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View Full Version : Boy Scouts down on all fours in Doo-Doo?



Nicholas Scheuer
09-17-2012, 01:40 PM
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/17/13914000-boy-scouts-face-release-of-damaging-child-sex-abuse-files?lite&ocid=msnhp

Awhile back the news was their aversion to changing their policy on admitting gay Scouts and gay/lesbian Leaders, then it was Eagle Scouts turning in their badges in protest to that. Now this!

I had a gay Scout in my Troop once, at least we all figured that; niether we nor he ever actually brought it up for discussion. Everybody liked and respected him. He was the one who showed all of us how to mix pancake batter at home and bottle it with olive oil, so all we had to do on a campout (12 months/year in tents, snow or no snow) was pour it in a hot pan.

The BSA is so worried about their image. Problem is they don't seem to have a clue what their image really is.

Bob Cleek
09-17-2012, 02:00 PM
One wonders whether all this child-molester witch-hunting isn't becoming simply a covert assault on institutions which stand for Truth, Justice and the American Way. First it was the churches, then the sports coaches and school teachers, and now the Boy Scouts. Oddly, it seems most of these allegations of misconduct are so often decades old and quite difficult to prove or defend against. Who's next?

It's one thing to protect children and quite another to go off suing institutions for millions of dollars for things done decades earlier when our consciousness of child abuse was quite different by people now long dead. I am finding it increasingly difficult to generate much sympathy for people who come out of the woodwork twenty years later claiming their life was ruined by somebody goosing them in the locker room. This isn't to excuse abusing children at all, but it's starting to seem like another boogey man somebody somewhere wants us all to fear.

Nicholas Scheuer
09-17-2012, 02:17 PM
The Boy Scouts are actually about the development of "Citizenship" and "Self Reliance". Anti-gay/lesbian policies in no way reinforces those aims.

seanz
09-17-2012, 02:29 PM
One wonders whether all this child-molester witch-hunting isn't becoming simply a covert assault on institutions which stand for Truth, Justice and the American Way. First it was the churches, then the sports coaches and school teachers, and now the Boy Scouts. Oddly, it seems most of these allegations of misconduct are so often decades old and quite difficult to prove or defend against. Who's next?

It's one thing to protect children and quite another to go off suing institutions for millions of dollars for things done decades earlier when our consciousness of child abuse was quite different by people now long dead. I am finding it increasingly difficult to generate much sympathy for people who come out of the woodwork twenty years later claiming their life was ruined by somebody goosing them in the locker room. This isn't to excuse abusing children at all, but it's starting to seem like another boogey man somebody somewhere wants us all to fear.


Back when sex with children was legal and conspiring to cover up abuse was fine?

Tom Montgomery
09-17-2012, 03:00 PM
It's one thing to protect children and quite another to go off suing institutions for millions of dollars for things done decades earlier when our consciousness of child abuse was quite different by people now long dead. I am finding it increasingly difficult to generate much sympathy for people who come out of the woodwork twenty years later claiming their life was ruined by somebody goosing them in the locker room. This isn't to excuse abusing children at all, but it's starting to seem like another boogey man somebody somewhere wants us all to fear.

Hmmm....


The story was based on a review of 1,600 internal Boy Scouts case files the newspaper said it obtained that detailed accusations against confirmed or alleged child molesters within the youth organization.

About 1,200 "ineligible volunteer" files dating from 1965 to 1985 are set to be publicly released under a June order by the Oregon Supreme Court, including some already reviewed by the newspaper.

Those files played a key role in a 2010 civil trial in which an Oregon jury found the Boy Scouts liable in a 1980s pedophile case and ordered the organization to pay nearly $20 million in damages.

The files will be released within three to four weeks, said Paul Mones, one of the attorneys representing the plaintiff in the Oregon case.

It appears this story is not the result of any particular lawsuit but rather by an investigation by the Los Angeles Times.

I think the print media does us all a service by overturning rocks and examining what scurries underneath.

Tom Montgomery
09-17-2012, 04:55 PM
I asked the original poster an honest respectful question that was based on posts he has made in the past about his involvement in the Catholic church.

Why do you feel the need the attack me with nasty inuendo?
I'm still trying to figure out what relevance your question has to the topic. :confused:

Flying Orca
09-17-2012, 05:25 PM
One wonders whether all this child-molester witch-hunting isn't becoming simply a covert assault on institutions which stand for Truth, Justice and the American Way.

This one thinks such wondering says a lot about the wonderer.

Steamboat
09-17-2012, 05:36 PM
Any organization that draws in large numbers of children will always have a problem of child predators hiding within. The question is, do they have the courage to deal openly with the predators or will they turn there backs? So far our 'moral compass' organizations appear amoral.

ChrisBen
09-17-2012, 09:14 PM
With over 3.5 Million scouts annually, 1600 cases in 47 years comes in at about .000001 % ( if my math is better than my english)I guess if your son was one of those 1600, you'd have a different view?

Steamboat
09-17-2012, 09:22 PM
0.0001%! Is this an acceptable tolerance level for you and your children. It is inevitable that it will happen, it is how the culture of an organization and its people handle the issue that is the issue. This is where we could as a society might do better.

Ian McColgin
09-17-2012, 10:00 PM
Any system, school or church or camp or whatever, can attract predators. The problem is when the system protects the predators, as the Roman Church did and as, we are learning, BSA did. For both organizations, the ability of predators to find a safe hunting ground in organizations that also have such stridently anti-gay posturing just adds the glare of hipocracy to the show.

There are many Eagle Scouts like myself who find the current BSA leadership has brought a double disgrace on an organization that did us lots of good.

David W Pratt
09-18-2012, 11:45 AM
My sense is that Baden-Powell was a pedophile

wardd
09-18-2012, 11:56 AM
Hmmm....



It appears this story is not the result of any particular lawsuit but rather by an investigation by the Los Angeles Times.

I think the print media does us all a service by overturning rocks and examining what scurries underneath.

you would not make a very good republican

Ian McColgin
09-18-2012, 12:02 PM
"Sense" is pretty meaningless. There is speculation that Baden-Powell was a repressed homosexual but no evidence that he actually had sex with either boys or men. Like a lot of folk in those days of "muscular Christianity", Baden-Powell certainly had an appreciation for the male form, both adolescent and adult. That carries through to nude group swim as was common at summer camps when I was a kid, to training in posture, and to modern body building, all of which can have homo-erotic overtones without homosexual actions.

Baden-Powell is likely to have covered up some instances of boy-scout leader sado-masochism, which we might recall was a virtual normal behavior in parts of English society at the time.

There was always a strain and tension within BSA regarding sexuality. I recall that my old copy of the handbook had a hygene section that, if read with understanding, was against masterbation. For many like myself, trying to figure out what the book was railing against led us to a measure of self-satisfaction . . . And being kids and therefore instinctivly disobedient, we did not feel either guilty or dirty about it.

Bob Cleek
09-18-2012, 01:54 PM
If my son had been one of those 1600 it would have been a different case file.
I have been a Cub Scout leader, Pee-Wee hockey coach, Little league coach. In all our training, it was stressed never to be alone with a child. All a child has to say is "He touched me" and your life is over.
I think that we are overreacting to a problem that is being overstated. Sexual predators have always been a problem and will always be a problem. When we were kids we knew who were the creepy old men and who never to be caught alone with.This is part of growing up.
Parents need to take some responbility in this also. They can't use these programs as a dumping ground for baby sitting their kids. The kids who get preyed upon usually are the ones with the least amount of family support.
I don't mean to make light of this issue. Every molested child represents a moral failing in the system. But the system as a whole should not be condemmed. nor should it be constrained to be so risk adverse that it becomes meaningless and empty of any real life experience.

An experienced voice of sanity. I agree completely. Parents are the first line of defense against against those who would abuse their children, and the most effective one, at that.

Ian McColgin
09-18-2012, 02:30 PM
Not sure I catch your problem, Art. Maybe you're not old enough or lucky enough to go to boys' camp with nude swim.

I cannot say that I regard noticing the cultural history of "muscular Christianity" is a slur. Any quick google of Baden-Powell will show many articles where people speculate with some evidence that Baden-Powell was a repressed homosexual. There's lots of such speculation about lots of people and in a repressive society that both held sodomy a crime and had a strong tradition of prominent people having homosexual parts to their lives, being a repressed homosexual was far from strange. Everyone's a repressed something. I'm perhaps a repressed Republican. To turn Freud right side up, repression makes civilization possible.

I think that my disbelief of the utterly unsupported accusation of pedaresty is obvious but in case any missed it, try rereading that last clause of the second sentence.

James McMullen
09-18-2012, 02:33 PM
I was in Cub Scouts as a kid, which I remember with indifference. However I was invited to join the Sea Scouts, which is a division of the Boy Scouts of America, as an adult trip leader last year. But the membership packet they sent me was totally offputting, and included not just the official bigotry against gays, but also stipulated a fascistic loyalty oath where you even had to swear allegiance to the monotheist Judeo-Christian god. Turns out they've been hijacked by the Fundies since I was a kid.

And we all know from the constant stream of revelations on the news just how sick and twisted those repressed fundie types can get. These poor twisted sickos who can't come out and accept their own sexuality are the ones who prey on weaker victims. Pedophiles are overwhelmingly typically heterosexual men, not out homosexuals.

I ended up telling the Scouts to go Cheney themselves. I would be embarrassed to be a member of a organization with such institutional and inherently flawed bigotry.

Bob Cleek
09-18-2012, 02:40 PM
I don't know about "repressed homosexuality," but anybody who dresses up like a boy scout at this age probably has a screw loose somewhere! :D

http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/495552402/BP.jpg

Actually, I was raised in a family that was decidedly not into scouting. My mother used to refer to them as the "Hitler Youth." I have a lot of friends who are even now seriously into Scouting and a number of them are Eagle Scouts. All great people to a man, but I've never been able to figure out how somebody could become an Eagle Scout once puberty kicked in. Somehow, they did.

Ian McColgin
09-18-2012, 03:16 PM
Sorry Art. You can do your own google and see that there's loads of speculation, some of which I indeed share, and more slurring which you must have figured out by now I reject.

Then you might indulge in learning a bit about that interesting nineteenth century English movement called Muscular Christianity. Read some psychology and generally get educated. Following all that you might or might not agree that it's entirely likely that Baden-Powell could have been a repressed homosexual. You might or might not agree that speculation that he was a pedarest is irresponsibly based on no evidence.

Finally, you might or might not revisit your own early adolescent mastabatory experiences with thought as to whether Scouting or seeing the Jungle Boy Sabu on TV had anything to do with it and what it might mean to emerging mature sexuality.

G'luck

Nicholas Scheuer
09-18-2012, 03:57 PM
Boy Scout Leaders' uniforms have been virtually identical to the Youth's uniforms since day-one, Bob. I still have a well-worn one hanging in my closet, with the Eagle and Silver Beaver Awards on it.


I knew one Scout Leader who encouraged nude swimming in the mid 1950's. I participated as part of a small group of volunteers doing preliminary work on what would become one of the outstanding Bou Scout Camps in the USA. We merely thought the practice a bit goofy. Nude swimming was a practice also shared by the YMCA at that time.

Ian McColgin
09-18-2012, 06:14 PM
Art, I want to take your thoughts seriously because the issues are important.

There is the normal development of a person, which includes sexuality as well as all the rest of bodily development. I recognize that the best one can do for a full and integrated healthy growth depends a lot on the times. For example, homophobes were in the closet during the time of Socratese. In Baden-Powell's time, the nature of civilized repression had changed since being queer was illegal but plenty of folk engaged in homosexuality, both as a form of dominence-submission and in a more growth oriented Socratic sense.

For most youth, especially boys, the way people first learn about their sexuality is quite often masterbation. As many here know, that may begin quite early. Think of all the continental trained baby nursemaids who perform what's really oral sex to quiet an infant. In some cultures this is child abuse. In others, it's good child care.

If readers here can't observe these shifting cultural realities, if they think that honest reflection and critical analysis is some sort of slur, then they will not understand what's right about Baden-Powell and what's wrong with the creeps who have taken over the BSA now, I don't quite know how to help.

But, as an Eagle Scout I'm happy to do what I can to explain it and to help scouting get back to reality.

Ian McColgin
09-18-2012, 06:20 PM
Ah well, when one attempts dialogue and the other settles into simple insult, it does not proove that the simple insult side is without reason.

Ian McColgin
09-18-2012, 06:44 PM
That was standard English. But another version could be: Art has made quippish insuts in answer to my efforts at reasonable dialog but Art's lack of a reasonable response does not prove that his perspective is without any foundation.

Ian McColgin
09-18-2012, 06:51 PM
I still remain confused as to what Art's problem with me could be. I don't think Baden-Powell was a pederast or even an active homosexual, not that I've any problem with the latter. I think it's likely that he was a repressed homosexual but most folk are a repressed something or other so really, who cares? All in all, I am an Eagle Scout who is disgusted with the current BSA leadership's twin sins of protecting predators and of discriminating against gay Boy Scouts. That's really the issue, and not Baden-Powell.

So I guess the question is: Does Art join me and other Eagles (if he's an Eagle) and other Scouts (if he ever was a scout) in rejecting the hypocrisy and homophobia of the current BSA national paid leadership? Enough of Baden-Powell, let's get with the real issue.

Garret
09-18-2012, 06:56 PM
Wordy, not whitty.

For cripe's sake Art. Ian was stating an opinion that a # of others share. While you are of course free to disagree, attacking him instead of discussing the subject is exactly what I've heard you complain about in "lefties" here.

The google search was tough. I went to www.google.com (http://www.google.com) & typed "baden powell repressed homosexual"

Here you go - all you have to do is click: https://www.google.com/search?q=baden+powell+repressed+homosexual&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

ETA: Art - did you notice you are condemning an Eagle Scout? Maybe he knows just a bit about scouting?

Ian McColgin
09-18-2012, 07:16 PM
Thank you Garret. I should have mentioned that others besides Eagles and former scouts have a perfect right to weigh in on this, just as non-Roman Catholics have a right to be horrified at the twin RC Church responses of continued condemnation of homosexuality and protection of predators. Art need not have been a scout to have a legitimate opinion. And it's perfect possible for scouts, even Eagles, to have opinions I find wrong, repressive and disgraceful.

Garret
09-18-2012, 07:20 PM
Thank you Garret. I should have mentioned that others besides Eagles and former scouts have a perfect right to weigh in on this, just as non-Roman Catholics have a right to be horrified at the twin RC Church responses of continued condemnation of homosexuality and protection of predators. Art need not have been a scout to have a legitimate opinion. And it's perfect possible for scouts, even Eagles, to have opinions I find wrong, repressive and disgraceful.

You're welcome.

Though I'm simply an ex-scout who had some bad experiences in scouting (nothing sexual!), an eagle scout has a perspective that a non-scout will never have.

Ian McColgin
09-18-2012, 07:37 PM
A lot depends on when and where. I became an Eagle in '62 or '63 - can't quite remember. It was a different and calmer time. And we were a small, rural Long Island troop pretty much out of the national events. For me, scouting was great. As it was, I think, for most of my pals.

My experience was not that much different from my Dad's - also an Eagle - in the '30s. Scouting was a community thing that made the best of community resourses.

But not so much for my brother, just two years younger than I was. While it seemed to me that scouting became a bit ossified even in that short time, I can't really trust my perspective of that time and have not done intense study to see if my impressions had anything to do with reality.

Some may have been an unfortunate side effect of my becoming an Eagle, which had not happened in our town before. Suddenly a casual friend thing became a matter of civic pride and boasting at the Council and regional levels. A lot of the scandals about membership numbers and such in BSA in the '80s and such really had their start in stuff like that from a couple decades earlier.

It became a business with goals and quotas and all.

Pity that.

We had more fun.

And we really didn't give a hoot about anyone being queer. Maybe we were too close to New York City and lived among too many "artists." But it wasn't a deal.

Ian McColgin
09-18-2012, 08:02 PM
"How long will this continue if pedophiles are executed on conviction?" [#37]

About forever, Predators will do what they have done with officiall anti-queer structures like the RCC, BSA, and Nazi Party. They will bury into the power structure and kill other queers to maintain their own satisfactions. So far as I know, we don't have systemitic success with 'curing' any form of sexual deviance or predation. That means we remain ignorent, not that we should kill folk we fancy deviant.

PeterSibley
09-18-2012, 08:46 PM
I don't know about "repressed homosexuality," but anybody who dresses up like a boy scout at this age probably has a screw loose somewhere! :D

http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/495552402/BP.jpg

Actually, I was raised in a family that was decidedly not into scouting. My mother used to refer to them as the "Hitler Youth." I have a lot of friends who are even now seriously into Scouting and a number of them are Eagle Scouts. All great people to a man, but I've never been able to figure out how somebody could become an Eagle Scout once puberty kicked in. Somehow, they did.

Yeah, imagine a grown man putting on a funny costume just because his peers do.

http://overheardinthesacristy.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/confirmations-0802.jpg

Seneca
09-20-2012, 02:19 PM
What do sexual predators have to do with gays in scouting anyway? Virtually all, if not all, the instances of sexual predatory that have come to light are straight men (or women)....

Nicholas Scheuer
09-20-2012, 02:29 PM
Sanity has been tried before in these discussions, Seneca, and gotten nowhere.