PDA

View Full Version : ?'s For the Anti Gun Crowd



RodSBT
07-25-2012, 01:10 PM
According to the assumers here, the streets, shops, malls, movie theaters etc. should be littered with bodies of those maimed and killed by their theoretical armed and incompetent private citizens who populate this great country. Would any of you please show evidence of all the mayhem you claim occurs when law abiding citizens use their firearms to protect themselves and others when confronted by bad guys? How many innocent bystanders are shot/killed during these incidents compared to those shot/killed by law enforcement?

Lay your cards out for all to see.

Phillip Allen
07-25-2012, 01:12 PM
good point

RodSBT
07-25-2012, 01:29 PM
Last I looked, the number of defensive uses of a gun fairly closely matched the number of criminal uses of a gun.... which is why I'm not rabidly anti-gun, at all.

It was said best in another thread: we have lots of guns in america because it's a cultural thing, and cultural things are strongly defended and very hard to change anyone's mind about..

(The number of defensive uses of a gun means actual cases where someone actually had to fire a weapon to protect themselves....not merely waving it as a threat, which could be done with a toy gun. forget John Lott's numbers... they are blatantly false).

What proof do have that Lott's numbers are "blatantly false"?

Flying Orca
07-25-2012, 01:30 PM
Well, it's true that you're only twelfth-worst in the world for firearms related deaths. South Africa, Colombia, El Salvador, Jamaica, Honduras, Guatemala, Swaziland, Brazil, Estonia, Panama, and Mexica are all worse. Clearly nothing to be concerned about.

RodSBT
07-25-2012, 01:34 PM
Well, it's true that you're only twelfth-worst in the world for firearms related deaths. South Africa, Colombia, El Salvador, Jamaica, Honduras, Guatemala, Swaziland, Brazil, Estonia, Panama, and Mexica are all worse. Clearly nothing to be concerned about.

How do gun laws in those countries compare to US gun laws?

Flying Orca
07-25-2012, 01:35 PM
How do gun laws in those countries compare to US gun laws?

What do I look like, your personal research assistant?

Horace
07-25-2012, 01:46 PM
I think FO is saying that if we duplicated their laws, we'd be sweet and pure, just like Canadians. ;)

Rich Jones
07-25-2012, 01:47 PM
Say a dozen people who were legally carrying were inside that movie theater when the shooting starts. They all jump up, guns drawn, looking for the bad guy. It's dark, people are screaming, smoke fills the air, total choas. Is there one bad guy or more? Who knows? There's lots of people with guns now running around in there. No way in Hell is Joe Average qualified to handle that situation.

Please post a few instances where armed citizens have stopped a mass murderer from killing in a public place.

TomF
07-25-2012, 02:10 PM
In Canada, our recent high-profile gun deaths all seem life-of-crime related. Most other gun deaths are spousal killings, with hunting weapons.

I'm unaware of a single instance of a civilian stopping a lone-gunman mass shooting with a weapon they routinely carried for self protection. Not in school or university shootings, post offices, malls, workplaces, etc.

I'd have thought Aurora would have prompted quite a litany of examples where a civilian took out such a shooter intending mass deaths, usually of strangers or acquaintances. Somehow I've missed them - do you have links?

RodSBT
07-25-2012, 02:13 PM
Say a dozen people who were legally carrying were inside that movie theater when the shooting starts. They all jump up, guns drawn, looking for the bad guy. It's dark, people are screaming, smoke fills the air, total choas. Is there one bad guy or more? Who knows? There's lots of people with guns now running around in there. No way in Hell is Joe Average qualified to handle that situation.

Please post a few instances where armed citizens have stopped a mass murderer from killing in a public place.

Here's one.
http://www.abc4.com/content/news/top_stories/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865554797/Suspect-in-stabbing-at-Smiths-has-long-criminal-history.html

Watch the video on this one. Old guy goes after two armed robbers. Amazingly he only shoots the bad guys.
http://hotair.com/archives/2012/07/17/video-excellent-concealed-carrier-stops-an-armed-robbery/

Ten year old connects with head shot on dirt bag:
http://www.wafb.com/global/story.asp?s=10741492

There's a whole list of cases where citizens stopped bad guys with their firearms:
http://www.akdart.com/gun3.html

I'm sure this won't satisfy you but still something to chew on. How about answering the original questions I posted?

Flying Orca
07-25-2012, 02:19 PM
I think FO is saying that if we duplicated their laws, we'd be sweet and pure, just like Canadians. ;)

Hardly, but I suppose it's easier to put words in someone's mouth than ask what they actually think.

TomF
07-25-2012, 02:27 PM
Well, an interesting list. Many instances of armed individuals stopping a variety of typically violent crimes against one or two people.

I see nothing that looks like an Aurora or Columbine, but then haven't gone through all the links. One where a nutter started taking a knife to strangers is closest - he wounded two, before being stopped. I wonder how the elapsed time compared with the much higher body-count Aurora event? Is it possible that part of the reason both for the lower death count, and the willingness of a concealed-carry citizen to step forwards with a handgun was because the nutter used a knife, rather than a high cap semi-auto rifle?

RodSBT
07-25-2012, 02:28 PM
Hardly, but I suppose it's easier to put words in someone's mouth than ask what they actually think.


So what are your thoughts wrt to your post #6 ?

BrianY
07-25-2012, 02:30 PM
According to the assumers here, the streets, shops, malls, movie theaters etc. should be littered with bodies of those maimed and killed by their theoretical armed and incompetent private citizens who populate this great country. Would any of you please show evidence of all the mayhem you claim occurs when law abiding citizens use their firearms to protect themselves and others when confronted by bad guys? How many innocent bystanders are shot/killed during these incidents compared to those shot/killed by law enforcement?

Lay your cards out for all to see.

I cannot answer your question, but I think it stands to reason that the examples you're asking for will become more numerous as the number of states and communities that allow concealed and open carry increase. More people carrying will almost inevitably result in more self-defense motivated shootings. Surely some percentage of these will involve the injury to or death of innocent bystanders - assuming of course that the shooters are not 100% acurate 100% of the time.

The question will be what level of this sort of 'collateral damage" will be acceptable to the American public.

Phillip Allen
07-25-2012, 02:30 PM
Say a dozen people who were legally carrying were inside that movie theater when the shooting starts. They all jump up, guns drawn, looking for the bad guy. It's dark, people are screaming, smoke fills the air, total choas. Is there one bad guy or more? Who knows? There's lots of people with guns now running around in there. No way in Hell is Joe Average qualified to handle that situation.

Please post a few instances where armed citizens have stopped a mass murderer from killing in a public place.

while we're doing 'what-ifs' whit if half the patrons had guns and stood up and shot the poerson to their left? Play along now... WHAT IF???

RodSBT
07-25-2012, 02:32 PM
Well, an interesting list. Many instances of armed individuals stopping a variety of typically violent crimes against one or two people.

I see nothing that looks like an Aurora or Columbine, but then haven't gone through all the links. One where a nutter started taking a knife to strangers is closest - he wounded two, before being stopped. I wonder how the elapsed time compared with the much higher body-count Aurora event? Is it possible that part of the reason both for the lower death count, and the willingness of a concealed-carry citizen to step forwards with a handgun was because the nutter used a knife, rather than a high cap semi-auto rifle?
Yep, not much there like the Aurora, Co incident because those types of actions are extremely rare, not to mention many movie theaters, schools, gov buildings etc. ban the carrying of firearms so it tends to weed out the law abiding and leave the unarmed to be victimized by those who don't follow the law.

Nicholas Scheuer
07-25-2012, 02:37 PM
Don't have numbers, but reports of guns being used in Road Rage incidents certainly seems to be growing.

Captain Intrepid
07-25-2012, 02:44 PM
Wasn't there recently a very well publicised event where a passing young man defended himself against a brutal attack by a young black thug? In Stanford or Sanferd or something like that.

Flying Orca
07-25-2012, 03:02 PM
So what are your thoughts wrt to your post #6 ?

I think that the USA is keeping pretty uncivil company in that list. I think that the reasons are complicated, but not so complicated that legislation would not significantly improve the USA's firearm-related death rate. I think a shift in cultural values would help; my perception is that the USA glorifies violence in many forms, and that probably doesn't help matters. I think eliminating handguns would be a good place to start, and I think that evidence for my thought can be found in the experience of other countries.

And just because everyone seems to forget this, I'm a gun owner and hunter.

RodSBT
07-25-2012, 03:32 PM
They have been VERY widely debunked; it's been discussed here in the bilge many times, in the past. you're welcome to do some of the googling, however, if you think they are reliable numbers. Lott is well known for posting fraudulent data on many topics.

So you don't have any proof to back up your original claim?

MiddleAgesMan
07-25-2012, 03:56 PM
According to the assumers here, the streets, shops, malls, movie theaters etc. should be littered with bodies of those maimed and killed by their theoretical armed and incompetent private citizens who populate this great country. Would any of you please show evidence of all the mayhem you claim occurs when law abiding citizens use their firearms to protect themselves and others when confronted by bad guys? How many innocent bystanders are shot/killed during these incidents compared to those shot/killed by law enforcement?

Lay your cards out for all to see.

Who are these assumers and where did they say "the streets, shops, malls, movie theaters etc. should be littered with bodies of those maimed and killed by their theoretical armed and incompetent private citizens who populate this great country?"

But as long as you're asking questions based on false assumptions, have you stopped beating your wife?

John Smith
07-25-2012, 04:19 PM
According to the assumers here, the streets, shops, malls, movie theaters etc. should be littered with bodies of those maimed and killed by their theoretical armed and incompetent private citizens who populate this great country. Would any of you please show evidence of all the mayhem you claim occurs when law abiding citizens use their firearms to protect themselves and others when confronted by bad guys? How many innocent bystanders are shot/killed during these incidents compared to those shot/killed by law enforcement?

Lay your cards out for all to see.

Just look at our murder rate. It answers your question. All those guns make us so much safer.

John Smith
07-25-2012, 04:21 PM
So what are your thoughts wrt to your post #6 ?

I have a question for you. What would I need a gun to defend myself from, other than a guy with a gun?

ljb5
07-25-2012, 04:24 PM
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/07/24/Texan-accidentally-fires-shot-at-Walmart/UPI-45371343147222/?spt=hs&or=tn


23 year old doofus Todd Canady, who has a concealed carry permit, reaches for his wallet to pay at the local Walmart. He accidentally discharges his handgun into his buttocks. He also injures a woman and child behind him in line. When confronted by an off-duty police officer, he runs.

Now hes in jail

And here's another:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?150644-Cop-shoots-and-kills-son-after-reportedly-mistaking-him-for-an-intruder

================================================== ========================

If people were truly interested in security, they'd spend a lot more money putting bars on their windows and buying home security systems. These are not fool proof, of course, but neither is carrying a gun.

RodSBT
07-25-2012, 04:29 PM
There are only so many times that I am willing to repeat a search and C&P of stuff that has been shown in the bilge a few zillion times. Google is your friend.

Like I thought...nothing.

Peerie Maa
07-25-2012, 04:33 PM
The question will be what level of this sort of 'collateral damage" will be acceptable to the American public.
The American pro gun citizens will love it. 'Cos there will be more cold dead hands to pry the guns out of.

RodSBT
07-25-2012, 04:34 PM
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/07/24/Texan-accidentally-fires-shot-at-Walmart/UPI-45371343147222/?spt=hs&or=tn



And here's another:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?150644-Cop-shoots-and-kills-son-after-reportedly-mistaking-him-for-an-intruder

================================================== ========================

If people were truly interested in security, they'd spend a lot more money putting bars on their windows and buying home security systems. These are not fool proof, of course, but neither is carrying a gun.


Stupid people do stupid things but those examples don't fit the scenario in the OP (I could just as easily post drivers being negligent/stupid and show a much higher rate of death and destruction).
Can you do better?

RodSBT
07-25-2012, 04:36 PM
The American pro gun citizens will love it. 'Cos there will be more cold dead hands to pry the guns out of.


Quaint, albeit cliched sarcasm.
What do you have that pertains to the question in the op?

MiddleAgesMan
07-25-2012, 04:36 PM
Please answer my question and provide a link to prove your answer.

RodSBT
07-25-2012, 04:37 PM
I have a question for you. What would I need a gun to defend myself from, other than a guy with a gun?


You either haven't spent much time out in the real world or you are oblivious to your surroundings.
Try again and think hard.

Glen Longino
07-25-2012, 04:37 PM
Yep, not much there like the Aurora, Co incident because those types of actions are extremely rare, not to mention many movie theaters, schools, gov buildings etc. ban the carrying of firearms so it tends to weed out the law abiding and leave the unarmed to be victimized by those who don't follow the law.

Why are you so fearful?
I can almost smell the fearfulness dripping off you and Phillip every time you mention not having your guns handy!
Must be a sad way to live, always "assuming" that some other armed goofus is on his way to get you!
Really sad! Tsk, tsk!

John Smith
07-25-2012, 04:42 PM
You either haven't spent much time out in the real world or you are oblivious to your surroundings.
Try again and think hard.

That's just dodging the question. It's a simple question. So far, the only reason giving on these threads that it would be good to have people with guns in that theater has been that they might have stopped the bad guy with a gun.

What do I need a gun to defend myself from except a guy with a gun?

ljb5
07-25-2012, 04:44 PM
Stupid people do stupid things but those examples don't fit the scenario in the OP (I could just as easily post drivers being negligent/stupid and show a much higher rate of death and destruction).
Can you do better?

A guy with a concealed carry permit just shot himself, a woman and a child. I think that's pretty clear.

ljb5
07-25-2012, 04:45 PM
Trayvon Martin

Peerie Maa
07-25-2012, 04:47 PM
Quaint, albeit cliched sarcasm.
What do you have that pertains to the question in the op?
In case you had not noticed, we do not need to carry guns, our police are rarely armed, and then only specialists are armed. The only gun crime equivalent to your mayhem is among some gangs in a couple of our cities, and in my 60 years on this planet there have been less than five equivalents to your multiple killing incidents.
So I think that you question is ridiculous, and that you belong to a broken society.

TomF
07-25-2012, 05:04 PM
You either haven't spent much time out in the real world or you are oblivious to your surroundings.
Try again and think hard.

Rod, I've spent quite a bit of time in the "real world.". Nope, never been a victim of violent crime myself, but I did work with quite a bunch of teen criminals for a while, as I've mentioned before.

And with people who abused their families too. Ever see what an infantry hand-to-hand instructor can do to his 8 year old son, with a kick than sends the lad through his closet wall?

FWIW, there's a reason my daughter is training martial arts. Simply, the reason is that every adult woman who I've been close enough to to have the conversation ... Has at least one story of a near- or an actual rape. Or of being in a situation where it sure felt like a close thing. That includes my wife and her sister.

The question though, is what level of threat justifies a lethal-force response?

I've trained some movement patterns enough to ingrain the actions into reflex - and later learned some of the various "applications" for those movements. The neck cranks would be fatal. So would some of the spine hyper-extensions, when paired (as they are in Kata) with a hook punch to snap the hyper-extended joints.

It's disturbing, knowing that my body knows how to kill someone efficiently. And I can't think of any situation, barring protecting someone else from lethal attack, where I'd ever even consider it.

But every time you use a gun to stop a crime - even without firing - you've decided it's worth deploying lethal force.

Are you really in such daily risk of your or your loved ones' lives to prepare to kill, every time you go outside?

wardd
07-25-2012, 05:10 PM
I have a question for you. What would I need a gun to defend myself from, other than a guy with a gun?

how about a guy with a false voter card

ljb5
07-25-2012, 05:10 PM
Trayvon Martin

Cedric Rhyn
07-25-2012, 05:35 PM
I would make the same point. Where I live here in New Zealand it is possible to go for years without actually seeing a firearm in the metal, the very few police who have them available carry them in a lockbox in their cars and they have to log and report whenever a firearm is removed from that lockbox. Security guards are unarmed, gun owners are licenced, no pistols other than collectors who are audited and inspected regularly and specially licenced target club members. No military style weapons are allowed, not even pistol grips on rifles. No automatic firearms and storage of any firearm must be in a locked cabinet which is inspected from time to time.
We lose a hunter to poor hunting practices every year or two, but firearm murders are quite rare and self defence shootings almost unheard of, even the gangs dont use them much between themselves.

I note a report in Huffpost today, that a relatively small urban area in the USA has had 7 people killed by police so far this year ( they're having riots in the streets and I can understand that) , we as a country with a very much larger population than that little area might have had four such in a decade rather than one a month.
There are lots of stats around which suggest that the USA has on a per capita basis a very much higher rate of gun deaths than other "developed" countries. The stats vary according to source but it seems about 5 times higher than where Nick lives, and even about that compared with Canada where gun ownership is almost as high as in the USA just across the border.
If you think of the huge reaction to 9/11 with 3000 deaths, a real tragedy, and real act of war for sure, and compare it to the number of gun deaths per annum over the time from the twin towers until now, and think about the amazingly intrusive powers of the Dept of Homeland Security that resulted from 9/11 and the fact that no one seems willing to tackle the huge rate of gun deaths, there is a real gap in the reality there!

How to fix it? No idea, its so entrenched that there may be no solution to it. As I see it, there is a very pervasive culture within the USA that teaches that a gun can be the solution to a perceived threat or a problem. Its a culture that sadly is creeping out into other countries.

So heres a thing to think about, how many American politicians have been shot since, say, 1960? Start with Kennedy and end with Gabby Giffords and you'll see its depressingly regular. Then combine, say, Germany, France, England, Canada, Australia and NZ to get some comparison, how many assassinations or attempts have there been on their leaders? I know which I'd consider the better risk.

Cedric Rhyn
Rant over, for now.


In case you had not noticed, we do not need to carry guns, our police are rarely armed, and then only specialists are armed. The only gun crime equivalent to your mayhem is among some gangs in a couple of our cities, and in my 60 years on this planet there have been less than five equivalents to your multiple killing incidents.
So I think that you question is ridiculous, and that you belong to a broken society.

Glen Longino
07-25-2012, 05:44 PM
Thank you, Cedric Rhyn!
You obviously have more good sense in your little finger than RodSBT and Phillip Allen have in their entire bodies!

Lew Barrett
07-25-2012, 08:25 PM
That does it. I am moving to New Zealand. Even when it is winter here, they still have summer. Wooden boats are appreciated as the fine objects they are, and a man has a hope of return if owning one. Fine people seem to abound, even if their accents are another confusion for Americans (and not the only, or worst one for that matter) and they are the home of the original kiwi. Had a decent kiwi recently? Fabulous fruit. They have colorful birds and no poisonous snakes. It rains at times, and their are earthquakes, so I will feel at home. To top it all, just looking into a flushing toilet is cause for marvel. The water spins in the wrong direction!

Seriously......a sensible spot on the planet by and large.

wardd
07-25-2012, 08:28 PM
That does it. I am moving to New Zealand. Even when it is winter here, they still have summer. Wooden boats are appreciated as the fine objects they are, and a man has a hope of return if owning one. Fine people seem to abound, even if their accents are another confusion for Americans (and not the only, or worst one for that matter) and, they are the home of the original kiwi. Had a decent kiwi recently? Fabulous fruit. They have colorful birds and no poisonous snakes. It rains at times, and their are earthquakes, so I will feel at home. To top it all, just looking into a flushing toilet is cause for marvel. The water spins in the wrong direction!

Seriously......a sensible spot on the planet by and large.

don't forget the steering wheels in their cars

Lew Barrett
07-25-2012, 08:29 PM
don't forget the steering wheels in their cars

Wrong side, but I can deal with it. Got to get there one of these days, and Australia too. Too bad they are so far from the action!

David W Pratt
07-26-2012, 10:42 AM
Interestingly, there was another shooting in Aurora this year, on April 22, a guy entered a church and shot one of the attendees, a retired cop drew his concealed hand gun and killed the bad guy, incident over, two dead, one a bad guy.

Bob Adams
07-26-2012, 11:55 AM
A guy with a concealed carry permit just shot himself, a woman and a child. I think that's pretty clear.

You are right...it would have been much better if he had thrown them and himself off a bridge instead.

Canoeyawl
07-26-2012, 12:41 PM
Why are you so fearful?
I can almost smell the fearfulness dripping off you and Phillip every time you mention not having your guns handy


It may be more complicated than that.

Object sexuality or objectum sexuality, is a pronounced emotional and often romantic desire towards developing significant relationships with particular inanimate objects. Those individuals with this expressed preference may feel strong feelings of attraction, love, and commitment to certain items or structures of their fixation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_sexuality).

Chris Coose
07-26-2012, 12:55 PM
When the answer to gun violence is a need for more gun violence, I'll gladly step aside from the discussion.
Last night somebody wanted me to enter into a discussion regarding something Glenn Beck said. Same thing.

LeeG
07-26-2012, 03:23 PM
Say a dozen people who were legally carrying were inside that movie theater when the shooting starts. They all jump up, guns drawn, looking for the bad guy. It's dark, people are screaming, smoke fills the air, total choas. Is there one bad guy or more? Who knows? There's lots of people with guns now running around in there. No way in Hell is Joe Average qualified to handle that situation.

Please post a few instances where armed citizens have stopped a mass murderer from killing in a public place.

You forget the totemic power of the weapon. It's like having a big cross, garlic and holy water when vampires are around, which person would you like to be, the one with protection or the one without?

McMike
07-26-2012, 03:43 PM
You are right...it would have been much better if he had thrown them and himself off a bridge instead.

Would have been a lot more difficult . . . so your point was?

McMike
07-26-2012, 03:44 PM
while we're doing 'what-ifs' whit if half the patrons had guns and stood up and shot the poerson to their left? Play along now... WHAT IF???

Ridiculous and . . . well . . . ridiculous.

Phillip Allen
07-26-2012, 06:37 PM
Ridiculous and . . . well . . . ridiculous.

yes

John Smith
07-26-2012, 06:58 PM
This is an interesting topic, although no one has any good answers.

I'm not a supporter of guns past some of the more "basic" ones, and I'm not a strong supporter of those. Sans the second amendment, there is nothing in the constitution that would prohibit a citizen from owning a gun, so I think basing the argument on that amendment, though popular and generally accepted, is both wrong and unnecessary.

I don't think one has to be totally for or totally against guns, but I feel that puts me in another minority.

I simply don't believe that any effort at this point to limit the sale of guns will bring about the desired results. Romney made a bizarre comment on this issue. He wants to pre-determine who will use the guns in evil ways and not let them own guns. That's even less realistic.

If I could have on thing done it would be to have some show list the names of people killed by guns every day. The tragedy, to me, is that these "routine" killings fail to raise eyebrows. In fact, I'd like to see a list of everyone murdered every day, whether they were killed by gun or other.

And I still wonder what I need a gun to protect myself from other than people with guns

John Smith
07-26-2012, 07:13 PM
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/nightly-news/48326969#48326969

The part I referenced is about 3 minutes in.

Bob Adams
07-26-2012, 07:39 PM
Would have been a lot more difficult . . . so your point was?

The man wanted to do himself and the others in, methods vary.

ljb5
09-28-2012, 02:29 PM
According to the assumers here, the streets, shops, malls, movie theaters etc. should be littered with bodies of those maimed and killed by their theoretical armed and incompetent private citizens who populate this great country. Would any of you please show evidence of all the mayhem you claim occurs when law abiding citizens use their firearms to protect themselves and others when confronted by bad guys? How many innocent bystanders are shot/killed during these incidents compared to those shot/killed by law enforcement?

Lay your cards out for all to see.

Here's a tragic story.

The guy thought he was protecting himself from some sort of intruder, but instead killed his teenage son.

I would never be able to recover from the grief.

wardd
09-28-2012, 03:21 PM
i'm not anti gum, just anti a lot of incompetent people that have guns

ljb5
09-28-2012, 05:13 PM
i'm not anti gum, just anti a lot of incompetent people that have guns

I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti tragedy.

I could imagine nothing worse than accidentally killing my own son. If it came down to it, I'd let an intruder have my VCR if that was the price I had to pay.

Sadly, the choice is never so clear cut. There is so much uncertanity.

WX
09-28-2012, 05:25 PM
Wrong side, but I can deal with it. Got to get there one of these days, and Australia too. Too bad they are so far from the action!
it depends on what action you want to be close to I guess.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-29/four-dead-after-disgruntled-employee-opens-fire/4287188

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/americas/united-states/120928/father-shoots-and-kills-his-15-year-old-son-duri

Peter Malcolm Jardine
09-28-2012, 05:29 PM
Well, it's true that you're only twelfth-worst in the world for firearms related deaths. South Africa, Colombia, El Salvador, Jamaica, Honduras, Guatemala, Swaziland, Brazil, Estonia, Panama, and Mexica are all worse. Clearly nothing to be concerned about.


http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnz9ayDT6s1qe8w05.gif

WX
09-28-2012, 05:32 PM
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnz9ayDT6s1qe8w05.gif
It was good wasn't it.:D

wardd
09-28-2012, 05:49 PM
I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti tragedy.

I could imagine nothing worse than accidentally killing my own son. If it came down to it, I'd let an intruder have my VCR if that was the price I had to pay.

Sadly, the choice is never so clear cut. There is so much uncertanity.

a gun shouldn't be easy to hand when you're sleeping, those first few seconds when waking up could be tragic

Phillip Allen
09-28-2012, 08:36 PM
Here's a tragic story.

The guy thought he was protecting himself from some sort of intruder, but instead killed his teenage son.

I would never be able to recover from the grief.

dateline?

SMARTINSEN
09-28-2012, 08:56 PM
dateline?
Have you ever considered that LJ is just trying to get a rise out of you, Phillip?

And that it worked?

If you want something more recent do a quick Google of "Minnesota killing."

RodSBT
09-28-2012, 10:55 PM
Have you ever considered that LJ is just trying to get a rise out of you, Phillip?

And that it worked?

If you want something more recent do a quick Google of "Minnesota killing."

The only one getting a rise from LJb5 is LJb5 himself.
And even then he has to work at it to accomplish the task.

McMike
09-29-2012, 06:03 AM
http://www.theledger.com/article/20120929/NEWS/120929288?Title=Connecticut-Father-Mistakenly-Shoots-Son-in-Ski-Mask-Breaking-Into-Home-Next-Door

Dateline, this week.

Sadly, it happened again.

John Smith
09-29-2012, 07:49 AM
According to the assumers here, the streets, shops, malls, movie theaters etc. should be littered with bodies of those maimed and killed by their theoretical armed and incompetent private citizens who populate this great country. Would any of you please show evidence of all the mayhem you claim occurs when law abiding citizens use their firearms to protect themselves and others when confronted by bad guys? How many innocent bystanders are shot/killed during these incidents compared to those shot/killed by law enforcement?

Lay your cards out for all to see.

Links to anyone whose said this please?

My memory may be failing, but I don't remember anything quite so blatant.

I do remember asking that if you are in a situation and you draw YOUR weapon to play hero and YOUR bullet kills my granddaughter, what is YOUR liability? I don't remember an answer.

An armed citizen of well-meaning attempting to stop a crime can lead to several possible results. NOt all of them are good.

ljb5
09-29-2012, 08:55 AM
dateline?

Sorry, I forgot the link. http://abcnews.go.com/US/police-masked-teen-killed-dad-knife/story?id=17349516#.UGb90E3AeSo

It happened early Thursday morning.

I wasn't trying to get a rise out of anyone... I was just providing a straight-forward answer to the question posed in the first post.

Looks like, in the past 24 hours, they've added some more detail to the story. Doesn't make it any less of a tragedy, in my opinion.

WX
09-29-2012, 01:50 PM
Links to anyone whose said this please?

My memory may be failing, but I don't remember anything quite so blatant.

I do remember asking that if you are in a situation and you draw YOUR weapon to play hero and YOUR bullet kills my granddaughter, what is YOUR liability? I don't remember an answer.

An armed citizen of well-meaning attempting to stop a crime can lead to several possible results. NOt all of them are good.
He's not really interested in any answers, Rob's just trying to push his own mindset.

John Smith
09-29-2012, 01:53 PM
He's not really interested in any answers, Rob's just trying to push his own mindset.
That's fine with me, as long as his mindset has some facts to back it up.

WX
09-29-2012, 02:09 PM
That's fine with me, as long as his mindset has some facts to back it up.

Facts? They just get in the way, best just stick with good old emotive language.

skipper68
09-30-2012, 02:00 AM
I am anti gun.
We have is a 9MM for him. I
dumped my 357 Mag.
I keep the little 22. My opinion, is don't board my boat.

WX
09-30-2012, 03:02 AM
I am anti gun.
We have is a 9MM for him. I
dumped my 357 Mag.
I keep the little 22. My opinion, is don't board my boat.

Owning a gun is not being anti gun Skip...it is being pro some guns.