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bobbys
06-08-2012, 01:04 PM
.

OPPS My BAD!.


LA Times Supports Planned Parenthood Partnership with Local School District By Ryan Robertson (http://newsbusters.org/users/ryan-robertson) | June 08, 2012 | 10:50
4 (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ryan-robertson/2012/06/08/la-times-supports-planned-parenthood-partnership-local-school-distri#)
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A massive, notoriously scandal-ridden abortion provider is operating in Los Angeles high schools? What could go wrong?
Anna Gorman, writing for the Los Angeles Times on June 5, gave a glowing report of a highly controversial move: the nation’s largest abortion provider has been put in charge of a public high school’s health care.
Unsurprisingly, Gorman ignored the recent controversies concerning Planned Parenthood. Videos showing Planned Parenthood’s willingness to allow sex-selection (http://www.mrc.org/articles/week-later-networks-still-silent-about-planned-parenthood-videos) abortion and state revocations of funding (http://www.mrc.org/biasalerts/obama-administration-pulls-funding-cbs-scolds-texas-daring-harm-sacrosanct-planned-parent) failed to appear in the report.
School nurses such as Sherry Medrano of Roosevelt High School, dispense ‘free’ birth control products, pregnancy tests, and administer STD screenings. Even emergency contraception like the Plan B ‘Morning-After’ Pill (http://www.mrc.org/bias-alerts/nbc-and-cbs-frame-morning-after-pill-decision-politics-vs-science) is now available to adolescents.
Gorman ignored the fact that the apparent elimination of consequences of teenage sexual activity promotes reckless behavior. Nor did she reflect on the fact that a group that encourages sexual behavior may not be the best provider of reproductive health care. Abstinence was never once mentioned as an alternative.
Gorman interviewed Planned Parenthood Executive Director Sue Dunlap, who claimed she has never dealt with a problem regarding confidentiality. "We really don't experience the traditional narrative of angry parents not wanting access to reproductive care in the schools," she said. "It's really the opposite."
Impressionable high school students are conditioned to trivialize morality and sexuality at a young age by Planned Parenthood. Gorman refused to recognize any negative aspects of the collaboration in her report; neither does anyone she talks to in the piece.
Abortion is big business. A large portion of Planned Parenthood’s revenue is generated from tax revenue. According to an American Life League report (http://www.mrc.org/articles/media-ignore-planned-parenthoods-13-billion-federal-funding-discrepancy), the organization received more than $2 billion in federal grants and contracts between 2002 and 2008.The service it provides the public school system is also funded in large part by a taxpayer funded organization.
That being said, it’s hardly a surprise that a publication like the Los Angeles Times would publish an article praising Planned Parenthood, while ignoring any negative information. The story was shocking enough to warrant a link to the Drudge Report (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/06/05/planned-parenthood-sets-up-shop-at-roosevelt-high-to-reduce-teen-pregnancies/).

Bob Cleek
06-08-2012, 01:26 PM
The greatest evil posed by Planned Parenthood isn't its handing out rubbers to high school kids, but its foundational eugenic agenda. Their real mission, consciously funded by the goverment, is preventing what they see as the underclass from procreating: "The fewer poor children born, the better off we all will be."

"More children from the fit, less from the unfit -- that is the chief aim of birth control." Margaret Sanger, Birth Control Review, May 1919, p. 12

The purpose in promoting birth control is "to create a race of thoroughbreds." Margaret Sanger, Birth Control Review, Nov. 1921, p. 2

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race (Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)

Tom Montgomery
06-08-2012, 01:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47P59ha9k9s&feature=youtube_gdata_player

ljb5
06-08-2012, 01:51 PM
Margaret Sanger died fifty years ago.

The modern Planned Parenthood has no more relation to her than Volkswagen has to Hitler.

Dan McCosh
06-08-2012, 02:06 PM
Margaret Sanger died fifty years ago.

The modern Planned Parenthood has no more relation to her than Volkswagen has to Hitler. Volkswagen maintains a museum that documents its use of slave labor in WWII, acknowledging its relationship to Adolph Hitler. Photos and everything. You can even visit a cell where the workers slept at night.

David W Pratt
06-08-2012, 02:08 PM
Actually, they are willing to offer sex selective abortions.
I'm not sure sexism is more noble than racism.

Tom Montgomery
06-08-2012, 02:14 PM
Abortion is legal in the USA. How would anyone know why a woman chooses an abortion if she refuses to disclose her reasons?

A woman may opt for an abortion during her first trimester because she is eccentrically superstitious and does not want to give birth to any child in the month of January. Of course, no one need know that this is her motivation if she decides to keep it to herself.

It is more accurate to say that Planned Parenthood supports women's abortion rights regardless of the individual's reasons for choosing the procedure.

Phillip Allen
06-08-2012, 02:19 PM
Volkswagen maintains a museum that documents its use of slave labor in WWII, acknowledging its relationship to Adolph Hitler. Photos and everything. You can even visit a cell where the workers slept at night.

he always admits mistakes :)
crikets...

Tom Montgomery
06-08-2012, 02:24 PM
Does Mitsubishi have a similar museum documenting their contribution to Japanese military aggression in the first half of the twentieth century?

Oh boy, I'm imagining all the European and Asian corporations we could pillory!

ron ll
06-08-2012, 02:34 PM
I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out which, if any, of these posts are serious. Of course with Monte Python it's pretty easy to tell. Thanks for posting that Tom, I hadn't seen it before. :D

Dan McCosh
06-08-2012, 02:54 PM
Does Mitsubishi have a similar museum documenting their contribution to Japanese military aggression in the first half of the twentieth century?

Oh boy, I'm imagining all the European and Asian corporations we could pillory! Mitsubishi had a diorama in its corporate headquarters that includes a photo of the task force it built, en route to Pearl Harbor. Or at least it did when I saw it in the late 1970s. It was covered up with a sheet, but I peeked. The VW museum was built and staffed in response to a rash of public criticism that they were unwilling to address their role in WWII. I actually think it was an admirable gesture.

Tom Montgomery
06-08-2012, 03:09 PM
The VW museum was built and staffed in response to a rash of public criticism that they were unwilling to address their role in WWII. I actually think it was an admirable gesture.

+1 ;)

Bob Cleek
06-08-2012, 03:14 PM
Margaret Sanger died fifty years ago.

The modern Planned Parenthood has no more relation to her than Volkswagen has to Hitler.

I don't think Volkswager has for years lobbied the US Postal Service to issue a commemorative stamp with Hitler's picture on it, nor does Volkswagen annually hand out "The Adolph Hitler Award." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger_Awards

Research proves that even today, Planned Parenthood overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, directs its service efforts to Black and Hispanic communities. http://www.lifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/LifeDynamicsRacialReport.pdf

Wise up and think critically. Racisim and classism is what Planned Parenthood is all about today, just as it was when Sanger founded it. They've just toned down their rhetoric so people will drink their Kool Aid.

Dan McCosh
06-08-2012, 03:23 PM
I don't think Volkswager has for years lobbied the US Postal Service to issue a commemorative stamp with Hitler's picture on it, nor does Volkswagen hand out an annual award named after Hitler. Ferdinand Porsche was in prison as a war criminal when his son launched the Porsche 356. He was one of the chief designers of Nazi war machines, including the V1 rockets. He has been honored numerous times since.

Tom Montgomery
06-08-2012, 03:45 PM
I don't think Volkswager has for years lobbied the US Postal Service to issue a commemorative stamp with Hitler's picture on it, nor does Volkswagen annually hand out "The Adolph Hitler Award." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger_Awards

Research proves that even today, Planned Parenthood overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, directs its service efforts to Black and Hispanic communities. http://www.lifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/LifeDynamicsRacialReport.pdf
Could we not just as accurately and more charitably say that Planned Parenthood directs its sevices largely at poor neighborhoods? Why is that nefarious?

I agree that Margaret Sanger held some ugly opinions and attitudes. So did Henry Ford. I'll bet his mug has appeared on a postage stamp.

ljb5
06-08-2012, 03:47 PM
he always admits mistakes :)
crikets...

What mistake?

I was the one that pointed out the historical association between Hitler and Volkswagen. That's not a mistake. It's simple history.

The fact that Volkswagen has long since moved past that association just proves my point. The museum is a nice gesture, but the museum alone is not why people no longer associate the two. People forgave Volkswagen many years ago... not because of the musuem, but becaue they realized the company had moved on.

Tom Montgomery
06-08-2012, 03:51 PM
Easy ljb5....

Just when I think Phillip Allen has shaken his obsession with you, you poke him with a stick.

Phillip Allen
06-08-2012, 03:54 PM
What mistake?

I was the one that pointed out the historical association between Hitler and Volkswagen. That's not a mistake. It's simple history.

The fact that Volkswagen has long since moved past that association just proves my point. The museum is a nice gesture, but the museum alone is not why people no longer associate the two. People forgave Volkswagen many years ago... not because of the musuem, but becaue they realized the company had moved on.

you said VW had no connection to HItler... "The modern Planned Parenthood has no more relation to her than Volkswagen has to Hitler."

nuff said... busted... let the squirming begin

Tom Montgomery
06-08-2012, 03:57 PM
Phillip Allen: You are wrong.

Work on reading comprehension and logic.

ljb5
06-08-2012, 03:59 PM
Research proves that even today, Planned Parenthood overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, directs its service efforts to Black and Hispanic communities.

So... do you think that White women don't use birth control.... or do you suppose maybe they have access through different channels?

Maybe you should ask your sister or your daughter or some other white woman before you answer. You might be surprised.

In all probability, all the women you know use birth control and few, if any discussed it with you.

It's funny how many men get squeamish in the "feminine products" aisle of the supermarket --- yet feel so strongly about expressing their opinions on birth control. I think you need to get used to the idea that there's a whole world of women's health issues that is largely hidden from you. You don't know who is on birth control, who has had abortions, where White women go for birth control, etc.

McMike
06-08-2012, 04:07 PM
The greatest evil posed by Planned Parenthood isn't its handing out rubbers to high school kids, but its foundational eugenic agenda. Their real mission, consciously funded by the goverment, is preventing what they see as the underclass from procreating: "The fewer poor children born, the better off we all will be."

"More children from the fit, less from the unfit -- that is the chief aim of birth control." Margaret Sanger, Birth Control Review, May 1919, p. 12

The purpose in promoting birth control is "to create a race of thoroughbreds." Margaret Sanger, Birth Control Review, Nov. 1921, p. 2

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." Margaret Sanger, Women and the New Race (Eugenics Publ. Co., 1920, 1923)

Are not 16 year olds unfit? Are not those who can barely feed themselves unfit? Are not those who don't have the where-with-all to feed a cat or treat a dog humanly unfit? I don't care what color or creed you are but bringing a child up in poverty and neglect is morally wrong and should be discouraged.

Tom Montgomery
06-08-2012, 04:09 PM
Phillip Allen: ljb5 did not say VW had no connection to Hitler.

ljb5 posted, "The modern Planned Parenthood has no more relation to her [Sanger] than Volkswagen has to Hitler." That has a different meaning.

If you want to mix it up with adults you need to elevate your game.

wardd
06-08-2012, 04:11 PM
you said VW had no connection to HItler... "The modern Planned Parenthood has no more relation to her than Volkswagen has to Hitler."

nuff said... busted... let the squirming begin

"has"

ljb5
06-08-2012, 04:48 PM
I don't think Volkswager has for years lobbied the US Postal Service to issue a commemorative stamp with Hitler's picture on it, nor does Volkswagen annually hand out "The Adolph Hitler Award."

Perhaps not.... but I know where to find a statue of Jefferson Davis and an award given in his honor.

His best ideas were every bit as awful as Sanger's worst ideas.

Let's all sit back and watch Phillip turn purple.

skuthorp
06-08-2012, 04:59 PM
Troll, or maybe quite a few of them:rolleyes:........... maybe we could have section entitled ''TROLL" and keep them all tidily together.:d

Cuyahoga Chuck
06-08-2012, 06:23 PM
.

OPPS My BAD!.


LA Times Supports Planned Parenthood Partnership with Local School District

By Ryan Robertson (http://newsbusters.org/users/ryan-robertson) | June 08, 2012 | 10:50
4 (http://newsbusters.org/blogs/ryan-robertson/2012/06/08/la-times-supports-planned-parenthood-partnership-local-school-distri#)
Change font size: A | A
A massive, notoriously scandal-ridden abortion provider is operating in Los Angeles high schools? What could go wrong?
Anna Gorman, writing for the Los Angeles Times on June 5, gave a glowing report of a highly controversial move: the nation’s largest abortion provider has been put in charge of a public high school’s health care.
Unsurprisingly, Gorman ignored the recent controversies concerning Planned Parenthood. Videos showing Planned Parenthood’s willingness to allow sex-selection (http://www.mrc.org/articles/week-later-networks-still-silent-about-planned-parenthood-videos) abortion and state revocations of funding (http://www.mrc.org/biasalerts/obama-administration-pulls-funding-cbs-scolds-texas-daring-harm-sacrosanct-planned-parent) failed to appear in the report.
School nurses such as Sherry Medrano of Roosevelt High School, dispense ‘free’ birth control products, pregnancy tests, and administer STD screenings. Even emergency contraception like the Plan B ‘Morning-After’ Pill (http://www.mrc.org/bias-alerts/nbc-and-cbs-frame-morning-after-pill-decision-politics-vs-science) is now available to adolescents.
Gorman ignored the fact that the apparent elimination of consequences of teenage sexual activity promotes reckless behavior. Nor did she reflect on the fact that a group that encourages sexual behavior may not be the best provider of reproductive health care. Abstinence was never once mentioned as an alternative.
Gorman interviewed Planned Parenthood Executive Director Sue Dunlap, who claimed she has never dealt with a problem regarding confidentiality. "We really don't experience the traditional narrative of angry parents not wanting access to reproductive care in the schools," she said. "It's really the opposite."
Impressionable high school students are conditioned to trivialize morality and sexuality at a young age by Planned Parenthood. Gorman refused to recognize any negative aspects of the collaboration in her report; neither does anyone she talks to in the piece.
Abortion is big business. A large portion of Planned Parenthood’s revenue is generated from tax revenue. According to an American Life League report (http://www.mrc.org/articles/media-ignore-planned-parenthoods-13-billion-federal-funding-discrepancy), the organization received more than $2 billion in federal grants and contracts between 2002 and 2008.The service it provides the public school system is also funded in large part by a taxpayer funded organization.
That being said, it’s hardly a surprise that a publication like the Los Angeles Times would publish an article praising Planned Parenthood, while ignoring any negative information. The story was shocking enough to warrant a link to the Drudge Report (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/06/05/planned-parenthood-sets-up-shop-at-roosevelt-high-to-reduce-teen-pregnancies/).

You sup at a rather poisonous trough, krajan!

Tom Montgomery
06-08-2012, 06:30 PM
Perhaps not.... but I know where to find a statue of Jefferson Davis and an award given in his honor.

His best ideas were every bit as awful as Sanger's worst ideas.

No fair! ;)

Keith Wilson
06-08-2012, 08:17 PM
. . . its foundational eugenic agenda. Their real mission, consciously funded by the goverment, is preventing what they see as the underclass from procreating: "The fewer poor children born, the better off we all will be."Bob, you are neither an ideologue nor a fool, and how you can possibly believe this flaming tinfoil-hat nonsense is quite beyond me. In 1921, eugenics was a perfectly respectable mainstream idea, supported both by many on both the right and left. You will remember that all kinds of birth control were illegal in most states in the early 20th century. Ms Sanger used eugenic arguments popular at the time to reduce resistance to the idea of women controlling their own fertility. Eugenics was a minor part of her argument, and Planned Parenthood long ago completely abandoned it. I have known a lot of people who worked for Planned Parenthood over the years, and not a single one of them has the slightest use for the ideas you imagine are behind the organization.

Sam F
06-08-2012, 08:22 PM
Bob, you are neither an ideologue nor a fool, and how you can possibly believe this flaming tinfoil-hat nonsense is quite beyond me. In 1921, eugenics was a perfectly respectable mainstream idea, supported both by many on both the right and left...

True. But how does that help and organization that continues such policies.
Not a bit.

Glen Longino
06-08-2012, 08:27 PM
Bob, you are neither an ideologue nor a fool, and how you can possibly believe this flaming tinfoil-hat nonsense is quite beyond me. In 1921, eugenics was a perfectly respectable mainstream idea, supported both by many on both the right and left. You will remember that all kinds of birth control were illegal in most states in the early 20th century. Ms Sanger used eugenic arguments popular at the time to reduce resistance to the idea of women controlling their own fertility. Eugenics was a minor part of her argument, and Planned Parenthood long ago completely abandoned it. I have know a lot of people who worked for Planned Parenthood over the years, an not a single one of them has the slightest use for the ideas you imagine are behind the organization.

Bob does not believe eugenics are a modern issue any more than Sam F does!
Bob and Sam only want All Of Us to believe it!;)

Keith Wilson
06-08-2012, 08:30 PM
. . . an organization that continues such policies.Sorry, Sam, that's simply not true. Eugenics forms no part of Planned Parenthood's mission, overt, covert, or in any other way. They give people the opportunity to make their own choices. One may reasonably disagree with what they actually do, but spreading lies is wrong.

LeeG
06-08-2012, 08:40 PM
hey Bobbys, care to contribute some of your own thoughts to the matter or do you wish to simply post idiotic subject lines with unrelated c&p?

Glen Longino
06-08-2012, 08:47 PM
hey Bobbys, care to contribute some of your own thoughts to the matter or do you wish to simply post idiotic subject lines with unrelated c&p?

Ooooh, I know the answer!
bobbys wishes to "simply post idiotic subject lines with unrelated c&p"!;)

LeeG
06-08-2012, 08:51 PM
cool

http://lifeinc.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/07/12105916-we-worry-about-energy-but-feel-powerless-to-act?lite


By Allison Linn
Americans are worried about the nation’s energy problems and take some personal responsibility for them, but they don’t necessarily feel like they have the ability to make major changes soon to address them.
That’s according to a new survey from the Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research, which was conducted earlier this year and released Thursday.
The survey found that 78 percent of Americans say energy issues are extremely or very important and 72 percent feel that way about gas prices.
Still, they place even more importance the economy, education and health care. And when it comes to finding solutions, they are looking to the energy industry and the government.

LeeG
06-08-2012, 08:53 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-07/japan-cabinet-said-to-approve-insuring-iranian-tanker-calls-1-.html


Japan’s Cabinet is poised to approve a bill giving sovereign guarantees for the nation’s oil tankers loading Iranian crude, potentially undermining Western sanctions targeting the Persian Gulf nation’s nuclear program.
The government plans to provide as much as $7.6 billion so that ship owners and petroleum refiners can maintain insurance when hauling crude from Iran, according to two government officials with direct knowledge of the law, who declined to be identified before the Cabinet gives consent to the legislation as soon as tomorrow. The bill will be submitted to the Diet, or national parliament, after the Cabinet endorses it, they said.

Nicholas Scheuer
06-08-2012, 09:08 PM
And what, pray tell, was Volkswagen manufacturing with "slave labor?

Sam F
06-08-2012, 09:10 PM
Sorry, Sam, that's simply not true. Eugenics forms no part of Planned Parenthood's mission, overt, covert, or in any other way.

Sorry won't work. 92% of Down's syndrome babies are aborted in the US. If that isn't Eugenics, what is?


They give people the opportunity to make their own choices.

Absolutely! And you just demolished your argument since people often chose to abort less-than-perfect babies.


One may reasonably disagree with what they actually do, but spreading lies is wrong.

Spreading lies is wrong & I won't spread any. Also wrong is aborting Down's syndrome babies and so is genderecide


http://youtu.be/6Fz2KLSxDzc

There it is plain as the nose on your face... Once again the fine young folk at LiveAction have caught Planned Parenthood in the act.

So tell me Keith, given PP's proven collaboration with sex trafficking & underage prostitution, shielding rapists, and now gendercide, what else is it going to take to convince you?

wardd
06-08-2012, 09:11 PM
And what, pray tell, was Volkswagen manufacturing with "slave labor?

vw made a jeep like vehicle for one

Sam F
06-08-2012, 09:13 PM
Bob does not believe eugenics are a modern issue any more than Sam F does!

You are mistaken. There is nothing more modern than Eugenics.

http://wp.patheos.com.s3.amazonaws.com/blogs/bristolpalin/files/2012/05/Eightpercent.png

wardd
06-08-2012, 09:20 PM
You are mistaken. There is nothing more modern than Eugenics.

and phrenology

bobbys
06-08-2012, 09:54 PM
hey Bobbys, care to contribute some of your own thoughts to the matter or do you wish to simply post idiotic subject lines with unrelated c&p?.



I once had a VW but it was a 6 volt and the heater hardly worked..

Bob Cleek
06-08-2012, 10:52 PM
So... do you think that White women don't use birth control.... or do you suppose maybe they have access through different channels?

Maybe you should ask your sister or your daughter or some other white woman before you answer. You might be surprised.

In all probability, all the women you know use birth control and few, if any discussed it with you.

It's funny how many men get squeamish in the "feminine products" aisle of the supermarket --- yet feel so strongly about expressing their opinions on birth control. I think you need to get used to the idea that there's a whole world of women's health issues that is largely hidden from you. You don't know who is on birth control, who has had abortions, where White women go for birth control, etc.

WTF does all that have to do with the price of eggs in China? My beef with PP doesn't have anything to do with birth control. It has to do with their racist eugenic agenda, which they have had since their founding and which, now, they conceal with "spin."

Their efforts are directed to Black and Hispanic women. Not "the poor" in general. Black and Hispanic poor.

Read the statistics.

Bob Cleek
06-08-2012, 10:59 PM
Are not 16 year olds unfit? Are not those who can barely feed themselves unfit? Are not those who don't have the where-with-all to feed a cat or treat a dog humanly unfit? I don't care what color or creed you are but bringing a child up in poverty and neglect is morally wrong and should be discouraged.

So, put another way, you're telling poor people their having kids is morally wrong and you think they shouldn't do it?

You just try standing on the corner in a poor neighborhood and telling that to everybody you see with a kid. I'm figuring you'd be unconscious in less than five minutes.

Can you understand why they would feel that way?

Bob Cleek
06-08-2012, 11:07 PM
Bob, you are neither an ideologue nor a fool, and how you can possibly believe this flaming tinfoil-hat nonsense is quite beyond me. In 1921, eugenics was a perfectly respectable mainstream idea, supported both by many on both the right and left. You will remember that all kinds of birth control were illegal in most states in the early 20th century. Ms Sanger used eugenic arguments popular at the time to reduce resistance to the idea of women controlling their own fertility. Eugenics was a minor part of her argument, and Planned Parenthood long ago completely abandoned it. I have known a lot of people who worked for Planned Parenthood over the years, and not a single one of them has the slightest use for the ideas you imagine are behind the organization.

Saying PP has a eugenic agenda because of Sanger's statements ninety-five years ago is like saying the LDS Church today has a poligamistic agenda.

I'm saying PP has a eugenic agenda today because of what they say and what they do. Look at the statistics.
Look at what the thinkers in the Black and Hispanic communities have to say about it. Look at what more and more feminist organizations are realizing. They don't think PP is doing them a favor!

LeeG
06-09-2012, 03:04 AM
.



I once had a VW but it was a 6 volt and the heater hardly worked..


http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Guest-Post-The-Saudi-Oil-Problem/

Saudi Arabia exports about 8 million barrels per day ('mbpd' from now on), with Russia not too far behind at about 7 mbpd.

So far, this is all fairly familiar data. However, what is not well known is the degree to which Saudi Arabia’s massive oil exports are threatened by its demographics and a probable decline in its aging supergiant oil fields.

A new report from the U.K.’s Chatham House (PDF) examines this problem in detail. They conclude that Saudi Arabia’s oil exports will peak around 2020 and, under current policies, decline to zero by 2038. You read that right: decline to zero. This decline will occur due to the dramatic growth in consumption by Saudi Arabia’s rapidly growing population and increases in per capita energy consumption. Saudi domestic consumption of oil is growing at about 7 percent per year, which leads to a doubling of consumption in just ten years.

LeeG
06-09-2012, 03:20 AM
http://idealab.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/national-laboratory-pivots-from-electric-to-natural-gas-vehicles.php?ref=fpb


A government-funded laboratory that helped pioneer the battery technology behind many electric vehicles, including the Chevy Volt, has recently begun to focus on developing technologies to improve natural gas-powered vehicles, in anticipation of government and industry soon seeking to bring consumer-friendly natural gas cars to market.

“Our conclusion is that natural gas as a transportation fuel has both adequate abundance and cost advantages that make a strong case to focus interest in the technology as a real game changer in US energy security,” said Mike Duoba, an engineer at the auto research center at Argonne National Laboratory near Chicago, Illinois.

“In terms of consumer ownership and use costs, the case to make a switch from current fuels to CNG is much more compelling than for other alternative fuels like ethanol and electricity,” he added.

ljb5
06-09-2012, 04:14 AM
Their efforts are directed to Black and Hispanic women. Not "the poor" in general. Black and Hispanic poor.

So, are you saying that Blacks and Hispanics should not have access to birth control?

Or are you saying that they should have access, but only through the same channels generally used by white women?

It seems to me that the issue you are missing is the voluntary nature of their services. They only provide services to people who seek them out; this implies, rather strongly that these services are in demand and viewed as favorable by the people who receive them.

ljb5
06-09-2012, 04:41 AM
Saying PP has a eugenic agenda because of Sanger's statements ninety-five years ago is like saying the LDS Church today has a poligamistic agenda.

I'm saying PP has a eugenic agenda today because of what they say and what they do. Look at the statistics.

Maybe you shouldn't have started out with a collection of quotes from Sanger 95 years ago. That kinda created the appearance that you were focusing on Sanger's statements.

I looked at the so-called "statistics" you presented from that propaganda piece.

There are some obvious problems with it: (1) No effort is made to account for the economics of the various zip codes they study. They present the (approximate) ethnic breakdown of the zip code, but without economic information, it is impossible to tell if the clinics are placed there for racial reasons or economic reasons. In economics, it is standard practice to present multiple factors.

(2) There is no consideration of other sources of birth control. As we already discussed, White women do have access to birth control. Perhaps Planned Parenthood places their clinics in minority communities not to target minorities, but rather to bring the availability of services up to (or closer to) what is available to White women. Without even a consideration of this factor, the analysis is garbage.

(3) There's an even more basic problem with the statistics. In any random sampling, you would expect about about half the samples to be above average for one statistic. (This should be self-evident from the definition of "average.") If you're looking at two independent parameters simultaneously (% African American AND % Hispanic), the likelihood that one or the other is above average is nearer to 75%. So when they say, "Texas which has 94 Zip codes with at least one population control facility. Of those, only 22 are not disproportionately black and/or Hispanic".... they're pretty much saying that's exactly what you would expect from random (not racially targeted) selection.

Of course, I cannot say for certain that these two parameters are independent variables..... but I know for damn sure the authors of this "study" made no attempt to even consider that issue.


Also... .since you encouraged me to look at the statistics, I did. Earlier, you suggested that Planned Parenthood directs their services almost exclusively to minorities communities. Even by the statistics you presented, that is clearly not true.

Looking at Colorado, for example, 17 of the 23 clinics are located in zip codes where the percent of minorities is under (and in some cases way under) the state average.

That proves your claim false.

You going to give up now, or keep fighting? You will never, ever, be better at this than I am. And the longer you rely on flimsy propaganda pieces for your information, the worse you will get.

Keith Wilson
06-09-2012, 07:46 AM
I'm saying PP has a eugenic agenda today because of what they say and what they do. Look at the statistics.I know what they say and and what they do far better than you do, and from personal experience, not reading. What do they say (not what other people say about them)? What statistics? Ljb did an excellent job of demolishing the ones you referenced. I'm sorry, Bob, but it's a lie, pure and simple. They have no eugenics agenda. You may disagree with their position on abortion, you may disagree with their position on birth control, and on many other things; that's your right - but spreading lies is wrong.

Sam, providing people the opportunity to have an abortion if they wish is not a 'eugenics agenda' . Yes, many people decide to abort a fetus with Down's syndrome. I might do it myself. This does not mean the organization is trying to convince them to do it. Blame the parents if you like, but you don't have to raise the child.

The 'fine folk' at Live Action are despicable liars and cheats. You want to show a picture of the guy in the pimp suit? Again, object to abortions if you like, but lies in the service of a cause you believe to be good are are still lies.

ljb5
06-09-2012, 12:52 PM
What statistics? Ljb did an excellent job of demolishing the ones you referenced. I'm sorry, Bob, but it's a lie, pure and simple. '

Other factors that are missing from that so-called "statistical analysis:

(1) Property values (One would hardly expect a non-profit clinic to open a branch on Rodeo Drive, would they?)
(2) Population density. (Neither should we expect Planned Parenthood to open a clinic to serve the needs of the one resident of Vermont, 05141)
(3) Percent of population between the ages of 18 and 40. (Or thereabouts).

I think it's very likely that these three factors influence Planned Parenthood site selection and that they correlate, at least somewhat with %minority population. Any competent statistical analysis would correct for these -- or, at the very least, mention them.

Besides the lack of statistical rigor, the entire methodology is patently ridiculous. Check out, for example, Ohio Zip 45044. This area has a black population of 11.6%, slightly higher than the state-wide average of 11.5%. The Hispanic population is 1.1% ... about half of the state-wide average.

This zip code is therefore about 87.3% White (ignoring other races)... which actually makes it slightly Whiter than the state-wide average of 86.6%. Yet, because of that extra 0.1% black population, this study claims that specific clinic is located there for racist reasons.

Think about that for a second: 87.3% of the area is White, it's whiter than average -- and yet still, they claim they're targeting minorities!

Bob, do you have any explanation for the shoddiness of this "study" or how and why you were taken in by it??

Bob Cleek
06-09-2012, 02:22 PM
It seems to me that the issue you are missing is the voluntary nature of their services. They only provide services to people who seek them out; this implies, rather strongly that these services are in demand and viewed as favorable by the people who receive them.

The same is true of pimps and drug dealers, whose market base is also in large measure the poor and minorities. Their services are similarly "in demand and viewed as favorable by the people who receive them."

I'll grant you that "zip code" demographics are susceptible to error. Wealthy and poor neighborhoods obviously exist side by side in the same zip code, and so on. Your analysis is quite convincing. My concerns aren't based solely upon whether or not PP intentionally locates clinics in poor neighborhoods, but rather upon the disproportionate negative effects of PP's services upon the poor and minority communities. In actuality, we don't have to argue about where PP puts its abortion clinics at all because PP's own statistical data confirms that regardless of where their clinics are located, they are providing abortions to minority women in hugely disproportionate ratios. The results of any endeavor cannot be judged by their motivating intentions, but by their ultimate consequences.

Blacks comprise 12.6% of the US population; Hispanics 16.3%. (US Census data.) Non-Hispanic Black women receive 30% of abortions, Hispanic women 25% and women of other minority groups 9%. These are PP"s own figures. (Jones RK, Finer LB and Singh S, Characteristics of U.S. Abortion Patients, 2008, New York: Guttmacher Institute, 2010.) (The Guttmacher Institute in 1968 was founded as the "Center for Family Planning Program Development", a semi-autonomous division of The Planned Parenthood Federation of America. The Center was renamed in memory of Alan Frank Guttmacher, an Ob/Gyn and former president of Planned Parenthood.)

Ninety-eight percent of Planned Parenthood’s services to pregnant women (abortion, adoption and prenatal care) are abortion (according to its 2009 report: 332,278 abortions, 7,021 prenatal care clients, and 977 adoption
referrals to other agencies.)Planned Parenthood acknowledges that it provided primary care only to about 19,700 of its 3 million unduplicated clients. (Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Planned Parenthood Services (Feb.2011), p. 2 (reporting on 2009 figures.) Planned Parenthood received 363.2 million dollars of government grants and contracts in Fiscal Year 2008-09 and performed 332,278 abortions in the year ending June, 2009, 27% of all abortions in the U.S. (Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Inc. Annual Report 2008-09, p. 29, and 2008 Income Tax Returns; See Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Planned Parenthood Services, p. 2, supra)

Abortion kills more black people than the seven leading causes of death combined (heart disease, cancer, strokes, accidents, diabetes, homicide, and chronic lower respiratory diseases) according to CDC data. (National Center for Health Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, 2008.) Estimates are that since the Roe v. Wade decision, nearly 17 million black prgnancies have been aborted, reducing the potential black population by almost one third. Abortion and its largest provider in the US have become a serious concern in the Black community. Dr. Alveda King, the niece of Dr. Martin Luther King, said: “Abortion is a racist, genocidal act. Children are the future. When you destroy your children, you destroy hope.”

Looking at Planned Parenthood's own figures, I find it hard to argue with her.

ljb5
06-09-2012, 02:41 PM
Bob, before we get into the analysis of the new stats you just posted, why don't we take a moment to analyze that last load of hogwash you dumped here?

You aren't seriously going to stand by that, are you?

How could you possibly be taken in by that nonsense?

Aren't you ashamed of being taken for a fool?

Don't you think it would be appropriate for you to at least acknowledge the problems with the study? Do you have any concept of integrity?

You know I'm right, (of course). If you can't accept and admit that, you cannot legitimately engage in discussion.

jack grebe
06-09-2012, 02:50 PM
Does anyone besides me notice that certain outspoken
bilge rats are NOT part of this discussion?????

jack grebe
06-09-2012, 02:53 PM
The same is true of pimps and drug dealers

Are you lumping them together??




just askin

Bob Cleek
06-09-2012, 03:05 PM
Are you lumping them together??




just askin


No, altlhough sometimes you'll find a pimp who's also a drug dealer and vice versa.

jack grebe
06-09-2012, 03:51 PM
No, altlhough sometimes you'll find a pimp who's also a drug dealer and vice versa.
Nice try............I meant Planned Parenthood / pimps/ and drug dealers

SamSam
06-09-2012, 04:01 PM
Abortions comprise only 3% of the services PP performs.

73% of abortions are performed somewhere other than PP. Would that be in the rich, white zipcodes, where people can afford them or their insurance covers them?

Pimps, drug dealers, doctors and lawyers all provide voluntary services.
The same is true of pimps and drug dealers, whose market base is also in large measure the poor and minorities.
Is this true or is it a stereotype? Who gets arrested in prostitution stings? Drugs pervade society. People everywhere smoke dope, do lines, drink alcohol, abuse prescriptions, smoke cigarettes.

Keith Wilson
06-09-2012, 05:00 PM
The same is true of pimps and drug dealers, whose market base is also in large measure the poor and minorities.Yes, and your point is? The same is true of Catholic Charities, and Habitat for Humanity.

Bob, you are certainly intelligent enough to realize the utter raving illogic of the leap from 'African-American women have abortions at a higher rate than the general population' to 'Planned Parenthood is practicing eugenics'. You might consider two factors: economics, and religion. More black women are poor. Fewer black women are members of denominations that oppose abortion. You think that might have something to do with it?

jack grebe
06-09-2012, 05:05 PM
Fewer black women are members of denominations that oppose abortion. You think that might have something to do with it?

Link??????????

Tom Montgomery
06-09-2012, 05:15 PM
This eugenics brouhaha is silly. There is really no need to attach nefarious motives to abortion providers. Having an abortion is a strictly voluntary decision.

The fact of the matter is that women may legally choose to have a first trimester abortion for any reason whatsoever. And women are under no obligation to reveal their reasons for making that choice.

Bob Cleek, Sam F, and many others object to the legality of abortion under any circumstance.

Keith Wilson
06-09-2012, 05:17 PM
http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedimages/Topics/Demographics/africanuscompare_revised_checked_final.jpg

Look at the percentages of Catholics.

ljb5
06-09-2012, 05:34 PM
Bob Cleek, Sam F, and many others object to the legality of abortion under any circumstance.

Although I don't share his views, I can understand Bob's objection to abortion on religious or moral grounds.

But I just can't tolerate lying, or using ridiculously misleading, illogical and deceptive "statistics."

What type of "morality" could possibly be served by overt, unashamed lying? That's not morality at all.

Keith Wilson
06-09-2012, 09:59 PM
This is a very curious thing, and one I've seen over and over again. Those who object to abortion obviously think Planned Parenthood does bad things. According to their view of the world, Planned Parenthood murders hundreds of thousands of babies, fer chrissake, and it would be hard to get any worse than that. Yet these people also seem to have a need to believe all sorts of highly implausible additional bad stuff about PP - they support racist eugenics, they help pimps, they encourage sex-selection abortions, etc., etc., and otherwise intelligent people seem to suspend all their critical faculties when someone in the anti-abortion movement comes up with another totally off-the-wall claim. Planned Parenthood volunteers feast on human flesh at their annual awards banquet! Planned Parenthood finances abortion clinics by selling heroin to cute eight-year old kids!! Planned Parenthood sends out paid squads of highly-trained black rapists to impregnate women so they can do more abortions!!

Perhaps the idea is to find, or invent, something Planned Parenthood does that even those who don't object to abortion will find offensive; I don't know. It's silly at best, and at worst completely dishonorable spreading of lies. Look guys, Planned Parenthood is exactly what it appears to be. They provide birth control, sex education, various sorts of women's reproductive health care - and they do abortions. That's a fairly small fraction of what they do, but it's still a lot of abortions. If you think that abortion is equivalent to murdering a baby, than you think they do great evil. There's no need to make ridiculous stuff up to make them seem worse.

Tom Montgomery
06-09-2012, 10:10 PM
Perhaps the idea is to find, or invent, something Planned Parenthood does that even those who don't object to abortion will find offensive....

That is how it appears to me. Those who oppose abortion in all circumstances on religious/moral grounds are simply failing to persuade a majority of Americans. And so they are grasping for an argument that will swing majority opinion to their side.

Bob Cleek
06-09-2012, 11:01 PM
Look guys, Planned Parenthood is exactly what it appears to be. They provide birth control, sex education, various sorts of women's reproductive health care - and they do abortions. That's a fairly small fraction of what they do, but it's still a lot of abortions.

Keith, I got this data from PP's own annual reports. This is the latest data that's been published, as far as I know. I didn't make this stuff up:

Ninety-eight percent of Planned Parenthood’s services to pregnant women (abortion, adoption and prenatal care) are abortions (according to its 2009 report: 332,278 abortions, 7,021 prenatal care clients, and 977 adoption
referrals to other agencies.)Planned Parenthood acknowledges that it provided primary care only to about 19,700 of its 3 million unduplicated clients. (Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Planned Parenthood Services (Feb.2011), p. 2 (reporting on 2009 figures.) Planned Parenthood received 363.2 million dollars of government grants and contracts in Fiscal Year 2008-09 and performed 332,278 abortions in the year ending June, 2009, 27% of all abortions in the U.S. (Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Inc. Annual Report 2008-09, p. 29, and 2008 Income Tax Returns; See Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Planned Parenthood Services, p. 2, supra)

Keith, again, In 2009, "Ninety-eight percent of Planned Parenthood’s services to pregnant women are abortions." They were given $363,200,000 in our tax dollars (yea, that's 363.2 MILLION bucks) in 2009. PP has a capital net worth in excess of a BILLION dollars.

Abortion isn't "a small fraction of what they do," it's 98% of what they do and that percentage figure has been rising steadily over the last few years. In 2009, PP performed 27 percent, more than a quarter, of all the abortions in the US.

PP funds a very slick PR campaign. It has for years. Yes, they do provide other family planning and women's health servcies, but "that's a fairly small fraction of what they do."

I'm not going to try to argue that I have any data that PROVES that PP is "racist" or is consciously motivated by a egenics agenda. There's lots and lots of stuff on line that argues that they do. I'm not going to base my conclusions on the "sting" operations of pro-lifers who have video taped PP staff condoning abortions for the purpose of avoiding giving birth to a girl baby or to their taking money from undercover "donors" who tell them they want the money used to prevent the birth of Black children. All I'm saying is that PP is an abortion industry that makes hundreds of millions of dollars a year, including a lot of our tax money for the purpose of making it cheap and convenient for people, 332,278 in 2009, to be exact, to terminate their pregnancies. An inordinatly disproportionate number of those were the pregnancies of persons of color.

In a civilized Western society, I find those facts abominable. I don't care what PP's intentions may be. I take real issue with what they do, not with what their fundraising propaganda says. I am sure many have "good intentions" and believe that the impact PP has on minority communities is "doing good for others." I am sure they are greatly offended when called eugenicists and racists or when they are accused of goverment funded genocide. But the effect it is having is what it is.

Imagine that an unmarried seventeen year old American coed with no employment history whatsoever got knocked up by a twenty-five year old alcoholic foreign exchange student who isn't particularly interested in making any long term commitment to her whatsoever...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jszkPtsFH-k

I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

ljb5
06-09-2012, 11:12 PM
I'm not going to try to argue that I have any data that PROVES that PP is "racist" or is consciously motivated by a egenics agenda. ..

For a guy who isn't going to argue that PP is racist or motivated by eugenics, you sure argue that a lot.


Research proves that even today, Planned Parenthood overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, directs its service efforts to Black and Hispanic communities. [url]http://www.lifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/LifeDynamicsRacialReport.pdf[/url...

...Racisim and classism is what Planned Parenthood is all about today, just as it was when Sanger founded it.


My beef with PP doesn't have anything to do with birth control. It has to do with their racist eugenic agenda, which they have had since their founding and which, now, they conceal with "spin."

Their efforts are directed to Black and Hispanic women. Not "the poor" in general. Black and Hispanic poor.

Read the statistics.


I'm saying PP has a eugenic agenda today because of what they say and what they do. Look at the statistics.


I'm not going to try to argue that I have any data that PROVES that PP is "racist" or is consciously motivated by a egenics agenda.

Do you not know what you just wrote?

Keith Wilson
06-09-2012, 11:15 PM
Bob, really, you're smarter than that. The vast majority of Planned Parenthood's services are to women who are not pregnant. Only about 3% of what they do is abortions. Pregnant women who want to have a baby don't go to Planned Parenthod; there are hospitals and obstetricians everywhere who handle that.

"There's lots and lots of stuff on line that argues" for every idea imaginable, true, false, or completely insane. You object to abortions. That's OK, although I disagree. But repeating lies is wrong, even in a cause you believe to be good. The claim that Planned Parenthood deliberately tries to reduce the numbers of non-white people by selectively encouraging abortions is a scurrilous lie.

Bob Cleek
06-09-2012, 11:23 PM
That is how it appears to me. Those who oppose abortion in all circumstances on religious/moral grounds are simply failing to persuade a majority of Americans. And so they are grasping for an argument that will swing majority opinion to their side.

Well, that's not how it appears to the Gallup Poll! http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/more-americans-pro-life-than-pro-choice-first-time.aspx

Nor to the Pew Research Center: http://www.people-press.org/2009/10/01/support-for-abortion-slips/

Knock yourself out: http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

I wouldn't bet on the pro-choice horse for a long ride.

SamSam
06-09-2012, 11:26 PM
BS in CAPITAL LETTERS!
Abortion isn't "a small fraction of what they do," it's 98% of what they do and that percentage figure has been rising steadily over the last few years. In 2009, PP performed 27 percent, more than a quarter, of all the abortions in the US. Abortion is 3% of what they do, you posted it yourself in an earlier post! It might be 98% of what they do for pregnant women, but it's only 3% of what they do for all women and men. They just don't offer a lot of services for pregnant women other than abortion, that's what other people do. And those other people also perform almost 3 times the amount of abortions than PP does.

ljb5
06-09-2012, 11:28 PM
Well, that's not how it appears to the Gallup Poll!

A lot of people are persuaded by misinformation.

Indeed, that's why there is a misinformation industry. People get paid to make up lies for you to believe and spread. You're just a pawn in their game of misinformation.... a willing pawn, but a rube.

If you need to lie to persuade people, you're not really winning. You're just making more losers.

Bob Cleek
06-09-2012, 11:50 PM
Bob, really, you're smarter than that. The vast majority of Planned Parenthood's services are to women who are not pregnant. Only about 3% of what they do is abortions. Pregnant women who want to have a baby don't go to Planned Parenthod; there are hospitals and obstetricians everywhere who handle that.

"There's lots and lots of stuff on line that argues" for every idea imaginable, true, false, or completely insane. You object to abortions. That's OK, although I disagree. But repeating lies is wrong, even in a cause you believe to be good. The claim that Planned Parenthood deliberately tries to reduce the numbers of non-white people by selectively encouraging abortions is a scurrilous lie.

You're right, Keith. I was talking statistically about PP's services to pregnant women. I am aware that they provide a lot of other services, or say they do. The statistics I find troubling aren't the number of condoms or birth control pills they hand out, but the number of abortions PP provides... 27% of the total, and growing in recent years.

I looked up PP's' OWN statistical reports on services provided. The latest data I found previously was 2009. THEY said, and I quoted that 98% of the services they provided to PREGNANT women were abortions. That means that of all the pregnant women who went to PP for services, only three percent ended up with services relating to prenatal care and adoptions. That means 98% of the pregnant women who turned to PP for assistance ended up with abortions. 76% of their clients are poor people (again, their fiigures, not mine). I can't reconcile that fact with any conclusion other than that PP promotes abortion over carrying a child to term, intentionally or otherwise. (I don't care about their motives, only the consequences of their actions.) To me, that translates to a disproportionate effect on the birth rate of the poor and people of color (again, see PP's own ethinic breakdowns cited before.) Maybe PP has purged itself of all taint of Sanger's eugenics, but you sure can't see that from PP's effect on ethnic minorities and the poor to this day.

I have found a later report by PP. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA/PP_Services.pdf

There, PP reports that only 3% of their OVERALL services were the 329,445 abortions performed in 2010.

"The core of Planned Parenthood affiliate medical
service is contraception and accompanying health
care, education, and information. In 2010, we
provided 11 million medical services for nearly three
million people, and helped to prevent approximately
584,000 unintended pregnancies. Seventy-six percent
of our clients have incomes at or below 150 percent
of the federal poverty level." http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA/PP_Services.pdf

Do the math: 584,000 unintended pregnancies and 329,445 abortions in 2010. Seventy-six percent of clients below 150 percent of the federal policy level. That's 694,218 poor women's pregnancies that were prevented or terminated by Planned Parenthood. The rate of US multiple births is 32.2 per 1,000, so I come up with 716,572 fewer poor people born in 2010 thanks to PP. If the result does not mirror the aims of eugenicists, who's doing who a favor, anyway?

Think about it. Three million patients and nearly four hundred million dollars in tax money and they "prevented approximately 584,000 unintended pregnancies." I have no idea how they came up with that figure, but do you think we're getting our tax money's worth at that rate? (Actually, they most likely figured out how many pregnancies were prevented by analysis of the decline of birth statistics for their client population, 76% of which are poor.)

If 98% of the pregnant women that turn to PP end up with abortions, just exactly how much of our tax dollars are going to help pregnant women who want to have their babies and just need prenatal care?

Keith Wilson
06-10-2012, 12:05 AM
Bob, what's your point? Many women who go to Planned Parenthood go specifically to avoid becoming pregnant. If a woman who's already pregnant goes to Planned Parenthood, she probably wants an abortion. If she wants to have the baby she goes elsewhere. So? You think abortions are bad. Yes, we knew that already.

I think Planned Parenthood generally does excellent work and is well worth the money. I send them some money of my own from time to time. Maybe I should send them some more; these threads usually inspire me in that direction.

Bob Cleek
06-10-2012, 01:01 AM
The difference between the number of abortions and the number of unintended pregnancies is most likely the number of "morning after" pills they distributed.

Interesting observation which rings true. If so, PP is conveniently defining abortion to make it appear they do fewer than they do. Mediically, anything that terminates a pregnancy, be it knife or pill, or a natural course of events, is an abortion.


I don't think you are getting value for your money. NOt for the reasons that you think but if a lot more money was spent on real sex education in schools then the US wouldn't have the ridiculous unwanted pregnancy issues that it has. That's where you get value for money and then in a strong and far reaching birth control program. With those in place the number of unintended pregnancies drops.

I agree completely.


But all of that is anathema to proponents of the ridiculous views that trap women , especially poor women, in a cycle of unwanted pregnancy and poverty. That is racist, totally racist given the poverty rates among the ethnic minorities in the US.
But the right wing "pro-life" fanatics don't see their hypocrisy in that. Just as they don't see the hypocrisy in the Catholic Church ever commenting about shielding rapists and abusers!

Time to take religious bigotry out of women's health issues. it's not your business!

Again I agree completely. The "Religious Right" is rarely religious or right. I'm not addressing faith-based concerns here. I'm concerned about a federally funded private agency (whose founder, at least, strongly advocated eugenics) having a significant impact on the birth rate of poor and minority people disproportionate to that of the general population.

Bob Cleek
06-10-2012, 01:09 AM
Bob, what's your point? Many women who go to Planned Parenthood go specifically to avoid becoming pregnant. If a woman who's already pregnant goes to Planned Parenthood, she probably wants an abortion. If she wants to have the baby she goes elsewhere. So? You think abortions are bad. Yes, we knew that already.

I think everybody thinks abortions are bad. Nobody's having them unless they feel they have to. I just don't think the government should be susbsizing an NGO that performs 27% of the total done.


I think Planned Parenthood generally does excellent work and is well worth the money. I send them some money of my own from time to time. Maybe I should send them some more; these threads usually inspire me in that direction.

I'd rather see PP funded with your donations than my tax dollars, but in the grand scheme of things, the goverment pisses away a lot more of my taxes on other useless expenditures than they do on PP. Might I suggest, however, that you would find a greater satisfaction in donating your spare change to some agency that helps the living than to one that thinks the solution is preventing them from being born.

ChaseKenyon
06-10-2012, 02:21 AM
So... do you think that White women don't use birth control.... or do you suppose maybe they have access through different channels?

Maybe you should ask your sister or your daughter or some other white woman before you answer. You might be surprised.

In all probability, all the women you know use birth control and few, if any discussed it with you.

It's funny how many men get squeamish in the "feminine products" aisle of the supermarket --- yet feel so strongly about expressing their opinions on birth control. I think you need to get used to the idea that there's a whole world of women's health issues that is largely hidden from you. You don't know who is on birth control, who has had abortions, where White women go for birth control, etc.


Yeah

+42

ChaseKenyon
06-10-2012, 03:44 AM
Maybe you shouldn't have started out with a collection of quotes from Sanger 95 years ago. That kinda created the appearance that you were focusing on Sanger's statements.

I looked at the so-called "statistics" you presented from that propaganda piece.

There are some obvious problems with it: (1) No effort is made to account for the economics of the various zip codes they study. They present the (approximate) ethnic breakdown of the zip code, but without economic information, it is impossible to tell if the clinics are placed there for racial reasons or economic reasons. In economics, it is standard practice to present multiple factors.

(2) There is no consideration of other sources of birth control. As we already discussed, White women do have access to birth control. Perhaps Planned Parenthood places their clinics in minority communities not to target minorities, but rather to bring the availability of services up to (or closer to) what is available to White women. Without even a consideration of this factor, the analysis is garbage.

(3) There's an even more basic problem with the statistics. In any random sampling, you would expect about about half the samples to be above average for one statistic. (This should be self-evident from the definition of "average.") If you're looking at two independent parameters simultaneously (% African American AND % Hispanic), the likelihood that one or the other is above average is nearer to 75%. So when they say, "Texas which has 94 Zip codes with at least one population control facility. Of those, only 22 are not disproportionately black and/or Hispanic".... they're pretty much saying that's exactly what you would expect from random (not racially targeted) selection.

Of course, I cannot say for certain that these two parameters are independent variables..... but I know for damn sure the authors of this "study" made no attempt to even consider that issue.


Also... .since you encouraged me to look at the statistics, I did. Earlier, you suggested that Planned Parenthood directs their services almost exclusively to minorities communities. Even by the statistics you presented, that is clearly not true.

Looking at Colorado, for example, 17 of the 23 clinics are located in zip codes where the percent of minorities is under (and in some cases way under) the state average.

That proves your claim false.

You going to give up now, or keep fighting? You will never, ever, be better at this than I am. And the longer you rely on flimsy propaganda pieces for your information, the worse you will get.

+42 to the tenth power

ElJay please do not get banned again. Not to put any of the extremely well educated and erudite members in a bad light, but I feel like we "get " each other. For the first time on any of my forums, you are the only one I log into and then search for your latest posts.

Out of all the forum members, and in spite of the rocky start we had together:eek: you are the top of the pile of forumites that Iwould like to have regular land or web voice chat interface with. I keep saying, I am not into arguments that have to be won. I am into discussions of topics so that we all can upgrade the group knowledge and or zeitgeist.

ChaseKenyon
06-10-2012, 08:19 AM
Sorry won't work. 92% of Down's syndrome babies are aborted in the US. If that isn't Eugenics, what is?



Absolutely! And you just demolished your argument since people often chose to abort less-than-perfect babies.



Spreading lies is wrong & I won't spread any. Also wrong is aborting Down's syndrome babies and so is genderecide


http://youtu.be/6Fz2KLSxDzc

There it is plain as the nose on your face... Once again the fine young folk at LiveAction have caught Planned Parenthood in the act.

So tell me Keith, given PP's proven collaboration with sex trafficking & underage prostitution, shielding rapists, and now gendercide, what else is it going to take to convince you?

come on here.

That film has less proof of being a legitimate coverage of a PP clinic than the average video production of a 6 th grade project. At that age the vids my son did are more believable than this video. Even his no budget GhostBusters III was more believable.

given PP's proven collaboration with sex trafficking & underage prostitution, shielding rapists, and now gendercide

where is the proof? Certainly not from anything this organization has on their website. There is nothing on their website or the links that even a first year just starting classes lawyer would use as a reference. I doubt that anyone that can even read the LSATs would be sucked in by this obviously half baked video or even the web site.

I can not seriously believe that you have been sucked in by this obviously fake (investigative) video.

Did you check the source?

Did you notice there are not even any shots of a real PP clinic?

No shots that are recognizable of any PP employees?

figgy puding, you can,t really be taken in that easily.

:eek::eek::eek:


just google the org.

Planned Parenthood does not perform an abortion every 96 seconds.

If you go to PPs clinic locator for my zip code it returns 10 clinics.

Only 4 offer abortion services.

The other 6 only have referrals.

This is typical of PP. less than half offer abortions.


if you do the math......
60 sec per minute X 60 minutes per hour = 3600 sec per hour.

and 8 hours a day = 28800

times half of the clinics at 400 = 11520000 potential seconds country wide.

if we divide that by liveaction's every 96 seconds

we get 11520000 / 96 = 120000 claimed abortions per 8 hour day nation wide .

So if we divide the 120000 ABD by the 400 clinics

we get 120000 / 400 = 300 abortions per abortion giving clinic per 8 hour day. At one every 96 seconds

Now we have to consider that the time for such procedure is in the working 8 hr day.

so.... the 300 abortions per day have to occur in only 8 hours of work time for each clinic.

300 / 8 = 37.5 abortions per hour.

I doubt that there is any hospital or clinic in the whole world that can or does 37.5 abortions per hour.

I've been up for 32 hours so someone check the math here.

In any case live action's posts and claims all are at this ludicrously far fetched level. cuuugh cuuugh (furball)!

Keith Wilson
06-10-2012, 10:33 AM
. . . whose founder, at least, strongly advocated eugenics . . . Bob, will you please give it a rest? Most of the founders of the United States supported slavery. Both slavery in 1789 and eugenics in 1920 were mainstream political positions, whatever we think of them now. Shouting back across the years to tell our ancestors the errors of their ways is the most futile endeavor in which a man can engage.

Planned Parenthood does not advocate eugenics, and bringing it up over and over again when there's no credible evidence to support the charge is not honorable.


I think everybody thinks abortions are bad. Nobody's having them unless they feel they have to. An abortion, at best, is the least bad alternative. No one in their right mind would argue that every woman should have several because they're so great. But prohibiting them by law would be wrong. Working so that they're mostly unnecessary is a very good idea. This is most of what Planned Parenthood does.


I just don't think the government should be susbsizing an NGO that performs 27% of the total done.But Bob, most of what Planned Parenthood does is sex ed and birth control - precisely what reduces the need for abortions, as you make very clear in #75. And it does indeed 'help the living'; unless you think providing young women with the means to control their own fertility is not help. Best ask them.

But as I've said, objecting to legal abortion is perfectly legitimate, although I disagree. Objecting to tax funding of Planned Parenthood is perfectly legitimate, although I disagree. But spreading lies about "collaboration with sex trafficking & underage prostitution, shielding rapists, and now gendercide" is just wrong.

John Smith
06-10-2012, 12:29 PM
Could we not just as accurately and more charitably say that Planned Parenthood directs its sevices largely at poor neighborhoods? Why is that nefarious?

I agree that Margaret Sanger held some ugly opinions and attitudes. So did Henry Ford. I'll bet his mug has appeared on a postage stamp.

I"m not sure why it is anyone's business what services Planned Parenthood renders unto a client/patient other than those actually involved.

As to abortion, not all preganancies are wanted. Once one accepts that as fact, then the fact is the woman has three options, and none of them are necessarily good options, but they are the only three she has.

As to contraception, whatever medication a doctor prescribes for a patient is their business, not mine.

John Smith
06-10-2012, 12:32 PM
Phillip Allen: ljb5 did not say VW had no connection to Hitler.

ljb5 posted, "The modern Planned Parenthood has no more relation to her [Sanger] than Volkswagen has to Hitler." That has a different meaning.

If you want to mix it up with adults you need to elevate your game.

Or, one might say, as much of a relation as today's Republican Party has to Reagan's Republican Party.