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View Full Version : here is an interesting headline about unions



Phillip Allen
07-10-2012, 12:14 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/hot-dogs-slick-ads-unions-spent-4-4-151032009.html

I think this is interesting, all things considered.

hanleyclifford
07-10-2012, 12:23 PM
Clearly Republican fascist propaganda.

Phillip Allen
07-10-2012, 12:27 PM
Clearly Republican fascist propaganda.

I'll check with wardd... he'll know

Bob Adams
07-10-2012, 12:28 PM
Clearly Republican fascist propaganda.

Do ya think:

From the report, which is partially behind a paywall at WSJ.com, (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304782404577488584031850026.html) but is available in full at FoxNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/10/political-spending-by-unions-far-exceeds-direct-donations/):

wardd
07-10-2012, 12:38 PM
is there something wrong with promoting your cause?

how much have republican fat cats spent in the same period and now in secret?

phill as the woman attending romneys fundraiser said you don't have enough wealth to understand what it's all about, but you go right ahead and toot your horn for the likes of her

Phillip Allen
07-10-2012, 01:47 PM
is there something wrong with cheering for your team?

how much have republican fat cats spent in the same period and now in secret?

phill as the woman attending romneys fundraiser said you don't have enough wealth to understand what it's all about, but you go right ahead and toot your horn for the likes of her

I fixed that to reflect a bit more truth

wardd
07-10-2012, 01:59 PM
I fixed that to reflect a bit more truth

if you're cheering for the republicans, you don't have a team, to them you're just cannon fodder to be used and discarded because as long as the use they right words you'll toe the line

hokiefan
07-10-2012, 03:37 PM
Just guessing, but I imagine that anti-union big business interests have probably spent as much or more promoting their political interests. If companies are people, unions should be too.

Cheers,

Bobby

wardd
07-10-2012, 06:18 PM
i bet if you check, unions are organized as companies too

Phillip Allen
07-10-2012, 06:23 PM
Just guessing, but I imagine that anti-union big business interests have probably spent as much or more promoting their political interests. If companies are people, unions should be too.

Cheers,

Bobby

agreed

wardd
07-10-2012, 06:27 PM
when a ceo spends corp money does he get the permission of all the stock holders?

Phillip Allen
07-10-2012, 08:21 PM
when a ceo spends corp money does he get the permission of all the stock holders?

the same way a union boss gets permission from the 'members'

wardd
07-10-2012, 08:24 PM
the same way a union boss gets permission from the 'members'

funny, i was always given a form asking if i wanted my dues spent that way

hokiefan
07-10-2012, 09:35 PM
the same way a union boss gets permission from the 'members'

Actually not quite true. The CEO can spend as he and the Board agree to. The shareholders can vote them out but that essentially never happens. In the case of the Unions the SCOTUS just recently found that the Union need the majority vote permission of their members to spent political money.

Cheers,

Bobby

Tom Montgomery
07-10-2012, 09:37 PM
Actually not quite true. The CEO can spend as he and the Board agree to. The shareholders can vote them out but that essentially never happens. In the case of the Unions the SCOTUS just recently found that the Union need the majority vote permission of their members to spent political money.

Another right-wing myth exploded. ;)

Tom Montgomery
07-10-2012, 09:37 PM
funny, i was always given a form asking if i wanted my dues spent that way
Yep. I voluntarily contribute, via payroll deduction, to the UAW CAP.

Phillip Allen does not know what he is talking about.

Surprise!

Glen Longino
07-10-2012, 09:53 PM
"Phillip Allen does not know what he is talking about."

That's never stopped him before!
Phillip should stick to subjects he's familiar with, like eating gunpowder and farting bullets!;)

Phillip Allen
07-10-2012, 10:14 PM
funny, i was always given a form asking if i wanted my dues spent that way

did you not read about the result of non forced payment of union dues in Wisconsin? it seems that the union runs the membership instead of the other way around... names like Jimmy Hoffa come to mind

Tom Montgomery
07-10-2012, 10:15 PM
*sigh*

Glen Longino
07-10-2012, 10:22 PM
did you not read about the result of non forced payment of union dues in Wisconsin? it seems that the union runs the membership instead of the other way around... names like Jimmy Hoffa come to mind

I rest my case!:D

wardd
07-10-2012, 11:10 PM
I rest my case!:D

he just doesn't get it

at first i thought he was putting us on but now i'm beginning to believe he's for real

David W Pratt
07-11-2012, 01:58 PM
Yeah, that question crossed my mind too, what has happened to union dues in WI muni unions?
RI press isn't all that on top of WI issues

Peerie Maa
07-11-2012, 02:19 PM
I wonder whether, in a spirit of being an even handed conversationalist (rather than a troll), Philip can find some statistics about how much corporations contribute.
Just by way of comparison.
Yesno?

wardd
07-11-2012, 03:09 PM
I wonder whether, in a spirit of being an even handed conversationalist (rather than a troll), Philip can find some statistics about how much corporations contribute.
Just by way of comparison.
Yesno?

but corporations are rich and phil worships the rich

after all his money is their money

hanleyclifford
07-11-2012, 04:28 PM
I make a distinction between unions in private sector and unions in government.

Peerie Maa
07-11-2012, 04:32 PM
I make a distinction between unions in private sector and unions in government.
Dunno why. They are all wage slaves to an employer who may try to exploit them, skimp on worker safety, or any of the other issues that are best resolved by having trained negotiators to facilitate solutions.

hanleyclifford
07-11-2012, 04:37 PM
Dunno why. They are all wage slaves to an employer who may try to exploit them, skimp on worker safety, or any of the other issues that are best resolved by having trained negotiators to facilitate solutions. Trolling across the ocean?

Kevin T
07-11-2012, 04:46 PM
Trolling across the ocean?

Actually weren't modern US unions an outgrowth of English trade, craft, and artisan guilds and the like, or am I mistaken?

Peerie Maa
07-11-2012, 05:00 PM
Trolling across the ocean?
Strange response to a straight forward observation.

wardd
07-11-2012, 05:26 PM
union members are people too

hanleyclifford
07-11-2012, 10:46 PM
Dunno why. They are all wage slaves to an employer who may try to exploit them, skimp on worker safety, or any of the other issues that are best resolved by having trained negotiators to facilitate solutions. These rather hyperbolic descriptions do not apply to public unions in the US where the real slaves are the taxpayers. Things may be different in the United Socialist Kingdom.

Glen Longino
07-11-2012, 11:56 PM
These rather hyperbolic descriptions do not apply to public unions in the US where the real slaves are the taxpayers. Things may be different in the United Socialist Kingdom.

Ah, at last the truth comes out of hanley!
He thinks of himself as a slave!
No wonder he whines, wails, pisses and moans like a victim everytime he's released into the Bilge by his overlords.

hokiefan
07-12-2012, 12:13 AM
Ah, at last the truth comes out of hanley!
He thinks of himself as a slave!
No wonder he whines, wails, pisses and moans like a victim everytime he's released into the Bilge by his overlords.

Don't be too hard on Mr Hanley! Despite being a bit to the right, he has demonstrated an occasional ability to listen, think, and be human we could all learn from.|:)

Cheers,

Bobby

Glen Longino
07-12-2012, 12:45 AM
Don't be too hard on Mr Hanley! Despite being a bit to the right, he has demonstrated an occasional ability to listen, think, and be human we could all learn from.|:)

Cheers,

Bobby

Let me get this straight.
Are you saying hanley is a misunderstood Liberal Slave Owner rather than an Abused Slave Taxpayer?
Okay...I'll trust you.;)

hanleyclifford
07-12-2012, 09:12 AM
Let me get this straight.
Are you saying hanley is a misunderstood Liberal Slave Owner rather than an Abused Slave Taxpayer?
Okay...I'll trust you.;) Glen, you not only funny man - you kinda confused as well.

Phillip Allen
07-12-2012, 10:20 AM
you lefties ought to listen yourselves sometimes... unions are BIG BUSINESS whether you admit it or not

we need unions... or we would if there weren't any
OTOH... if everyone was unionized we'd have a return of the CCCP because ultimately all unions would be controlled by central 'owners'

what we need is balance... not exclusivity. When you drive in a nail (succeed in unions) it is a mistake to keep on hitting it over and over because you end up destroying what you achieved… this is elementary but so long as we are in the ‘fight’ mode, we are a danger to ourselves… BALANCE!

Everyone here thinks I’m a Republican… not so… what I am is someone trying to pull this predominately left thinking bunch of rats back toward the middle… OF COURSE it looks like extremism to the ones pulling left… what else could they think so long as they strain to pull things toward the left.

THINK!

wardd
07-12-2012, 10:58 AM
you lefties ought to listen yourselves sometimes... unions are BIG BUSINESS whether you admit it or not

we need unions... or we would if there weren't any
OTOH... if everyone was unionized we'd have a return of the CCCP because ultimately all unions would be controlled by central 'owners'

what we need is balance... not exclusivity. When you drive in a nail (succeed in unions) it is a mistake to keep on hitting it over and over because you end up destroying what you achieved… this is elementary but so long as we are in the ‘fight’ mode, we are a danger to ourselves… BALANCE!

Everyone here thinks I’m a Republican… not so… what I am is someone trying to pull this predominately left thinking bunch of rats back toward the middle… OF COURSE it looks like extremism to the ones pulling left… what else could they think so long as they strain to pull things toward the left.

THINK!

you have no clue as to what a union is or how it functions

you grab aberrations and hold them up as an example of what all unions are

most unions are not monoliths but are made up of independent locals

it is the locals that represent most workers

i don't know who or what you are but your thinking is as far as i can see self destructive

Phillip Allen
07-12-2012, 11:25 AM
you have no clue as to what a union is or how it functions







i don't know who or what you are...

wardd... your post is self contradictory... see if you can reconcile those two sentences

wardd
07-12-2012, 11:30 AM
wardd... your post is self contradictory... see if you can reconcile those two sentences

explain contradiction

from what you've said you either have no clue about unions or are lying

Phillip Allen
07-12-2012, 11:55 AM
explain contradiction

from what you've said you either have no clue about unions or are lying



by that statement, you declare/assume that you are the holder of the truth... thus, anything that is not in line with your 'truth' is either an error (stupid/clueless) or a lie... is that what your statement is intended to convey?

Tom Montgomery
07-12-2012, 11:58 AM
we need unions... or we would if there weren't any
OTOH... if everyone was unionized we'd have a return of the CCCP because ultimately all unions would be controlled by central 'owners'

what we need is balance... not exclusivity. When you drive in a nail (succeed in unions) it is a mistake to keep on hitting it over and over because you end up destroying what you achieved… this is elementary but so long as we are in the ‘fight’ mode, we are a danger to ourselves… BALANCE!

Everyone here thinks I’m a Republican… not so… what I am is someone trying to pull this predominately left thinking bunch of rats back toward the middle… OF COURSE it looks like extremism to the ones pulling left… what else could they think so long as they strain to pull things toward the left.

THINK!

Thinking about the above post makes my head hurt.

Phillip Allen
07-12-2012, 12:03 PM
Thinking about the above post makes my head hurt.

I believe you

Tom Montgomery
07-12-2012, 12:03 PM
Your post was as clear as mud.

wardd
07-12-2012, 12:49 PM
i guess i'm not the only one

wardd
07-12-2012, 12:51 PM
by that statement, you declare/assume that you are the holder of the truth... thus, anything that is not in line with your 'truth' is either an error (stupid/clueless) or a lie... is that what your statement is intended to convey?

you mean in line with the facts?

from what you've said you have no knowledge about unions, has nothing to do about holding a truth about anything

Soundbounder
07-14-2012, 07:18 AM
Lots of misinformation on this thread.
I spent 10 years in the construction trades as a union insulator (pipe coverer), and it was nothing like what Philip Allen describes.

Phillip Allen
07-14-2012, 08:20 AM
Lots of misinformation on this thread.
I spent 10 years in the construction trades as a union insulator (pipe coverer), and it was nothing like what Philip Allen describes.
I was born in the construction business... and my father before me... that is a lot more than 10 years

Soundbounder
07-14-2012, 08:49 AM
I was born in the construction business... and my father before me... that is a lot more than 10 yearsI've been in construction much longer too. If you read a bit more carefully next time, you'll see I was referring to 10 years as a union member, which is something you know zilch about.... except what Sean Hannity has taught you.

Phillip Allen
07-14-2012, 08:50 AM
I've been in construction much longer too. If you read a bit more carefully next time, you'll see I was referring to 10 years as a union member, which is something you know zilch about.... except what Sean Hannity has taught you.

I was in the mason's union... (for a while)

Soundbounder
07-14-2012, 08:53 AM
I was in the mason's union... (for a while)And it was just like living in the Soviet Union??????

Phillip Allen
07-14-2012, 08:57 AM
And it was just like living in the Soviet Union??????

they had some good points... I have been speaking in general terrms though... don't ignore the point(s) I have also said that we would need unions if they didn't already exist... you are picking out phrases and arguing from the general to the specific

Soundbounder
07-14-2012, 09:18 AM
they had some good points... I have been speaking in general terrms though... don't ignore the point(s) I have also said that we would need unions if they didn't already exist... you are picking out phrases and arguing from the general to the specificNo, you can't hide behind that.

Either stand by your words or back down. You don't get immunity from your outrageously absurd comments simply because you also tossed in a vague compliment about unions having "some good points"

So once again, explain how life as a union tradesman is similar to life in the Soviet Union.

John Smith
07-14-2012, 09:27 AM
the same way a union boss gets permission from the 'members'

I can only speak from my experience, but pretty much everything my union ever did went to a vote of those who attended the meeting. There were exceptions when something important came up and the Executive Board would meet, but that, too, was a power given to it by the members.

Unions have been blamed for years and it's just like everything else: keep telling it and it becomes the perceived truth.

Does anyone really believe a union asks for something management can't afford to give? Many unions have agreed to cuts in pay or benefits to keep the company afloat, but the company being in sink mode was not the fault of the unions.

Meanwhile, in the political arena, the unions are the only voice the middle class has left, as as goes the middle class, so goes the country.

Paul Pless
07-14-2012, 09:29 AM
Does anyone really believe a union asks for something management can't afford to give?are you being serious? I can't tell. . .

John Smith
07-14-2012, 09:31 AM
Actually not quite true. The CEO can spend as he and the Board agree to. The shareholders can vote them out but that essentially never happens. In the case of the Unions the SCOTUS just recently found that the Union need the majority vote permission of their members to spent political money.

Cheers,

Bobby
I've not read the decision, but is it a majority of all the members or a majority of those who come to the meeting? Or of those who respond by mail if asked?

I ask this because you may have a union with 5000 members. The meeting and its agenda is well publicized. Maybe 50 show up. The majority of those will vote to spend the money on politics. However, as a point of information, my union had a political fund that was voluntarily contributed to. That was the money we spent on politics.

Back to my question. If you send a ballot/survey out to all 5000 members and 150 of them send it back with their vote, is the majority of those returned sufficient?

Phillip Allen
07-14-2012, 09:33 AM
No, you can't hide behind that.

Either stand by your words or back down. You don't get immunity from your outrageously absurd comments simply because you also tossed in a vague compliment about unions having "some good points"

So once again, explain how life as a union tradesman is similar to life in the Soviet Union.

I didn't say 'is', I said will become like any other controling power which is centralized and isolated from the 'lower' tiers of membership... like the CCCP

read what I wrote and not what you expect me to have written please... power ALWAYS gathers power unto it's self...think ahead

hanleyclifford
07-14-2012, 09:34 AM
Public unions will not only ask for whatever they want regardless of "management" being able to afford it, but they will seek to have it written into law with automatic increases that are difficult to expunge.

John Smith
07-14-2012, 09:34 AM
I make a distinction between unions in private sector and unions in government.

Unions in the public arena have been covered by the Hatch Act. Past that I see no reason to distinguish.

John Smith
07-14-2012, 09:36 AM
These rather hyperbolic descriptions do not apply to public unions in the US where the real slaves are the taxpayers. Things may be different in the United Socialist Kingdom.

That's more Conservative talking point garbage.

John Smith
07-14-2012, 09:41 AM
you lefties ought to listen yourselves sometimes... unions are BIG BUSINESS whether you admit it or not

we need unions... or we would if there weren't any
OTOH... if everyone was unionized we'd have a return of the CCCP because ultimately all unions would be controlled by central 'owners'

what we need is balance... not exclusivity. When you drive in a nail (succeed in unions) it is a mistake to keep on hitting it over and over because you end up destroying what you achieved… this is elementary but so long as we are in the ‘fight’ mode, we are a danger to ourselves… BALANCE!

Everyone here thinks I’m a Republican… not so… what I am is someone trying to pull this predominately left thinking bunch of rats back toward the middle… OF COURSE it looks like extremism to the ones pulling left… what else could they think so long as they strain to pull things toward the left.

THINK!
I think you should take your own advise and think. Just like I don't want to go back to the way things were before the EPA, I don't want to go back to before we had unions. If we go there, I guarantee most who hate unions now will miss them dearly.

The perception of unions is very misinformed. Wages and benefits are only an issue when it is contract time. Most contracts are negotiated and agreed to by the union AND management.

I spent most of my time as Chief Steward enforcing the rules management agreed to, but acted like they didn't exist. Sometimes it was a simple thing like getting light bulbs replaced so the workers had adequate lighting. I made sure management didn't discriminate when handing out overtime or leave.

It is part of speaking for the worker to keep track of polititians, candidates, and which ones will be better for the workers and which will be worse for the workers.

That is the union's responsibility.

Phillip Allen
07-14-2012, 09:46 AM
I think you should take your own advise and think. Just like I don't want to go back to the way things were before the EPA, I don't want to go back to before we had unions. If we go there, I guarantee most who hate unions now will miss them dearly.

The perception of unions is very misinformed. Wages and benefits are only an issue when it is contract time. Most contracts are negotiated and agreed to by the union AND management.

I spent most of my time as Chief Steward enforcing the rules management agreed to, but acted like they didn't exist. Sometimes it was a simple thing like getting light bulbs replaced so the workers had adequate lighting. I made sure management didn't discriminate when handing out overtime or leave.

It is part of speaking for the worker to keep track of polititians, candidates, and which ones will be better for the workers and which will be worse for the workers.

That is the union's responsibility.

I see from your post that you have been steeped in an adversarial relationship with management... didn't someone point out that when you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail?

John Smith
07-14-2012, 09:46 AM
are you being serious? I can't tell. . .

The fact that you can't understand the basics proves what the others are saying.

If I'm employed by a company, it is not in my best interest for that company to go under. When my union negotiates a contract, it has access to the books of the company and we know what the company can afford in the way of wages and benefits. It would be self-destructive to ask for more than they can afford. If they go out of business, I lose my job.

There are events outside the company that impacts stuff. The gas lines in the 70's really hurt Chrysler. The unions agreed to cuts to help keep the company going; it was in their own best interest to do so.

John Smith
07-14-2012, 09:49 AM
Public unions will not only ask for whatever they want regardless of "management" being able to afford it, but they will seek to have it written into law with automatic increases that are difficult to expunge.

Can you document that as a normal way of public unions operating?

I will give you this: a public union will fight to get its members a wage that allows them to live in the area where they work.

Phillip Allen
07-14-2012, 09:50 AM
JOhn, the rhetoric is that you work for the unionized company but the truth is you work for the union which then rents you out to that company

Paul Pless
07-14-2012, 09:51 AM
The fact that you can't understand the basics proves what the others are saying.

What the Hell?


If I'm employed by a company, it is not in my best interest for that company to go under. When my union negotiates a contract, it has access to the books of the company and we know what the company can afford in the way of wages and benefits. It would be self-destructive to ask for more than they can afford. If they go out of business, I lose my job.

Unions are as capable of and as likely to make decisions that place an emphasis on the short run over the long run as any other organization is. Do you think that union negotiations played no part in the near collapse of the U.S. auto industry during the last decade?

Phillip Allen
07-14-2012, 09:52 AM
What the Hell?

a simple ad hom, Paul...

hanleyclifford
07-14-2012, 09:54 AM
Can you document that as a normal way of public unions operating?

I will give you this: a public union will fight to get its members a wage that allows them to live in the area where they work. Indeed, John; for instance, COLAs are normal in public contracts no matter what is happening to the slobs who have to pay for them.