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View Full Version : Ikea Airbrushes Women Out Of Catalogue to Woo Saudis



Farfalla
10-02-2012, 06:13 PM
Ikea is in strife in Sweden for airbrushing women out of it's catalogue on it's Saudi site in an effort to "play nice" with the Saudis and their ridiculous Medieval views on women.
Women can't drive, can't go out of the home without a male's permission, have only a limited vote and are suject to all sorts of abuse.
Are jailed and flogged for adultery if they are raped.
Nice culture, but that's all OK they are favourite allies!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/ikea-airbrushes-women-from-its-saudi-catalogue-8193204.html

wardd
10-02-2012, 06:24 PM
Ikea is in strife in Sweden for airbrushing women out of it's catalogue on it's Saudi site in an effort to "play nice" with the Saudis and their ridiculous Medieval views on women.
Women can't drive, can't go out of the home without a male's permission, have only a limited vote and are suject to all sorts of abuse.
Are jailed and flogged for adultery if they are raped.
Nice culture, but that's all OK they are favourite allies!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/ikea-airbrushes-women-from-its-saudi-catalogue-8193204.html

but women shouldn't be allowed on the furniture

wardd
10-02-2012, 06:26 PM
use a magic marker on your monitor

Paul Pless
10-02-2012, 06:32 PM
Nice culture, but that's all OK they are favourite allies!of Sweden???

Hwyl
10-02-2012, 07:41 PM
I wonder if airbrushing would work in the Bilge.

We live in hope, although you are an expansive canvas.

ljb5
10-02-2012, 07:44 PM
Or, to phrase it another way, "Ikea poses women in catalog pictures to woo buyers in countries other than Saudi Arabia."

You realize all those photos are staged, right?

LeeG
10-02-2012, 07:45 PM
Of the UK?

Speaking of Saudi Arabia


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/17/business/energy-environment/us-reliance-on-saudi-oil-is-growing-again.html?pagewanted=all


http://gulfnews.com/business/opinion/alarm-bells-on-the-longevity-of-oil-wells-in-saudi-arabia-1.1082656

Paul Pless
10-02-2012, 07:45 PM
You realize all those photos are staged, right?I just go for the meatballs. . .

LeeG
10-02-2012, 07:47 PM
I just go for the meatballs. . .

They don't do it for me, I like the big blue shopping bags, multi-purpose.

The Bigfella
10-02-2012, 07:49 PM
Does Ikea sell women?

LeeG
10-02-2012, 07:52 PM
Does Ikea sell women?

Images of them, but it's spelled funny

Hwyl
10-02-2012, 08:19 PM
Does Ikea sell women?

Everything is cheaper in Asia.

skuthorp
10-02-2012, 08:22 PM
I think that men are the problem, maybe we need to be 'airbrushed' out?

Waddie
10-02-2012, 08:28 PM
I'm thinking of converting to Islam..................

regards,
Waddie

The Bigfella
10-02-2012, 08:36 PM
I'm thinking of converting to Islam..................

regards,
Waddie

Aww, c'mon Waddie. I don't think you are being fair to Sophie here. She's one of my imaginary friends, and I'd like to think that she gets the respect that she deserves.

Waddie
10-02-2012, 09:22 PM
Aww, c'mon Waddie. I don't think you are being fair to Sophie here. She's one of my imaginary friends, and I'd like to think that she gets the respect that she deserves.

Is Sophie inflatable?

regards,
Waddie

B_B
10-02-2012, 09:39 PM
Ahh, excellent. We've gone from a nonsensical rant about Saudi Arabia, to to personal attacks, in little more than a baker's dozen...

FWIW, to the OP, I do not find it offensive that advertisers couch their wares in a manner consistent with the culture in which they are selling their goods, no matter my thoughts on the culture itself.

Garret
10-02-2012, 09:44 PM
Ahh, excellent. We've gone from a nonsensical rant about Saudi Arabia, to to personal attacks, in little more than a baker's dozen...

FWIW, to the OP, I do not find it offensive that advertisers couch their wares in a manner consistent with the culture in which they are selling their goods, no matter my thoughts on the culture itself.

+1 on both points

varadero
10-03-2012, 01:11 AM
The West just loves "Tidy" dictatorships.

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 01:37 AM
Ahh, excellent. We've gone from a nonsensical rant about Saudi Arabia, to to personal attacks, in little more than a baker's dozen...

FWIW, to the OP, I do not find it offensive that advertisers couch their wares in a manner consistent with the culture in which they are selling their goods, no matter my thoughts on the culture itself.

This is only a "nonsenical rant" if you are a guy who supports conservative right wing ideologies!

Saudi Arabia's treatment of women is appalling, truly horrific and any pandering to this rubbish is supporting that system.

The same Wahabaists that are the ideological core of the Medieval view of Islam that exists there are the ones who train and finance all of the Major Islamic terror groups around the world. It is the Wahabaiist faith that teaches about the need to establish a World Caliphate where all unbelievers are killed.
They provided 17 of the 9/11 hijackers from Saudi Arabia.
They are the major backers of Al Qaeda spiritually and financially.
You want to support these people, tell them that their world view is OK for the sake of selling furniture or kitchen utensils?

Meli
10-03-2012, 02:28 AM
what were the women doing ON the furniture :D

Meli
10-03-2012, 02:33 AM
Ikea is in strife in Sweden for airbrushing women out of it's catalogue on it's Saudi site in an effort to "play nice" with the Saudis and their ridiculous Medieval views on women.
Women can't drive, can't go out of the home without a male's permission, have only a limited vote and are suject to all sorts of abuse.
Are jailed and flogged for adultery if they are raped.
Nice culture, but that's all OK they are favourite allies!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/ikea-airbrushes-women-from-its-saudi-catalogue-8193204.html

Ah come off it guys, this is bloody disgraceful.

A company as big as Ikea pandering for profit.

"Ikea said it regretted the move but did not indicate whether it planned to stop distribution of its Saudi catalogue. "We should have reacted and realised that excluding women from the Saudi Arabian version of the catalogue is in conflict with Ikea group values," a spokeswoman said."

Don't pick on sophie for bringing it to attention.
Do the right thing and boycott Ikea

Meli
10-03-2012, 02:41 AM
Aww, c'mon Waddie. I don't think you are being fair to Sophie here. She's one of my imaginary friends, and I'd like to think that she gets the respect that she deserves.

Sophie may be a touch too aggressive for here BUT she commands my respect and deserves the respect of any that can see beyond the agro and look at the reality of what she posts.
Her posts are almost always well founded in fact.

Sneering at her is but a poor attack on her undoubted intellect.

Back off :mad: Sophie has done nothing more than posted something about a BIG international company and their willingness to stoop to anything to get a market.
Do you think this is OK? yes or no?

Simple question

skuthorp
10-03-2012, 04:14 AM
I agree Meli, and the west is quite prepared to put up with Wahabist excesses for the sake of not so cheap oil.

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 05:04 AM
This is only a "nonsenical rant" if you are a guy who supports conservative right wing ideologies!

Saudi Arabia's treatment of women is appalling, truly horrific and any pandering to this rubbish is supporting that system.

Seriously Sophie, you really do come off as having a huge sexist chip on your shoulder. . .

What about women that support conservative right wing ideologies? How far do you personally go to make sure that no Saudi supplied gasoline or diesel makes it into your car? How is your home and office electricity produced? What do you do for heat? Do you benefit from the sales of UK produced weapons systems to the Kingdom?

Ultimately do more Western men or women shop at Ikea?

Here's a hint, 60% of Ikea's customers are women. . .

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 05:06 AM
Do the right thing and boycott IkeaI've been to Ikea once; I was dragged kicking and screaming. I didn't even find about the meatballs until after we had left. I'm never going back.

Curtism
10-03-2012, 05:14 AM
They have meatballs? Gravy or red-sauce? Iquiring minds want to know.

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 05:19 AM
They have meatballs? Gravy or red-sauce?swedish. . .

Meli
10-03-2012, 05:20 AM
Ikea is a horrible place with horrible stuff.
Thats the first question I used to ask potential furniture restoration clients after establishing it was less than 5 years old (Did you get it from Ikea?):rolleyes:

Curtism
10-03-2012, 05:33 AM
swedish. . .

Haha . . . duh-me

I suppose they airbrush those out of their ads in certain countries too.

LeeG
10-03-2012, 07:03 AM
Ahh, excellent. We've gone from a nonsensical rant about Saudi Arabia, to to personal attacks, in little more than a baker's dozen...

FWIW, to the OP, I do not find it offensive that advertisers couch their wares in a manner consistent with the culture in which they are selling their goods, no matter my thoughts on the culture itself.

Hey, I tried the obvious tangent

Flying Orca
10-03-2012, 07:19 AM
I'm with Sophie on this. IKEA is being bloody stupid, shortsighted, and socially irresponsible. I can only hope that they lose enough sales from their non-Saudi customers to underscore the learning opportunity.

Keith Wilson
10-03-2012, 07:47 AM
Oh, for the love of God. . . I presume it's a special edition of the catalog for Saudi Arabia, right? They don't show bottles of beer or packages of sliced ham on the dining room tables either. It's called "not offending local sensibilities." Yes, Saudi laws and attitudes about women (and those of ultra-conservative Islam in general) are loathsome, medieval at best, and worthy of the strongest condemnation, but what Ikea did is hardly worthy of mention.

And really, gentlemen, agree or disagree, I think we ought to be a bit more polite to Sophie. Everybody else, too.

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 08:19 AM
Oh, for the love of God. . . I presume it's a special edition of the catalog for Saudi Arabia, right? They don't show bottles of beer or packages of sliced ham on the dining room tables either. It's called "not offending local sensibilities." Yes, Saudi laws and attitudes about women (and those of ultra-conservative Islam in general) are loathsome, medieval at best, and worthy of the strongest condemnation, but what Ikea did is hardly worthy of mention.

And really, gentlemen, agree or disagree, I think we ought to be a bit more polite to Sophie. Everybody else, too.

Frankly I think you are way off on this one Keith.
I can understand "not offending local sensibilities" with alcohol etc. they are inanimate objects and reflect dietary restrictions for whatever reasons.
But to deliberately delete out of existence women because these people believe that women are somehow second class people is totally wrong and shows the women of that country that we agree with their suppression and abuse in the middle of them fighting to get equality.

Should we have been careful "not to offend local sensibilities" when they were going to flog and imprison a woman because she had been gang raped by her ex and his mates who only got short sentences! She was lucky not to get the death sentence which is common for women convicted of adultery! which is the usual crime for women who are raped!
Or should there have been no international campaign to stop the Iranian woman being stoned to death for adultery while the men receive minor prison sentences.

The young Pakistani woman ordered to be gang raped by 28 guys as a punishment for something her younger brother had done, 4 of the guys have received minor jail sentences. the woman only avoided jail because of international outcry!

It's bad enough that these things happen in a countries where international pressure means so little but to acquiesce to such oppression is totally opposed to
the love of God.
Sorry but you are way wrong on this one Keith!

Keith Wilson
10-03-2012, 08:32 AM
. . . and shows the women of that country that we agree with their suppression and abuseNah. Taking the pictures of female models (in currently fashionable western clothes, no doubt) out of the catalog, while certainly undesirable, is a very minor symbolic act, and it's debatable whether it harms anyone, or whether making an issue of it would benefit anyone.

The other incidents you mention come under 'loathsome and medieval', and deserve the strongest condemnation possible.

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 08:41 AM
No Keith I think you are wrong.
Removing the images of women from the catalogues sends the signal that you accept the principle that women are second class citizens and that images of women not totally shrouded in a cage are likely to drive men to sexual frenzy. How bl**dy ridiculous is that and it's wrong to acquiesce to that. It is all part of a whole spectrum of behaviour to women that those other examples are just part of.
It's wrong in all ways.

You either agree with the principal that all men and women are equal or you don't.

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 08:50 AM
Perhaps Ikea should have just airbrushed a hijab over the women's heads. . .

Keith Wilson
10-03-2012, 09:06 AM
Removing the images of women from the catalogues sends the signal that you accept the principle that women are second class citizens . . Not at all. It sends the message that Ikea wants to sell furniture in Saudi Arabia without pissing off the troglodytes. Yes, I agree, it's probably wrong. It's also trivial. There are plenty of genuinely awful things done to women in Saudi Arabia which deserve our attention and outrage.

htom
10-03-2012, 09:50 AM
I wonder if they airbrushed away the alcoholic drinks in the party pictures? /rimshot/

I also wonder if this is the first step in a passive-aggressive way of dealing with some kind of official complaint? They did a great job of totally removing the women's images, filling in counter tops, paintings, ... it's as if they had not been there for the photo shoot. When the uproar dies down, next edition of the catalog, the women's images remain as white silhouettes. Next edition, both genders are red and green silhouettes -- but you have to figure out by shape, not color, which is which.

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 10:19 AM
Not at all. It sends the message that Ikea wants to sell furniture in Saudi Arabia without pissing off the troglodytes. Yes, I agree, it's probably wrong. It's also trivial. There are plenty of genuinely awful things done to women in Saudi Arabia which deserve our attention and outrage.

Sophie suggests boycotts and other methods of isolating the Saudi's. Is this really the best way to encourage their society and culture to continue to evolve towards Western ideals of treatment of women? Or would isolation of Saudi Arabia and IKEA for something like this play right into the ultra conservative and militant Isamists' hands? Its what they want, they want the West and our 'progressive' influence out of their sphere of control.

Keith Wilson
10-03-2012, 10:22 AM
Now that's a useful topic: How can we get the Saudis and other conservative Muslims to treat women halfway decently? What tactics would be most effective?

LeeG
10-03-2012, 10:44 AM
Send over women nuclear engineers

http://theenergycollective.com/ansorg/63481/saudi-arabia-s-nuclear-energy-ambitions

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-03-2012, 11:39 AM
I just go for the meatballs. . .

I'm not sure that a Saudi Ikea meatball would taste the same.

leikec
10-03-2012, 11:47 AM
I can't hardly keep track of the places I'm supposed to boycott--and now we're adding IKEA? I know I'm supposed to be boycotting Target for some horrible, Anti American atrocity, and Lowes, and Home Depot, and Walmart, and BP, and Exxon Mobil, and McDonalds, and Chick-Fil-A, and Sears, and 7-Eleven, and Shell, and Costco, and, and....

Is there anywhere I can shop anymore--besides the local deli? Oh wait--they serve bacon on Saturdays, and the free range chickens are upset about the high sodium in the chicken soup.

It's ok, I can grow my own food, make my own furniture, and at my age, I'm producing quite a bit of gas...and there has to be an environmentally sensitive way to recycle my methane. :D

But of course I will need to make sure my seed for the crops I plant next spring (should I survive through the winter after throwing out all of my tainted clothing) doesn't come from Monsanto.

It is really hard to find the energy to keep a sustainable degree of outrage against...everything.

Jeff C

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 11:53 AM
It is really hard to find the energy to keep a sustainable degree of outrage against...everything.

Jeff C


just stop feeding the trolls and you'll be good. . .:d

Bob Adams
10-03-2012, 11:53 AM
What an archaic idea.














NOBODY airbrushes in the Photoshop age!!!;)


BTW, I in no way condone the way women in some cultures are treated as unequal to men.

leikec
10-03-2012, 11:55 AM
just stop feeding the trolls and you'll be good. . .:d


You first.... :D


Jeff C

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 11:55 AM
BTW, I in no way condone the way women in some cultures are treated as unequal to men.

Like we're supposed to believe that.;)

Bob Adams
10-03-2012, 11:59 AM
Like we're supposed to believe that.;)

Dude...I've been married 30+ years. You will learn with time.

LeeG
10-03-2012, 12:18 PM
What an archaic idea.














NOBODY airbrushes in the Photoshop age!!!;)


BTW, I in no way condone the way women in some cultures are treated as unequal to men.

Yep, brushed aluminum never looked that good

Gerarddm
10-03-2012, 12:51 PM
Market capitalism is the best proven way of suborning other cultures. Look at China- Mao would CROAK ( O, he's dead. Well, anyway... ) if he saw China today. Lenin too.

If we hadn't had a stupid embargo on Cuba lo these many years, Castro would have been out on his butt long ago.

Incidentally, I might note that ultra-conservative Jews in the US airbrushed Hillary out of that iconic killing-bin-Laden Situation Room photograph. Funny how fundamentalists of any stripe are so intimidated/awed by the magnificence of women.

An interesting point is that one important reason for the backwardness of Muslim societies is the cultural and economic subjugation of women- they are depriving themselves of the productivity and potential brainpower of at least half their population.

B_B
10-03-2012, 01:17 PM
This is only a "nonsenical rant" if you are a guy who supports conservative right wing ideologies! ...
Ha! I'm a right winger - good one. :D Tell that the pefjr.

B_B
10-03-2012, 01:18 PM
Oh, for the love of God. . . I presume it's a special edition of the catalog for Saudi Arabia, right? They don't show bottles of beer or packages of sliced ham on the dining room tables either. It's called "not offending local sensibilities." Yes, Saudi laws and attitudes about women (and those of ultra-conservative Islam in general) are loathsome, medieval at best, and worthy of the strongest condemnation, but what Ikea did is hardly worthy of mention.

And really, gentlemen, agree or disagree, I think we ought to be a bit more polite to Sophie. Everybody else, too.


Nah. Taking the pictures of female models (in currently fashionable western clothes, no doubt) out of the catalog, while certainly undesirable, is a very minor symbolic act, and it's debatable whether it harms anyone, or whether making an issue of it would benefit anyone.

The other incidents you mention come under 'loathsome and medieval', and deserve the strongest condemnation possible.

Two excellent posts, thanks!

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 01:47 PM
Not at all. It sends the message that Ikea wants to sell furniture in Saudi Arabia without pissing off the troglodytes. Yes, I agree, it's probably wrong. It's also trivial. There are plenty of genuinely awful things done to women in Saudi Arabia which deserve our attention and outrage.

Keith there are a whole string of issues that people do actually take action on these days with regard to the treatment of women in these areas and protesting to Ikea will make companies more aware of the issues. There is talk of a petition protest being formed but that hasn't happened yet.
No-one believes that Ikea will stop, I doubt there will be any sort of boycott beyond an individual one, I haven't said that people should organise a boycott. Protest will take different forms and in the US will be very little other than news stories but every bit counts.
In Sweden because of it's very strong laws on equality there is a lot more room to embarrass them and to make other companies aware that this is wrong.
It's only by years of small steps that eventually a cumulative pressure causes change. Look how many years of small steps of protest and comment before companies and govt's reacted over Apartheid. No one issue is ever enough to do something like that but the repeated pressure is what causes change
Dismissing something as not worth bothering about when in fact it is the accumulation of all those seemingly insignificant issues and their responses that are important.
But the most important point is giving support to the women's movement in these countries by making a noise about the big and the little incidents, it gives them heart to know that they are noticed and that there is support. This is how women got their rights in the Western world, lots of small steps, bringing things out into the light of day.

So I still think you are wrong when you agree that the act is wrong and that it's trivial and not worth commenting on.

Keith Wilson
10-03-2012, 02:15 PM
Perhaps. I doubt hassling Ikea will have the slightest effect on the Saudis, but I could be wrong. But that's more a difference over tactics than principle.

I still think it would be more useful to consider the larger question: What would be the most effective way to convince the Saudis and other conservative Muslims to treat women halfway decently?

Flying Orca
10-03-2012, 02:31 PM
I favour sending 'em nothing but female diplomats. :D

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 02:33 PM
Perhaps. I doubt hassling Ikea will have the slightest effect on the Saudis, but I could be wrong. But that's more a difference over tactics than principle.

I still think it would be more useful to consider the larger question: What would be the most effective way to convince the Saudis and other conservative Muslims to treat women halfway decently?

Is there no room in that reasonable mind for justifiable outrage Keith???

Keith Wilson
10-03-2012, 02:38 PM
Sure, but not about Ikea catalogs. The Saudis do some genuinely outrageous things; Sophie listed some.

B_B
10-03-2012, 02:41 PM
Is there no room in that reasonable mind for justifiable outrage Keith???
What exactly are we supposed to be outraged by: a company which does business in a cultural environment and tries to work within that framework to sell its wares, or Saudi mistreatment of women?

One is damnable, the other, meh; IKEA made a calculation and forgot to include optics at home and the rest of their market (i.e. the USA) in their calculation.

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 02:44 PM
What exactly are we supposed to be outraged by. . .I'm just trying to understand Sophie. . .

L.W. Baxter
10-03-2012, 02:45 PM
Do we owe any sensitivity or tolerance to cultures and social mores we consider unenlightened?

And if we don't, then do the words tolerance and sensitivity have any meaning? Do we celebrate diversity only until it becomes diverse in a meaningful way?

B_B
10-03-2012, 03:00 PM
I'm just trying to understand Sophie. . .
But you were asking Keith. ;)

The OP reads to me like a handful of facts and a fistful of vitriol thrown in the general direction of a well thought out argument.

edited for Pless.

Flying Orca
10-03-2012, 03:03 PM
Do we owe any sensitivity or tolerance to cultures and social mores we consider unenlightened?

My serious answer? Only so far as they do not violate what we have voluntarily agreed (through the United Nations) to uphold as univeral human rights.


And if we don't, then do the words tolerance and sensitivity have any meaning?

Sure; they mean we'll tolerate and be sensitive to your differences as long as you meet a minimum standard. Nothing so hard about that.


Do we celebrate diversity only until it becomes diverse in a meaningful way?

I don't think support for universal human rights is the only meaningful form of diversity... do you?

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 03:04 PM
But you were asking Keith. ;)

The OP reads to me to be a handful of facts and a fistful of vitriol thrown in the general direction of a well thought out argument.

To go on a tangent:
Sophie's argument reminds me (rightly or wrongly) of pro-choice people who get worked up when people in China or India (and increasingly, apparently, in 'our' parts of the world) choose to abort female fetuses. We are outraged at the thought. Yet every argument which is made for choice here applies there; some, the economic hardship argument for example, apply much more forcefully there.

We like to have our cake and eat it too.
We like to have our Saudi oil and burn it too.
We like to, most of all, keep our sense of superiority intact.

This is where it goes off the rails for me. . .


This is only a "nonsenical rant" if you are a guy who supports conservative right wing ideologies!

When Sophie lets her slip show, and throws a jab at men when in this case if we are to take her argument solely against Ikea, its clear that western women share as much blame as western men do. . .

B_B
10-03-2012, 03:08 PM
This is where it goes off the rails for me. . .
Sorry Y:o
To me it was off the rails by post 1.

WX
10-03-2012, 04:23 PM
From the news article I read on it (BBC) it was a local company responsible for printing the Saudi version who left out the women, not the IKEA company.

Hwyl
10-03-2012, 05:10 PM
From the news article I read on it (BBC) it was a local company responsible for printing the Saudi version who left out the women, not the IKEA company.

Actually a franchisee.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19786862

Concordia...41
10-03-2012, 05:15 PM
Ahh, excellent. We've gone from a nonsensical rant about Saudi Arabia, to to personal attacks, in little more than a baker's dozen...

FWIW, to the OP, I do not find it offensive that advertisers couch their wares in a manner consistent with the culture in which they are selling their goods, no matter my thoughts on the culture itself.

Agreed Again.

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 05:29 PM
Do we owe any sensitivity or tolerance to cultures and social mores we consider unenlightened?

And if we don't, then do the words tolerance and sensitivity have any meaning? Do we celebrate diversity only until it becomes diverse in a meaningful way?
Replace women's rights in this issue for slavery!
Would your reaction be the same?

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 05:30 PM
Not according to IKEA:

Thank you Donn!!
It's not often I get to say that:D

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 05:41 PM
Perhaps. I doubt hassling Ikea will have the slightest effect on the Saudis, but I could be wrong. But that's more a difference over tactics than principle.

I still think it would be more useful to consider the larger question: What would be the most effective way to convince the Saudis and other conservative Muslims to treat women halfway decently?

Keith it's a case of every little bit of pressure and commentary that counts.
Why do you think they finally broke down and "granted", women a limited vote if it wasn't for the growing support that the Saudi women's movement is receiving.
There are heaps of economic and cultural things that could be done but they hold the oil card so obviously it won't happen that way. It will happen by keeping all the little things in the spotlight and not allowing them to be ignored because they are trivial. That is how a campaign is run, every little thing. As aloof and protected by oil as the Saudi regime may be they do still feel the pressure. It is the religious leaders in the country who are the real trouble.
Do you think we would've seen that lone female Saudi athlete if the mullahs had been allowed to have their say.
She received a standing ovation at every appearance and was one of the true stars of the Olympics. That happened because of a lot of brave women over there fighting and suffering, they are jailed and often beaten every time they take a stand, by the courts and by their families.
Publicity is their only weapon and their only shield.

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 05:46 PM
Don't bother. The IKEA statement basically reduces your OP to rubbish.

Spoken with all the fervour of the Donn we all so admire.:rolleyes:
Pity you don't follow the argument!

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 05:48 PM
This is where it goes off the rails for me. . .



When Sophie lets her slip show, and throws a jab at men when in this case if we are to take her argument solely against Ikea, its clear that western women share as much blame as western men do. . .

I'm a jeans and Tshirt girl actually. I don't think I even own a slip:D

L.W. Baxter
10-03-2012, 05:49 PM
Replace women's rights in this issue for slavery!
Would your reaction be the same?

My reaction always varies according to the strategic use of exclamation points!

I'm not here to praise or to bury Ikea, but I don't think their careful reworking of advertising images to fit their target audience is really akin to supporting slavery.

I asked my questions because this relates to other events, such as cartoons of the prophet Muhammed provoking a strong reaction from Muslim Fundamentalists, etc.

There's lots of fuzzy lines between extremes here, but taking Ikea to task on this is extremist thinking itself.

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 05:56 PM
My reaction always varies according to the strategic use of exclamation points!

I'm not here to praise or to bury Ikea, but I don't think their careful reworking of advertising images to fit their target audience is really akin to supporting slavery.

I asked my questions because this relates to other events, such as cartoons of the prophet Muhammed provoking a strong reaction from Muslim Fundamentalists, etc.

There's lots of fuzzy lines between extremes here, but taking Ikea to task on this is extremist thinking itself.

And how do you see a link between cartoons satirising a religious leader, which are rude and the reaction of bombings and murder attempts as in anyway a parallel to the fight for equality.
I guess you could say that they are equal in that the violencethat was displayed about the cartoons was out in the public eye whereas the violence against women is largely hidden. But it is done by the same people, backed by the same extremist ideology and it's innocent people who are harmed in both cases. All for using the Rights enshrined in your constitution and Bill of Rights and in the UN Declaration of Human rights.
Highlighting acts how ever trivial is the way to get nonviolent change.

Phillip Allen
10-03-2012, 05:57 PM
what ever happened to the hand that rocks the cradle ruling the world?

L.W. Baxter
10-03-2012, 05:58 PM
...I don't think support for universal human rights is the only meaningful form of diversity... do you?

I'm confused by this line. What I meant by "Do we celebrate diversity only until it becomes diverse in a meaningful way?", is, if we are setting the standards for what qualifies as acceptable diverse human behavior, are we really accepting of diversity. I don't mean to suggest that we should honor all kinds of human behavior, but perhaps we should be careful to revisit our assumptions now and then.

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 06:00 PM
what ever happened to the hand that rocks the cradle ruling the world?


Look around the world and see how that's working out for that hand in most cases Phillip!

L.W. Baxter
10-03-2012, 06:02 PM
And how do you see a link between cartoons satirising a religious leader, which are rude and the reaction of bombings and murder attempts as in anyway a parallel to the fight for equality.
I guess you could say that they are equal in that the violencethat was displayed about the cartoons was out in the public eye whereas the violence against women is largely hidden. But it is done by the same people, backed by the same extremist ideology and it's innocent people who are harmed in both cases. All for using the Rights enshrined in your constitution and Bill of Rights and in the UN Declaration of Human rights.
Highlighting acts how ever trivial is the way to get nonviolent change.

I apologize but I can't make sense of this.

Should we publish our cartoons of Muhammed humping a camel or not?

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 06:13 PM
I apologize but I can't make sense of this.

Should we publish our cartoons of Muhammed humping a camel or not?

Is there really a need for that last bit? You couldn't find a way to say it without being crude I guess! Sad!
But if that's what you want to do then you have every legal right under all of those documents I listed. Women have the right to be treated with equality and dignity everywhere as well.
You could try a little test for yourself and be as brave as the women of saudi arabia and many other places and defy the mullahs by acting in public where they have no protection other than their own courage. Try taking your publishing fantasies to Saudi Arabia!

Farfalla
10-03-2012, 06:27 PM
Keith, you talked about trivial actions not being worth fussing about.
How trivial was it for a woman to refuse to ride in the back seat on a bus?

L.W. Baxter
10-03-2012, 07:22 PM
Is there really a need for that last bit? You couldn't find a way to say it without being crude I guess! Sad!
But if that's what you want to do then you have every legal right under all of those documents I listed. Women have the right to be treated with equality and dignity everywhere as well.
You could try a little test for yourself and be as brave as the women of saudi arabia and many other places and defy the mullahs by acting in public where they have no protection other than their own courage. Try taking your publishing fantasies to Saudi Arabia!

Are we talking about what is legal or what is Right? Obviously, it's legal for Ikea to remove an image from their advertising. But you are taking them to task, so I assume you think it is Wrong.

So, I'll put it to you again, is it Wrong to publish a cartoon of Muhammed fornicating with a dromedary?

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 07:29 PM
So, I'll put it to you again, is it Wrong to publish a cartoon of Muhammed fornicating with a dromedary?you're not suggesting that we boycott. . .


Denmark???

Paul Pless
10-03-2012, 07:29 PM
What is it that we buy from Denmark anyways?

jsjpd1
10-03-2012, 07:46 PM
^cookies.

L.W. Baxter
10-03-2012, 08:11 PM
I haven't had a danish in years!!!:mad:

The Bigfella
10-04-2012, 12:07 AM
Hey... you leave Denmark alone. Hands off our Princess.

Larks
10-04-2012, 12:17 AM
Some would consider it ridiculous and medieval to castigate another culture because of their traditions and beliefs, no matter how much they may oppose our own traditions and beliefs.

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 03:33 AM
Are we talking about what is legal or what is Right? Obviously, it's legal for Ikea to remove an image from their advertising. But you are taking them to task, so I assume you think it is Wrong.

So, I'll put it to you again, is it Wrong to publish a cartoon of Muhammed fornicating with a dromedary?

If you can't figure out what the difference is then far be it from me to interrupt your infantile entertainment with your talk about pornographic images. if verbalising them like a 3 year old discovering swear words is a thrill go right on doing it.
I've given you all the answer an intelligent adult would need. But then you are just enjoying your own little fantasy game so play away!!

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 03:42 AM
Some would consider it ridiculous and medieval to castigate another culture because of their traditions and beliefs, no matter how much they may oppose our own traditions and beliefs.

Well i'll assume you actually mean that comment seriously and respond to it.
Fighting for the rights that are supposedly the core of the UN Declaration of Rights, namely equality and freedom from abuse is what this is about. if you actually do believe that it's appropriate for women to be discriminated against because of the religious ideology of a few extremists then that's up to you. the fight for equal rights for women is just as valid as the fight against slavery or the horrors of war. all involve the subjugation and abuse of human beings because of a belief in superiority.
If you do in fact believe that the Wahabiist ideas about women are fine and shouldn't be challenged because they are part of another culture then I'm sure you were sad when Apartheid was defeated or the ethnic cleansing programs of the Serbs and Croats in the Balkans. All rooted in their culture and according to you they should not be criticised. What a wonderful world you would wish upon us all!

Larks
10-04-2012, 05:15 AM
Well i'll assume you actually mean that comment seriously and respond to it.
Fighting for the rights that are supposedly the core of the UN Declaration of Rights, namely equality and freedom from abuse is what this is about. if you actually do believe that it's appropriate for women to be discriminated against because of the religious ideology of a few extremists then that's up to you. the fight for equal rights for women is just as valid as the fight against slavery or the horrors of war. all involve the subjugation and abuse of human beings because of a belief in superiority.
If you do in fact believe that the Wahabiist ideas about women are fine and shouldn't be challenged because they are part of another culture then I'm sure you were sad when Apartheid was defeated or the ethnic cleansing programs of the Serbs and Croats in the Balkans. All rooted in their culture and according to you they should not be criticised. What a wonderful world you would wish upon us all!

Although I did make the comment in all seriousness, it doesn't offer you the opportunity to take the magnificent leaps in assumptions on my opinions that you have.

I certainly DO NOT agree with some of the ideologies of "a few extremists" personally and would not wish them on anyone else, however I have travelled extensively throughout other areas of the middle east and in my experience your comment "a few extremists" is the most relevant in your post. I was certainly aware of what appeared to be a certain level of subjugation of women in some areas but, as far as I could see throughout Djibouti, Ethiopia, Sudan, Egypt, Israel, Turkey, Jordan Syria and so on, middle eastern women on the whole were very highly respected and, in fact, I'd say they were treated more politely and with more respect than women in the western world.

The concept of airbrushing women out of advertising brochures going to the middle east is more than likely actually more out of respect for women and the conservative culture that they live in than anything else.

Because pornography is mostly banned and women do dress very modestly, magazine images, advertising and movies showing western women in western dress are often considered to be very risqué and such images are pretty much the basis of the image that many middle eastern men and women form of what western society is like. IE they form an image that western women are permissive and undeserving of respect.

My point is, although possibly poorly articulated, that a very conservative middle eastern society does not necessarily equate to subjugation of women and abuse of human rights and it pays to look beyond our own prejudices before judging another society as inferior to our own or any other.

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 06:30 AM
Larks,


Posted by Larks
it doesn't offer you the opportunity to take the magnificent leaps in assumptions on my opinions that you have.

I didn't make any assumptions about what you believed, if you read what I wrote i said quite clearly



If you do in fact believe that the Wahabiist ideas about women are fine and shouldn't be challenged because they are part of another culture then I'm sure you were sad

So there was no attempt to claim that you believed these things to be true but rather to present the point that anyone supporting the Wahabiist position was likely to support equally repugnant positions that victimised people purely on the basis that they viewed them as lesser beings and therefore it was fine to abuse them. I went on to give examples of such repugnant refimes. At no time did I claim that you actually supported them.

I understand what you are saying but this case refers to Saudi Arabia and women are most definitely not treated in an appropriate way at all. The death sentence for adultery. Floggings and jail for being raped!
As for your comments about the "risque images", did you actually have a look at the images on the site linked to?
they are not risque by any stretch of the imagination, no matter how perverse the viewer may be.
If Saudi women were being treated so well why would they be fighting for their freedom and risking jail and assault on a regular basis?
The Wahabiists have only really got a ground in Sudan of those countries mentioned, I don't know if you remember the Sudanese woman reporter who was recently sentenced to be publicly flogged for wearing pants!

So the benevolent and compassionate side of things is part of the Koran but all these extremist and very repugnant behaviours are linked to the ultra conservative Islamic sects like the Wahabiists and the like. Because of their wealth in Saudi arabia they are the backbone of all the extremist militant Islamic groups across Asia and Africa. I have Muslim friends and they are appalled by the behaviour of this lot. did you follow the protests in Bahrain where the saudis came in and helped the regime fight the protesters. Doctors have been jailed for long sentences for treating injured protesters. These are not your moderate Muslims by any stretch of the imagination.

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 06:37 AM
I find it in extremely bad taste and really disgusting that a member of this forum has taken advantage of this thread to gratuitously post abusive and pornographic comments about Islamic religious figures when there was no need to be that specific.
What was done for his own entertainment is offensive not only to the Muslim members of this forum but is totally unnecessary and inappropriate considering the public nature of this forum. I think the act itself is repugnant, there was absolutely no need to phrase the comments in that way, he could have easily made his point in a far more appropriate way.:arg

The Bigfella
10-04-2012, 06:50 AM
Larks,
I understand what you are saying but this case refers to saudi arabia and women are most definitely not treated in an appropriate way at all. The death sentence for adultery. Floggings and jail for being raped!
As for your comments about the "risque images", did you actually have a look at the images on the site linked to?
they are not risque by any stretch of the imagination, no matter how perverse the viewer may be.
If Saudi women were being treated so well why would they be fighting for their freedom and risking jail and assault on a regular basis?
The Wahabiists have only really got a ground in Sudan of those countries mentioned, I don't know if you remember the Sudanese woman reporter who was recently sentenced to be publicly flogged for wearing pants!

So the benevolent and compassionate side of things is part of the Koran but all these extremist and very repugnant behaviours are linked to the ultra conservative Islamic sects like the Wahabiists and the like. Because of their wealth in Saudi arabia they are the backbone of all the extremist militant Islamic groups across Asia and Africa. I have Muslim friends and they are appalled by the behaviour of this lot. did you follow the protests in Bahrain where the saudis came in and helped the regime fight the protesters. Doctors have been jailed for long sentences for treating injured protesters. These are not your moderate Muslims by any stretch of the imagination.

How about some perspective?

According to the INTERPOL data, for murder, the rate in 2000 was 0.71 per 100,000 population for Saudi Arabia, 1.10 for Japan, and 5.51 for USA. For rape, the rate in 2000 was 0.14 for Saudi Arabia, compared with 1.78 for Japan and 32.05 for USA. For robbery, the rate in 2000 was 0.14 for Saudi Arabia, 4.08 for Japan, and 144.92 for USA. For aggravated assault, the rate in 2000 was 0.12 for Saudi Arabia, 23.78 for Japan, and 323.62 for USA. For burglary, the rate in 2000 was 0.05 for Saudi Arabia, 233.60 for Japan, and 728.42 for USA. The rate of larceny for 2000 was 79.71 for Saudi Arabia, 1401.26 for Japan, and 2475.27 for USA. The rate for motor vehicle theft in 2000 was 76.25 for Saudi Arabia, compared with 44.28 for Japan and 414.17 for USA. The rate for all index offenses combined was 157.12 for Saudi Arabia, compared with 1709.88 for Japan and 4123.97 for USA.

The sharia sets forth rigorous requirements for proof of adultery or fornication. For the crime of adultery, four witnesses to the act must swear to having witnessed the crime, and if such an accusation does not hold up in court, the witnesses are then liable to punishment.

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 07:02 AM
Beheadings, stonings, public floggings, women jailed for adultery after being raped. yes let's have some perspective!
If Saudi Arabia is such a sweet benevolent peace loving place then why is it one of the major players when it comes to capital punishment. Time to get real!

Keith Wilson
10-04-2012, 07:38 AM
If Saudi Arabia is such a sweet benevolent peace loving place . . . I don't think anyone is defending the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia. I'm certainly not; I don't see how anyone could. But I don't think that making a fuss about the Ikea catalog is an effective way to improve things.

Larks
10-04-2012, 07:44 AM
.......


There is evidence that some women in Saudi Arabia do not want change. Even many advocates of reform reject Western critics, for "failing to understand the uniqueness of Saudi society." [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-nyt-femalef-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-time-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-post-reaction-8) Journalist Maha Akeel (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maha_Akeel&action=edit&redlink=1) is a frequent critic of her country's patriarchal customs. Nonetheless, she agrees that Westerners criticize what they do not understand. "Look, we are not asking for ... women's rights according to Western values or lifestyles ... We want things according to what Islam says. Look at our history, our role models."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-dhahran-9)

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 07:44 AM
I don't think anyone is defending the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia. I'm certainly not; I don't see how anyone could. But I don't think that making a fuss about the Ikea catalog is an effective way to improve things.

Well there we will have to agree to disagree, the history of protest movements shows that once yo start a program of resistance and bringing a whole series of issues to the fore it is vital to keep the spotlight turned on the offending parties. I'm not claiming that this is any big campaign point but it is a useful point to make in the fight.
As I said, in the scheme of things a single woman refusing to sit in the back of the bus one day was no big deal but it was a catalyst.

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 07:52 AM
..
There is evidence that some women in Saudi Arabia do not want change. Even many advocates of reform reject Western critics, for "failing to understand the uniqueness of Saudi society." [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-nyt-femalef-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-time-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-post-reaction-8) Journalist Maha Akeel (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maha_Akeel&action=edit&redlink=1) is a frequent critic of her country's patriarchal customs. Nonetheless, she agrees that Westerners criticize what they do not understand. "Look, we are not asking for ... women's rights according to Western values or lifestyles ... We want things according to what Islam says. Look at our history, our role models."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-dhahran-9).....

And where have I asked for them to have western values and lifestyles? NOWHERE
The protests are about the basic violations of human rights that do occur on a regular basis. Try doing a little reading on those issues and you'll find plenty of support for change. Why do you think it's happening, just some made up stunt by bored westerners.

I don't know about the Australian press but there are several very good and prominent female Muslim journalists writing on the subject for the papers in the UK.

I'm at a loss in some ways to see why a bunch of middle class western guys would react so strongly as a few of you have, in defense of extremists like the Wahabiists.
I actually think it has a lot more to do with politics here than there!

Larks
10-04-2012, 07:58 AM
And where have I asked for them to have western values and lifestyles? NOWHERE
The protests are about the basic violations of human rights that do occur on a regular basis. Try doing a little reading on those issues and you'll find plenty of support for change. Why do you think it's happening, just some made up stunt by bored westerners.

I'm at a loss in some ways to see why a bunch of middle class western guys would react so strongly as a few of you have, in defense of extremists like the Wahabiists.
I actually think it has a lot more to do with politics here than there!

No-one is suggesting that you have asked for them to have western values and lifestyles, you really do make some grandiose leaps between the lines don't you. Nor are a bunch of middle class western guys reacting strongly, I'd suggest a middle class western female is doing enough of that for everyone here.

The salient point of my post is: Even many advocates of reform reject Western critics, for "failing to understand the uniqueness of Saudi society and Westerners criticize what they do not understand

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 08:07 AM
No-one is suggesting that you have asked for them to have western values and lifestyles, you really do make some grandiose leaps between the lines don't you. Nor are a bunch of middle class western guys reacting strongly, I'd suggest a middle class western female is doing enough of that for everyone here.

The salient point of my post is: Even many advocates of reform reject Western critics, for "failing to understand the uniqueness of Saudi society and Westerners criticize what they do not understand



If I haven't called for those things then what is the relevance of posting it , especially with all the bold and underlining!
If you didn't think you had a point to make then why post it?

And if you don't see the reactions here from some of you as strong then I would understand that because you share the views of a few of them from what I can see from your posts.
As I said go and read a few of the muslim women journalists writing for major papers in Europe and the UK and maybe you'll get out of the narrow perspective you have so far shown.
try Jasmin Alahabi_Brown for a start!

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 08:16 AM
There is evidence that some women in Saudi Arabia do not want change. Even many advocates of reform reject Western critics, for "failing to understand the uniqueness of Saudi society." [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-nyt-femalef-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-time-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-post-reaction-8) Journalist Maha Akeel (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maha_Akeel&action=edit&redlink=1) is a frequent critic of her country's patriarchal customs. Nonetheless, she agrees thatWesterners criticize what they do not understand. "Look, we are not asking for ... women's rights according to Western values or lifestyles ... We want things according to what Islam says. Look at our history, our role models."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-dhahran-9).....

these are the really important words in that quote.


We want things according to what Islam says. Look at our history, our role models.

The role models, the history and the core of Islam are far different to the Wahabiist's views, they are an extreme minority sect calling for their very narrow and fundamentalist interpretation of Islam which the vast majority of the Islamic world does not share at all. The whole head to toe concealment, the abuse of women, the laws keeping them as second class citizens are not part of mainstream Islam and have never ever been1 they are a few extreme zealots who want to create the World Caliphate and slaughter all unbelievers which is not something Islam preaches at all.
islam is a great religion with lots of emphasis on love and protecting people not this other crazy stuff.

Larks
10-04-2012, 08:32 AM
If I haven't called for those things then what is the relevance of posting it , especially with all the bold and underlining!
If you didn't think you had a point to make then why post it?

And if you don't see the reactions here from some of you as strong then I would understand that because you share the views of a few of them from what I can see from your posts.
As I said go and read a few of the muslim women journalists writing for major papers in Europe and the UK and maybe you'll get out of the narrow perspective you have so far shown.
try Jasmin Alahabi_Brown for a start!

Well now, there's the pot calling the kettle black.

But I will certainly read Yasmin Alibhai Brown, and may I suggest you read Maha Akeel if you haven't already, which is who my cut and paste referred to......just for the sake of broadening your own perspective.

Edited to add: Interesting reading, noting that Yasmin is a Ugandan born British journalist, Maha is a Saudi born Saudi journalist.

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 08:56 AM
Some of the negative perceptions surrounding Saudi women could be justified. After all, we are the only country that does not allow women to drive, though the government has declared numerous times that it has no objections to giving women licenses. Saudi women are also denied many of the rights granted to women in Islam. Under the Saudi system, male guardians control decisions concerning a woman’s education, employment, travel, marriage, divorce, childcare, legal proceedings and health care–basically, every aspect of her life. It is a system that renders half the country’s population helpless dependents.













Segregation hinders women’s daily activities and career advancement; but it is more rooted in local customs and traditions, as well as some–but certainly not all–religious interpretations within the country.












Understandably, driving is symbolic of Saudi women’s lack of freedom. However, in terms of rights, we have many other serious issues to consider. Until we are recognised as independent adults who have an equal standing in society as men, we will continue to be marginalised and discriminated against in various ways.








It began a few years ago when female writers, frustrated by censorship and restrictions in traditional media, created their own blogs and web pages to express their opinions more freely.


Western media’s coverage of Saudi women is a double-edged sword. Although Western media tend to be stereotypical and superficial in its coverage of Saudi women – primarily covering the driving ban, veiling and gender segregation – it also brings international attention to women’s issues, which puts pressure on public authorities. This dynamic was evident in several high-profile cases, such as the woman who was forcefully divorced from her husband because of “ancestral incompatibility” even though she was happily married with two children. She was imprisoned and the case was widely covered by national and international media. After two years in jail, she was granted a royal pardon and returned to her husband.



These are a selection of quotes from a couple of articles by Maha Akeel, the journalist you quoted before, that I found in a quick search.
I see absolutely nothing in there in conflict with what I have written, in fact it seems the crazy ravings of a middle class Western woman seem to reflect pretty much what Maha Akeel is on about!

She is a major activist for change in her country and considers that a lot of the things imposed





renders half the country’s population helpless dependents.








In fact she stresses the positive role of western media because

it also brings international attention to women’s issues, which puts pressure on public authorities.

Thank you for providing such a positive source for confirming all that I have been sayingBY:D

L.W. Baxter
10-04-2012, 10:13 AM
If you can't figure out what the difference is then far be it from me to interrupt your infantile entertainment with your talk about pornographic images. if verbalising them like a 3 year old discovering swear words is a thrill go right on doing it.
I've given you all the answer an intelligent adult would need. But then you are just enjoying your own little fantasy game so play away!!

You haven't given an answer at all. Should we exercise our free press by publishing satirical cartoons of the prophet of Islam, or not? You argue that including images offensive to Muslim fundamentalists in our advertising is an important part of the struggle for equal rights in Saudi Arabia. Is the same true for political cartoons, or not? Should we provoke Muslim hardliners with forbidden images, or not?

The closest you come to answering is to say that satirical cartoons are "rude". What's it gonna be?

B_B
10-04-2012, 11:52 AM
.......
There is evidence that some women in Saudi Arabia do not want change. Even many advocates of reform reject Western critics, for "failing to understand the uniqueness of Saudi society." [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-nyt-femalef-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-time-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-post-reaction-8) Journalist Maha Akeel (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maha_Akeel&action=edit&redlink=1) is a frequent critic of her country's patriarchal customs. Nonetheless, she agrees that Westerners criticize what they do not understand. "Look, we are not asking for ... women's rights according to Western values or lifestyles ... We want things according to what Islam says. Look at our history, our role models."[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_rights_in_Saudi_Arabia#cite_note-dhahran-9)
Not to mention that women themselves, as mothers, teach their children how to treat and be treated. It's what's called a culture. The parts within reinforce the other parts while sometimes straining against them.

While Sophie may not have called for 'western values or lifestyles' in Saudi Arabia, she's certainly demagoguing Saudi culture through a very specific western lens - I dare say there are some folk who believe Saudi culture is far too permissive when it comes to women's rights.

b.t.w. I thought this thread was about IKEA?

Kaa
10-04-2012, 12:31 PM
No this thread is all about the troll. Sophie has once again skillfully positioned herself as a lone women against a gaggle of intolerant patriarchal chauvinist pigs. . .

FTFY :-D

Kaa

B_B
10-04-2012, 12:45 PM
originally posted by paul pless http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=3552868#post3552868) no this thread is all about the troll. Sophie has once again skillfully positioned herself as a lone women against a gaggle of intolerant right wing patriarchal chauvinist pigs. . .ftfy :-d
kaa
ftfboy :D


edit: just realized "right wing" and "patriarchal chauvinist pigs" is a bit redundant - carry on then :d

Paul Pless
10-04-2012, 12:48 PM
Sophie, I really don't know why those two buffoons would misquote me like that. Its ridiculous and not funny in any way shape or form.

B_B
10-04-2012, 01:08 PM
...Sophie has once again skillfully positioned herself as a lone women against a gaggle of intolerant men

Sophie, I really don't know why those two buffoons would misquote me like that. Its ridiculous and not funny in any way shape or form.
Apologies. You did a good enough job without any he'p. :D

The Bigfella
10-04-2012, 04:34 PM
I'm sorry to see this. I came to Sophie's defence, but you mysoginists just can't leave well enough alone... can you?

How could you possibly think that Sophie would be a troll?

How could you possibly think that she just wants to attack men?

Oh, how could you?

Larks
10-04-2012, 06:17 PM
These are a selection of quotes from a couple of articles by Maha Akeel, the journalist you quoted before, that I found in a quick search.
I see absolutely nothing in there in conflict with what I have written, in fact it seems the crazy ravings of a middle class Western woman seem to reflect pretty much what Maha Akeel is on about!

She is a major activist for change in her country and considers that a lot of the things imposed


In fact she stresses the positive role of western media because


Thank you for providing such a positive source for confirming all that I have been sayingBY:D

She is indeed a rather amazing woman and her article is undeserving of you taking only the selected quotes:


Jeddah, Saudi Arabia - Perhaps one of the most misunderstood and stereotyped countries in the world is Saudi Arabia, particularly when it comes to its women.

Some of the negative perceptions surrounding Saudi women could be justified. After all, we are the only country that does not allow women to drive, though the government has declared numerous times that it has no objections to giving women licenses. Saudi women are also denied many of the rights granted to women in Islam. Under the Saudi system, male guardians control decisions concerning a woman’s education, employment, travel, marriage, divorce, childcare, legal proceedings and health care–basically, every aspect of her life. It is a system that renders half the country’s population helpless dependents.

Nevertheless, there are Western perceptions of Saudi women that need to be addressed objectively.

Whenever Western journalists visit Saudi Arabia, they meet Saudi women who are educated, employed, successful, prominent leaders in their communities. They ask them all kinds of questions and receive honest and transparent answers. However, these journalists often only report on the usual stereotypes–the hijab (headscarf) or niqab (a garment that covers a woman’s face and body), the segregation of men and women in most public and private institutions and, of course, the ban on driving.

Segregation hinders women’s daily activities and career advancement; but it is more rooted in local customs and traditions, as well as some–but certainly not all–religious interpretations within the country. Thus, it is not strictly or consistently enforced.

The hijab and niqab, comprise a religious and social issue that is not exclusive to Saudi Arabia. In Islam, women are expected to dress modestly, and every Muslim society has different views on what this means. Because Saudi Arabia is the place where Islam was born and where the holy cities of Mecca and Medina are located, people tend to respect modest dress in their public appearance.

But this aspect of Saudi women’s lives is often misunderstood. A friend of mine in a prominent government position was furious when she talked to an American journalist for two hours about Saudi women’s achievements, progress, obstacles and challenges only to be mentioned in passing in his report to describe how she covered her hair when he asked to take her picture.

When a picture of Saudi women is published in Western media, it usually portrays them wearing the black niqab, even though there are many who do not cover their face or their hair and do not mind being photographed without the face covering. This insistence on reinforcing certain images of Saudi women creates distrust and cynicism towards Western media.

As another friend said to a European journalist, it should not matter what ison my head, but what is in my head.

Many of the Saudi women who choose to wear the hijab or niqab are highly educated, intelligent, successful, working women. The headscarf or face covering does not prevent us from reaching our goals and objectives.

Whether I choose to cover my hair or not should not be a measure to judge me by. It should not define me as “conservative” or “liberal”. It should not indicate whether I’m oppressed or liberated because there are many factors that affect my decision to wear the hijab or niqab.

Understandably, driving is symbolic of Saudi women’s lack of freedom. However, in terms of rights, we have many other serious issues to consider. Until we are recognised as independent adults who have an equal standing in society as men, we will continue to be marginalised and discriminated against in various ways.

Despite the images perpetrated by Western media, Saudi women have come a long way and are increasingly recognised for our achievements despite the obstacles we face. We are managers of multi-billion dollar companies, world-renowned scientists, university deans, bank CEOs, deputy ministers, as well as the director of the UN Population Fund.

Western media should not trivialise our issues by focusing only on the way we dress or by our driving rights. We are gaining ground every day. Like other women around the world, achieving independence is an ongoing struggle for us, and one that deserves to be recognised in the media and elsewhere.



Perhaps we are in violent agreement, however this thread appeared to be little more than an opportunistic narrow minded "hatred" poke at a civilisation based on a poor marketing decision by a pretty ordinary furniture company and the perceptions of a middle class, middle aged British Feminist many miles from the civilisation in discussion.

(NB: The changes to the font are for some reason a result of the C&P, as with the bolding in the earlier posts, I don't seem to be able to correct it on here)

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 06:30 PM
She is indeed a rather amazing woman and her article is undeserving of you taking only the selected quotes:


Perhaps we are in violent agreement, however this thread appeared to be little more than an opportunistic narrow minded "hatred" poke at a civilisation based on a poor marketing decision by a pretty ordinary furniture company and the perceptions of a middle class, middle aged British Feminist many miles from the civilisation in discussion.

(NB: The changes to the font are for some reason a result of the C&P, as with the bolding in the earlier posts, I don't seem to be able to correct it on here)

If you are posting the whole source of my quotes where is the second article or did you perchance not realise that the material I quoted came from too articles. Or as I'm beginning to think, you don't actually read the articles that's why you could think that they are somehow an attack on the points I have raised.


Perhaps we are in violent agreement, however this appeared to be little more than an opportunistic narrow minded "hatred" poke at a middle class, middle aged British Feminist

Once again thank you for providing the material to prove my point

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 06:40 PM
Not to mention that women themselves, as mothers, teach their children how to treat and be treated. It's what's called a culture. The parts within reinforce the other parts while sometimes straining against them.

While Sophie may not have called for 'western values or lifestyles' in Saudi Arabia, she's certainly demagoguing Saudi culture through a very specific western lens - I dare say there are some folk who believe Saudi culture is far too permissive when it comes to women's rights.

b.t.w. I thought this thread was about IKEA?

Maybe you should get Donn to help you with your posts because you definitely shouldn't try to use "big" words when you have no idea of their actual meaning:D


b.t.w. I thought this thread was about IKEA?
you might want to get some advice on reading comprehension as well.:D

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 06:54 PM
Thank you Donn, "the gift of small things".

I was hoping you could explain a few of the words to Boston that he has misused but we can see that your sentiments lie more with the petty little point score. Sad, you had a chance to help a fellow forumite.

Larks
10-04-2012, 06:57 PM
If you are posting the whole source of my quotes where is the second article or did you perchance not realise that the material I quoted came from too articles. Or as I'm beginning to think, you don't actually read the articles that's why you could think that they are somehow an attack on the points I have raised.



Once again thank you for providing the material to prove my point

It's rather sad that your only solution to any discussion that you don't like or which doesn't follow your narrow objective is to falsely edit quotes of previous posters:


Just to correct anyone's misconceptions:

Original text:
Perhaps we are in violent agreement, however this thread appeared to be little more than an opportunistic narrow minded "hatred" poke at a civilisation based on a poor marketing decision by a pretty ordinary furniture company and the perceptions of a middle class, middle aged British Feminist many miles from the civilisation in discussion.

Sophies edited version:
Perhaps we are in violent agreement, however this appeared to be little more than an opportunistic narrow minded "hatred" poke at a middle class, middle aged British Feminist

Farfalla
10-04-2012, 07:07 PM
It's rather sad that your only solution to any discussion that you don't like or which doesn't follow your narrow objective is to falsely edit quotes of previous posters:


Just to correct anyone's misconceptions:

Original text:

Sophies edited version:

Funny when I look at my post I see that I mentioned the fact that you hadn't included the second article by Maha Akeel that I'd originally quoted from and that both articles taken asa whole clearly indictae that there is no conflict between what I have stated repeatedly and what she has written. So I think it's in fact you who are being selective.
Please show where I am in conflict with what she has stated, she and all the women activists in saudi arabia are concerned with the more serious aspects of the system that as she puts it


renders half the country’s population helpless dependents.






Maha Akeel also states that the attention of the Western press is of value to the Saudi Women's Movement because

it also brings international attention to women’s issues, which puts pressure on public authorities.

I repeated both of those quotes from her again because you seem determined to ignore them.
Please stop turning this into a personal attack and deal with the issues.

B_B
10-04-2012, 07:49 PM
Thank you Donn, "the gift of small things".

I was hoping you could explain a few of the words to Boston that he has misused but we can see that your sentiments lie more with the petty little point score. Sad, you had a chance to help a fellow forumite.
Who's Boston?
I'm quite unsure of my linguistic abilities; I can't wait to hear which words you think I've misused 'cause I can always improve.

epoxyboy
10-05-2012, 02:19 AM
Ikea is in strife in Sweden for airbrushing women out of it's catalogue on it's Saudi site in an effort to "play nice" with the Saudis and their ridiculous Medieval views on women.
Women can't drive, can't go out of the home without a male's permission, have only a limited vote and are suject to all sorts of abuse.
Are jailed and flogged for adultery if they are raped.
Nice culture, but that's all OK they are favourite allies!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/ikea-airbrushes-women-from-its-saudi-catalogue-8193204.html
I spent a week working in Saudi - cant say as I really enjoyed the experience. The almost total lack of visible female presence was really quite disconcerting, the heat was unbelievable, and to make things even worse I caught the first couple of days of Ramadan. It is hard country, and I can only guess that some of their culture is a consequence of trying to survive in a baking sandpit - tribal and family connections are everthing, and women as chattels was historically a way of facilitating alliances between families. All very medieval, but put it in the context of nomadic desert dwellers, and maybe there is a hint of method to the madness.
Air brushing things out of catalogues to suit local sensibilities is just good business sense, and personally I have more problem with models being airbrushed into unattainable visions of perfection in local advertising. That messes with young minds in just about every Western country on the planet. It would probably be depressing to see how many of our girls die from anorexia, compared with how many of their girls die because of the Saudi justice system. I suspect the answer would not reflect favourably on our society.

Pete

Garret
10-05-2012, 08:56 AM
A post or 2 above got me thinking. Isn't this really nothing more than a "next step" from all the doctoring of photos that's been done for years? Where's the outrage of airbrushing freckles? Does doing that mean that Life magazine supported regressive regimes?

Maybe we need to stop allowing women in photographs from wearing makeup? After all - what's the difference?

Before you jump my case - I have no issues with Saudi women working for equality & helping them to do so (in fact I support it) - but it needs to be on their terms, not ours.

Farfalla
10-05-2012, 09:10 AM
A post or 2 above got me thinking. Isn't this really nothing more than a "next step" from all the doctoring of photos that's been done for years? Where's the outrage of airbrushing freckles? Does doing that mean that Life magazine supported regressive regimes?

Maybe we need to stop allowing women in photographs from wearing makeup? After all - what's the difference?

Before you jump my case - I have no issues with Saudi women working for equality & helping them to do so (in fact I support it) - but it needs to be on their terms, not ours.

Is it news to some people that there has been a big outcry against the ridiculous airbrushing of fashion photos for years?
But then i guess you are all guys and for many of you this would be news!

As for the Saudi women wanting to get their rights in their way and within the Islamic culture that is so vibrant and rich.
No-one is trying to deny them that or to impose western values on them that I know of who really understands what the Rights issue is about.
I refer you again to the quotes by Maha Akeela about the value of the Western media putting pressure on the traditionalists within Muslim society to actually accept change and stop treating women in such a harmful way!


Does doing that mean that Life magazine supported regressive regimes?

I take it that you meant that comment as a joke:d

Garret
10-05-2012, 09:15 AM
Is it news to some people that there has been a big outcry against the ridiculous airbrushing of fashion photos for years?
But then i guess you are all guys and for many of you this would be news!

As for the Saudi women wanting to get their rights in their way and within the Islamic culture that is so vibrant and rich.
No-one is trying to deny them that or to impose western values on them that I know of who really understands what the Rights issue is about.
I refer you again to the quotes by Maha Akeela about the value of the Western media putting pressure on the traditionalists within Muslim society to actually accept change and stop treating women in such a harmful way!



I take it that you meant that comment as a joke:d

Yes, I did mean it as a joke. I also have been aware of the objections to photo touchups (I came out of my cave a few years back:p). Problem is (speaking of western countries) that the magazines aimed @ women are the worst offenders & women keep right on buying them.

Farfalla
10-05-2012, 09:20 AM
Yes, I did mean it as a joke. I also have been aware of the objections to photo touchups (I came out of my cave a few years back:p). Problem is (speaking of western countries) that the magazines aimed @ women are the worst offenders & women keep right on buying them.

I think we are in total agreement about that but I see it as having only minor relevance to this issue.
If I started a thread about fashion touch ups I can just imagine the sort of pics a lot of the great minds around here would be posting so i haven't bothered.
I do have a couple of other topics to start threads on but a few people are already making all those ugly chauvinistic noises about women's issues so i might wait a day or two. give them a chance to catch their breath:d

switters
10-05-2012, 09:54 AM
I spent a week working in Saudi - cant say as I really enjoyed the experience. The almost total lack of visible female presence was really quite disconcerting, the heat was unbelievable, and to make things even worse I caught the first couple of days of Ramadan. It is hard country, and I can only guess that some of their culture is a consequence of trying to survive in a baking sandpit - tribal and family connections are everthing, and women as chattels was historically a way of facilitating alliances between families. All very medieval, but put it in the context of nomadic desert dwellers, and maybe there is a hint of method to the madness.
Air brushing things out of catalogues to suit local sensibilities is just good business sense, and personally I have more problem with models being airbrushed into unattainable visions of perfection in local advertising. That messes with young minds in just about every Western country on the planet. It would probably be depressing to see how many of our girls die from anorexia, compared with how many of their girls die because of the Saudi justice system. I suspect the answer would not reflect favourably on our society.

Pete

ditto, I spent ten days in Jeddah in 2006, where were you? Three months after we left I read in the news that 3 or so British expats had been caught drinking homemade booze out int he desert and got 100 lashes in public, right in one of the parks I surveyed. I don't have much desire to go back.

I also wondered about the fine line between removing women in ads and the opposite of that in western culture, skinny sex sells.
You expressed the same thoughts I had but better written.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-05-2012, 10:08 AM
I spent a week working in Saudi - cant say as I really enjoyed the experience. The almost total lack of visible female presence was really quite disconcerting, the heat was unbelievable, and to make things even worse I caught the first couple of days of Ramadan. It is hard country, and I can only guess that some of their culture is a consequence of trying to survive in a baking sandpit - tribal and family connections are everthing, and women as chattels was historically a way of facilitating alliances between families. All very medieval, but put it in the context of nomadic desert dwellers, and maybe there is a hint of method to the madness.
Air brushing things out of catalogues to suit local sensibilities is just good business sense, and personally I have more problem with models being airbrushed into unattainable visions of perfection in local advertising. That messes with young minds in just about every Western country on the planet. It would probably be depressing to see how many of our girls die from anorexia, compared with how many of their girls die because of the Saudi justice system. I suspect the answer would not reflect favourably on our society.

Pete

Good post; I agree.

What is unusual about airbrushed women in catalogues?

Farfalla
10-05-2012, 10:15 AM
They are both equally wrong and should be condemned.
The idea that you can compare the number of anorexia victims in the western world a population numbered in billions to the number of women suffering at the hands of the patriarchal system endorsed by the Wahabiists in Saudi Arabia is absurd. Why would you? They both cause suffering and for that reason alone both deserve to be equally condemned.

Andrew Craig-Bennett
10-05-2012, 10:25 AM
Agreed. But IKEA not selling furniture in Saudi Arabia won't affect the position of women there beyond making their homes less convenient.

Farfalla
10-05-2012, 10:31 AM
Agreed. But IKEA not selling furniture in Saudi Arabia won't affect the position of women there beyond making their homes less convenient.

The whole point is not to stop Ikea selling furniture, no-one has mentioned that seriously.
The point is to use it as an example to put pressure on the system there by highlighting the way women are 2nd. class citizens. this is in accord with the ideas expressed by the Saudi women's movement which sees value in that sort of action.

B_B
10-05-2012, 12:08 PM
Agreed. But IKEA not selling furniture in Saudi Arabia won't affect the position of women there beyond making their homes less convenient.
And Stylish.

(Sophie, which words did I misuse in post 122? You've totally got my curiosity going...)

epoxyboy
10-05-2012, 01:03 PM
ditto, I spent ten days in Jeddah in 2006, where were you? Three months after we left I read in the news that 3 or so British expats had been caught drinking homemade booze out int he desert and got 100 lashes in public, right in one of the parks I surveyed. I don't have much desire to go back.

I also wondered about the fine line between removing women in ads and the opposite of that in western culture, skinny sex sells.
You expressed the same thoughts I had but better written.
A few km west of Dammam, about two years ago - keep going along the coast for another 300 km or so, and you get to Kuwait. I am a bit conflicted when I read about (stupid) expats getting treated like that. On the one hand, the penalty seems incredibly harsh by our standards. On the other hand, it isn't like it's a big secret that they have a below zero tolerance of all sorts of things that we take for granted. When in Rome......
i was told that as a western male, if I made eye contact with a saudi woman, she was well within her rights to lay a complaint with the religious police, which would result in my arrest. I always wondered how you would make eye contact given the way the very few women I did see we're covered from head to foot. The temperature cracked 51C, and wearing overalls was bad enough.

Pete

epoxyboy
10-05-2012, 01:31 PM
They are both equally wrong and should be condemned.
The idea that you can compare the number of anorexia victims in the western world a population numbered in billions to the number of women suffering at the hands of the patriarchal system endorsed by the Wahabiists in Saudi Arabia is absurd. Why would you? They both cause suffering and for that reason alone both deserve to be equally condemned.
Because as consumers we can, and do, influence how women are portrayed in local print media. No offence, but I don't think any of us have a snowballs chance in hell, of influencing how a company like Ikea runs one of its international marketing campaigns. I can't even choose not to buy their stuff, as it isn't sold in NZ. You need to remember that probabably only 200? Years ago, if that, our society had remarkably similar ideas. No vote, no property ownership rights, limited education, blah, blah, blah. The pace of change in the western world has been stunningly fast and not without some very significant problems. Fact is, big chunks of the world still work much the same as they always have. There are lots of things to not like, but they have a degree of stability that in many ways we don't, and it does work. The Saudis I talked to (yes, all men), were none too impressed with what they saw of the western world. Things are changing, but it won't happen overnight. I would guess fifty years from now you might be pleasantly surprised. That change though, has to come from within, and it will always be inter generational - it isn't something you can just impose on a society.


Pete

Farfalla
10-05-2012, 06:10 PM
Because as consumers we can, and do, influence how women are portrayed in local print media. No offence, but I don't think any of us have a snowballs chance in hell, of influencing how a company like Ikea runs one of its international marketing campaigns. I can't even choose not to buy their stuff, as it isn't sold in NZ. You need to remember that probabably only 200? Years ago, if that, our society had remarkably similar ideas. No vote, no property ownership rights, limited education, blah, blah, blah. The pace of change in the western world has been stunningly fast and not without some very significant problems. Fact is, big chunks of the world still work much the same as they always have. There are lots of things to not like, but they have a degree of stability that in many ways we don't, and it does work. The Saudis I talked to (yes, all men), were none too impressed with what they saw of the western world. Things are changing, but it won't happen overnight. I would guess fifty years from now you might be pleasantly surprised. That change though, has to come from within, and it will always be inter generational - it isn't something you can just impose on a society.


Pete

If Ikea didn't feel the pressure then why did it react/ Much stronger in Sweden than elsewhere. That sort of thing is considered pretty OFF in Sweden.
Lots of things change too fast here that's for sure but there are a lot of things that need to change in the rest of the world to remove a lot of the structural inequality that creates so much suffering.
No wonder the saudi guys were resistant to change!

The Bigfella
10-05-2012, 06:53 PM
One of the several Saudi couples I spoke with in Malaysia (it being a popular tourist destination for Saudis) had relocated, presumably for her career. She is a photographer, specialising in horse racing. None of them had the slightest criticism of "the system" at home.

B_B
10-05-2012, 07:40 PM
....No wonder the saudi [sic] guys were resistant to change!
And Saudi women are all for it?

Oh what a silly web we weave when through a Western lens we perceive...

Farfalla
10-06-2012, 01:35 AM
And Saudi women are all for it?

Oh what a silly web we weave when through a Western lens we perceive...

Well BB you could try doing a quick Google on Women's rights in Saudi arabia, or try Amnesty International, or keeping it within what has already been posted here you could look up the work of Mah Akeela, don't just read someone else's edited quote but read a few of her pieces. there's plenty available. There's lots of stuff around.
That way you can make informed comments.
Alternatively you could go for relying on the brief and superficial personal anecdote of a 3rd Party, like some seem to do, that's of course always a truly reliable source of information on a big complex issue.

As for your little rhyme it seems to lack something, maybe perspective so i hope you don't mind if I edit a little for you.

"Oh what a silly web we weave when through a lens of ignorance we perceive..."

There that seems a little more appropriate|;)

epoxyboy
10-06-2012, 03:22 AM
If Ikea didn't feel the pressure then why did it react/ Much stronger in Sweden than elsewhere. That sort of thing is considered pretty OFF in Sweden.
Lots of things change too fast here that's for sure but there are a lot of things that need to change in the rest of the world to remove a lot of the structural inequality that creates so much suffering.
No wonder the saudi guys were resistant to change!
They apologised, and kept right on selling as far as I can see. If there had never been women in the catalogue in the first place, nobody would have said a thing, and one more bit of western culture would have snuck in under the radar - another small agent of change. Now that it has been turned into a big media beat up, if I was a Saudi I'm damned sure not one stick of Ikea anything would cross my doorstep. So, in the big scheme of things, is your outrage over a photoshopped ad a win for the future of Saudi women, or have you reinforced their view that westerners are critical of their society? YMMV, but human nature being what it is, nothing will stifle the will to change faster than criticism from foreigners. Just look how touchy some of our American friends get when we colonials give them s@@t about their bizarro political system :D.


Pete

Garret
10-06-2012, 07:55 AM
They apologised, and kept right on selling as far as I can see. If there had never been women in the catalogue in the first place, nobody would have said a thing, and one more bit of western culture would have snuck in under the radar - another small agent of change. Now that it has been turned into a big media beat up, if I was a Saudi I'm damned sure not one stick of Ikea anything would cross my doorstep. So, in the big scheme of things, is your outrage over a photoshopped ad a win for the future of Saudi women, or have you reinforced their view that westerners are critical of their society? YMMV, but human nature being what it is, nothing will stifle the will to change faster than criticism from foreigners. Just look how touchy some of our American friends get when we colonials give them s@@t about their bizarro political system :D.

Pete

Excellent points! Especially using the US as an example <sheepish grin> We could have a whole 'nother thread on why advice, etc. from outside the country is often not well received.

Farfalla
10-06-2012, 09:11 AM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by epoxyboy http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=3554842#post3554842)They apologised, and kept right on selling as far as I can see. If there had never been women in the catalogue in the first place, nobody would have said a thing, and one more bit of western culture would have snuck in under the radar - another small agent of change. Now that it has been turned into a big media beat up, if I was a Saudi I'm damned sure not one stick of Ikea anything would cross my doorstep. So, in the big scheme of things, is your outrage over a photoshopped ad a win for the future of Saudi women, or have you reinforced their view that westerners are critical of their society? YMMV, but human nature being what it is, nothing will stifle the will to change faster than criticism from foreigners. Just look how touchy some of our American friends get when we colonials give them s@@t about their bizarro political system :D.


Pete


Excellent points! Especially using the US as an example <sheepish grin> We could have a whole 'nother thread on why advice, etc. from outside the country is often not well received.

Well of course you guys are the experts on what has been of benefit to the Saudi Women's movement and Maha Akeel, a Saudi journalist and leading activist for equality there really had it all wrong when she wrote this about international news stories and comment about issues of equality in her country.


it also brings international attention to women’s issues, which puts pressure on public authorities.

Garret
10-06-2012, 10:34 AM
Well of course you guys are the experts on what has been of benefit to the Saudi Women's movement and Maha Akeel, a Saudi journalist and leading activist for equality there really had it all wrong when she wrote this about international news stories and comment about issues of equality in her country.

Putting pressure on "public authorities" is a very different thing from changing long held culture-based beliefs. IMO, it's hard for the former to do much without changes in the latter.

B_B
10-06-2012, 11:02 AM
Well BB you could try doing a quick Google on Women's rights in Saudi arabia, or try Amnesty International, or keeping it within what has already been posted here you could look up the work of Mah Akeela, don't just read someone else's edited quote but read a few of her pieces. there's plenty available. There's lots of stuff around.
That way you can make informed comments.
Alternatively you could go for relying on the brief and superficial personal anecdote of a 3rd Party, like some seem to do, that's of course always a truly reliable source of information on a big complex issue.

As for your little rhyme it seems to lack something, maybe perspective so i hope you don't mind if I edit a little for you.

"Oh what a silly web we weave when through a lens of ignorance we perceive..."

There that seems a little more appropriate|;)
Yes! I like your rhyme a lot. It certainly applies. :D

My comments are informed. There is no doubt that women in Saudi Arabia live a life I wouldn't wish on anyone. There is no doubt that they perpetuate that culture to one degree or another; there is also evidence that, for the most part, many of them accept it and like it.

FWIW Amnesty Int'l shares your perspective - a Western, liberal, feminist perspective. Not all the world is so inclined; it might be the best perspective for you, but for many people, it isn't.

Farfalla
10-06-2012, 11:27 AM
Well what can i say ., you guys are obviously the experts in the field of women's Rights and even know more than the Saudi women activists.
I bow to your superior knowledge. Where would women be without such guidance. No wonder as Maha Akeela puts it.




renders half the country’s population helpless dependents.




The male chauvinist arrogance on display is staggering!

Garret
10-06-2012, 11:40 AM
Sophie - mellow a bit. You too are coming across in a very arrogant manner. You seem to think you know exactly how everyone here thinks. 'fraid you don't.

For example, I have actively worked on women's rights in the US & do everything I can to support politicians who support women's rights & to help educate those who need it. However, I can't truly affect the rest of the world. "Think globally & act locally" I do that.

skipper68
10-06-2012, 12:10 PM
It was said some women there like it that way.
Spiritual cages are spiritual devices that are used to trap and hold people in confinement. These cages come with spiritual wires, nets and iron bars.

Human beings as well as the things that belong to them are kept in these unseen cages. That means a person's finances can be caged. So can one's general progress, health, marriage and academic career. So what is a spiritual cage? Would these women know if they are in one? I doubt it.
1. They can move but only within a certain radius.
2. They see freedom but never experience it.
3. They cannot effectively respond to whatever is done against them.
4. They depend on others for sustenance.
5. Even when occupants of cages move, they move with the cage still around them.
6. After you've been in a cage for a long time, you get used to life in it.
7. It is possible to live and die in a cage.
There is a feeling of utter helplessness when a person is in a cage. Folks will do things to you that they ordinarily should not and you cannot defend yourself. People will take advantage of you, infringe on your fundamental human rights and you cannot do anything. Life in the cage is one of utter helplessness. Dr. Itiola's book: Freedom from Spiritual Cages.
Wonder if it's sold in Saudi Arabia.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-06-2012, 12:26 PM
Would everything be hunky dory if Ikea airbrushed all women from all of its catalogues everywhere worldwide?

Or simply did not include any.

B_B
10-06-2012, 01:48 PM
Well what can i say ., you guys are obviously the experts in the field of women's Rights and even know more than the Saudi women activists

....


The male chauvinist arrogance on display is staggering!
It ain't only male chauvinist arrogance on display.

epoxyboy
10-06-2012, 05:54 PM
Well what can i say ., you guys are obviously the experts in the field of women's Rights and even know more than the Saudi women activists.
I bow to your superior knowledge. Where would women be without such guidance. No wonder as Maha Akeela puts it.



The male chauvinist arrogance on display is staggering!
Pointing out that cultural change takes a long time does not make me arrogant. It took us the better part of 200 years, the industrial revolution and two world wars to get from something remarkably close to what Saudi has today regarding women's rights, to what we have now. And that is far from perfect.

Pointing out that just maybe the media reaction to the Ikea thing might have some unintended consequences does not make me arrogant. It just means I have tried to look at another facet of the same problem.

Pointing out that there are some issues around the portrayal of women in the media in our own countries that we can have some real influence over does not make me arrogant. At least I hope not.

Nobody here has attacked your proposition that women's rights in Saudi suck - everybody gets that. What we have done is questioned the effectiveness of slagging Ikea in the media as a way to promote the cultural change that needs to happen.
You choose to ignore the Realpolitik, call everyone with a slightly different opinion a chauvinist and shoot the messenger. |:(.

Pete

skipper68
10-06-2012, 08:36 PM
Luv ya Farfella.
Look into our FEDERAL Woman's Right's Museum, here in Seneca Falls.
You can not fight with those who agree with you.
You can NOT change the minds of those that don't.
Continue to educate-but don't carry that big stick. It Don't work. :(
I understand your frustration, really I do.
Chill out, and choose your war carefully. Don't waste your energy on those who will never "Get it". XO

B_B
10-07-2012, 04:32 PM
... It took us the better part of 200 years, the industrial revolution and two world wars to get from something remarkably close to what Saudi has today regarding women's rights, to what we have now. And that is far from perfect...
AND we didn't have a bunch of 'know-it-alls' from other countries telling us how backward we were - we had our own wimmins for that. ;)

Tellingly, in the West, there were things like the National Association Opposed to Women Suffrage too... :D

wardd
10-07-2012, 04:43 PM
in the case of womens rights, the good guys lost