Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documments?

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  • ben2go
    Salty Sinker
    • Nov 2008
    • 1593

    Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documments?

    I can't find an insurer for a boat build I am planning.They ask me if the boat will be registered with the state or documented with the USCG.What would be best,state or USCG?Either way,I will have to have the boat inspected by the USCG.I am planning to build 3o foot Sitka by Spira International.USCG states that a documented vessel should be 25 feet in length and/or capable of carrying 5 net tons(10,000lbs).I have a blog post about documenting a boat withe the USCG.I've never done it and it isn't really that difficult.I have registered small boats with the state and they can be a bit of a pain.I've never had to deal with insurance on a homebuilt,because they have all been small boats.I am building this boat with the plans of doing the great loop in it.
    This sig line is proudly provided by The Wooden Boat Magazine Forum. If it ain't The Wooden Boat Mag, it just a rag.
  • kc8pql
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2004
    • 3510

    #2
    Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

    The only reason to document a recreational boat is if you plan to take it out of US territory. The further you get from the US, the less kindly foreign customs looks on state registration. The Bahamas, Caribbean, Canada, Mexico, no problem with state registration. South Pacific, Europe, Far East etc. documentation is a good idea.

    If you do a good job of building the boat, and it gets a favorable report from an accredited surveyer acceptable to the insurance company, insurance shouldn't be a problem either. Also note that the Coast Guard doesn't inspect home built recreational boats. That's done buy the states, and is mostly to insure that you actually built the boat, paid any required taxes, and that the boat isn't stolen. They will give you an HIN. Once you have that, you can register or document it and move forward with the insurance survey.

    I did all this, including documentation, for Alaya (lod 39') when I finished building her, so this isn't just something I read somewhere.
    Last edited by kc8pql; 07-27-2012, 11:39 AM.

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    • Bob Cleek
      Senior Member
      • Feb 2000
      • 11970

      #3
      Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

      A couple of clarifying points. Keep meticulous records of all the money you spend on your build. This will be necessary to document its value for tax purposes. Things like the sales taxes you paid on the materials and so on will be important when you have to fight over state property tax assessments and so on. Secondly, do a bit more research on what is called "admeasurement" for documentation. There is no length requirement for documentation, although 25 feet is a good "rule of thumb" for an estimate only. The minimum "5 Net Tons" is NOT a description of the the "weight the boat can carry" at all. The "Tons" measurement used in documentation is a measure of cargo hold volume, not weight. You can find the USCG's interactive admeasurement form which will calculate "tonnage" for documentation here: http://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/docs/CG-5397.pdf

      There are a number of somewhat minor advantages to documentation over state registration, even if you aren't planning to leave US territorial waters. Keeping a boat documented is a matter of merely returning a form annually. You can paint the name and home port on your boat and dispense with the state registration numbers and stickers, which is not only an asthetic consideration, but also seems to convey a bit of "invisibility" to enforcement authorities. In my experience, when they see a documented vessel, they assume you probably know what you are doing. Thus, there's less chance of your Saturday afternoon being interrupted for life jacket counts and the like. You may have to pay property tax on your boat, as you do on real estate, but you aren't going to get hit every year for registration fees as well. In fact, in some instances, states don't even bother to tax documented vessels at all because there are so few of them in the state it doesn't pay to track them down through the USCG documentation office.
      Last edited by Bob Cleek; 07-27-2012, 12:05 PM.

      Comment

      • Todd D
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2007
        • 4400

        #4
        Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

        If you plan to stay in the US the main reason to document your boat is financing. Banks and finance companies really like the traceability of a documented boat's title and the dact that liens have to be registered with the USCG. For a home build, this may not seem like an issue, but when you sell it may well be a factor for the buyer. I would document the boat if it was mine. It isn't hard to do since all the instructions are on-line at the NVDC web site, or you can call them and get all the info you need.

        Comment

        • John P Lebens
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2009
          • 828

          #5
          Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

          Our 60 year old wood boat had been documented since 1951 with two owner exceptions. The documentation is a very good way to create an accessible record of ownership. The state registered exceptions created gaps and inconsistent data in the record. If it's a boat larger than about 25 feet, I would document it.

          Comment

          • willmarsh3
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2004
            • 6684

            #6
            Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

            I had to document my ketch in order to finance the purchase. This was done with a "First Preferred Ship Mortgage" loan. Basically this type of loan is easier for the bank to repo the boat in case of default.



            This part might not appear to help the OP at first but would be good if he decided to sell the boat later on.

            I paid a one time fee of $450 for the documentation in 1997. Subsequently I just had to mail in the renewal each year with no additional cost. It does offer advantages so I kept mine up after I paid the loan off.

            On my home built yawl I got a marine policeman to come see and feel the boat. Then he gave me a HIN sticker and some paperwork to take to the courthouse. I would think after this step you would go to the Coast Guard.
            Will

            Comment

            • kc8pql
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2004
              • 3510

              #7
              Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

              Originally posted by ben2go
              I am planning to build 3o foot Sitka by Spira International.
              Humm...If this is the design in question, all this discussion about documentation may be moot.
              You need to do the calculations using this interactive form to be sure, http://www.uscg.mil/hq/msc/docs/CG-5...6-04_v1_0b.pdf but this hull
              may not have enough volume to meet the minimum requirements even stretched to 30'.



              Last edited by kc8pql; 07-28-2012, 11:36 AM.

              Comment

              • Lew Barrett
                Landlocked
                • Dec 2005
                • 30035

                #8
                Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

                I liked not having to paste on state numbers!
                You do it once, and it is done; no further expense, but I agree; this boat may not meet minimums. For use on inland waters, except for the issue of state reg numbers, there is no practical difference for the user.
                One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

                Comment

                • ILikeRust
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 1842

                  #9
                  Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

                  I went ahead and re-documented my 30-foot 1968 Pearson when I bought it. It had previously been documented, but the guy I bought it from had allowed it to lapse, so I had to fill out a few forms to re-activate the USCG number. The benefits I perceived (if I recall right from the research I did at the time) include the fact that I do not have to register it with the state, so no numbers pasted on the hull, and no annual registration fee. I seem to recall there was something else as well, but I can't remember exactly. Mostly, it actually saved me a few bucks per year and eliminated the need to stick numbers on it. Plus, the number was already carved into a deck beam in the head!
                  - Bill T.
                  - Ashland, VA

                  Motorcycles or sailboat; either way I'll be camping.

                  Comment

                  • kc8pql
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2004
                    • 3510

                    #10
                    Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

                    Originally posted by ILikeRust
                    ...include the fact that I do not have to register it with the state, so no numbers pasted on the hull, and no annual registration fee.
                    It should be noted that this varies from state to state. In no case are you required to have state numbers on the hull of a documented vessel, but a number of states still require registration, and you may have to display a state registration sticker. Ohio requires this for one.

                    Comment

                    • ben2go
                      Salty Sinker
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 1593

                      #11
                      Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

                      I don't know what the problem is,but I can't get the quote function to work properly today.

                      All good info.Thanks for clearing up some of my misunderstandings of the rules.Yes the boat will leave US waters,Canada,Mexico,and travel the Caribbean.In SC,a documented boat is essentially ignored and needs no further registration.Not sure about property taxes.I'll look into that.I won't be financing anything for this boat,well I'll use the CC to order supplies.Still good info on that aspect and may come in handy if I every decide to finance or borrow.

                      @ kc8pql-I have been aboard smaller boats that were documented as recreational.One was a 25 foot Bayliner.How could they do that?The boat was all around smaller than the one I am preping to build.Could there be a loop hole?

                      The recommendation of keeping receipts,always.Gotta box for them.I recently saw an ad, on the black box in my house, that scans and saves receipts in a way as to make them searchable.Bet that's gonna cost me.Now where's that controller for the black ad box?
                      This sig line is proudly provided by The Wooden Boat Magazine Forum. If it ain't The Wooden Boat Mag, it just a rag.

                      Comment

                      • Lew Barrett
                        Landlocked
                        • Dec 2005
                        • 30035

                        #12
                        Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

                        Check your state's laws very carefully. As KC points out, no vessel with US documentation is required to visibly carry state numbers, but there are very few states (I couldn't find any in a fast google) that don't have some fee or tax associated with vessels that list home ports within the state itself. Sometimes listed as a use tax, in others, water quality acts prevail, and in still others, the vessel is required to be registered in the usual fashion but isn't required to carry state numbers. The registration itself and, usually, an annual sticker must be mounted in a designated place however. General laxity in enforcement won't protect an owner if he's singled out for boarding by the police.

                        It varies state to state, but rarely is some sort of process not required.

                        USCG Regs here

                        Bottom line: documentation amounts in most cases to an extra one time fee. The old timey explanation of the benefit of documentation has to do with clearing in foreign ports, where, as a documented US flag vessel, certain rights accrue to the bearer including in some case, the right to enter at all.
                        One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

                        Comment

                        • Dave Lesser
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2004
                          • 2476

                          #13
                          Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

                          My Dad had a documented vessel on one of the inland lakes in New York state. Someone from the local sheriff’s department boarded him a couple of times every summer because he didn’t have registration numbers on the boat. It became sort of a feud. He did have the required decal and paid the annual use tax. After 5 or 6 years, he put the registration numbers on just to avoid the constant hassle.
                          One of the great things about this forum is that we don't all have to accumulate the same scar tissue.
                          AJ Zimm

                          Comment

                          • kc8pql
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2004
                            • 3510

                            #14
                            Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

                            Originally posted by ben2go
                            I don't know what the problem is,but I can't get the quote function to work properly today.
                            After you enter the information on the form, hit Enter on your keyboard. The tonnage will appear in the upper right corner of the form.

                            I did a quick check earlier using 30' X 8'6" X 4' depth and came out with 6 gross tons. I don't think that hull is that deep though.
                            Looking at the little drawing and comparing depth to beam, it looks more like 3'. Keep in mind, it's not the length of the boat that counts,
                            it's the volume of the hull.
                            Last edited by kc8pql; 07-28-2012, 06:18 PM.

                            Comment

                            • Breakaway
                              Senior Member
                              • Mar 2007
                              • 28419

                              #15
                              Re: Insuring and registering a larger boat. Register at state level or USCG documment

                              There's really no reason for you to document that kind of boat, IMO. In addition to what's been posted earlier about leaving the US, there used to be some financing and insurance advantages, most of which have evaporated. And as Dave Lesser said, most water cops will board you if you're not showing registration numbers, so who needs the hassle.

                              Some folks do it as a sort of "panache" thing. Most really have no need of it, but they like to be able to say, through clenched teeth and in the style of Thurston Howell the Third, " Lovey, its not a boat. Its a documented yacht."

                              Kevin
                              There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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