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Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 06:45 AM
. . .many people attended the film dressed in Batman-related costumes.


Witnesses said the gunman entered the theater through an emergency exit door - a black-clad 6-foot-tall man wearing a riot helmet, goggles and bullet-proof vest


Fourteen people were killed and at least 50 others wounded early Friday when a gunman opened fire at a midnight screening of the summer blockbuster "The Dark Knight Rises" near Denver, authorities and witnesses said.

Aurora Police Chief Dan Oates told reporters that 10 people died at the scene and four others died after being taken to local hospitals. At least 50 other people were injured, Oates said, including a six-year-old girl.


Witnesses said tear gas also went off in the theater.


A 24-year-old male suspect was apprehended in the shopping center's parking lot, Oates said.


The incident occurred in the Century 16 Movie Theaters at the Aurora Town Center, police told NBC News. Aurora is a suburb less than 10 miles east of downtown Denver.



...

jonboy
07-20-2012, 06:50 AM
I'm waiting to hear the 'if all children were made to carry guns by law this would never have happened' argument.
terrible terrible but these incidents roll around with frightening regularity.

Rich Jones
07-20-2012, 06:54 AM
Guns don't kill people. People kill people. With the help of the NRA...
When will this country learn?
God bless the victims.

Peerie Maa
07-20-2012, 07:00 AM
Don't turn this into a gun lobby thread. The guy threw teargas (how he got access to that stuff needs looking into) so he could have thrown homemade pipe bombs if he had no access to guns. This was not about the weapon, but about what was going on in the head of a nutter.

Peerie Maa
07-20-2012, 07:02 AM
More here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492

bob winter
07-20-2012, 07:05 AM
WTF, indeed. Makes the recent event in Toronto look sort of pale.

Bob Adams
07-20-2012, 07:11 AM
Don't turn this into a gun lobby thread. The guy threw teargas (how he got access to that stuff needs looking into) so he could have thrown homemade pipe bombs if he had no access to guns. This was not about the weapon, but about what was going on in the head of a nutter.

Thank you.

Chris Coose
07-20-2012, 07:32 AM
This was not about the weapon,

"Oh, spare me please." Frank Zappa

Peerie Maa
07-20-2012, 07:42 AM
"Oh, spare me please." Frank Zappa
You a psychologist then?

Whilst it is true that most of these atrocities, both here in the UK and in the States use firearms, we have no idea whether that is relevant or not. May be the perp does get some gratification from watching the effect of each shot. I don't know and I am sure that you don't either. So my argument still stands. The UK does not have the same cultural obsession with guns as the US , but unfortunately we also gave similar events with gunmen going on the rampage. So I hold to the view that this is not a gun lobby issue.

Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 07:43 AM
You a psychologist then?.close

Chris Coose
07-20-2012, 07:48 AM
Well, I do have a master's degree in psychology and work full time in a specific mental health practice as a clinician and supervisor.
Spent a great deal of time in juvenile corrections and since long before I became fodder for the SE Asia meat grinder I have been studying peace.

Peerie Maa
07-20-2012, 07:51 AM
Fairynyff. How often do you diagnose without the facts?

Chris Coose
07-20-2012, 08:00 AM
Diagnose? Crazy young masked man shows up and shoots 60 or so innocent people and it's not about his gun?
How long have we been been in the debate about the use of atomic weapons on the Japanese, the fire bombing of Dresden?

Chris Coose
07-20-2012, 08:06 AM
if he had no access to guns.

That's the crux of the argument.

George Jung
07-20-2012, 08:07 AM
I suspect this 'nutter' would have had a more difficult time perpetrating this mass murder, were guns not so available. But look at his preparation - the scenario he chose allowed him easy access, and with his 'costume', he wouldn't have attracted attention, initially. Bombs could've been used - but I'd suspect, been more difficult to acheive his 'goal'. If anyone had been carrying concealed, I wonder how that might've changed things - probably not at all. He came in, ready to shoot everyone. Most of us don't move from 'normal' mode to 'response' that quickly, I'd suspect. Bottom line - if someone wishes to commit a crime like this, unlikely anyone is going to be able to prevent it. AFA the gun argument - been argued a hundred times here. Wouldn't bother me if they weren't so available, but truthfully - it won't stop a nutter. The real problem here is, this A-hole wanted to commit mass murder, by whatever means. How'd he get to that point?

Peerie Maa
07-20-2012, 08:11 AM
Diagnose? Crazy young masked man shows up and shoots 60 or so innocent people and it's not about his gun?
How long have we been been in the debate about the use of atomic weapons on the Japanese, the fire bombing of Dresden?

Percentages give us a better mental grasp on the problem

Of knife single mass murderers that are known to us, (11 at present), two in the USA, one in Germany, most have been in Asia, and most have targeted children in schools. Similar to the copycat active killer murders by firearms, the frightening factor with mass murder by edged weapons is that 25% of these occurred in a two-month period between March and May 2010, (China). Of the 11 mass murders by a single person using a knife known to us, there were 46 murdered, and 139 wounded. The average mass murder/attempt knife incident resulted in 16 casualties. In 92% of the cases, the specific weapon of choice was a knife. The remaining 8% was by a single actor with a meat cleaver who caused 9 murders and 12 wounded.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre
Challenge your own assumptions.

I don't follow your references to acts of war?

Peerie Maa
07-20-2012, 08:14 AM
That's the crux of the argument.
As I said above, with no gun he could have used other weapons, either close and personal or at a distance.

willmarsh3
07-20-2012, 08:14 AM
WTF is right. Tragic. Tuscaloosa, Toronto and now this.

Bob Adams
07-20-2012, 09:23 AM
As I said above, with no gun he could have used other weapons, either close and personal or at a distance.

Early reports said he threw tear gas cannisters.

George Jung
07-20-2012, 09:27 AM
He also opened fire during a 'gunfight' sequence of the movie - it wasn't immediately obvious what was going on. But also read the shooting went on for 20 minutes. Someone with a concealed could have been effective.

Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 09:30 AM
the shooting went on for 20 minutesWhere the hell was the omnipresent movie theatre cop? There is always one parked in the firelane of every multiplex at night.

McMike
07-20-2012, 09:40 AM
Being a frequent movie goer... Words cannot express. What those poor people went through.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 09:42 AM
That's the crux of the argument.


Yep, the victims of Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot et al would have had the same thought..
...if they hadn't been murdered by their gov, unarmed.

B_B
07-20-2012, 09:44 AM
The relevant point quoted below, to me, is children. It's a heck of a lot easier to kill children with a knife, in a locked classroom, than a theater full of 20-something males with adrenaline rushing. Regarding atomic bombs and carpet bombing Dresden - as with the knife - the type of weapon determines the type of attack (I don't recall much knife bombing of Dresden) and access to certain weapons (atomic bombs) are outlawed for personal use specifically because of the type of attack they are designed to accommodate.



Percentages give us a better mental grasp on the problem

Of knife single mass murderers that are known to us, (11 at present), two in the USA, one in Germany, most have been in Asia, and most have targeted children in schools. Similar to the copycat active killer murders by firearms, the frightening factor with mass murder by edged weapons is that 25% of these occurred in a two-month period between March and May 2010, (China).

John of Phoenix
07-20-2012, 09:56 AM
Yep, the victims of Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot et al would have had the same thought..
...if they hadn't been murdered by their gov, unarmed.Good luck taking on the US military with your six shooter(s).

Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 10:26 AM
tragedies are happening which make your complaints seem pretty small... there's been a mass killing here

god forbid if it had happened in Canada

CK 17
07-20-2012, 10:52 AM
We've made our bed and now we have to lie in it. We have chosen unlimited unrestricted access to guns by electing people that support that. As long as we keeping making this choice we are saying this is an acceptable cost of that choice.

Edited to add: when I vote I usually don't give much thought to guns. I usually vote labor issues. I probably still won't give much thought to guns in the election booth.

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 10:55 AM
We've made our bed and now we have to lie in it. We have chosen unlimited unrestricted access to guns by electing people that support that. As long as we keeping making this choice we are saying this is an acceptable cost of that choice.

If you believe that, you are wrong... I'm struggling not to call you a liar though... no, no I won't... you have only made a mistake

B_B
07-20-2012, 11:01 AM
god forbid if it had happened in Canada
god forbid it happen anywhere

Dave Gray
07-20-2012, 11:02 AM
If you believe that, you are wrong... I'm struggling not to call you a liar though... no, no I won't... you have only made a mistake
If elected I will advocate a mandatory assault weapon per household!

CK 17
07-20-2012, 11:03 AM
If you believe that, you are wrong... I'm struggling not to call you a liar though... no, no I won't... you have only made a mistake

It seems like you did in a very clever and brilliant way. I'm impressed. I guess we could debate the minor details. As compared to other countries I should have said. Anyway, I stand by my original point.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 11:05 AM
Good luck taking on the US military with your six shooter(s).

You go ahead and sit on your side with the unarmed servants, sucking up to tyrants and I'll stay on my side with 100 million+ armed citizens.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 11:07 AM
If elected I will advocate a mandatory assault weapon per household!

Cool, you can have my vote, Switzerland has done very well with the same policy for decades.

Nicholas Scheuer
07-20-2012, 11:14 AM
OK, let's talk about Switzerland. I used to work with several, and so know something about them.

People here keep ranting about how "free" we are in Ameica, and how "socialist" everyong in Europe is. So what makes the Suisse so different from us when it comes to someone grabbing an automatic rifle and going into a public theatre to shoot people dead for no reason?

BTW, the shooting in question today happened about 20-30 miles from Columbine.

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 11:17 AM
OK, let's talk about Switzerland. I used to work with several, and so know something about them.

People here keep ranting about how "free" we are in Ameica, and how "socialist" everyong in Europe is. So what makes the Suisse so different from us when it comes to someone grabbing an automatic rifle and going into a public theatre to shoot people dead for no reason?

BTW, the shooting in question today happened about 20-30 miles from Columbine.

I want to add that there is/was a reason... we just don't get to know what it was... it's is a very small point and really doesn't change this discussion

Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 11:20 AM
People here keep ranting about how "free" we are in Ameica, and how "socialist" everyong in Europe is. So what makes the Suisse so different from us when it comes to someone grabbing an automatic rifle and going into a public theatre to shoot people dead for no reason? Switzerland is a racially homogenous society with relatively less social inequalities - they have higher levels of education and less stratification of wealth than we do. They also do not have quite the illegal drug trade problem that we do. They treat drug use as a health problem instead of as a criminal problem. Just to name a few things. . .

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 11:21 AM
O... So what makes the Suisse so different from us when it comes to someone grabbing an automatic rifle and going into a public theatre to shoot people dead for no reason? .....

Same reason people in Montana don't go around blasting each other like they do in Chicago even though the per capita firearms ownership is much higher in MT. than in Chi town.
Same reason it's always been, Nick.
It's about people, not weapons.

Shang
07-20-2012, 11:59 AM
...The guy threw teargas (how he got access to that stuff needs looking into)...

In less than three minutes I found teargas grenades for sale on line. One dealer is having a sale on them. Only $16.49 !

http://www.keepshooting.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/l/clear-out-teargasbig_1.jpg

We could save a lot of money if we stock up before they sell out.
The same dealer has already sold out on several models of flack jackets.

Old Dryfoot
07-20-2012, 12:07 PM
How does one hunt deer with tear gas? Also, why when the product label says "For Law Enforcement Only", can anyone over the age of 21 buy it online?

Peerie Maa
07-20-2012, 12:23 PM
In less than three minutes I found teargas grenades for sale on line. One dealer is having a sale on them. Only $16.49 !

http://www.keepshooting.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/l/clear-out-teargasbig_1.jpg

We could save a lot of money if we stock up before they sell out.
The same dealer has already sold out on several models of flack jackets.
Sometimes you have to think that rampant unregulated capitalism is a really bad thing.

B_B
07-20-2012, 12:28 PM
Sometimes you have to think that rampant unregulated capitalism is a really bad thing.
It's not rampant unregulated capitalism, it's rampant unregulated fear and bravado.

Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 12:35 PM
So what about this sophisticated bomb that's been found in the gunman's apartment?

Old Dryfoot
07-20-2012, 12:36 PM
Sometimes you have to think that rampant unregulated capitalism is a really bad thing.

Anything for a price... http://www.tannerite.com/

Bob Adams
07-20-2012, 12:56 PM
I'm waiting to hear the 'if all children were made to carry guns by law this would never have happened' argument.
terrible terrible but these incidents roll around with frightening regularity.

Who the hell EVER advocated children carrying guns? Wouldn't have been a bad thing if there had been an adult carrying one in that theatre though, might have stopped it, might not.

Peerie Maa
07-20-2012, 12:57 PM
It's not rampant unregulated capitalism, it's rampant unregulated fear and bravado.
No that's what might have created a demand, which it is stupid to pander to. Is it not possible that without such stuff available, there would be less fear?

2MeterTroll
07-20-2012, 01:03 PM
its colorado I will bet that someone was carrying in that theater. as usual the news ignores those folks and focuses on the military folks that panicked. shame those guys didnt get proper training in boot camp. sad thing that should not have happened but it did and folks need to consider that these folks have a mental problem or they are sane and the rest of us have a problem.



Who the hell EVER advocated children carrying guns? Wouldn't have been a bad thing if there had been an adult carrying one in that theatre though, might have stopped it, might not.

PhaseLockedLoop
07-20-2012, 01:31 PM
How does one hunt deer with tear gas?

It's illegal use chemical weapons on deer, anyway. Now back to our regular scheduled programming....

Old Dryfoot
07-20-2012, 01:35 PM
It's illegal use chemical weapons on deer, anyway. Now back to our regular scheduled programming....

So there is no valid reason for anyone in the general public to purchase tear gas. I understand now, thanks for clearing that up.

johnw
07-20-2012, 02:19 PM
"Oh, spare me please." Frank Zappa

Even in Sweden, a nutter can do this sort of thing.

Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 02:20 PM
Even in Sweden, a nutter can do this sort of thing.Are you confusing Sweden with Norway?

johnw
07-20-2012, 02:22 PM
Are you confusing Sweden with Norway?

Why yes, I believe I am.

Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 03:11 PM
2 .40 calibre Glocks
1 AR-15 in .223
1 Remington 870 12 gauge tactical shotgun

All purchased legally. . .

multiple hundreds of rounds of ammunition

Full tactical ballistic body armor, including leggings, groin and throat protector and helmet.

Wonder why he peacefully surrendered to the police???

Old Dryfoot
07-20-2012, 03:33 PM
Because he was a coward standing behind a gun, and couldn't screw himself up enough to face someone else who also had a gun?

B_B
07-20-2012, 03:34 PM
...Wonder why he peacefully surrendered to the police???
20 minutes of rage and mayhem gave him time to reflect?

Bobby of Tulsa
07-20-2012, 03:38 PM
Because he was a coward standing behind a gun, and couldn't screw himself up enough to face someone else who also had a gun. +1 It's easy to kill, not so much to be killed. Coward is to good of word for them.

Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 03:41 PM
20 minutes of rage and mayhem gave him time to reflect?I can't imagine. Thankfully.

A police spokesman just said that there were nearly 500 calls to 911 within 1 to 2 minutes of the gunman opening fire.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 03:56 PM
At some point Americans need to realize that the all knowing gubbermint can't protect them and that we are left with the decision of whether to keep bending over and taking it or grow a spine and fight back.

This punk could have been tackled and beat senseless (let alone an armed citizen taking him out) long before he shot 70+ people.

One well placed head shot would have fixed Holmes need for a lead injection.

B_B
07-20-2012, 03:56 PM
I can't imagine. Thankfully.

A police spokesman just said that there were nearly 500 calls to 911 within 1 to 2 minutes of the gunman opening fire.
I have long been an advocate for cell phone blockers in theaters...I'm rethinking my position (they should still throw morons out who let theirs ring, though).

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 04:02 PM
I can't imagine. Thankfully.

A police spokesman just said that there were nearly 500 calls to 911 within 1 to 2 minutes of the gunman opening fire.

not a criticism, I"m glad we have it but 911 was sold to the public as a cure for this sort of thing...

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 04:03 PM
At some point Americans need to realize that the all knowing gubbermint can't protect them and that we are left with the decision of whether to keep bending over and taking it or grow a spine and fight back.

This punk could have been tackled and beat senseless (let alone an armed citizen taking him out) long before he shot 70+ people.

One well placed head shot would have fixed Holmes need for a lead injection.

were the lights turned on?

johnw
07-20-2012, 04:03 PM
+1 It's easy to kill, not so much to be killed. Coward is to good of word for them.

Studies of soldiers have found the opposite to be true of most of us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing:_The_Psychological_Cost_of_Learning_to_ Kill_in_War_and_Society

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 04:05 PM
PhD student... bright future and so on... ?

Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 04:08 PM
not a criticism, I"m glad we have it but 911 was sold to the public as a cure for this sort of thing...Oh please, lay off the psychology, its origins are firmly in having a standard unified and centralized contact of emergency services - fire, police, ambulance - across all jurisdictions. Its promotion in the United States, which followed Canada and the U.K. was by a fire chiefs association. Where do you come up with this **** Phillip?

Bobby of Tulsa
07-20-2012, 04:09 PM
Studies of soldiers have found the opposite to be true of most of us. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing:_The_Psychological_Cost_of_Learning_to_ Kill_in_War_and_Society I can only speak from what I know. Hindsight is a different animal.
'

Nicholas Scheuer
07-20-2012, 04:09 PM
Colorado has "concealed cary", RodSBT. Evidently none were in attendance. Or maybe they just like to have a bulge in their pants and/or purses.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 04:12 PM
were the lights turned on?

Anyone who carries responsibly at night has a flashlight with them, whether the lights were on or not is moot.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 04:13 PM
Colorado has "concealed cary", RodSBT. Evidently none were in attendance. Or maybe they just like to have a bulge in their pants and/or purses.

Whats the point Nicholas?

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 04:19 PM
Anyone who carries responsibly at night has a flashlight with them, whether the lights were on or not is moot.

not moot... people were stampeding and flashlights don't furnish much light in a smoky environment... must have been chaos... if I had been at the movie AND had a gun AND not been shot down in the first volley... and, and, and... there is no way I would casually shoot over the heads of everyone without a positive id... it doesn't sound to me like the chaos was conducive to such a decision at all… not to mention that ANY patron there would have seen ME as the perp as soon as I pulled the gun

Second guessing isn’t going to work here

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 04:23 PM
not moot... people were stampeding and flashlights don't furnish much light in a smoky environment... must have been chaos... if I had been at the movie AND had a gun AND not been shot down in the first volley... and, and, and... there is no way I would casually shoot over the heads of everyone without a positive id... it doesn't sound to me like the chaos was conducive to such a decision at all… not to mention that ANY patron there would have seen ME as the perp as soon as I pulled the gun

Second guessing isn’t going to work here


You're right Phillip, better to dwell on excuses for failure than find solutions to prevail.

B_B
07-20-2012, 04:25 PM
n... if I had been at the movie AND had a gun AND not been shot down in the first volley... and, and, and... there is no way I would casually shoot over the heads of everyone without a positive id... it doesn't sound to me like the chaos was conducive to such a decision at all… not to mention that ANY patron there would have seen ME as the perp as soon as I pulled the gun

Two very good points raised. Thanks. I cannot imagine the carnage if a couple yahoos had pulled guns trying to be heroes.

Old Dryfoot
07-20-2012, 04:27 PM
not moot... people were stampeding and flashlights don't furnish much light in a smoky environment... must have been chaos... if I had been at the movie AND had a gun AND not been shot down in the first volley... and, and, and... there is no way I would casually shoot over the heads of everyone without a positive id... it doesn't sound to me like the chaos was conducive to such a decision at all… not to mention that ANY patron there would have seen ME as the perp as soon as I pulled the gun

Second guessing isn’t going to work here

You need to post more stuff like this.
Cheers!

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 04:30 PM
Two very good points raised. Thanks. I cannot imagine the carnage if a couple yahoos had pulled guns trying to be heroes.

Wouldn't want to be a "hero" to protect ones family. Better to just lie there and take it while the wife and kids get plugged cuz only "yahoos" carry guns.

Old Dryfoot
07-20-2012, 04:33 PM
Wouldn't want to be a "hero" to protect ones family. Better to just lie there and take it while the wife and kids get plugged cuz only "yahoos" carry guns.

Someone could have just as likely been the "hero" that shot a police office dressed in tactical gear in a dark theater.

John Smith
07-20-2012, 04:34 PM
I'm waiting to hear the 'if all children were made to carry guns by law this would never have happened' argument.
terrible terrible but these incidents roll around with frightening regularity.

I'm chiming in a bit late here. WTF doesn't generally intrigue me.

I'd like the NRA to explain how this guy would have committed this same crime if he had to use a knife. That said, I also await for someone to write a workable gun control law.

mikefrommontana
07-20-2012, 04:34 PM
Much like the Gifford shooting in Arizona, this demonstrates the extreme difficulty to counter a threat -- though with 20 minutes it might have been possible, but only to somebody with decent training in similar situations (far beyond a basic practical pistol shooting course).

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 04:35 PM
You're right Phillip, better to dwell on excuses for failure than find solutions to prevail.

alright, I don't actually know what I would have done and it seems likely I wouldn't have been of much use but it is 'possible' that I would have tried to assist in evacuating the theater and calming people... I might work toward the perp while I was doing it. I might have gotten a clear shot from a 'safe for the patrons' position but it certainly isn't a sure thing. I might have been shot as well... The only thing I can claim that I might have done (from past experience) is that I would have kept relatively calm and watched for an opportunity to do something positive... BUT… I might have wet my pants and trampled small children in my effort to save my worthless hide...

John Smith
07-20-2012, 04:37 PM
Don't turn this into a gun lobby thread. The guy threw teargas (how he got access to that stuff needs looking into) so he could have thrown homemade pipe bombs if he had no access to guns. This was not about the weapon, but about what was going on in the head of a nutter.

It will be a gun thread, because this is another "nutter" with a gun. He could have used a pipe bomb if he had no access to a gun, but we'll never know if he would have.

Nutters and guns don't mix well. I have no idea, however, how one seriously keeps guns out of the hands of anyone. Efforts to do so would prove futile.

John Smith
07-20-2012, 04:40 PM
As I said above, with no gun he could have used other weapons, either close and personal or at a distance.

I think you fool yourself when you think crimes committed with guns would be committed without guns. I think those who believe we can pass laws to keep bad guys from getting guns and doing bad things with them are also fooling themselves.

How many underage people get their hands on booze even though it's not legal? If one cannot buy a gun legally, he will buy one illegally.

B_B
07-20-2012, 04:40 PM
Wouldn't want to be a "hero" to protect ones family. Better to just lie there and take it while the wife and kids get plugged cuz only "yahoos" carry guns.
If that's what you gathered from my post, then bully for you...but it's not what I said.

I also cannot imagine living in fear the way you appear to.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 04:41 PM
alright, I don't actually know what I would have done and it seems likely I wouldn't have been of much use but it is 'possible' that I would have tried to assist in evacuating the theater and calming people... I might work toward the perp while I was doing it. I might have gotten a clear shot from a 'safe for the patrons' position but it certainly isn't a sure thing. I might have been shot as well... The only thing I can claim that I might have done (from past experience) is that I would have kept relatively calm and watched for an opportunity to do something positive... BUT… I might have wet my pants and trampled small children in my effort to save my worthless hide...


All well and good.
However, I doubt seriously you would have pulled a George Costanza in the end.;)

htom
07-20-2012, 04:41 PM
In Colorado, you can, indeed, get a concealed carry permit. And it allows you to carry in places where it's not forbidden.

The theater was a no-guns zone, concealed carry not allowed.

Worked about as well as it usually does.

So, the next time, as a CCW holder, do you obey the law that says leave the gun elsewhere? Remember, if you're caught, you might lose all of your firearms "rights".

Paul Pless
07-20-2012, 04:45 PM
Dude was wearing full body ballistic armor. I wonder at the effectiveness of a typical ccw load.

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 04:47 PM
Dude was wearing full body ballistic armor. I wonder at the effectiveness of a typical ccw load.

not much... maybe. I understand it is much like being hit with a dull baseball bat... it could stand you up or lay you down, just no penitration

BrianW
07-20-2012, 04:47 PM
The theater was a no-guns zone, concealed carry not allowed.

Worked about as well as it usually does.

So, the next time, as a CCW holder, do you obey the law that says leave the gun elsewhere? Remember, if you're caught, you might lose all of your firearms "rights".

I was wondering about that. Maybe the theater will be sued by an injured CCW holder?

John Smith
07-20-2012, 04:48 PM
At some point Americans need to realize that the all knowing gubbermint can't protect them and that we are left with the decision of whether to keep bending over and taking it or grow a spine and fight back.

This punk could have been tackled and beat senseless (let alone an armed citizen taking him out) long before he shot 70+ people.

One well placed head shot would have fixed Holmes need for a lead injection.

You are making a number of assumptions that are dangerous.

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 04:48 PM
I was wondering about that. Maybe the theater will be sued by an injured CCW holder?

not THAT would be worth keeping up with in the bilge

John Smith
07-20-2012, 04:49 PM
not a criticism, I"m glad we have it but 911 was sold to the public as a cure for this sort of thing...

Can you document that? 911 serves to quickly notify authorities of an emergency; not prevent the emergency.

B_B
07-20-2012, 04:50 PM
Another WTF? Lady who just missed the shooting in Toronto last month, died in the Colorado shooting.

A 24-year-old journalist who left the Eaton Centre food court mere minutes before the deadly shooting in June, is among the victims of a shooting in Colorado. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/colorado-shooting-victim-narrowly-missed-eaton-centre-shooting/article4429853/)
Jay Meloff, a Markham junior hockey player, says his girlfriend Jessica Ghawi was killed when a gunman barged into a crowded Denver-area theatre during a midnight showing of The Dark Knight Rises, and opened fire, killing at least 12 people and injuring at least 50 others. (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/colorado-shooting-victim-narrowly-missed-eaton-centre-shooting/article4429853/)

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 04:50 PM
You are making a number of assumptions that are dangerous.

you are right about the assumptions... however, it was already dangerous to be there and probably couldn't have been made much worse without you making assumptions about a firefight

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 04:51 PM
a thought that's been nagging at me :
would it be better to leave it dark or turn on the lights?

just a thought and actually has no bearing on this tragedy

John Smith
07-20-2012, 04:51 PM
Anyone who carries responsibly at night has a flashlight with them, whether the lights were on or not is moot.

If you have 100 people carrying, how many would be doing so responsibly?

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 04:54 PM
....I also cannot imagine living in fear the way you appear to.


Anytime someone suggests fighting back when attacked, especially if it includes being prepared by carrying a firearm and actually using it if needed, there is always someone who hides behind their perceived higher moral standing to try and either belittle the subject of their scorn or throw out an insult of some assumed psychological inadequacy.

Dear sir, I live in reality not fear.
I sleep soundly at night knowing that I have the tools and even a modicum of knowledge in how to use those tools to protect my family.
If you want to live in the land of Timothy Treadwell, so be it, but keep your personal problems to yourself.

Dead people don't walk the moral high road.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 04:58 PM
a thought that's been nagging at me :
would it be better to leave it dark or turn on the lights?

just a thought and actually has no bearing on this tragedy

Actually Phillip, post action analysis is a good thing.
Its one of those processes that helped man crawl out of the mud.

John Smith
07-20-2012, 05:00 PM
you are right about the assumptions... however, it was already dangerous to be there and probably couldn't have been made much worse without you making assumptions about a firefight

According to a post a couple of posts up, this guy was wearing body armor. Someone shooting at him would likely have increased his shooting and more would be dead. Also a possibility in this situation the guy who plays hero misses his target.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 05:00 PM
If you have 100 people carrying, how many would be doing so responsibly?

I don't know, John? How many people in this country drive cars and what percentage are responsible in that practice?
The death rate from autos and the usage of firearms is about the same.

Glen Longino
07-20-2012, 05:00 PM
not a criticism, I"m glad we have it but 911 was sold to the public as a cure for this sort of thing...

It was Not!

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 05:05 PM
...Someone shooting at him would likely have increased his shooting and more would be dead...

An assumption based on what?

John Smith
07-20-2012, 05:06 PM
a thought that's been nagging at me :
would it be better to leave it dark or turn on the lights?

just a thought and actually has no bearing on this tragedy
I think it's an excellent question. Maybe leaving it dark kept him from finding more targets.

For all the headlines and wall to wall coverage this gets, I'd like to put it into perspective. Drunk drivers may kill people in smaller numbers per event, but they are just as tragic to the families involved.

I think we need to accept that this stuff can and will happen from time to time. We don't have to like it, but I see no practical way of preventing it.

John Smith
07-20-2012, 05:09 PM
I don't know, John? How many people in this country drive cars and what percentage are responsible in that practice?
The death rate from autos and the usage of firearms is about the same.

That's kind of my point. Odds are that someone in this theater who was carrying his own gun would like not handle the situtation responsibly.

We can only conject as to how an armed person in the audience might have made this better or worse. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that more often than not, or at least as often as not, such an armed individual would make the situation worse.

John Smith
07-20-2012, 05:12 PM
An assumption based on what?

A few posts up we are told the culprit wore body armor and a handgun might not have harmed him, sans an accurate head shot, which I don't believe is all that easy to do with a handgun. You assume some expert marksman would take this guy out with one great shot. Maybe, maybe not. If not, do you think the situation improves?

htom
07-20-2012, 05:21 PM
a thought that's been nagging at me :
would it be better to leave it dark or turn on the lights?

just a thought and actually has no bearing on this tragedy

I was taught to turn on the lights. Makes it easier for the audience to see how to escape. Shooter in this kind of thing doesn't need to see to aim, just shoot waist high into the seating.

Nicholas Scheuer
07-20-2012, 05:22 PM
The major point is, RodSBT, CC is supposed to cover situations like this, according to proponents, anyway. Wasn't aware of "Verboten Zones" (Illinois in not a CC State).

The minor point is, some people consider guns a penis substitute.


Two points there; let's get up to speed, RodSBT.

htom
07-20-2012, 05:24 PM
That's kind of my point. Odds are that someone in this theater who was carrying his own gun would like not handle the situtation responsibly.

We can only conject as to how an armed person in the audience might have made this better or worse. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that more often than not, or at least as often as not, such an armed individual would make the situation worse.

Your conjecture isn't born out by history. Yes, civilians do panic and overreact once in a while. But not usually. I don't have numbers handy, but I'd be astonished if more than 5% of civilian CCW shooting were "bad shoots". I suspect it's under 1%

htom
07-20-2012, 05:28 PM
If you have 100 people carrying, how many would be doing so responsibly?

If they're carrying legally, close to 100. Really close. You can actually look up these figures.

MiddleAgesMan
07-20-2012, 05:34 PM
WTF, indeed. Makes the recent event in Toronto look sort of pale.

In a very strange twist of fate a young woman who survived the Toronto attack when she felt a powerful sense of dread (that caused her to leave the scene just before the shooting started) died in the Colorado tragedy. She was an aspiring sports reporter, working in Denver as an intern, 24 years of age. :(

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-20-2012, 05:34 PM
This kind of event does happen in other countries on rare occasion. We call it a tragedy, a horrific crime. In the United States this is the fourth gun massacre in 3 years. There are 200 million guns in circulation in the USA, many of them specifically for killing people. That makes this massacre a relatively commonplace event, given the gun crime and homicide statistics.

To most of us, this is still a horrific crime.

MiddleAgesMan
07-20-2012, 05:41 PM
"Dear Internet People: Maybe choose another day to make pro-gun statements.

Sincerely, Good Taste"

(via Andy Borowitz)

JimD
07-20-2012, 05:42 PM
Why isn't this guy on our forum? (from the LA Times http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-movie-theater-massacre-columbine-20120720,0,10054.story
DesertPaladin
at 2:42 PM July 20, 2012)The Liberal News Media hacks have wasted no time in in exploiting this tragedy to rehearse their anti-Second Amendment gun-control propaganda again. They really do operate under the maxim "Never let a tragedy go to waste", especially where guns are involved. They are DISGUSTING.
Fact still remains - Guns don't kill people, sickos like James Holmes do! And I'd bet my retirement pension that it will be discovered that he was a Left-Wing lunatic from San Diego who specifically targeted the sleepy little CONSERVATIVE town of Auro, Co., to vent his hatred for all conservatives, and what they stand for.
I would also point out that had it not been for onerous gun-control measures which were enacted the last time Leftist reacted in a knee-jerk fashion; many of those people would have been armed and able to defend themselves, and their loved ones! But thanks to the Liberals exploiting the Columbine tragedy, the average law-abiding Citizen was stripped of their right to keep & bear arms, and made as vulnerable as sheep to the slaughter. THAT is what miguided notions of gun-control begets!

htom
07-20-2012, 05:43 PM
This kind of event does happen in other countries on rare occasion. We call it a tragedy, a horrific crime. In the United States this is the fourth gun massacre in 3 years. There are 200 million guns in circulation in the USA, many of them specifically for killing people. That makes this massacre a relatively commonplace event, given the gun crime and homicide statistics.

To most of us, this is still a horrific crime.

Lots more than 200 million; we passed more firearms than people maybe ten or fifteen years ago. Sales are currently maybe 20,000,000 per year.

It's still a horrific crime.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-20-2012, 05:57 PM
I agree, but with that amount of firearms in the general population, particularly a large inventory of handguns and assault rifles, it is certainly a more predictable and regular horrific crime. I feel sorry for the victims, however, if Americans wanted to do something about these kinds of events, they would have stiffer gun control. They choose not to, and that is their democratic privilege.

B_B
07-20-2012, 06:03 PM
"Dear Internet People: Maybe choose another day to make pro-gun statements.

Sincerely, Good Taste"

(via Andy Borowitz)
The corollary is true too, "Dear Internet People; Maybe choose another day to make 'guns are evil' statements"

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 07:06 PM
That's kind of my point. Odds are that someone in this theater who was carrying his own gun would like not handle the situtation responsibly.

We can only conject as to how an armed person in the audience might have made this better or worse. My guess, and it's only a guess, is that more often than not, or at least as often as not, such an armed individual would make the situation worse.

Well then, according to your logic, the majority of members are irresponsible drivers and most should stay off the roads, including you.

Nicholas Scheuer
07-20-2012, 07:49 PM
If CC doesn't work in these situations, why have it? Out in the open I can run over an insane shooter with my truck. 45-cal ain't nothin' compared to a Dodge 250 Diesel.

McMike
07-20-2012, 08:05 PM
not moot... people were stampeding and flashlights don't furnish much light in a smoky environment... must have been chaos... if I had been at the movie AND had a gun AND not been shot down in the first volley... and, and, and... there is no way I would casually shoot over the heads of everyone without a positive id... it doesn't sound to me like the chaos was conducive to such a decision at allÖ not to mention that ANY patron there would have seen ME as the perp as soon as I pulled the gun

Second guessing isnít going to work here

Holy crap Phillip!!!!! Bravo!!!!! :)Y>

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 08:08 PM
Holy crap Phillip!!!!! Bravo!!!!! :)Y>

I have always thought this way... some people just listen too fast

McMike
07-20-2012, 08:14 PM
Wouldn't want to be a "hero" to protect ones family. Better to just lie there and take it while the wife and kids get plugged cuz only "yahoos" carry guns.

Well, that's a much better alternative to shooting an innocent. I have to say, given the presented circumstances, you in the theater with a handgun would have most likely resulted in you messing your pants. The gunman had the privilege of being able to shoot blindly into the crowd to accomplish his goal. You on the other hand would have had to be perfect in your every movement and action, not likely you would have been able to although I'm sure you got all excited just thinking about how you could have been the hero. I bet you cleaned you guns right after work tonight and will be sure to pack heat religiously within the foreseeable future so just so you don't miss your chance of becoming that guy who saved the day.

Wipe the spittle off your chin.

brad9798
07-20-2012, 08:19 PM
I'm waiting to hear the 'if all children were made to carry guns by law this would never have happened' argument.
terrible terrible but these incidents roll around with frightening regularity.

jonboy posts like some useless/worthless POS that thinks these things are funny ... what kind of twisted mind thinks like that ... CERTAINLY not a woodenboat owner/liker ... SHAME on you, jb ...

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 08:44 PM
Well, that's a much better alternative to shooting an innocent. I have to say, given the presented circumstances, you in the theater with a handgun would have most likely resulted in you messing your pants. The gunman had the privilege of being able to shoot blindly into the crowd to accomplish his goal. You on the other hand would have had to be perfect in your every movement and action, not likely you would have been able to although I'm sure you got all excited just thinking about how you could have been the hero. I bet you cleaned you guns right after work tonight and will be sure to pack heat religiously within the foreseeable future so just so you don't miss your chance of becoming that guy who saved the day.

Wipe the spittle off your chin.


So your family members are not in the "innocent" category?
I would like to see the response of your loved ones with regard to your remarks above McMike.
I doubt they would prefer your sacrificing them for your failings.

But hey, carry on oh yellow bellied one, push the children out of the way as you run for the door.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-20-2012, 08:49 PM
So your family members are not in the "innocent" category?
I would like to see the response of your loved ones with regard to your remarks above McMike.
I doubt they would prefer your sacrificing them for your failings.

But hey, carry on oh yellow bellied one, push the children out of the way as you run for the door.


Actually, I never even think about people running around with guns shooting people. It happens extremely rarely up here, because we have quite stringent gun control...but by all means, carry on.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 09:08 PM
Actually, I never even think about people running around with guns shooting people. It happens extremely rarely up here, because we have quite stringent gun control...but by all means, carry on.

Brazil has very stringent gun laws too. So does Mexico and some 20 other countries, all with higher murder rates than the US.
So whats your point?

2MeterTroll
07-20-2012, 09:39 PM
no Brad you got the wrong guy, I think these things are funny. Pity to the folks who care for the dead and wounded. but i see the humor in the situation in the predictability of outrage and impotence. that will justify killing this kid rather than passing logical laws. Have fun.

just listen to ol Rod calling folks he knows nothing about Cowards and Ol PA actually showing his brains. the same thing is pouring out of congress tonight like a flood of stupid.


jonboy posts like some useless/worthless POS that thinks these things are funny ... what kind of twisted mind thinks like that ... CERTAINLY not a woodenboat owner/liker ... SHAME on you, jb ...

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-20-2012, 09:43 PM
Brazil has very stringent gun laws too. So does Mexico and some 20 other countries, all with higher murder rates than the US.
So whats your point?

Absolutely no point. There are some countries that have higher homicide rates by gun that the USA.... Zimbabwe, Colombia,... so don't feel bad about it. If you want to compare yourself to Mexico, by all means go for it.;)

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 10:02 PM
Absolutely no point. There are some countries that have higher homicide rates by gun that the USA.... Zimbabwe, Colombia,... so don't feel bad about it. If you want to compare yourself to Mexico, by all means go for it.;)

You are the one who posts that because of Canadas strict guns laws you have a low murder rate. A lot of countries have even more strict laws and they're murder rates are much worse than here, so who is the one with "Absolutely no point." Obviously, gun laws aren't the deterrent.

Tom Montgomery
07-20-2012, 10:05 PM
You are the one who posts that because of Canadas strict guns laws you have a low murder rate. A lot of countries have even more strict laws and they're murder rates are much worse than here, so who is the one with "Absolutely no point." Obviously, gun laws aren't the deterrent.
So suggest an effective deterrent.

If you are not a part of the solution you are part of the problem.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-20-2012, 10:08 PM
You are the one who posts that because of Canadas strict guns laws you have a low murder rate. A lot of countries have even more strict laws and they're murder rates are much worse than here, so who is the one with "Absolutely no point." Obviously, gun laws aren't the deterrent.

As I stated, if you want to compare your country with Mexico on a socioeconomic scale, by all means do so. I don't consider Mexico to be a country that would be included in a statistical study of gun violence with Canada or the USA. It's a common ploy for the gun crowd to use what is effectively a third world or emergin nation as a comparator. Statistically ridiculous, but there it is.

In comparison to the United States, Canada has lower gun violence rates because it has more stringent gun control. That assertion stands up to scrutiny by using commonly accepted methods of statistical analysis. I don't intend to start listing data that is easily available to anyone that wants it.

My conclusion is the same: Americans don't want gun control, and accept the level of gun violence that results from that decision. I have no problem with that decision whatsoever.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 10:16 PM
As I stated, if you want to compare your country with Mexico on a socioeconomic scale, by all means do so. I don't consider Mexico to be a country that would be included in a statistical study of gun violence with Canada or the USA. It's a common ploy for the gun crowd to use what is effectively a third world or emergin nation as a comparator. Statistically ridiculous, but there it is.

In comparison to the United States, Canada has lower gun violence rates because it has more stringent gun control. That assertion stands up to scrutiny by using commonly accepted methods of statistical analysis. I don't intend to start listing data that is easily available to anyone that wants it.

My conclusion is the same: Americans don't want gun control, and accept the level of gun violence that results from that decision. I have no problem with that decision whatsoever.

So you would consider the Bahamas a third world, emerging country? How about Russia? I think Vladimir P would have a thing or two to say about being called "third world".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-20-2012, 10:19 PM
Do you think the Bahamas, given their geographic position and relative vulnerability is simliar to the USA?
Do you think the current economic and social environment in Russia is comparable to the USA?

Wow.

I looked at the list. Don't you consider places like the U.K, Japan, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Sweden etc to be America's peer group? I thought that was a given. They all have homicide rates that are less than half of yours of course.;)

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 10:23 PM
Told ya.......

yep

johnw
07-20-2012, 10:25 PM
If gun laws aren't the problem with the American murder rate, what is? I ask in all sincerity, because I don't believe gun laws are the whole story.

Old Dryfoot
07-20-2012, 10:32 PM
New York city Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly – who used to work with Aurora’s police Chief Dan Oates – said the suspect had painted his hair red and called himself the Joker, the villain from the Batman movies.


Source (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/in-colorado-searching-for-answers-amid-the-carnage/article4432211/?cmpid=rss1).

Phillip Allen
07-20-2012, 10:46 PM
Source (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/in-colorado-searching-for-answers-amid-the-carnage/article4432211/?cmpid=rss1).

so, he was role-playing?

Horace
07-20-2012, 10:51 PM
If gun laws aren't the problem with the American murder rate, what is? I ask in all sincerity, because I don't believe gun laws are the whole story.
John, perhaps this will give you something to think about:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Homicide-world.png/400px-Homicide-world.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homicide-world.png) http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.20wmf7/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homicide-world.png) <<<enlargement link
Intentional homicide rate per 100,000.
Lighter to darker blue (sorry, the colors won't post in the legend--go to the indicated link above):
0-1
1-2
2-5
5-10
10-20

(Gray: no data.)

Old Dryfoot
07-20-2012, 11:01 PM
so, he was roll-playing?

Roll playing, mentally instability, just plain evil, could be anything.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 11:06 PM
If gun laws aren't the problem with the American murder rate, what is? I ask in all sincerity, because I don't believe gun laws are the whole story.

The answer has eluded progressives for years.

.....




..........










It's called a lack of moral backbone.

Old Dryfoot
07-20-2012, 11:13 PM
The answer has eluded progressives for years.

.....




..........










It's called a lack of moral backbone.

Odd answer for an honest question.

RodSBT
07-20-2012, 11:30 PM
Odd answer for an honest question.


Like I said....

johnw
07-20-2012, 11:37 PM
The answer has eluded progressives for years.

.....




..........










It's called a lack of moral backbone.

Is that meant to be helpful?

purri
07-21-2012, 12:18 AM
Film critics and actors are like that.

Roll playing, mentally instability, just plain evil, could be anything.

Nicholas Scheuer
07-21-2012, 07:29 AM
Tell us how constructive CC was in Aurora, Art. Even outside, Holmes was just standing by his car when the Police got there. Hard to believe not a SINGLE decent sort of person in that part of Colorado was armed.

But mention taking away CC in Colorado, hundreds will demonstrate in the streets. For what, exactly?

Tell us Art.

Kevin T
07-21-2012, 08:07 AM
Tell us how constructive CC was in Aurora, Art. Even outside, Holmes was just standing by his car when the Police got there. Hard to believe not a SINGLE decent sort of person in that part of Colorado was armed.

But mention taking away CC in Colorado, hundreds will demonstrate in the streets. For what, exactly?

Tell us Art.

+1 And it is why the CC is utter hogwash. Imagine this scenario:

There are three CC permit holders in the theater, gunmen starts firing, meanwhile on the other side of the theater a CC gets up and starts returning fire in the general direction amid all of the confusion.

Another CC gets up near the first CC and thinking the first CC is part of the original attack starts firing on the "hero" CC.

Third CC gets up and starts firing at 2nd CC.

The grand finale to this carnage is that the cops break through the fleeing crowd and put a "red dot and a shot" on the area directly behind the muzzle flashes of the four active guns.

Now someone will be along shortly to indicate how wrong that possibility is.

John Smith
07-21-2012, 08:13 AM
This kind of event does happen in other countries on rare occasion. We call it a tragedy, a horrific crime. In the United States this is the fourth gun massacre in 3 years. There are 200 million guns in circulation in the USA, many of them specifically for killing people. That makes this massacre a relatively commonplace event, given the gun crime and homicide statistics.

To most of us, this is still a horrific crime.

This is a problem we are stuck with. Guns are not like cars where you can grandfather something in because they all end up in the junk yard or a museum in a few brief decades. There are so many guns out there already, that if no more guns were ever sold, anyone who wants one could get one.

I'll also agree with those who say it takes a person to pull the trigger and I'd not jump to the conclusion that all of the higher rate in this country is because of gun availability. What prompts this stuff inthe first place seems worthy of discussion.

What is our rate of suicide compared to other countries? Fodder for some research. Do we live under a different level of stress than people in other countries? If so, what can we do about it.

What other types of violence are also out of sync with other nations? domestic abuse? I'm not saying, just asking.

We have, what I would just suggest as an example, a unique employer based healthcare system. This has made it more difficult to decide to quite a job you don't like, and that's a stresser unique to this country. PERHAPS that is a factor.

Paul Pless
07-21-2012, 08:14 AM
I think you guys are making too much of the CCW scenarios. There are clearly times when CCW holders might be effective and other times when they wouldn't be.

John Smith
07-21-2012, 08:23 AM
I think you guys are making too much of the CCW scenarios. There are clearly times when CCW holders might be effective and other times when they wouldn't be.

I'll be told I'm wrong, but I expect anyone who stand up and tries to acquire a target is making himself one.

jonboy
07-21-2012, 08:43 AM
jonboy posts like some useless/worthless POS that thinks these things are funny ... what kind of twisted mind thinks like that ... CERTAINLY not a woodenboat owner/liker ... SHAME on you, jb ...

Wow so the opinion of a worthless pieceof**** who rolled about laughing at all the dead people with my twisted mind obviously focussed on the next time I come across a bunch of wooden boat lovers I'm gonna whip out the old equaliser and have a few more laughs really touched a nerve. good. might make you use a brain cell or two.

Are you completely retarded Brad or just have no sense of irony or the use of sarcasm as literary device.?

The only thing that sickens and upsets me more than the depravity of this horrible incident is the opinions (as I expected them to come rolling in) of the defenders and justifiers who rail against the considered and logical opinions of loosely ' the anti-gun lobby'..

I own guns, I own wooden boats and have owned built worked on restored and sailed and motored probably more than you have had the proverbial hot dinners. St Louis Missouri is about as far from the ocean you can get by my atlas.

See you tomorrow at the Tall Ships Race... ? probably not , you'll be having a wank over Lingerie and Assault Weopons Weekly with a special How to Kill as many People as Possible Supplement.
Get a Life.

Kevin T
07-21-2012, 08:46 AM
Sounds like pure hogwash. Has anything even remotely like this EVER happened? No.

Exactly, it's why I think that all of those who claim that if more people carried, we'd all be safer when a shooting like the one in Colorado takes place are kidding themselves.

CC's are at as much risk as everyone else and perhaps more so for being mistaken for part of the original action and having themselves taken out in the process by law enforcement or other CC's.

George Jung
07-21-2012, 09:11 AM
How did this guy gain access through an emergency exit? Those are one way, open only from the inside - correct?

Iceboy
07-21-2012, 09:20 AM
If he was just standing by his car what justification would a cc permit holder have for shooting him? Even the police have no justification to shoot him then and that they didn't is very telling. Contrary to you perception of cc permit holders they are not all cowboys waiting to blast someone. Few of them feel the need or are rash enough to act in marginal circumstances.
Tell us how constructive CC was in Aurora, Art. Even outside, Holmes was just standing by his car when the Police got there. Hard to believe not a SINGLE decent sort of person in that part of Colorado was armed.

But mention taking away CC in Colorado, hundreds will demonstrate in the streets. For what, exactly?

Tell us Art.

Paul Pless
07-21-2012, 09:21 AM
He kicked it in according to police.

Iceboy
07-21-2012, 09:25 AM
Absolutely true. But it is a target that is taking a round instead of another who may be a child or mother or grandparent.
I'll be told I'm wrong, but I expect anyone who stand up and tries to acquire a target is making himself one.

Iceboy
07-21-2012, 09:27 AM
On 20/20 last night they said he bought a ticket and then went out the door leaving it propped while he suited up and armed himself from his car.
He kicked it in according to police.

jonboy
07-21-2012, 09:53 AM
And while my blood's heated up about this whole issue, I don't advocate 'the guns should be banned' line.... just 'control' over their availability. This Denver guy had legally bought 6000 rounds...several 'legally ' owned guns, I'd bet not one of them what I'd call a legitimate weopon.... That is, if the gun isn't designed made sold and used to put food on the table it it should only be in the hands of the military.

personal point .. I have an almost silent .22 air rifle. I have a .22 rifle. I have a .410 shot gun . I have a standard side by side 12 bore, I have a delightful perfectly crafted Belgian .22 under with a 16 bore over, over a hundred years old. . One or other of these has put food on the table at least weekly, mostly hares and rabbits, pigeons and game birds, despatched home reared pigs, put down the odd aged dog, kept badgers 'under control' and in nearly forty years I have maybe used 1000 cartridges and I still have over half a case of 1000 .22 LR That are so old bought maybe in 1980, I wonder about using them..... I can go out for a couple of hours or all day, and fire three or four times and there's supper... It would be pretty difficult to do the Norway atrocity, Aurora,, or any others that happen with scary frequency. Doesn't anyone say to the bloke who walks into the gun store 'yes sir of course, an AK 47 a Glock 9mm, 5000 rounds .... off for a few rabbits this weekend ?'

'Guns don't kill people, people do' Wake up every one... If people can't get the guns and therefore there are so few generally available, as in the UK, Denver, Columbine et al, almost doesn't happen. There are so few guns the black market for illegal guns is so small as to be insignificant, though this does increase the demand for conversions and home-mades.... and the recent incident though not unheard of, is statistically rare in most of the countries with strict control. But it's impossible now in the USA to counteract this with the above posts reckoning on how mainy firearms simply exist and 20 million sold each year !

You have made the bed now reap the sowings, to mix a metaphor or two.

Paul Pless
07-21-2012, 10:03 AM
personal point .. I have an almost silent .22 air rifle. I have a .22 rifle. I have a .410 shot gun . I have a standard side by side 12 bore, I have a delightful perfectly crafted Belgian .22 under with a 16 bore over, over a hundred years old. . One or other of these has put food on the table at least weekly, mostly hares and rabbits, pigeons and game birds, despatched home reared pigs, put down the odd aged dog, kept badgers 'under control' and in nearly forty years I have maybe used 1000 cartridges and I still have over half a case of 1000 .22 LR That are so old bought maybe in 1980, I wonder about using them.....


So you don't find target shooting an appropriate pass-time? What about competitive shooters? I know competitive shotgunners that run through 250 or more shot shells a day, 3 to 4 days a week.

Nicholas Scheuer
07-21-2012, 10:07 AM
They MIGHT have followed him out of the theatre, or witnessed the action, then recognized him by his car from his bullet-proof costume. Duhhhh. Judging by the continual CC uproar, Colorado seems rife with CC practitioners? CC Boosters in Illinois always point out that we are one of only THREE States without CC, as if we need to join the majority.

I agree with jonboy's points, above. That old 22/16Ga sounds cool.

Phillip Allen
07-21-2012, 10:08 AM
And while my blood's heated up about this whole issue, I don't advocate 'the guns should be banned' line.... just 'control' over their availability. This Denver guy had legally bought 6000 rounds...several 'legally ' owned guns, I'd bet not one of them what I'd call a legitimate weopon.... That is, if the gun isn't designed made sold and used to put food on the table it it should only be in the hands of the military.

personal point .. I have an almost silent .22 air rifle. I have a .22 rifle. I have a .410 shot gun . I have a standard side by side 12 bore, I have a delightful perfectly crafted Belgian .22 under with a 16 bore over, over a hundred years old. . One or other of these has put food on the table at least weekly, mostly hares and rabbits, pigeons and game birds, despatched home reared pigs, put down the odd aged dog, kept badgers 'under control' and in nearly forty years I have maybe used 1000 cartridges and I still have over half a case of 1000 .22 LR That are so old bought maybe in 1980, I wonder about using them..... I can go out for a couple of hours or all day, and fire three or four times and there's supper... It would be pretty difficult to do the Norway atrocity, Aurora,, or any others that happen with scary frequency. Doesn't anyone say to the bloke who walks into the gun store 'yes sir of course, an AK 47 a Glock 9mm, 5000 rounds .... off for a few rabbits this weekend ?'

'Guns don't kill people, people do' Wake up every one... If people can't get the guns and therefore there are so few generally available, as in the UK, Denver, Columbine et al, almost doesn't happen. There are so few guns the black market for illegal guns is so small as to be insignificant, though this does increase the demand for conversions and home-mades.... and the recent incident though not unheard of, is statistically rare in most of the countries with strict control. But it's impossible now in the USA to counteract this with the above posts reckoning on how mainy firearms simply exist and 20 million sold each year !

You have made the bed now reap the sowings, to mix a metaphor or two.

the best and most accurate .22 ammo I have is what is left of a 500 round carton bought in the 1960's... it keeps

Iceboy
07-21-2012, 10:27 AM
Doesn't matter what they might have done. If he is just standing by his car they would have no justification to shoot him. Cripes even the police didn't shoot him so you go on about someone with a cc permit not shooting him and attempt to use that as a reason to disallow cc. I might also point out that Illinois is the only state without cc.
They MIGHT have followed him out of the theatre, or witnessed the action, then recognized him by his car from his bullet-proof costume. Duhhhh. Judging by the continual CC uproar, Colorado seems rife with CC practitioners? CC Boosters in Illinois always point out that we are one of only THREE States without CC, as if we need to join the majority.

I agree with jonboy's points, above. That old 22/16Ga sounds cool.

jonboy
07-21-2012, 10:37 AM
So you don't find target shooting an appropriate pass-time? What about competitive shooters? I know competitive shotgunners that run through 250 or more shot shells a day, 3 to 4 days a week.

No I don't , but I don't have an issue with that... Once I was a member of a shooting range /gun club just to learn about the how's and wherefore's., and I was appalled at the average members' generally right- wing -verging -on -Nazi mentality, and as I grew up in South London, (the home of the less liberal members of society whose general idea of a good saturday was agro on the terraces followed by ten pints, and a fight outside the pub,) I was still shocked. Learn't about the tool, left the workshop, you could say.
I am too involved with my work and the boats and other more creative passtimes, least of all messin' about on the river, to be bothered about the guns more than, as I hope I got across, that I see them as just another, essential, tool in my box, like a set of Snap-on spanners or a good kitchen knife.
Eclecticism and catholic (with a small c) universality yes, obsession, obsession, no thanks

Old Dryfoot
07-21-2012, 10:54 AM
How did this guy gain access through an emergency exit? Those are one way, open only from the inside - correct?

You are correct, they are one way. Holmes purchased a ticket and entered theater 9 like any other movie goer. He left through the exit to his car were he gear up and returned through a propped open door.

Now a question. Was the emergency exit alarmed? Should someone in the theater been aware that an emergency exit had been opened?

B_B
07-21-2012, 11:07 AM
He kicked it in according to police.
Emergency exists are supposed to open outward, AFAIK.

Paul Pless
07-21-2012, 11:22 AM
Emergency exists are supposed to open outward, AFAIK.

Right you are. I guess I was wrong, I could have sworn that I heard the police spokesman say that it was kicked in. . .

B_B
07-21-2012, 11:32 AM
Right you are. I guess I was wrong, I could have sworn that I heard the police spokesman say that it was kicked in. . .
No worries, I've had 'encounters' with steel emergency exists. I can't imagine them kicking in too easy. :D

B_B
07-21-2012, 11:43 AM
Just a slight correction to your little rant. The Nazis were LEFTYs gone wlld.
Just a slight correction on your rant, no they weren't.
It is a variety of fascism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism) that incorporates biological racism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism) and antisemitism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#cite_note-4)

Nicholas Scheuer
07-21-2012, 11:46 AM
Nazis are "lefties", Geo Duck? You certainly aremore than a little confused. From whence did the exprsssion "Uber Right" come from? "Uber" is meant as an association with Nazi Germany, and Hitler.

John Smith
07-21-2012, 11:47 AM
I'd say that's a ridiculous stretch. Is there any evidence that this guy who opened fire in the theater was Going Postal because he didn't like his job or had problems with his health insurance?

You can't have it both ways. Either guns kill people or people kill people. If we look at the people kill people side, then we need to ponder why people kill people. It was not my intention to make a case as to why we have such incidents as to make a case for figuring out why we have so many incidents.

You'll note I put PERHAPS in capital letters. If we have more such incidents than they have in other countries, there must be a reason. If it is not just the fact that so many guns are so readily available, what is it?

You sound like you don't want to know. I do want to know. What triggers people to kill themselves and/or others they don't even know?

Is there a common thread? It's certainly worth looking into, is it not?

Something drove this man to do what he did. I'd like to know what it was.

John Smith
07-21-2012, 11:50 AM
And while my blood's heated up about this whole issue, I don't advocate 'the guns should be banned' line.... just 'control' over their availability. This Denver guy had legally bought 6000 rounds...several 'legally ' owned guns, I'd bet not one of them what I'd call a legitimate weopon.... That is, if the gun isn't designed made sold and used to put food on the table it it should only be in the hands of the military.

personal point .. I have an almost silent .22 air rifle. I have a .22 rifle. I have a .410 shot gun . I have a standard side by side 12 bore, I have a delightful perfectly crafted Belgian .22 under with a 16 bore over, over a hundred years old. . One or other of these has put food on the table at least weekly, mostly hares and rabbits, pigeons and game birds, despatched home reared pigs, put down the odd aged dog, kept badgers 'under control' and in nearly forty years I have maybe used 1000 cartridges and I still have over half a case of 1000 .22 LR That are so old bought maybe in 1980, I wonder about using them..... I can go out for a couple of hours or all day, and fire three or four times and there's supper... It would be pretty difficult to do the Norway atrocity, Aurora,, or any others that happen with scary frequency. Doesn't anyone say to the bloke who walks into the gun store 'yes sir of course, an AK 47 a Glock 9mm, 5000 rounds .... off for a few rabbits this weekend ?'

'Guns don't kill people, people do' Wake up every one... If people can't get the guns and therefore there are so few generally available, as in the UK, Denver, Columbine et al, almost doesn't happen. There are so few guns the black market for illegal guns is so small as to be insignificant, though this does increase the demand for conversions and home-mades.... and the recent incident though not unheard of, is statistically rare in most of the countries with strict control. But it's impossible now in the USA to counteract this with the above posts reckoning on how mainy firearms simply exist and 20 million sold each year !

You have made the bed now reap the sowings, to mix a metaphor or two.
Please write a gun control law that will actually work. I'd love to see it. I'm not convinced it can be done. It would be about as affective as the war on drugs has been.

John Smith
07-21-2012, 11:52 AM
Right you are. I guess I was wrong, I could have sworn that I heard the police spokesman say that it was kicked in. . .

I expect this is the time frame where speculation looks like news.

bobbys
07-21-2012, 11:57 AM
Odd there was not a peep from the libs here when Fast and Furious was going on.

Now it fits the agenda and they all have something to say.

jonboy
07-21-2012, 12:55 PM
Please write a gun control law that will actually work. I'd love to see it. I'm not convinced it can be done. It would be about as affective as the war on drugs has been.

No, I can't. we have laws against everything unsociable, but we still have rape , theft, robbery, child abuse, arson, etc etc, but it hasn't stopped those crimes from happening, but it probably has greatly reduced their occurence. If you don't agree with or believe that, the extrapolation is no laws at all. If we had a law that simply, like in England said, NO HANDGUNS. no excuses, imposed overnight, or no sale of weapons that are patently obviously not intended for shooting anything other than someone else. No sale of ammunition that wasn't for a hunting firearm. Stop and search by police of cars that may have a pistol in the glove box.....or maybe not, but if you knew it might happen you wouldn't go out and then a simple road traffic 'road rage' incident turns into a homicide. Impose that law overnight. Close down gunshops. Make it illegal to own sell or buy anything other than two shot hunting weapons. I don't agree with this but it is an answer that might work, it works in other countries as I have said before.
The practical and logistical properties of applying and enforcing a law should not be the reason for not having that law in the first place.
This, unfortunately to some of you, is indisputable truth, painful, and you don't have to agree let alone comply to this hypothetical situation.
But don't try and justify the actions that happen from the absence of a law like this.
I wonder if any of the family of any of the twelve mortalities and forty or so injured, sat back , on hearing the news and said, yeh , that's cool, no problem it's that citizen's right to carry arms and its more important than my dead child/ husband/ sister.
as I have said before ..wake up and look around or stop complaining

John Smith
07-21-2012, 01:45 PM
No, I can't. we have laws against everything unsociable, but we still have rape , theft, robbery, child abuse, arson, etc etc, but it hasn't stopped those crimes from happening, but it probably has greatly reduced their occurence. If you don't agree with or believe that, the extrapolation is no laws at all. If we had a law that simply, like in England said, NO HANDGUNS. no excuses, imposed overnight, or no sale of weapons that are patently obviously not intended for shooting anything other than someone else. No sale of ammunition that wasn't for a hunting firearm. Stop and search by police of cars that may have a pistol in the glove box.....or maybe not, but if you knew it might happen you wouldn't go out and then a simple road traffic 'road rage' incident turns into a homicide. Impose that law overnight. Close down gunshops. Make it illegal to own sell or buy anything other than two shot hunting weapons. I don't agree with this but it is an answer that might work, it works in other countries as I have said before.
The practical and logistical properties of applying and enforcing a law should not be the reason for not having that law in the first place.
This, unfortunately to some of you, is indisputable truth, painful, and you don't have to agree let alone comply to this hypothetical situation.
But don't try and justify the actions that happen from the absence of a law like this.
I wonder if any of the family of any of the twelve mortalities and forty or so injured, sat back , on hearing the news and said, yeh , that's cool, no problem it's that citizen's right to carry arms and its more important than my dead child/ husband/ sister.
as I have said before ..wake up and look around or stop complaining

I think a reasonalbe, workable gun control law could have been written at some point in the past. If we make new laws pertaining to cars, we can begin them with new cars, as cars don't last long: in a couple of decades today's new car has been scrapped or in a museum. The gun functions forever.

I have no idea if we have fewer murders because murder is illegal. Most of these laws are less aimed at preventing the crime as they are in assessing the punishment for that crime. We cannot control drugs by making them illegal, and we could not control alcohol by making it illegal. Sadly too many fail to see that.

You could (if you could) ban all sales of all new guns completely across the country, and it would only keep the law abiding folk from having guns. Such a law would immediately add value to all those guns already out there. The old black market deal where the crime folks make all the money.

It's time, I think, for rational thinking. I have been asking for years for someone to write a workable gun control law. No one has. I can't figure out how to write one.

htom
07-21-2012, 01:51 PM
A thousand rounds of .22 is only two bricks; I used to go through that in a week. Reputable manufacture in the 1980s, stored dry, should be fine. Go have fun plinking.

MiddleAgesMan
07-21-2012, 07:23 PM
There sure is some stupid ****e on this thread along with some brilliant stuff (thank you, JonBoy).

There is absolutely no legal, moral or ethical reason to allow the sale of devices that hold more than a dozen or so rounds. I'd like to see it limited to 3 or 4 but I figure you have to start somewhere, with legislation that is imperfect (sort of like the AHC act).

Phillip Allen
07-21-2012, 07:36 PM
There sure is some stupid ****e on this thread along with some brilliant stuff (thank you, JonBoy).

There is absolutely no legal, moral or ethical reason to allow the sale of devices that hold more than a dozen or so rounds. I'd like to see it limited to 3 or 4 but I figure you have to start somewhere, with legislation that is imperfect (sort of like the AHC act).

for those who already know... magazine limitation is silly for many reasons... OTH running around with ten pounds of ammo in the handle of a pistol is just as silly

I have a .308 Winchester (caliber) rifle... it is an FN-FAL. The caliber is enough to hunt most of what is on this contenant. It came with a 20 round magazine... I went and bought a 5 round mag for hunting

I have another rifle 7.62X39 which is 'adequate' for white tailed deer that my granddaughter can shoot. it came with a 5 round magazine... I bought a 30 round magazine for it.

Both rifles go to the range with the 5 round mags...sometimes some kid will ask me why I don't have larger magazines and I take the opportunity to tell them that I only shoot one bullet at a time and 5 is all I need... no lecture on their choices... I do more to recruit good behavior than all the screaming done by the fools in the gun-hate crowd ever did.

Gary E
07-21-2012, 07:55 PM
At some point Americans need to realize that the all knowing gubbermint can't protect them and that we are left with the decision of whether to keep bending over and taking it or grow a spine and fight back.

This punk could have been tackled and beat senseless (let alone an armed citizen taking him out) long before he shot 70+ people.

One well placed head shot would have fixed Holmes need for a lead injection.

DONT mess with a senior citizen in FLA

Stop or the Senior Citizen Will Shoot! Moment
71-Year-Old Gunman Shot Two Robbers as They Tried to Hold Up Florida Internet Cafe

For the intire story....Cameras recorded everything

http://lewrockwell.com/spl4/heroic-armed-citizen.html

RodSBT
07-21-2012, 09:49 PM
DONT mess with a senior citizen in FLA

Stop or the Senior Citizen Will Shoot! Moment
71-Year-Old Gunman Shot Two Robbers as They Tried to Hold Up Florida Internet Cafe

For the intire story....Cameras recorded everything

http://lewrockwell.com/spl4/heroic-armed-citizen.html

Crap Gary, how can this be?
Everyone here on WBF just KNOWS you're supposed to curl up in the fetal position and suck your thumb so you don't make the bad men mad.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
07-21-2012, 10:09 PM
Canada has tried out this really weird over the top strategy.... guns are really hard to own here, and as a result we don't have much gun violence. Yeah, I know... really rad isn't it. :D

Garret
07-21-2012, 10:15 PM
Canada has tried out this really weird over the top strategy.... guns are really hard to own here, and as a result we don't have much gun violence. Yeah, I know... really rad isn't it. :D

Nah - it's all 'cause you're so damned polite.....

John Smith
07-22-2012, 08:29 AM
Canada has tried out this really weird over the top strategy.... guns are really hard to own here, and as a result we don't have much gun violence. Yeah, I know... really rad isn't it. :D

The problem is that there are already so many guns in the hands of the public that there's no way to get them out of their hands. Only the law abiding people would comply.

It's a problem to which I see no solution. There may be steps that can be taken to prevent some of the gun violence but not this kind.

It seems it's a lot easier to prevent people from voting than owning a gun.

Phillip Allen
07-22-2012, 08:44 AM
Canada has tried out this really weird over the top strategy.... guns are really hard to own here, and as a result we don't have much gun violence. Yeah, I know... really rad isn't it. :D

that is a contradiction to what you have claimed on other threads

Dan McCosh
07-22-2012, 10:02 AM
Canada has tried out this really weird over the top strategy.... guns are really hard to own here, and as a result we don't have much gun violence. Yeah, I know... really rad isn't it. :D I don't recall any gun violence in Canada back when guns were sold casually to teens in hardware stores, no questions asked. Guns are mainly a symbol of something much more sinister--a casual acceptance of anti-social violence.

Bobby of Tulsa
07-22-2012, 10:10 AM
I think the problem is the violent nature of things we see. How many video games and movies teach our young to kill. Even the batman movie, how many get killed in it? Why were you drawn to this type of thing?

Phillip Allen
07-22-2012, 10:12 AM
I think the problem is the violent nature of things we see. How many video games and movies teach our young to kill. Even the batman movie, how many get killed in it? Why were you drawn to this type of thing?

that was my point about not planning to watch it... I will probably watch it now to see if I can add to my knowledge of what disturbed this young man... more a chore than entertainment (I've done it before)

McMike
07-22-2012, 10:14 AM
I think the problem is the violent nature of things we see. How many video games and movies teach our young to kill. Even the batman movie, how many get killed in it? Why were you drawn to this type of thing?

Many less violent countries consume the same media as we here in the USA do. I think it's the entitlement and personal exceptionalism that is fostered in our society that brings out this kind of behavior . . . after that, guns don't help.

Michael D. Storey
07-22-2012, 10:21 AM
Guns don't kill people. People kill people. With the help of the NRA...
When will this country learn?
God bless the victims.
If the NRA ( and other like-minded weapons rights groups) were to come out for regulation that would make guns less easy to buy than what is a hedge trimmer in many places, and to keep guins out of the hands of felons, minors, and mentally unstable individuals, and to support safety training for all carriers, and to get over the nonsense that having a home-grade side arm could protect you from a situation like the rise of nazi-ism in Germany, their strength as a political force would be enhanced considerably.

Bobby of Tulsa
07-22-2012, 10:24 AM
If you grew up in the 50s you never played a game where beating up women or slaughtering people to steal a car was what made you a man. Now you can virtualy kill all the people you want and just hit replay and they are all back agin, not so in real life.

htom
07-22-2012, 11:05 AM
If the NRA ( and other like-minded weapons rights groups) were to come out for regulation that would make guns less easy to buy than what is a hedge trimmer in many places, and to keep guins out of the hands of felons, minors, and mentally unstable individuals, and to support safety training for all carriers, and to get over the nonsense that having a home-grade side arm could protect you from a situation like the rise of nazi-ism in Germany, their strength as a political force would be enhanced considerably.

Showing how little you know of the history of the NRA's legislative and education programs, I see. One of the primary reasons the NRA is, in the eyes of some, an east-coast clan that wants only to protect cherry stocked shotguns.

RodSBT
07-22-2012, 11:14 AM
If the NRA ( and other like-minded weapons rights groups) were to come out for regulation that would make guns less easy to buy than what is a hedge trimmer in many places, and to keep guins out of the hands of felons, minors, and mentally unstable individuals, and to support safety training for all carriers, and to get over the nonsense that having a home-grade side arm could protect you from a situation like the rise of nazi-ism in Germany, their strength as a political force would be enhanced considerably.


They did, it's called the National Firearms Act of 1934. :http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=3247

And they helped with the gun control act of 1968, and the NICS program and the vets disarmament act and.....And now with over 20,000 gun laws spread around the country, including Aurora, Co., we still have about the same number of homicides (actually lower in recent years) per year now as we have had for the last few decades.

I know its a hard concept to accept but murder has been illegal for thousands of years, yet we still have murder, regardless of weapon used.

RodSBT
07-22-2012, 11:25 AM
Canada has tried out this really weird over the top strategy.... guns are really hard to own here, and as a result we don't have much gun violence. Yeah, I know... really rad isn't it. :D

So tell us Pete, how is it the windy city of Chicago has even more restrictive gun laws( Like, you can't own ANY) and yet they have a much higher murder rate (yes, guuuunnnn murder rate) than Canada and the rest of the US.
Really rad I know, but how can this be?

Durnik
07-22-2012, 01:29 PM
Crap Gary, how can this be?
Everyone here on WBF just KNOWS you're supposed to curl up in the fetal position and suck your thumb so you don't make the bad men mad.

Do you really believe 'curling up in the fetal position' is the only alternative to shooting somebody?

Amazing.



I don't recall any gun violence in Canada back when guns were sold casually to teens in hardware stores, no questions asked. Guns are mainly a symbol of something much more sinister--a casual acceptance of anti-social violence.

perhaps even part of an encouragement of said social violence, but basically, yes.



So tell us Pete, how is it the windy city of Chicago has even more restrictive gun laws( Like, you can't own ANY) and yet they have a much higher murder rate (yes, guuuunnnn murder rate) than Canada and the rest of the US.
Really rad I know, but how can this be?

Oh, maybe cause you can drive outside the city limits a ways, buy your gun, drive back in and SHOOT SOMEBODY.. er, shoot somebody.. there being no customs inspections at the 'city limits', eh?

Gawd, Rod, are you _really_ this clueless? or just AFRWT? Ah, but I repeat myself..

enjoy
bobby

2MeterTroll
07-22-2012, 01:42 PM
Durnak Rods proven himself to be a psychphant he needs no reasoning for his point of view. some folks have actually been thoughtful when discussing this issue. Others, not so much.

I personally dont think its guns that are the problem; its a social problem that has festered since the 70's. I think most of this extends from fear and powerlessness pretty much our lot in life if we dont have great amounts of money. Folks eventually snap under stress and lash out at the local population because they cannot reach the real problem. its the same with the rabid NRA folks; fear makes a great way to justify anything.

RodSBT
07-22-2012, 02:11 PM
.....Oh, maybe cause you can drive outside the city limits a ways, buy your gun, drive back in and SHOOT SOMEBODY.. er, shoot somebody.. there being no customs inspections at the 'city limits', eh?

Gawd, Rod, are you _really_ this clueless? or just AFRWT? Ah, but I repeat myself..

enjoy
bobby

Ok, so then why are the murder rates in those areas "outside" the city limits (where guns are so easily gotten) much lower than in "the city limits". I mean, gosh Durnik, not wanting to question your logic but hey, whats good for the goose and all that...

bobbys
07-22-2012, 02:15 PM
I think the problem is the violent nature of things we see. How many video games and movies teach our young to kill. Even the batman movie, how many get killed in it? Why were you drawn to this type of thing?.

Good point Bobby, I only watched a bit of the Batman movies but like so many other movies its filled with death.

The "artist" actors are rewarded in Hollywood the more violent their films are.

Michael D. Storey
07-22-2012, 03:08 PM
Showing how little you know of the history of the NRA's legislative and education programs, I see. One of the primary reasons the NRA is, in the eyes of some, an east-coast clan that wants only to protect cherry stocked shotguns.

I feel that what you have to say and what Rod has to say are important. I don't know anything about cherry-stocked east coasties, but I can tell you that I have seen more than enough gore for my lifetime. I do not carry a firearm even though I do have a license to do so. I do not recommend that my adult children, all possessors of firearms, carry them either. I also do not have the answer to this social crisis. I am aware that there was a push to provide small 'girl-size' weapons to women a decade ago or so, with much political support, and not enough thinking about where they would be carried, or how easy it is to get a purse (and the gun therein) away from a woman. I cite this as another example of poor planning and profit-driven decisions backfiring, as it were.
I happen to know people who are active in gun-owner rights causes. Every one of them, in my opinion, deport themselves and their weaponry in a sensible manner. Small group, true, not indicative of the large population, maybe.
I feel that what is needed is a national dialogue on the problem that firearms create in our nation. Let me end by saying that I am aware, thoroughly, that the problem is, of course firearm owners (or in the case of theft, possessors)

johnw
07-22-2012, 03:11 PM
Ok, so then why are the murder rates in those areas "outside" the city limits (where guns are so easily gotten) much lower than in "the city limits". I mean, gosh Durnik, not wanting to question your logic but hey, whats good for the goose and all that...

If you live out in the country, you are more likely to have a use for a gun that doesn't involve conflict among people. Not that I'm against people owning guns in the city. Most of them own a gun because they like guns.

Phillip Allen
07-22-2012, 03:16 PM
I feel that what you have to say and what Rod has to say are important. I don't know anything about cherry-stocked east coasties, but I can tell you that I have seen more than enough gore for my lifetime. I do not carry a firearm even though I do have a license to do so. I do not recommend that my adult children, all possessors of firearms, carry them either. I also do not have the answer to this social crisis. I am aware that there was a push to provide small 'girl-size' weapons to women a decade ago or so, with much political support, and not enough thinking about where they would be carried, or how easy it is to get a purse (and the gun therein) away from a woman. I cite this as another example of poor planning and profit-driven decisions backfiring, as it were.
I happen to know people who are active in gun-owner rights causes. Every one of them, in my opinion, deport themselves and their weaponry in a sensible manner. Small group, true, not indicative of the large population, maybe.
I feel that what is needed is a national dialogue on the problem that firearms create in our nation. Let me end by saying that I am aware, thoroughly, that the problem is, of course firearm owners (or in the case of theft, possessors)

I'm not sure what you mean by firearms owners being the problem... I own firearms

Michael D. Storey
07-22-2012, 03:19 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by firearms owners being the problem... I own firearms

I mean a firearm needs to be fired to cause a dust-up. It is a human-produced crisis. I feel that it is clear that it was not my intention of suggesting that all owners are problematic. Note that I mentioned that everyone that i know is not a prob.

John Smith
07-22-2012, 03:26 PM
Ok, so then why are the murder rates in those areas "outside" the city limits (where guns are so easily gotten) much lower than in "the city limits". I mean, gosh Durnik, not wanting to question your logic but hey, whats good for the goose and all that...

Guns are definitely a part of the problem, but it's a part of the problem to which there's no practical solution. The other part of the problem is some people aren't playing with a full deck, and that also has no practical solution.

This particular guy, based on what I heard this morning, wore considerable body armor and someone shooting at him likely wouldn't have helped at all; maybe made things worse.

This is the country with those freedoms we are so proud of. Those freedoms come with a risk. That's just the way it is. You can't have the freedoms without the risk and, when it comes to guns, you can't get rid of the risk by passing gun control laws.

Freedom is not free: this is one of the prices we pay. For all the news coverage this gets, is it really any more tragic than losing a loved one to a drunk driver?

John Smith
07-22-2012, 03:28 PM
.

Good point Bobby, I only watched a bit of the Batman movies but like so many other movies its filled with death.

The "artist" actors are rewarded in Hollywood the more violent their films are.

I think it's nonsense. For every one person who watches these movies/plays the games and then committs an act of violence, there are many millions who don't do the violence part. This is like blaming John Wayne for WWII.

John Smith
07-22-2012, 03:36 PM
I mean a firearm needs to be fired to cause a dust-up. It is a human-produced crisis. I feel that it is clear that it was not my intention of suggesting that all owners are problematic. Note that I mentioned that everyone that i know is not a prob.

There are many things in our life that can be used to kill. guns are designed to. But someone needs to pull the trigger.

There are wild-ass analogies one could make, like 9/11 where planes were used. No one wanted to ban planes, but we did end up going through a lot more scrutiny (wasted, IMO) to get aboard one. Due to a recent spike in new drivers having auto accidents, my state is passing a law that the parents of new drivers have to undergo refresher courses; another dumb response, IMO.

Only guns seem to bring about great opposition to any effort to insure the people who wish to carry them know what they're doing and have to pass somekind of background check.

There is no way, starting at where we are, as opposed to where we might like to be, that we can get control of guns in any meaningful way. A person who is of a mind to kill other people or to rob a shop is not going to have any scruples about having an illegal weapon.

As I said a post or two ago: Freedom has a cost. This is one of them.

bobbys
07-22-2012, 03:49 PM
I think it's nonsense. For every one person who watches these movies/plays the games and then committs an act of violence, there are many millions who don't do the violence part. This is like blaming John Wayne for WWII...

Well a guy who thinks he's "The Joker" at a Batman screening kills and wounds a whole bunch of people, indicates at least in this instance he was influenced in a way by the movies.

I accept your theory not everyone acts out but one should also accept there are millions of responsible gun owners and the same theory applies.

Yet some here are fast to jump on the gun control issue..

Calls are given for Gun Control and not a peep about the utter violence depicted in movies..

In Fact most all people said they thought it was part of the Movie.

When Fast and Furious was brought up somehow the Gun Control zealots were silent as Church Mice..

You said before you want more laws.

If the People in Office claim Executive privilege for violating existing treaties and gun laws how are we to trust them?

johnw
07-22-2012, 04:05 PM
I mean a firearm needs to be fired to cause a dust-up. It is a human-produced crisis. I feel that it is clear that it was not my intention of suggesting that all owners are problematic. Note that I mentioned that everyone that i know is not a prob.

I'm not so sure we're in a crisis. Homicides per capita have been falling.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/07/22/opinion/072212krugman1/072212krugman1-blog480.jpg

We're not exactly Canada yet, but I'd say the crisis happened 30 years ago.

htom
07-22-2012, 04:10 PM
I always liked the "Cameras cause pornography" meme myself.

B_B
07-22-2012, 04:35 PM
I always liked the "Cameras cause pornography" meme myself.
I've always preferred the obfuscate by employing false parallels method of 'discussing' issues myself.

htom
07-22-2012, 05:00 PM
There's always "Pens cause forgery".

How about "Tragedy causes a panic reaction wherein people strike at those who didn't do the crime."

B_B
07-22-2012, 05:59 PM
There's always "Pens cause forgery".

How about "Tragedy causes a panic reaction wherein people strike at those who didn't do the crime."
Are they similar to the one "even though murder rates are declining the percentage of murders which employ guns is increasing"?

Or the other one "the percentage of murders employing handguns is increasing while the percentage by long guns is declining"?

Or "the percentage of murders involving two or more victims is increasing" and that "multiple victim homicides are more likely to involve guns than single victim homicides"?


Keith will love the following as it's full of graphs and numbers and data:
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/htius.pdf

htom
07-22-2012, 06:17 PM
"Multiple homicides most frequently occurring in 'GUN FREE' zones."

AndyG
07-22-2012, 06:21 PM
Calls are given for Gun Control and not a peep about the utter violence depicted in movies.

Spot on.

102 (ish) people are "killed" by Arnie in the execrable film Commando. And yet real uproar only occurs when a breast pops out during some live TV performance.

There's something deeply wrong with Western culture, I think.

Andy

John Smith
07-22-2012, 06:32 PM
..

Well a guy who thinks he's "The Joker" at a Batman screening kills and wounds a whole bunch of people, indicates at least in this instance he was influenced in a way by the movies.

I accept your theory not everyone acts out but one should also accept there are millions of responsible gun owners and the same theory applies.

Yet some here are fast to jump on the gun control issue..

Calls are given for Gun Control and not a peep about the utter violence depicted in movies..

In Fact most all people said they thought it was part of the Movie.

When Fast and Furious was brought up somehow the Gun Control zealots were silent as Church Mice..

You said before you want more laws.

If the People in Office claim Executive privilege for violating existing treaties and gun laws how are we to trust them?




I don't believe I've advocated for more gun laws, mainly because, as I've said frequently, I don't see how they can produce the desired result. One nut responding to Batman is not cause to blame Batman. One of the things Fast and Furious has pointed out is that an 18 year old can walk in to any gunshop in AZ and buy as many assault weapons as he wishes, and can them distribute them other people and it's perfectly legal.

I do find a strange human thought process in those that don't want our kids watching sex on tv or in the movies for fear they'll copy the behavior, but have no problem with those same kids watching violence.

Over the years there's been much discussion about the Jerry Springer show and other shows like it. My question is: why is there such a demand for these shows?

I'm not sure anyone in office as claimed executive privilege for violating existing gun laws: I think that's a right wing talking point. The whole "investitagion" by the house committee is a right wing talking point. If this was an honest investiagion, it would include those people from the previous administration who actually began these programs, rather than focus in on the man who ended them.

Violence in movies is also a freedom. Everyone is also free to not watch a movie. I stopped going to Eddie Murphy movies when I found him cursing too much. That's his right, and it is my right.

What we have, frequently, in this nation are innocent victims of someone else abusing their rights. It may be legal to own a gun, but not to kill someone with it.

We have a long history of laws that don't work well. Only Prohibition did we have the sense to repeal. Keeping gambling illegal doesn't prevent gambling; only makes the mob wealthy. Making guns illegal will only make the mob wealthy. Making abortion illegal will create a black market and self induced abortions and the deaths that go with them.

Part of our freedom is, as Marshall Dillion used to explain to Chester, "I can't lock him up for thinking about robbing the bank."

Phillip Allen
07-22-2012, 06:37 PM
" don't believe I've advocated for more gun laws, mainly because, as I've said frequently, I don't see how they can produce the desired result. One nut responding to Batman is not cause to blame Batman. One of the things Fast and Furious has pointed out is that an 18 year old can walk in to any gunshop in AZ and buy as many assault weapons as he wishes, and can them distribute them other people and it's perfectly legal."

I stopped reading right there... because the whole point of our many complaints about the government engineering the sales is that it was and is illegal... if you repeat that 'misinformation' after this many 'reminders' then you will be guilty of deliberate lying

John Smith
07-22-2012, 06:57 PM
" don't believe I've advocated for more gun laws, mainly because, as I've said frequently, I don't see how they can produce the desired result. One nut responding to Batman is not cause to blame Batman. One of the things Fast and Furious has pointed out is that an 18 year old can walk in to any gunshop in AZ and buy as many assault weapons as he wishes, and can them distribute them other people and it's perfectly legal."

I stopped reading right there... because the whole point of our many complaints about the government engineering the sales is that it was and is illegal... if you repeat that 'misinformation' after this many 'reminders' then you will be guilty of deliberate lying

As the Fortune magazine article put it:

"Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in
Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check.
There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to
resell the guns. 'In Arizona,' says (a federal agent), 'someone buying three
guns is like someone buying a sandwich.'"

Phillip Allen
07-22-2012, 07:01 PM
As the Fortune magazine article put it:

"Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in
Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check.
There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to
resell the guns. 'In Arizona,' says (a federal agent), 'someone buying three
guns is like someone buying a sandwich.'"
all of the straw buyers failed the criminal background check... sales were illegal

Garret
07-22-2012, 07:57 PM
Spot on.

102 (ish) people are "killed" by Arnie in the execrable film Commando. And yet real uproar only occurs when a breast pops out during some live TV performance.

There's something deeply wrong with Western culture, I think.

Andy

Bingo! I've been saying this for years - though I tend to apply it to the US more than "western culture".

B_B
07-22-2012, 09:27 PM
"Multiple homicides most frequently occurring in 'GUN FREE' zones."
Every thing I quoted has fact based backup. Does yours?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Ushomicidesbyweapon.svg/325px-Ushomicidesbyweapon.svg.png

htom
07-22-2012, 10:31 PM
Every thing I quoted has fact based backup. Does yours?



CROWLEY: Let me turn you back now to the situation in Colorado, and remind our viewers of what has happened. This is dating back to 1999, Littleton, Colorado, otherwise known as Columbine, 13 killed in a mass shooting. 2007, Virginia Tech, 32 killed. 2009, Fort Hood, Texas, 13 killed; 2012, Aurora, Colorado, 12 killed. Different circumstances, different people, but people look at this and say, can't we do anything to stop this?

Columbine, gun free zone
Virginia Tech, gun free zone
Fort Hood, gun free zone
Aurua, gun free zone.

It's there, a pattern you do not want to see. Firearms do not obey laws. Neither do criminals.

johnw
07-22-2012, 10:39 PM
CROWLEY: Let me turn you back now to the situation in Colorado, and remind our viewers of what has happened. This is dating back to 1999, Littleton, Colorado, otherwise known as Columbine, 13 killed in a mass shooting. 2007, Virginia Tech, 32 killed. 2009, Fort Hood, Texas, 13 killed; 2012, Aurora, Colorado, 12 killed. Different circumstances, different people, but people look at this and say, can't we do anything to stop this?

Columbine, gun free zone
Virginia Tech, gun free zone
Fort Hood, gun free zone
Aurua, gun free zone.

It's there, a pattern you do not want to see. Firearms do not obey laws. Neither do criminals.

Not according to this:

http://www.google.com/imgres?start=164&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1024&bih=561&addh=36&tbm=isch&tbnid=iM8xHD-MRBbDSM:&imgrefurl=http://www.hood.army.mil/&docid=FiiiLysmPtGg8M&itg=1&imgurl=http://www.hood.army.mil/ascx/zGetPics.aspx%253FImgID%253D05fe9a67-8eb3-4990-a898-180fc787ac4f%2526SecID%253DFS&w=364&h=242&ei=asYMUKrcMI24qQGN6vW5Cg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=549&sig=102415775954521167192&page=15&tbnh=160&tbnw=213&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:8,s:164,i:272&tx=93&ty=59
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTCRGsBMOfzCui4JDzJv6rsxHd8XLD_2 jjDOdn1KfafX2QLGtJfdQ

In any case, if these guys don't have guns, our money is not being spent well.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2009/11/05/timestopics/topics-forthood-395/sfSpan.jpg

htom
07-22-2012, 11:37 PM
Fort Hood, like most American military installations in this country (and some others), is indeed a gun-free zone. One of those strange-but-true things. Soldiers are not generally allowed to carry private concealed weapons on the base (whether or not they have local concealed carry permits), and their issue arms are required to be unloaded unless they are in actual live-ammo training. MPs on duty are usually armed, though.

B_B
07-23-2012, 12:31 AM
CROWLEY: Let me turn you back now to the situation in Colorado, and remind our viewers of what has happened. This is dating back to 1999, Littleton, Colorado, otherwise known as Columbine, 13 killed in a mass shooting. 2007, Virginia Tech, 32 killed. 2009, Fort Hood, Texas, 13 killed; 2012, Aurora, Colorado, 12 killed. Different circumstances, different people, but people look at this and say, can't we do anything to stop this?

Columbine, gun free zone
Virginia Tech, gun free zone
Fort Hood, gun free zone
Aurua, gun free zone.

It's there, a pattern you do not want to see. Firearms do not obey laws. Neither do criminals.
I'm not much on statistics, but I think 'homicides with more than two victims' includes a sample size much larger than the one you're proffering?

(did you bother to follow the link I provided, interesting statistics, real ones ;) )

Your post in no way responds to the following:

Or "the percentage of murders involving two or more victims is increasing" and that "multiple victim homicides are more likely to involve guns than single victim homicides"?

johnw
07-23-2012, 01:00 AM
Fort Hood, like most American military installations in this country (and some others), is indeed a gun-free zone. One of those strange-but-true things. Soldiers are not generally allowed to carry private concealed weapons on the base (whether or not they have local concealed carry permits), and their issue arms are required to be unloaded unless they are in actual live-ammo training. MPs on duty are usually armed, though.

No problem, I was just tickled with the idea of an army base being a gun-free zone. And there was an armed MP who was shot at the Ft. Hood incident, wasn't there?

2MeterTroll
07-23-2012, 05:21 AM
IMO most places with large groups of people tend to be gun free. so when a nutter shows up is fish in a barrel time. Wonder what happens when a nutter goes after the super-bowl.
Gee maybe the police will help us and keep us safe there only one cop per three civilians; we must need more cops! Or maybe we need another alphabet soup organization to spy on us even more.

heck with the way the republicans think RF chipping is looking like a fine idea... maybe with a little remotely detonated toxin capsule so this sort of thing can be stopped early.

this sort of thing may be the price of freedom of arms but it will get sour fast unless the firearm using public gets its collective head out and does something to make it less likely. Society also needs to get its collective head out and realize this in not the tools fault its the societies fault and it needs to change into something with workable solutions for lonely, depressed, disturbed Etc. folks.
It amuses me to hear the right sound horrified about a shooting when they have closed and defunded as much of the psychological help programs. I guess it works for them to see the disturbed folks go out with a bang. natural laws in action to bad for the collateral damage.

Chris Coose
07-23-2012, 07:30 AM
Phew, Ella went to the movies last night and didn't get killed by a gun man.

To say this is incident had nothing to do with guns is like saying cheese has nothing to do with a cheese burger.

Chris Woodward
07-23-2012, 08:28 AM
How many of you found this humorous? Disturbing? Who was offended by it? Who spoke up? It is a short path from behavior like this to a darkened movie theatre! We tolerate and cultivate a culture of cruelty and violence, then act all outraged when a massacre like this happens. Houston, WE have a problem.


The solution (from thread "Bastards")



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chRC7UOrSz8&feature=related

Phillip Allen
07-23-2012, 09:45 AM
Tossing in my 2 cents, FWIW:

I can't think of a worse event to try to base a gun freedom or gun control argument on, that this sad event.

It doesn't matter whether we have stringent gun control, or NO gun control... some crazed lunatic, intent on killing as many people as possible, will find a way... and gun control will have NO effect on the event. It's too bad that we can't identify people with mass homicidal intent; all we can say is that we should be grateful that these events, while splashing big in the press, are relatively rare.

(Having said that, I will agree that I think it is entirely rational to ban high capacity clips, as a balanced and reasonable degree of non-intrusive gun control. It might not have mattered much, in this particular incident (I believe I read that the shooter's AR-15 knockoff jammed)... but it certainly would have limited the collateral damage in the Gabrielle Giffords shooting, where the gunman had to pause to reload.)

thanks for noticing the jammed rifle stuff. aftermarket mags are notorious for jamming and the 100 round drum is/was a joke played on the uninformed. I take all mags (if there are more than one) to the range and use them full, nearly empty and anything else I can think of to make sure they function... then I put them away and use the small clips because they are more convenient… still there are those who must use mirrors to make sure they are using the proper technique and appear as they want to when practicing the sport of mag switching :)

Phillip Allen
07-23-2012, 09:49 AM
I thought the video was funny......some though would thinks it's real..................

it doesn't matter if it's real... it is still behaviour trainning

Redeye
07-23-2012, 10:00 AM
Switzerland is a racially homogenous society with relatively less social inequalities - they have higher levels of education and less stratification of wealth than we do. They also do not have quite the illegal drug trade problem that we do. They treat drug use as a health problem instead of as a criminal problem. Just to name a few things. . .

I very rarely visit the bilge, but here goes.

Switzerland is a very backwards country. There are two main voting types: The lived-in-a-villiage-all-my-life racist and the urban educated.
The levels of racism I see here are astounding, to the point where germans will be denied renting an apartment because they are german and not swiss. People will openly and honestly express their hatred of black people as though it were nothing more than a wine preference. I dated a woman for a while who by all appearances and interactions appeared progressive and educated, until one day when it came out of her like a torrent, this absolute hatred and fear of black people and foreigners in general. I was astounded, more so because I was foreign!

However, while every man (of swiss citizenship) between the ages of 18 and 40 generally has his military assault rifle at home, no one is supposed to have any ammo.
Nonetheless, and I'm not sure on the numbers here, but a reasonable degree of shootings (often spousal) are committed with the service weapon. There was a close run public referendum on keeping the gun at home only a year or two ago, the nays lost by only a small margin.

The main thing in this country though, is that nationalist and racist action only happens on a small one on one (or three on one) basis.

In general a killing spree is not the kind of thing that happens here, most likely because of the lower levels of poverty and general respect that others have for their fellow man. The spread of wealth here is amazing, but, in general even on a very low salary (or unemployed) the quality of living is high. Higher than working in the US. the average unemployment payment per month here in Switzerland is greater than a Post-Doc salary in a US university, and it doesn't cost THAT much more to live here.

Remember, the perpetrator in Denver was a well educated guy and he wasn't poor. He was a bit weird, to put is mildly. Imagine if he'd put his talents to work on some more destructive plan? I don't doubt the he is sufficiently intellectually endowed to devise a far more damaging plot against humanity.

My thoughts go out to the grieving.

In other parts of the world, a single person regularly kills 30-40 people at once. It's funny how our perspective changes when the incident is a closer to home. Is it the fact we weren't expecting it which makes it so bad? Should the Afghani and Iraqi people feel less aggrieved because we feel they should be expecting it?
In Mexico we find parties of people being shot to pieces in drug-gang raids. Is the grief and astonishment of these people less than ours?

Redeye
07-23-2012, 10:10 AM
Bingo! I've been saying this for years - though I tend to apply it to the US more than "western culture".


yes, it's not western culture, it's US culture. In Europe if a breast flops out it's usually just par for the course.

AndyG
07-23-2012, 10:20 AM
yes, it's not western culture, it's US culture. In Europe if a breast flops out it's usually just par for the course.

Ah - I must have missed that bit of the "Open Coverage". :rolleyes:

Andy

Phillip Allen
07-23-2012, 11:09 AM
I very rarely visit the bilge, but here goes.

Switzerland is a very backwards country. There are two main voting types: The lived-in-a-villiage-all-my-life racist and the urban educated.
The levels of racism I see here are astounding, to the point where germans will be denied renting an apartment because they are german and not swiss. People will openly and honestly express their hatred of black people as though it were nothing more than a wine preference. I dated a woman for a while who by all appearances and interactions appeared progressive and educated, until one day when it came out of her like a torrent, this absolute hatred and fear of black people and foreigners in general. I was astounded, more so because I was foreign!

However, while every man (of swiss citizenship) between the ages of 18 and 40 generally has his military assault rifle at home, no one is supposed to have any ammo.
Nonetheless, and I'm not sure on the numbers here, but a reasonable degree of shootings (often spousal) are committed with the service weapon. There was a close run public referendum on keeping the gun at home only a year or two ago, the nays lost by only a small margin.

The main thing in this country though, is that nationalist and racist action only happens on a small one on one (or three on one) basis.

In general a killing spree is not the kind of thing that happens here, most likely because of the lower levels of poverty and general respect that others have for their fellow man. The spread of wealth here is amazing, but, in general even on a very low salary (or unemployed) the quality of living is high. Higher than working in the US. the average unemployment payment per month here in Switzerland is greater than a Post-Doc salary in a US university, and it doesn't cost THAT much more to live here.

Remember, the perpetrator in Denver was a well educated guy and he wasn't poor. He was a bit weird, to put is mildly. Imagine if he'd put his talents to work on some more destructive plan? I don't doubt the he is sufficiently intellectually endowed to devise a far more damaging plot against humanity.

My thoughts go out to the grieving.

In other parts of the world, a single person regularly kills 30-40 people at once. It's funny how our perspective changes when the incident is a closer to home. Is it the fact we weren't expecting it which makes it so bad? Should the Afghani and Iraqi people feel less aggrieved because we feel they should be expecting it?
In Mexico we find parties of people being shot to pieces in drug-gang raids. Is the grief and astonishment of these people less than ours?

thank you... I hope some of our reactive posters read this

bobbys
07-23-2012, 11:17 AM
I very rarely visit the bilge, but here goes.

Switzerland is a very backwards country. There are two main voting types: The lived-in-a-villiage-all-my-life racist and the urban educated.
The levels of racism I see here are astounding, to the point where germans will be denied renting an apartment because they are german and not swiss. People will openly and honestly express their hatred of black people as though it were nothing more than a wine preference. I dated a woman for a while who by all appearances and interactions appeared progressive and educated, until one day when it came out of her like a torrent, this absolute hatred and fear of black people and foreigners in general. I was astounded, more so because I was foreign!

However, while every man (of swiss citizenship) between the ages of 18 and 40 generally has his military assault rifle at home, no one is supposed to have any ammo.
Nonetheless, and I'm not sure on the numbers here, but a reasonable degree of shootings (often spousal) are committed with the service weapon. There was a close run public referendum on keeping the gun at home only a year or two ago, the nays lost by only a small margin.

The main thing in this country though, is that nationalist and racist action only happens on a small one on one (or three on one) basis.

In general a killing spree is not the kind of thing that happens here, most likely because of the lower levels of poverty and general respect that others have for their fellow man. The spread of wealth here is amazing, but, in general even on a very low salary (or unemployed) the quality of living is high. Higher than working in the US. the average unemployment payment per month here in Switzerland is greater than a Post-Doc salary in a US university, and it doesn't cost THAT much more to live here.

Remember, the perpetrator in Denver was a well educated guy and he wasn't poor. He was a bit weird, to put is mildly. Imagine if he'd put his talents to work on some more destructive plan? I don't doubt the he is sufficiently intellectually endowed to devise a far more damaging plot against humanity.

My thoughts go out to the grieving.

In other parts of the world, a single person regularly kills 30-40 people at once. It's funny how our perspective changes when the incident is a closer to home. Is it the fact we weren't expecting it which makes it so bad? Should the Afghani and Iraqi people feel less aggrieved because we feel they should be expecting it?
In Mexico we find parties of people being shot to pieces in drug-gang raids. Is the grief and astonishment of these people less than ours?.

Thank you for your insight.

I know 2 Swiss people , Odd, they both went off on anti Semitic and Black people rants...

Course with their accents it was hard to tell exactly what they were saying but they were not shy about it..

Hate to use 2 examples for a whole country as that's not fair and i hate it when others do it but it fits in with what you wrote and made me understand where there coming from..

Chris Coose
07-23-2012, 04:04 PM
Home grown Dark Night

"Police seize arsenal from Biddeford man who saw 'Dark Knight'
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s480x480/306809_10150961943779613_1540426521_n.jpg


BIDDEFORD — A Biddeford man who told police he had snuck a loaded gun into a recent showing of the latest Batman was stopped for speeding on the Maine Turnpike and found to have what police describe as an arsenal.
A search of his home at 344 Elm St. in Biddeford uncovered more weapons, including a machine gun, other guns and thousands of rounds of ammunition, police said.
Courtois told police he had attended "The Dark Knight Rises" at the Cinemagic Theater in Saco Saturday night and that he brought a loaded gun in his backpack, police said.

Na, nothing to do with guns.

Tom Montgomery
07-23-2012, 04:14 PM
In other parts of the world, a single person regularly kills 30-40 people at once. It's funny how our perspective changes when the incident is a closer to home. Is it the fact we weren't expecting it which makes it so bad? Should the Afghani and Iraqi people feel less aggrieved because we feel they should be expecting it?

In Mexico we find parties of people being shot to pieces in drug-gang raids. Is the grief and astonishment of these people less than ours?
I think you have your finger on something. Terrorist acts and drug-gang related massacres at least give us a context to understand the motivation. But what are the odds that I will be the victim of a terrorist attack? What are the odds I'll be the victim of a drug-gang related murder? Slim.

But solitary gunmen murdering large numbers of people without immediately apparent motivation scares the bejabbers out of us. It reminds us of our mortality in an unnerving way.

Redeye
07-23-2012, 04:40 PM
I think you have your finger on something. Terrorist acts and drug-gang related massacres at least give us a context to understand the motivation. But what are the odds that I will be the victim of a terrorist attack? What are the odds I'll be the victim of a drug-gang related murder? Slim.

But solitary gunmen murdering large numbers of people without immediately apparent motivation scares the bejabbers out of us. It reminds us of our mortality in an unnerving way.

The probability is lower yes, but it is still entirely possible. Guns are everywhere in the US. and they are easy as pie to get. The flippancy with which guns and gun ownership appears to be treated in the US is similar to the nonchalance with which we treat naked bodies here in Europe.

The thing is, I'm used to seeing teenagers carrying assault rifles on the trains here. Every weekend, esp on Sunday, the young blokes have to turn out for their one or two weeks service. Not all of them are in uniform. The strangest was a bloke walking down the platform in a shabby singlet with a sloppy pair of track-pants and flip-flops, beer in one hand and assault rifle resting over his belly - 9am Sunday morning. I didn't think anything of it at the time, but later I was astonished that I was so used to seeing assault rifles in public.
What stops one of these guys flipping out and shooting a bunch of people? None of us would expect it. It's the society that stops it. Happened in Norway, though...

Our society is based on the trust that the guy next to you wont just turn around and strangle you. We all benefit from this trust. But this trust also leaves us vulnerable. This is the cost of an open society. Terrorists are just big organized gangs of criminals with different (or the same) motives as the Drug lords of mexico. The South of Italy is just choked by the strangle hold of the families - if we could simply identify and remove these gangs, we could recover enough money to completely fix the world economy.

Bob Adams
07-23-2012, 04:48 PM
Home grown Dark Night

"Police seize arsenal from Biddeford man who saw 'Dark Knight'
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/s480x480/306809_10150961943779613_1540426521_n.jpg



Na, nothing to do with guns.

Link?

Peerie Maa
07-23-2012, 04:59 PM
Our reaction is affected by what we understand. The Norwegian atrocity was motivated by a political point of view, a terrorist from a cadre of one, but coherent. We cannot relate to whatever was in Holmes mind, just as "I don't like Mondays" does not sit in our understanding. So we react differently to the different outrages.

Chris Coose
07-23-2012, 05:04 PM
Link?

Woops.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Biddeford-man-stopped-with-arsenal-hours-after-Batman-movie.html

Chris Coose
07-27-2012, 06:18 PM
Kinda catchy.

"Guns don't kill people. I do." The Joker

http://media.pressherald.com/images/MaylandShooter2.jpg

Man who was fired threatens mass shooting
The man called himself "a joker" and had an arsenal of semi-automatic rifles.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Man-being-fired-threatens-mass-shooting.html

Phillip Allen
07-27-2012, 06:45 PM
Kinda catchy.

"Guns don't kill people. I do." The Joker

http://media.pressherald.com/images/MaylandShooter2.jpg

Man who was fired threatens mass shooting
The man called himself "a joker" and had an arsenal of semi-automatic rifles.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Man-being-fired-threatens-mass-shooting.html

well over half of what appears in the picture are NOT semi automatic rifles... is this a lie by suggestion? going for the panic vote? giving up logic in favor of raw emotion? counting on ignorance?

Chris Coose
07-27-2012, 06:55 PM
arsenal..... a collection of weapons. I suppose more than one semi-automatic would be considered a arsenal/collection.

I like that quote he wears on his tshirt. How about you Phillip? I'd buy you one.

Chris Coose
08-31-2012, 09:41 AM
Police: 3 dead in NJ supermarket shooting
Authorities say 16 shots were fired and an AK-47, extra ammunition and a handgun were found at the scene.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Police-3-dead-in-NJ-supermarket-shooting-.html

I see Republicans are advocating no limit on ammo clips. They continue to couch the development of home arsenals on home protection. Massacres are to be considered exceptions.

Phillip Allen
08-31-2012, 09:58 AM
we missed your wisdom on the Empire State Massacre, ya know

Bob Adams
08-31-2012, 10:22 AM
Police: 3 dead in NJ supermarket shooting
Authorities say 16 shots were fired and an AK-47, extra ammunition and a handgun were found at the scene.

http://www.pressherald.com/news/Police-3-dead-in-NJ-supermarket-shooting-.html

I see Republicans are advocating no limit on ammo clips. They continue to couch the development of home arsenals on home protection. Massacres are to be considered exceptions.

At least get your terminology right, magazine, not clips.

Phillip Allen
08-31-2012, 10:42 AM
At least get your terminology right, magazine, not clips.

let em use 'clips' it lets the rest of us know who we're dealing with at the start.

Chris Coose
08-31-2012, 11:05 AM
Right. I don't know jacksht about guns cept they are used in massacres and other assorted killings.

Durnik
08-31-2012, 11:21 AM
http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob Adams http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=3519545#post3519545)
At least get your terminology right, magazine, not clips.



let em use 'clips' it lets the rest of us know who we're dealing with at the start.

Right. I have more than a few redneck, RW friends.. They _never_ say 'magazine'.. 'Clip' is the word of preference. But go ahead, mis-direct. Seems it's all you have.

Forget about the carnage. If the sensible firearm advocates (whom I do know exist) don't come up with some rational method of control, they will find themselves saddled with some they likely won't find so.. acceptable. Your call - bitch, moan & take what you get - or do something rational. Just so you know, the present situation is _not_ rational.

enjoy
bobby

John of Phoenix
08-31-2012, 11:37 AM
Your call - bitch, moan & take what you get - or do something rational.Rational? That's like "logical". You should see the "discussion" about the futility of this ploy on one of the many other gun threads. It's a hoot.

Bob Adams
08-31-2012, 12:11 PM
Fixed it fer ya.


Right. I don't know jacksht.

Durnik
08-31-2012, 04:34 PM
Rational? That's like "logical". You should see the "discussion" about the futility of this ploy on one of the many other gun threads. It's a hoot.

A Hoot.. Yea. How's Peter say? "Laughing to keep from crying"? Gawd, it's bizarre!

enjoy
bobby

McMike
09-01-2012, 01:17 PM
Right. I have more than a few redneck, RW friends.. They _never_ say 'magazine'.. 'Clip' is the word of preference. But go ahead, mis-direct. Seems it's all you have.

Forget about the carnage. If the sensible firearm advocates (whom I do know exist) don't come up with some rational method of control, they will find themselves saddled with some they likely won't find so.. acceptable. Your call - bitch, moan & take what you get - or do something rational. Just so you know, the present situation is _not_ rational.
enjoy
bobby

Yup . . .

Chris Coose
10-21-2012, 07:37 PM
Police: Gunman dead, 3 others killed at suburban Milwaukee salon.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/21/us/wisconsin-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

"The man accused of shooting seven people -- three of them fatally -- late Sunday morning inside a suburban Milwaukee salon has himself been found dead, Brookfield, Wisconsin, police Chief Daniel K. Tushaus said."


Couldn't he have just snapped the victims with a towel?

Phillip Allen
10-21-2012, 07:45 PM
domestic dispute... insanity on stilts

purri
10-21-2012, 09:14 PM
Obviously a bad hair day.
Police: Gunman dead, 3 others killed at suburban Milwaukee salon.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/21/us/wisconsin-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

"The man accused of shooting seven people -- three of them fatally -- late Sunday morning inside a suburban Milwaukee salon has himself been found dead, Brookfield, Wisconsin, police Chief Daniel K. Tushaus said."


Couldn't he have just snapped the victims with a towel?

Durnik
10-21-2012, 09:19 PM
A domestic dispute, well, that's ok, then.. Come on Chris, lighten up, eh? He was just getting back at his uppity ex.. Or so PA says.. 'course, he shot seven women.. & they're still not sure if his ex/wife is dead or was even one..

Domestic Dispute..PA, do us a favor.. find the 'on' switch for your brain.. & use it! A 'Domestic Dispute' is two people yelling at each other. This was an idiot with a gun who shot seven people cause he felt his dick was too tiny, for gawds sake! When will people WTFU?!?!

enjoy
bobby

Chris Coose
11-05-2012, 12:41 PM
Police, man in Jeep in armed standoff at Auburn Shaw’s parking lot

Thanks god it isn't a hammer he's threatening everybody with.

http://bangordailynews.com/2012/11/05/news/lewiston-auburn/police-standoff-under-way-at-auburn-shaws-parking-lot/