely stood outside and listened to the band for a bit while orbiting the strip. Flying out in the AM, but will be back, and will hit Robert's. Thanks for the tip!

I spent a day there while little B was working. It was entertaining as hell. Wait, hell is not suposed to be entertaining. I mean entertaining as Hell Michigan. No wait, I don't mean that either. You know what I mean!

mikefrommontana
10-11-2012, 11:27 PM
Well, a whole bunch of people thought Ryan won--but Biden could have debated an empty chair and still lose in their view..... http://www.allproudamericans.com/debate-ryan-vs-biden-who-won.html

Sort of a mirror image of views of the Romney Obama debate last week.

johnw
10-12-2012, 12:52 AM
That's obvious. I'd be worried if we did speak the same language. I wasn't watching the debate to look for a winner, or looking for bilge fodder. I wanted to hear what they had to say. If Biden's facts were so clear, so unanimously and obviously sensible, then why the stage show? Usually when someone laughs like that in the middle of a debate of any sort, it doesn't make them more correct and even less so.

Never been a Romney or Ryan fan. Perhaps you might try pulling your partisan blinders to the side, but I don't think that's possible. It might mean you would get a corner punched from your membership card here.

Just because I don't like Romney/Ryan, doesn't mean I have to like Obama/Biden. I liked Biden more 'before' the debate.

It's funny how we get these judgements about who "won" a debate based on their demeanor. From my point of view, the most important thing I saw was that Ryan still can't make his budget numbers add up, and on foreign policy he wants to do what the Obama administration is already doing while portraying the Obama administration as weak for doing it.

I guess there's not that much of the country that's still persuadable, and I really wonder how they reacted to Biden's mugging. Going in, he knew he'd have to call Ryan on his bull, without actually calling him a liar. I think that's a lot of what the mugging was about. Of course, it would offend anyone already on Ryan's side, and look entirely understandable to anyone on Biden's side. The question is, how about those just tuning into the election?

I think Biden gets away with it because he's likable. Al Gore couldn't get away with that stuff because he was an annoying scold.

McMike
10-12-2012, 05:57 AM
Summarizing,,,,

Joe Biden just spoke from the heart.

Paul Ryan just delivered a prepared statement.

For his obvious flaws, Biden is one of the most sincere people in Washington, IMO.

McMike
10-12-2012, 06:01 AM
Numerous instances of inappropriate laughter...two instances of inexplicable rage at the moderator. Biden came off as emotionally unstable.

Ryan was weak and uninspiring.

The moderator was the clear winner of this one.


It hard not to get angry or laugh inappropriatly when you are facing compleat BS and wrong minded policy. Ryan was weak and wrong minded.

Kevin T
10-12-2012, 06:46 AM
It hard not to get angry or laugh inappropriatly when you are facing compleat BS and wrong minded policy. Ryan was weak and wrong minded.

Spot on sir!

I also think the clear loser by comparison was Jim Lehrer in the other debate. Martha asked good questions, she knew the ground, and she wasn't going to let either of these two gentlemen push her around.

She mostly kept them both to their allotted time and other then not pressing Ryan to show us his math on the 20% cuts, she didn't allow either man to shovel too much blarney

Chris Coose
10-12-2012, 07:22 AM
It hard not to get angry or laugh inappropriatly when you are facing compleat BS and wrong minded policy.

I sincerely hope Obama was watching the debate and taking notes

Shang
10-12-2012, 08:23 AM
...Ryan looked more like he belonged in an assistant professor's chair at some college.

Speaking as a college professor-- don't make me laugh, my lips are chapped.

Mrleft8
10-12-2012, 08:52 AM
I thought Ryan looked like some weird cross between Eddie Munster, and Richard Nixon..... I could swear I saw his 5 O'clock shadow get darker as the debate went on.....

hanleyclifford
10-12-2012, 08:57 AM
I thought Ryan looked like some weird cross between Eddie Munster, and Richard Nixon..... I could swear I saw his 5 O'clock shadow get darker as the debate went on..... Good point. As I've said before it's all about perception; there is a lot to be said for good make up when going on TV. His 5 o'clock shadow was evident, his skin was too shiny and his ears are too big (but he's no Ross Perot).

Garret
10-12-2012, 09:33 AM
Good point. As I've said before it's all about perception; there is a lot to be said for good make up when going on TV. His 5 o'clock shadow was evident, his skin was too shiny and his ears are too big (but he's no Ross Perot).

It's not like Obama has tiny ears....

I certainly saw the Eddie Munster resemblance though.

Gerarddm
10-12-2012, 09:46 AM
The thing let unsaid to Paul Ryan was, are you ready to be POTUS if Mr. Romney was elected and then died or was incapacitated in office?

And I don't think he came cross last night as somebody who could. There are any number of other Republicans who could more plausibly could... Jon Huntsman, but for one example.

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 10:01 AM
Now this is an effective ad from last night's debate.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PCtemaHgjyA

John Smith
10-12-2012, 10:02 AM
Ryan's version of bipartisanship: "we will define what the tax cut will be.... And then, in a bipartisan fashion, you can participate in determining how weare going to do what we intend to do anyhow"

What a laugh.

I wish Ryan had beens asked for some deduction cutting suggestions. I also wish he'd have been asked "how" we change their minds.

ccmanuals
10-12-2012, 10:04 AM
I think Biden made a home run with seniors on several points and it was just not the facts and figures but on occasions he seemed to be talking directly to them.

John Smith
10-12-2012, 10:09 AM
As of now the RCP polling average has Romney in the lead by .7%. The next few days will tell if Biden had a polling impact.

Is it likely or unlikely the recent jobs report will reflect a change in the polls? Perhaps that, coupled with this debate might change the numbers a bit.

John Smith
10-12-2012, 10:16 AM
It's funny how we get these judgements about who "won" a debate based on their demeanor. From my point of view, the most important thing I saw was that Ryan still can't make his budget numbers add up, and on foreign policy he wants to do what the Obama administration is already doing while portraying the Obama administration as weak for doing it.

I guess there's not that much of the country that's still persuadable, and I really wonder how they reacted to Biden's mugging. Going in, he knew he'd have to call Ryan on his bull, without actually calling him a liar. I think that's a lot of what the mugging was about. Of course, it would offend anyone already on Ryan's side, and look entirely understandable to anyone on Biden's side. The question is, how about those just tuning into the election?

I think Biden gets away with it because he's likable. Al Gore couldn't get away with that stuff because he was an annoying scold.

He also failed to answer the foreign policy question of what he would do differently. Biden pointed that out, but, IMO, should have just reask the question, "But WHAT would you do?"

My problem with both debates is found in what does not get discussed by nature of questions that don't get asked. We could have skipped the "catholic" question completely and given a little time to women's issues in general as opposed to abortion in particular.

Energy would be a nice topic.

John Smith
10-12-2012, 10:19 AM
Now this is an effective ad from last night's debate.....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PCtemaHgjyA

Given that the time frame is 4 years, how much closer to a nuclear weapon would Iran be? That math cannot work any other way.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 10:29 AM
"I miss Jim Lehrer," Karl Rove tweeted (https://twitter.com/KarlRove/status/256582207223758848) at the end of Thursday's vice presidential debate.

See: Martha Raddatz Draws Conservative Complaints (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/12/martha-raddatz-conservative-reactions_n_1961179.html)
No doubt you miss Jim Lehrer, Turd Blossom.

I thought Martha Raddatz did a fine job as moderator.

I have always liked Joe Biden. Yes he sometimes shoots from the lip. But he is not stupid and those who would like to think otherwise are politically vulnerable.

Why won't Obama bring it in a debate like Biden did last night? If the President were to challenge Romney like Biden challenged Ryan his reelection would be a slam dunk.

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 10:59 AM
No doubt you miss Jim Lehrer, Turd Blossom.

I thought Martha Raddatz did a fine job as moderator.

I have always liked Joe Biden. Yes he sometimes shoots from the lip. But he is not stupid and those who would like to think otherwise are politically vulnerable.

Why won't Obama bring it in a debate like Biden did last night? If the President were to challenge Romney like Biden challenged Ryan his reelection would be a slam dunk.


Well Martha should also of disclosed that she was an invited guest to the vice president's official residence last march. Neither she nor ABC chose to mention that.

As to the debate itself, I think Biden Definitely won it, but he came across as arrogant and bombastic. He won the debate but I think it cost him more in popularity than it gained him in "street cred". Some of the after debate polling supports this impression.

Garret
10-12-2012, 11:00 AM
Now this is an effective ad from last night's debate.....


You continue to support lies. Amazing. The video of Biden was edited to make it look like he was laughing at what Ryan was saying at that time, but if you watch it, they use the same video of Biden on several different video clips of Ryan. In other words, these jerks continue to lie & you're good with that.

Disgusting. I know we disagree on a # of things, but I thought you had more integrity than that.

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 11:06 AM
You continue to support lies. Amazing. The video of Biden was edited to make it look like he was laughing at what Ryan was saying at that time, but if you watch it, they use the same video of Biden on several different video clips of Ryan. In other words, these jerks continue to lie & you're good with that.

Disgusting. I know we disagree on a # of things, but I thought you had more integrity than that.

Yes, and I suppose you thought that the "Big Bird" ad was fair and balanced? The reality is that Biden laughed at some very inappropriate times - especially when they were discussing Iran. If you say that this ad was embellished to emphasize his glibness, I have no reason to doubt you, but my impressions of his behavior in the debate was that he was laughing and giggling a lot and in a creepy kind of way. Between that and him referring to Ryan as "my friend here" he was mocking him and most post debate polls actually found that this made Ryan more likable. Regardless of the accuracy of the ad (the ads for both sides have been less than truthful) it is very effective which was all that I said in the first place.

Keith Wilson
10-12-2012, 11:09 AM
Why won't Obama bring it in a debate like Biden did last night? Just wait; there are two more. Mr. Obama learns quickly what works and what doesn't.

Laughing during a debate a "likeability" don't have a damn thing to do with who one should vote for. What they'll do when in office is the main criterion, and rarely has there been a starker difference.

leikec
10-12-2012, 11:17 AM
Just wait; there are two more. Mr. Obama learns quickly what works and what doesn't.


He'd better--because he needs to look like he actually WANTS to be reelected from now on. Jimmy Carter looked angry, bitter and sick of the job when he debated Ronald Reagan, but President Obama just managed to look tired.

Jeff C

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 11:17 AM
Just wait; there are two more. Mr. Obama learns quickly what works and what doesn't.

Laughing during a debate a "likeability" don't have a damn thing to do with who one should vote for. What they'll do when in office is the main criterion, and rarely has there been a starker difference.

Really? I found both as lacking any real substance about what they would do in the next 4 years. Also, this is not an election that follows conventional wisdom - the poll sampling pools will not likely reflect the actual makeup of the election turnout so their conclusions are flawed. Moreover, conventional wisdom states that debates do not influence elections and yet the first debate suggests otherwise.

Keith Wilson
10-12-2012, 11:24 AM
I'm not speaking of the debates, which are very silly bits of political theater, for all they may have real effects. The differnce between the policies likely to be followed by a second Obama administration and a Romney administration is obvious to anyone who's been paying attention even a little.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 11:29 AM
Attack, blame and defame.

If you do not have a good record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone to run from.This was obviously a prepared theme by the Ryan strategists. Ryan repeated it several times.

It fell completely flat. It was plain to see that Biden did not shy from defending the Obama administration's record.

Ryan came across as a rehearsed talking head. Biden came across as spontaneous, informed, and unrehearsed.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 11:37 AM
Really? I found both as lacking any real substance about what they would do in the next 4 years.
BAH!

You and I obviously occupy two different realities.

Kaa
10-12-2012, 11:37 AM
The differnce between the policies likely to be followed by a second Obama administration and a Romney administration is obvious to anyone who's been paying attention even a little.

Really? I don't see much difference. There are effectively no foreign policy disagreements (regardless of both camps' attempts to find some) and things like taxes are the province of Congress. I haven't been paying too much attention :-) but I don't expect the outcome of this election to be significant (again, regardless of both camps' attempts to persuade the voters otherwise).

Kaa

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 11:40 AM
I thought it was a great faux debate. The difference between the two sides was distinctly drawn, IMO.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 11:42 AM
Really? I don't see much difference. There are effectively no foreign policy disagreements....
No #### Sherlock. :rolleyes: This is the U.S. of freaking A. We all believe might makes right and so support the massive MIC.

The domestic policy differences were stark.

leikec
10-12-2012, 11:52 AM
Really? I found both as lacking any real substance about what they would do in the next 4 years. Also, this is not an election that follows conventional wisdom - the poll sampling pools will not likely reflect the actual makeup of the election turnout so their conclusions are flawed. Moreover, conventional wisdom states that debates do not influence elections and yet the first debate suggests otherwise.


Debates generally don't influence the polls, but this debate was different. All President Obama had to do going into the first debate was to hold his own, because Romney was sinking fast and desperate for any kind of life ring after the awful month he'd just had--but instead the president allowed Romney to walk all over him.

The change in the polling is a reflection of the passive nature of much of the president's support. I was initially very worried about this, but over time I relaxed a bit, because I felt that President Obama was a strong campaigner. Those fears are back now, because the president seemed tired and apathetic in the debate.

That's a huge deal breaker for many of the people who were supporting the president in spite of having reservations about him--and I knew there were a lot of people who fit that description.

People often vote for someone when they feel the candidate is the lesser of two evils, but the reality is that people would much rather vote FOR someone, rather than against something they're afraid of--and the reality is that President Obama dropped the ball in this regard in a big way. The lukewarm support he'd enjoyed is now abandoning him.

The good news for the president is that much of the support for Romney is equally lukewarm--and Romney knows it. That is exactly why Romney is now walking back some of his more partisan position statements. All candidates do this to some extent--but Romney is doing it right now without any regard for offending conservatives because this is his moment to win the middle.

With this awful debate performance the president has given Romney the one thing Romney lacked the entire summer--control of his own destiny.

Jeff C

Kaa
10-12-2012, 11:55 AM
The domestic policy differences were stark.

You're confusing the election-year rhetoric with real policy differences. In any case, as Obama has found out, the US Constitution specifies that collecting money and deciding how to spend it is the prerogative of Congress. If the executive branch and the legislative branch can't agree and/or cooperate in this matter, the executive branch loses. On the other hand, in the whole security/civil rights area where the executive branch has a free hand I don't see any difference between Obama and Romney.

Kaa

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-12-2012, 11:56 AM
There is no question this election is a real choice of one direction or the other. I sure hope the USA decides to join the rest of the world.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 11:59 AM
Yep.

I think those who claim there is not a dime's worth of difference are either ignorant or dissembling.

peb
10-12-2012, 12:00 PM
Just wait; there are two more. Mr. Obama learns quickly what works and what doesn't.

Laughing during a debate a "likeability" don't have a damn thing to do with who one should vote for. What they'll do when in office is the main criterion, and rarely has there been a starker difference.

It certainly might for some. It is hard to believe there are folks who can go either way on these issues for some of us, but they exist. They are folks who thing there ate multiple ways to skin a cat and what matters is effectiveness, integrity, professionalism, etc. Biden turned a lot of those folks off last night, particularly women. If Obama takes this tactic, he will surely loose.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 12:02 PM
Peb thinks Biden turned off women last night?

WOW.

leikec
10-12-2012, 12:03 PM
It certainly might for some. It is hard to believe there are folks who can go either way on these issues for some of us, but they exist. They are folks who thing there ate multiple ways to skin a cat and what matters is effectiveness, integrity, professionalism, etc. Biden turned a lot of those folks off last night, particularly women. If Obama takes this tactic, he will surely loose.


Biden turned off a lot of republicans last night, but that isn't news.

Jeff C

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 12:05 PM
There is no question this election is a real choice of one direction or the other. I sure hope the USA decides to join the rest of the world.

I think it is less a choice of which direction for the country as much as it is an avoidance of the direction that you see as unacceptable. Romney voters don't want President Obama's "trickle down government" and Obama supporters don't want Romney's less government and less taxes. I realize there are some true Romney and Obama supporters, but most that I talk to are just trying to pick the lesser of two evils and are not excited about either.

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 12:06 PM
Peb thinks Biden turned off women last night?

WOW.


If you were a woman would you want a guy making a lecherous giggle at you while you were talking? :)

Kaa
10-12-2012, 12:10 PM
So, let's imagine two possible scenarios.

Scenario A: Obama wins the White House, but the Republicans get the Senate and continue to hold onto the House.

Scenario B: Romney wins the election, but the Democrats keep the Senate and gain something close to parity in the House.

What do you expect (as opposed to want) to happen, domestic policy-wise, in scenario A and scenario B -- in particular, what would be major, significant things that you think will occur in one scenario but not the other?

Kaa

Kevin T
10-12-2012, 12:12 PM
Yes, and I suppose you thought that the "Big Bird" ad was fair and balanced? The reality is that Biden laughed at some very inappropriate times - especially when they were discussing Iran. If you say that this ad was embellished to emphasize his glibness, I have no reason to doubt you, but my impressions of his behavior in the debate was that he was laughing and giggling a lot and in a creepy kind of way. Between that and him referring to Ryan as "my friend here" he was mocking him and most post debate polls actually found that this made Ryan more likable. Regardless of the accuracy of the ad (the ads for both sides have been less than truthful) it is very effective which was all that I said in the first place.

He was mocking Ryan? You're darn toot'in he was mocking Ryan. Ryan and his contempt for anyone within 15 years of retirement and the lifetime's worth of contributions they've made to SS is deserving of not only being mocked, but I'd throw in outright contempt.

P.S. you can spare me the predictable false sense of outrage and hurt. Supporting the double R team is straight up contempt for your fellow citizens and I think you know it.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-12-2012, 12:15 PM
I think it is less a choice of which direction for the country as much as it is an avoidance of the direction that you see as unacceptable. Romney voters don't want President Obama's "trickle down government" and Obama supporters don't want Romney's less government and less taxes. I realize there are some true Romney and Obama supporters, but most that I talk to are just trying to pick the lesser of two evils and are not excited about either.


You are a country whose middle class has borrowed on it's equity for about 30 years just to stay where it is. You have a medical system that is so dismal for the average person, and so expensive, that it is unique in the world. You have the highest rate of gun deaths in the western world. You spend more on defense (of something!?) than all the other countries in the world combined. I could go on, but it appears you just don't get it. Canada has it's problems, no question, but we manage to beat the mighty USA in categories that we should have a prayer of winning. The Republican party seems to represent the 'stay where we are, we're doing great, stay the course, keep the rich rich, keep the darkies down' part of american culture that the rest of the world looks at in absolute amazement. Your choice of course.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 12:21 PM
If you were a woman would you want a guy making a lecherous giggle at you while you were talking? :)
Joe Biden was lecherously giggling at Paul Ryan? OMFG!!!

Ted Hoppe
10-12-2012, 12:35 PM
Now this is an effective ad from last night's debate.....




http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PCtemaHgjyA

You continue to support lies. Amazing. The video of Biden was edited to make it look like he was laughing at what Ryan was saying at that time, but if you watch it, they use the same video of Biden on several different video clips of Ryan. In other words, these jerks continue to lie & you're good with that.

Disgusting. I know we disagree on a # of things, but I thought you had more integrity than that.

PLUS 1 on this Garret. This ad show the minds behind it have no integrity. Anyone who would promote such video manipulation and distortion might want to reconsider such support of the outrageous, erroneous efforts.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 12:40 PM
Deception is all they've got to offset Ryan's disasterous performance.

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 01:01 PM
PLUS 1 on this Garret. This ad show the minds behind it have no integrity. Anyone who would promote such video manipulation and distortion might want to reconsider such support of the outrageous, erroneous efforts.


Again I ask...where is your outrage for President Obama's "Big Bird" ad or is deception only an issue for you when the other side does it? I have no doubt this was edited, but I can tell you that even the liberal bloggers were commenting about his frequent and inappropriate laughing as Ryan was speaking. This may be an exaggeration but it is an exaggeration of what he did last night.

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 01:05 PM
Joe Biden was lecherously giggling at Paul Ryan? OMFG!!!

Nice way to take things in an entirely different direction here. I never said that about Biden doing that to Ryan and if you think I did, you may need to check the mushrooms you had in your lunchtime salad.

Save the OMFG for something I actually said. Don't you think that such a response would be just a little juvenile? After all, we are hardly BFF's :)

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 01:14 PM
Nice way to take things in an entirely different direction here. I never said that about Biden doing that to Ryan and if you think I did, you may need to check the mushrooms you had in your lunchtime salad.
Get real.


If you were a woman would you want a guy making a lecherous giggle at you while you were talking? :)
This is discussion about last night's VP debate. What the ### did you mean by your remark???

Spare me your superciliousness.

Kaa
10-12-2012, 01:17 PM
I'll throw in a quote:

"There was an interesting exchange on MSNBC after last night's debate when one of the hosts asked one of the string of professional Democrats who were streaming through how she thought Biden had done. I paraphrase, but her answer was roughly: "I thought he was great. He really showed contempt for Paul Ryan." Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley enthusiastically agreed that yes, Biden had been really contemptuous, which was great.

What an odd thing to celebrate. Not "Biden was really good on foreign policy" or "Biden outlined a vision of America that will resonate with voters", but "Biden showed contempt for Paul Ryan." The oddest thing was that no one--not the guest, not the hosts, not Governor O'Malley--seemed to think there was anything strange about it. Though Governor O'Malley seemed to belatedly realize that it didn't sound good, and tried to recover with a tepid, "I mean, I don't think he was trying to . . . "

If so, he was about the only one. Biden launched into the eye rolling and the smirking, the head shaking and the laughing, and of course, the constant interrupting, nearly as soon as Ryan started talking. I assume that means it was part of their debate coaching. I mean, I don't think that he intended to come off as an obnoxious eighth grader heckling a classmate, or to actually shout himself hoarse with his constant interruptions. I'd guess they told him to come across as genially disappointed, more-in-sorrow-than-in-anger, and he kind of went off the rails."

(http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/10/12/vp-debate-no-winners-but-no-big-losers-either.html)

Kaa

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 01:18 PM
I love prompting the morans to run to a dictionary.

There is a very good reason Donn refuses to engage me in discussion.

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 01:19 PM
Get real.


This is discussion about last night's VP debate. What the ### did you mean by your remark???

Spare me your superciliousness.

Save your feigned indignation for someone that doesn't know what you are doing.

You said...


Peb thinks Biden turned off women last night?

WOW.

To which I replied....


If you were a woman would you want a guy making a lecherous giggle at you while you were talking? :)

If you can't understand it then I can't help you.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 01:20 PM
I'll throw in a quote:

"There was an interesting exchange on MSNBC after last night's debate when one of the hosts asked one of the string of professional Democrats who were streaming through how she thought Biden had done. I paraphrase, but her answer was roughly: "I thought he was great. He really showed contempt for Paul Ryan." Maryland Governor Martin O'Malley enthusiastically agreed that yes, Biden had been really contemptuous, which was great.

Yep. Contempt is an appropriate response to rote ideology.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 01:21 PM
Save your feigned indignation for someone that doesn't know what you are doing.
Nothing feigned about it. The only appropriate response to you ideologues is contempt.

By the way... I am completely aware that I am being rude. Rudeness can be as appropriate a response as contempt. But it is possible to express disdain in a socially acceptable manner. ;)

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 01:27 PM
Nothing feigned about it. The only appropriate response to you ideologues is contempt.

By the way... I am completely aware that I am being rude. Rudeness can be as appropriate a response as contempt. But it is possible to express disdain in a socially acceptable manner. ;)

I don't know which is worse being unaware that you are "rude" or being knowingly "rude". I guess you prefer that to staying on topic and risk being wrong.

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 01:28 PM
Yep. Contempt is an appropriate response to rote ideology.

And it gets you nothing...


ENGAGING, OR A TURNOFF:
While many found Biden's grins infectious, some found them immature.
"That mugging, those condescending looks - it was a complete turnoff," said body language expert Lillian Glass, author of the upcoming "Body Language Advantage." "He was bullying, he was smug, he interrupted ... I think he lost a lot of his message based on facial gestures."
Biden may have been deemed the winner by many, but "from a body language point of view, he did not win this debate," she said.
A GOOD FIRST OUTING FOR RYAN:
Even though he's much less experienced than Biden, experts agreed that it was a first good outing for Ryan.
"He passed the threshold of being an acceptable vice president - through his command of foreign policy, which is a difficult threshold since he's a domestic policy wonk," said Jamieson.
"He was more gentlemanly," said Glass, in Los Angeles. "He looked at the vice president, and didn't ever mug, or make a face."

Kaa
10-12-2012, 01:31 PM
Yep. Contempt is an appropriate response to rote ideology.

Ah. So, your idea of the interaction between the Democrats and the Republicans in Congress would go like this: the Democrats would be contemptuous and the Republicans...? :-D

Kaa

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 01:32 PM
PLUS 1 on this Garret. This ad show the minds behind it have no integrity. Anyone who would promote such video manipulation and distortion might want to reconsider such support of the outrageous, erroneous efforts.


Well if integrity is valued by you, what do you have to say about this?


Vice President Joe Biden accused Rep. Paul Ryan of putting two wars on the “credit card,” and then suggested he voted against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

“By the way, they talk about this great recession like it fell out of the sky–like, ‘Oh my goodness, where did it come from?’” Biden said. “It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card, at the same time, put a prescription drug plan on the credit card, a trillion dollar tax cut for the very wealthy.”

“I was there, I voted against them,” Biden continued. “I said, no, we can’t afford that.”

Then Sen. Biden voted (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00281) for the Afghanistan resolution on Sept. 14, 2001 which authorized (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_107_1.htm) “the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.”

And on Oct. 11, 2002, Biden voted for a resolution authorizing unilateral military action in Iraq, according (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/senaterollcall_iraq101002.htm) to the Washington Post.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 01:33 PM
And it gets you nothing...
I disagree. I think the American public enjoys spontaneously honest reaction and expression from their representatives.

You may prefer rehearsed performance. Vive la différence!

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 01:34 PM
I disagree. I think the American public enjoys spontaneously honest reaction and expression from their representatives.

You may prefer rehearsed performance. Vive la différence!

It was neither spontaneous nor honest. It was obviously planned. If it were spontaneous it would be even worse. He takes over if anything happens to the President - he needs to be in control of his reactions as he deals with major issues.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 01:34 PM
Vice President Joe Biden accused Rep. Paul Ryan of putting two wars on the “credit card....”Was Vice President Biden incorrect?

Joe Biden's vote was wrong. Will Paul Ryan admit the same?

No? I didn't think so....

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 01:37 PM
There is nothing "honest" about Biden. See post #144

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 01:39 PM
It was neither spontaneous nor honest. It was obviously planned.Nyuck, nyuck, nyuck.

You and I obviously occupy two different realities.

And I completely understand why you are feeling worried and defensive today.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 01:41 PM
There is nothing "honest" about Biden. See post #144
See post #147.

Kaa
10-12-2012, 01:42 PM
Was Vice President Biden incorrect?


Yes, he was. He said that the great recession came out of the federal budget deficits. That is not even close to true.


Joe Biden's vote was wrong.

Which vote? The one he actually cast or the one he claimed in the debate? :-D

Kaa

Ted Hoppe
10-12-2012, 01:44 PM
Again I ask...where is your outrage for President Obama's "Big Bird" ad or is deception only an issue for you when the other side does it? I have no doubt this was edited, but I can tell you that even the liberal bloggers were commenting about his frequent and inappropriate laughing as Ryan was speaking. This may be an exaggeration but it is an exaggeration of what he did last night.

If you want to use a scale. One weights a thing as an simple exaggeration. The other is an outrageous, physical video manipulation lie - which is more egregious? Accepting this current ad is like accepting a counterfeit denomination, it is worthless to the issuer and holds value all the way till you realize you have been had.

And yes, Romney does want to kill big bird PBS federal funding. So what?

peb
10-12-2012, 02:01 PM
Anyone who saw Biden's behavior as spontaneous is completely delusional. It was planned, I suppose to fire up the base so as to aid the get out the vote effort.

Without considering that, I see no way any benefit from last nights debate was achieved for Obama.

In general, something dramatic would have to happen at a vp debate for it to have any impact IMO. Well something drastic did happen, Biden's behavior. And it might tip a point or to towards Romney, as people (especially women) saw exactly what they hate about Washington politics. Once this possibility is considered by dems, we will hear a lot about " no impact, let's look forward to the debates that matter"

Delusional folks on this forum will be the last to realize the negative possibilities for their candidate, too bad the Obama campaign is smarter then folks around here.

Tom Montgomery
10-12-2012, 02:04 PM
You can smell the fear.

hanleyclifford
10-12-2012, 02:05 PM
Uh oh...going the wrong way. Romney picks up .3% overnight. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/general_election_romney_vs_obama-1171.html#polls

pcford
10-12-2012, 02:08 PM
too bad the Obama campaign is smarter then folks around here.

ummm, that's "than" not "then," Peb.

And you might be right about the Obama campaign being smarter than some folks around here.

At least some....

hanleyclifford
10-12-2012, 02:27 PM
The only delusion here in the forum comes from the folks who think that the people who disagree with them, politically, are de facto delusional. In fact, it's a hallmark of delusion, I'd say. Thanks, Norm. You seem to be the only lefty with a balanced wait and see approach to the outcome, even though you clearly have a preference.

peb
10-12-2012, 02:28 PM
ummm, that's "than" not "then," Peb.

And you might be right about the Obama campaign being smarter than some folks around here.

At least some....

Phone typing is my excuse

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 02:31 PM
See post #147.

Was Biden Correct?


“I was there, I voted against them,” Biden continued. “I said, no, we can’t afford that.”

Then Sen. Biden voted (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=107&session=1&vote=00281) for the Afghanistan resolution on Sept. 14, 2001 which authorized (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_107_1.htm) “the use of United States Armed Forces against those responsible for the recent attacks launched against the United States.”

And on Oct. 11, 2002, Biden voted for a resolution authorizing unilateral military action in Iraq, according (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/senaterollcall_iraq101002.htm) to the Washington Post.

BTW: I'm actually feeling pretty good about things today (and really for the last 2 weeks) - Real Clear politics shows that President Obama has only locked up 10 states, has a 20 electoral college lead and falling, and Romney is on the verge of locking up Florida. Yesterday's debate was won by Biden, but not by that much, and Ryan took all of Biden's Malarkey and was still standing at the end. You are the one that seems more augmentative. Perhaps it is you that is worried and defensive today. Have a nice weekend - I know I will :)

ccmanuals
10-12-2012, 02:37 PM
I think it is less a choice of which direction for the country as much as it is an avoidance of the direction that you see as unacceptable. Romney voters don't want President Obama's "trickle down government" and Obama supporters don't want Romney's less government and less taxes. I realize there are some true Romney and Obama supporters, but most that I talk to are just trying to pick the lesser of two evils and are not excited about either.


Romney voters don't want a communist in the WH. (a little tip here. If you go on National TV and call the President a communist you might want to have a second sentence ready). :) :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2E87gciwebw

peb
10-12-2012, 02:38 PM
The only delusion here in the forum comes from the folks who think that the people who disagree with them, politically, are de facto delusional. In fact, it's a hallmark of delusion, I'd say.

I never said folks who disagree with me politically are delusional. But I will repeat that anyone, regardless of political beliefs, who saw Biden's behavior last night as spontaneous is certainly delusional.

I was really surprised by the tactic, Unlike many on the right, I expected Biden to do really well. He is great at thinking on his feet, he has lots of experience in the art of arguing. He did quite well on his substance, but it will be forgotten because of his behavior. The Dems certainly had cause to fear Ryan, he too is very good at this sort of thing. But that tactic was a huge risk and was not needed for Biden to win.

Kevin T
10-12-2012, 02:45 PM
There is nothing "honest" about Biden. See post #144


You are most likely referring to this bit:

"And on Oct. 11, 2002, Biden voted for a resolution authorizing unilateral military action in Iraq, according (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/senaterollcall_iraq101002.htm) to the Washington Post."

What is so difficult to understand about the Senate coming together to show another country (Iraq) unity of resolve. I understand that in the GOP playbook that compromise and pulling together are completely off the table so for the GOP apologists it must be very difficult to understand this.

The entire vote was to send a message to a recalcitrant Saddam that the US meant business and we were not divided, I think to a man, many if not all Dems and likely a fair amount of Reps thought that President Bush wouldn't actually go through with it, that he would let the inspections move forward, but I guess that's what one gets when they put their faith in the GOP, broken promises and in the case of President Bush nothing was going to stop him in avenging his father. Remember, he himself said, "Saddam tried to kill my Dad!" Bah!

Garret
10-12-2012, 02:46 PM
Thanks, Norm. You seem to be the only lefty with a balanced wait and see approach to the outcome, even though you clearly have a preference.

What am I? Chopped liver? :)

Guess I don't quite rate "lefty" status.... I'm OK with that.

ccmanuals
10-12-2012, 02:47 PM
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/s480x480/420444_10151057683821167_2147114774_n.jpg

Mrleft8
10-12-2012, 02:48 PM
Romney voters don't want a communist in the WH. (a little tip here. If you go on National TV and call the President a communist you might want to have a second sentence ready). :) :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=2E87gciwebw
"Just because he was born in this country doesn't mean he's an Am..... It doesn't mean he thinks like us. He's a communist. You study it up."
Well thank god he doesn't think like her.....

Concordia 33
10-12-2012, 03:17 PM
You are most likely referring to this bit:

"And on Oct. 11, 2002, Biden voted for a resolution authorizing unilateral military action in Iraq, according (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/transcripts/senaterollcall_iraq101002.htm) to the Washington Post."

What is so difficult to understand about the Senate coming together to show another country (Iraq) unity of resolve. I understand that in the GOP playbook that compromise and pulling together are completely off the table so for the GOP apologists it must be very difficult to understand this.



There is nothing at all difficult to understand about this. The problem is that in the debate he claimed that he did not vote for it and mocked Ryan for supporting it. It seems a little dishonest to me unless you feel that his Alzheimers disease is flaring up.

ccmanuals
10-12-2012, 03:57 PM
Matt Taibbi of Rolling Stone magazine is pretty straight forward on his blog. Well, he writes about the VP Debate and why Joe Biden was right to Laugh.

If you like Taibbi here he is at his best.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/the-vice-presidential-debate-joe-biden-was-right-to-laugh-20121012

George Jung
10-12-2012, 04:10 PM
Yo
u can't report the Obama tax plan and the Romney tax plan in the same way, because only one of them is really a plan, while the other is actually not a plan at all, but an electoral gambit.
The Romney/Ryan ticket decided, with incredible cynicism, that that they were going to promise this massive tax break, not explain how to pay for it, and then just hang on until election day, knowing that mostof the political press would let it skate, or at least not take a dump all over it when explaining it to the public. Unchallenged, and treated in print and on the air as though it were the same thing as a real plan, a 20 percent tax cut sounds pretty good to most Americans. Hell, it sounds good to me.
The proper way to report such a tactic is to bring to your coverage exactly the feeling that Biden brought to the debate last night: contempt and amazement. We in the press should be offended by what Romney and Ryan are doing – we should take professional offense that any politician would try to whisk such a gigantic lie past us to our audiences, and we should take patriotic offense that anyone is trying to seize the White House using such transparently childish and dishonest tactics.
I've never been a Joe Biden fan. After four years, I'm not the biggest Barack Obama fan, either (and I'll get into why on that score later). But they're at least credible as big-league politicians. So much of the Romney/Ryan plan is so absurdly junior league, it's so far off-Broadway, it's practically in New Jersey.
Paul Ryan, a leader in the most aggressively and mindlessly partisan Congress in history, preaching bipartisanship? A private-equity parasite, Mitt Romney, who wants to enact a massive tax cut and pay for it without touching his own personal fortune-guaranteeing deduction, the carried-interest tax break (http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/01/24/mitt-romneys-sweetest-tax-break-the-dirty-little-secret-of-car/) – which keeps his own taxes below 15 percent despite incomes above $20 million?
The Romney/Ryan platform makes sense,


Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/the-vice-presidential-debate-joe-biden-was-right-to-laugh-20121012#ixzz297aNlbzH



It's worth the read.

hanleyclifford
10-12-2012, 05:36 PM
What am I? Chopped liver? :)

Guess I don't quite rate "lefty" status.... I'm OK with that. Sorry, Garret, but you just don't run with the usual suspects. I should be more careful; my bigot ankle is starting to show.

elf
10-12-2012, 07:45 PM
From my perspective the only appropriate response to the completely disrespectful and cynical behavior of the Republicans since 2008 is laughter. They should have been laughed off the stage of public events four years ago, maybe 34 years ago when Nixon revealed how unserious they were as a party about governing.

Any government official who signs the Norquist pledge is simply a traitor, as s/he is indicating that Grover Norquist commands more fealty than the Constitution.

I hope Mr. Obama laughs Mr. Romney off the stage at the next debate. Thus far nothing Mr. Romney has said in his campaign could possibly be taken seriously, and all of it is destructive of the nation and society.

The Republicans are simply ludicrous.

Kevin T
10-12-2012, 08:03 PM
LOL. "I pledge allegiance to raising taxes..." and if you don't you're a TRAITOR!

Kaa

That's horse hockey and you know it Kaa, although we should remind ourselves that it was you writing of yourself when you said "that sanity is overrated." So I guess we know how serious to take your musings, which would be not at all, in light of the fact that you don't take yourself seriously.
:-)

Garret
10-12-2012, 08:27 PM
...but do note that the talk of traitors was started by Elf. :-P

Kaa

Maybe on this thread.... But we've had this conversation before.

Garret
10-12-2012, 08:48 PM
That the pledge signers are traitors.

Maybe it wasn't you - but you were on the thread.

ccmanuals
10-12-2012, 09:20 PM
Constitution, Article 6 - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.



The current oath was enacted in 1884:
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

Garret
10-12-2012, 10:11 PM
'zactly

hanleyclifford
10-13-2012, 08:44 AM
So why isn't the Blue team getting a boost? RCP going the wrong way; Romney advances another .3% overnight to 1.3% lead. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/general_election_romney_vs_obama-1171.html#polls

Y Bar Ranch
10-13-2012, 10:26 AM
I love prompting the morans to run to a dictionary..

Would that be the Morans of Kilnessny that ye be referring to?

Heh

Garret
10-13-2012, 11:24 AM
Of course, you don't really think that poll averages are expected to move overnight in response to minor changes in the race.

That's just one of those arguments that conservatives make, not because they think it's a logical argument, but because they like to muddy the waters.

I actually think it goes beyond that. Romney did a great job with the BS delivery in debate #1 & the Reps are doing a good job of spinning the VP debate. This simply proves (again) that this country is all about marketing vs. substance.

The Obama team needs to wake up to that.

Kevin T
10-15-2012, 06:31 AM
Sanity is definitely overrated, but do note that the talk of traitors was started by Elf. :-P

Kaa

No she raised the specter of those signing a pledge to Grover Norquist could be considered traitors. Please point out the section in the Constitution where GOP representatives are required to owe fealty to a non-elected individual who takes a position and by means of green-mail threatens ruination and defeat to any who oppose him.

I didn't realize that hostage taking was a constitutionally protected right, but it's obvious that fear and cowering by certain Congressional members is alive, well and protected.

Garret
10-15-2012, 06:37 AM
No she raised the specter of those signing a pledge to Grover Norquist could be considered traitors. Please point out the section in the Constitution where GOP representatives are required to owe fealty to a non-elected individual who takes a position and by means of green-mail threatens ruination and defeat to any who oppose him.

I didn't realize that hostage taking was a constitutionally protected right, but it's obvious that fear and cowering by certain Congressional members is alive, well and protected.

How do we know what his real motives are? If he lived in say Russia, or China, there'd be people screaming bloody murder about the signer's loyalties. Why should that make a difference? Are we that sure he isn't in the pay of a foreign power? The oath of office says "against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

Kevin T
10-15-2012, 06:38 AM
How do we know what his real motives are? If he lived in say Russia, or China, there'd be people screaming bloody murder about the signer's loyalties. Why should that make a difference? Are we that sure he isn't in the pay of a foreign power? he pledge says "against all enemies, foreign and domestic"

Exactly!

Garret
10-15-2012, 06:40 AM
Exactly!

You were quick on your reply! I'd edited a bit (soon enough to not have it flagged as edited) & you got it before the edit...

Kevin T
10-15-2012, 07:15 AM
You were quick on your reply! I'd edited a bit (soon enough to not have it flagged as edited) & you got it before the edit...

Hi Garret, no need to even edit, I think I knew what you meant when you wrote, "pledge" I believe you were referring to the oath of office upon swearing in by members of government.

Without wishing to go into TD territory, but it is an interesting thought experiment; If one wanted to take out a government and you could get someone on the inside to persuade the ruling class to "starve the beast" so it was ineffectual in all areas of domestic governance, all the built bombs in the world won't protect against fiscal collapse, but lack of revenue certainly can accomplish it.

Our government has done it against other governments, I think the term they use is fiscal or financial hit-men and some guy wrote a book about how they took down various latin american countries, so it does exist and not beyond the realm of possibility here.

Kevin T
10-15-2012, 11:27 AM
Um, and what does this gobbledygook nonsense have to do with anything?

Kaa

To make it a bit clearer for you Kaa, Emily posted the following, note the bolded part, and then you made some comment about "I pledge allegiance to raising taxes is treasonous. I simply pointed out that Emily's take on Mr. Norquist is wherein lies the real treason, you seem to have gotten confused there. Is it clearer now? If not there is a pill you can take that will help.

"From my perspective the only appropriate response to the completely disrespectful and cynical behavior of the Republicans since 2008 is laughter. They should have been laughed off the stage of public events four years ago, maybe 34 years ago when Nixon revealed how unserious they were as a party about governing.

Any government official who signs the Norquist pledge is simply a traitor, as s/he is indicating that Grover Norquist commands more fealty than the Constitution.

I hope Mr. Obama laughs Mr. Romney off the stage at the next debate. Thus far nothing Mr. Romney has said in his campaign could possibly be taken seriously, and all of it is destructive of the nation and society.

The Republicans are simply ludicrous."

Kevin T
10-15-2012, 11:58 AM
A pill! That's interesting. A blue pill, by any chance? :-D

Since you're here and posting, maybe you'd care to explain precisely how signing a pledge is treasonous...

Kaa

Easy, when one's elected officials start signing pledges to unelected private citizens(Grover Norquist) to disavow one of their constitutionally outlined responsibilities, namely:

Section 7.1 "All bills for raising revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with ammendments as on other Bills."

I'd say it starts rising to the level of treason.

And since such raising of revenue is seen as to the benefit and general welfare of the populace, I'd say those pledge signers are acting in a treasonous manner. I believe most oaths of office in Government put forth something along the lines of I shall defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic.

I've read the Constitution several times and nowhere have I ever read where it puts forth that all duly elected representatives shall never raise revenue and that they shall put all of their allegiance first and foremost to a man named Grover Norquist who shall rise to unelected power in the year of our Lord Nineteen Hundred and Eighty-five.

Interestingly enough, Wikipedia lists one of his occupations as comedian:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

And yes I would suggest you take several of those little blue pills, you writing is starting to seem a little "backed up" shall we say! :-D

Hope that clears up the concept of treason for you. Cheers!

Kevin T
10-15-2012, 12:20 PM
^ Please enlighten in times of fiscal cliff dwelling how taxes would not be the most expedient and beneficial, or do you truly believe that we can wage several wars, cut taxes and still lower the deficit.

Or do you take Romney at his word when he say that he will lower taxes by 20%, build three new Subs, a new battleship or two, increase the military budget by two trillion dollars and not raise the deficit, but in fact lower it based on that fiscal winner of trickle down economics.

Son, it's no wonder you can't see any humor in anything if you believe the prior sentence, most humor requires a modicum of truth in which to anchor the funny to, at the very least a view of reality that isn't based on a complete disregard for sanity!

Kevin T
10-15-2012, 12:38 PM
I personally would start by dumping the wars :-)



I didn't say that. I see lots of humor in many things :-) I was just asking for better quality humor from you :-P

But what about the pledges? Do you still think it's treason?

Kaa

Yep dump the wars, that way we can start playing that "cut and run card" again, but yes by all means get out completely. Put all of the defense budget save for a small domestic defense force, into renewable energy. Let the ME keep the oil, they can't drink it and if we don't buy it, world wide prices should plummet. Besides I'd much rather be viewed by the world as Canada or Sweden, and not as the big bully we appear to be.

If you are going to be demanding of humor from me that you find funny to your taste, then may I suggest you first pay the two drink minimum, and be sure to tip your serves generously, otherwise you're just a guy hanging out by the stage door. Wants to hear the show, but really doesn't want to pay the cover charge.

And yes, if I elect a representative to go to DC and do what is necessary to get our financial house in order and one of the tools in that Representative's toolbox is taken completely off the table (if I might mix metaphors for a moment) because he has signed a pledge promising to NEVER raise taxes, then yes a hundred times yes I see that as bordering on if not downright treasonous.

Remember, it's "for, of and by the people," not for of and by Grover Norquist" The only one's who seem to embrace the latter position are those who pulled the tree house ladder up behind themselves before the rest of the kids got in the tree house. Bah! (tm Gerardd)

Kevin T
10-15-2012, 01:16 PM
You'll haves to pays your money to find out. ;-)

Regrettably that is true regarding pledges and promises, and while there are some reasonable GOP candidates, the second they sign that pledge any chance they may have had at real honest to goodness reasonableness goes out the window, and subsequently they don't get my vote or anyone else I know.

What's doubly unfortunate is that since almost every GOP member has signed the pledge, it puts a stranglehold on reasoned governance and made one party, and by default the whole country hostage to one man's pique. Because it is widely known that to go against GN is to unleash a tsunami of negative advertising funded by GN's organization, and in GOP safe districts you either sign his pledge or watch somebody else accept the party's nomination. Check and see which party has signed that pledge more then the other, it'll give you some insight into the reality of that party today.

It further corrupts the system when some portion of the electorate buys into the load of garden amendments that ol' Grover's selling. But don't take my word for it, look no further then some of the former GOP party members here on the WBF who feel the party not only left them, but left all reason behind as well.

Kevin T
10-15-2012, 01:57 PM
Isn't it so inconvenient that Norquist is not a billionaire? :-D

That word, "corrupts", I don't think it means what you think it means :-)

Kaa

No not at all, he just happens to have the backing of a few billionaire jackanapes who have got him to do their bidding.

"Corrupts" means exactly as I intended it to, and if it isn't the way you think it should be used, no matter, I create my own reality*.

* learned that one from the GOP, I like it and I think I'll stick with it. It makes for a good all purpose balm.

Garret
10-15-2012, 02:21 PM
But what about the pledges? Do you still think it's treason?

Kaa

Yes (& I know you didn't ask me)

Garret
10-15-2012, 02:36 PM
your neurological vision defect... :-P

Kaa

That's pefjr. Easy to confuse us politically, I know.

hanleyclifford
10-15-2012, 04:31 PM
Looks like the Biden debate finally kicked in. Romney lead down to .1% http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/president/us/general_election_romney_vs_obama-1171.html#polls

elf
10-15-2012, 04:44 PM
I must say - I'm glad to see there is at least one other, and possibly two other people here who understand my concept of traitorious committment.

Garret
10-15-2012, 04:50 PM
Who's the "possibly"? Kevin seemed pretty clear & this is the third thread I've said it on (plus a # of times in real life, but that doesn't count here...). Then there's the third?