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Paul Pless
06-08-2012, 07:12 AM
I'm not alone!:D


More Americans now call themselves politically independent than at any time in the last 75 years, according to a new poll that shows Republicans and Democrats are more polarized than they've been in a generation.

Americans of voting age self identify as follows:

38% Independent
32% Democrat
24% Republican

elf
06-08-2012, 07:43 AM
I've never registered to a party in all the 50 years I've been voting.

Keith Wilson
06-08-2012, 07:46 AM
People like to think of themselves as independent; it's a nice concept. But if one looks a little deeper, quite a large fraction of those who identify themselves as "Independent" pretty reliably vote for one party.

Paul Pless
06-08-2012, 07:48 AM
Might you be referring to Emily?:d

skuthorp
06-08-2012, 07:50 AM
People like to think of themselves as independent; it's a nice concept. But if one looks a little deeper, quite large fraction of those who identify themselves as "Independent" pretty reliably vote for one party.
Yes, it assuages their conscience when they get to the poll and have no idea of what policies they are voting for.

Concordia 33
06-08-2012, 09:07 AM
I'm not alone!:D



Americans of voting age self identify as follows:

38% Independent
32% Democrat
24% Republican

I have been an Independent for most of my adult life though I vote most often for the Democrat. As the Democratic Party platform has become more extreme I have found myself voting more often for the Republican

Paul Pless
06-08-2012, 09:09 AM
Yes, it assuages their conscience when they get to the poll and have no idea of what policies they are voting for.

Wait! Unlike some 'more sophisticated' nations;) we are under no legal compulsion to vote. . .

TomF
06-08-2012, 09:14 AM
I have been an Independent for most of my adult life though I vote most often for the Democrat. As the Democratic Party platform has become more extreme I have found myself voting more often for the RepublicanI'm bogswiffled. The last decade of American politics has left you feeling that the Democratic party platform has become more extreme?

Reflect for a few moments on the Republicans who vied for the party nomination, and the rise of the Tea Party. These are moderates, in comparison with the Democrat platform?

Cuyahoga Chuck
06-08-2012, 09:40 AM
I have been an Independent for most of my adult life though I vote most often for the Democrat. As the Democratic Party platform has become more extreme I have found myself voting more often for the Republican

Boy, that's a concept I wanna' explore!
Have the Dems got anything close to "our first order of business is to make certain Barack Obama is a one term president"?
Or Grover Norquist's "I swear on my mother's life I will NEVER vote for any new taxes even if the republic collapses"?
Or "death panels"?
Or "you can't have an abortion but you can keep and bear a machinegun and as many banana clips as you can afford"?
Or, "the USA is the richest, most powerful country that has ever existed but we are going to starve it's government till it's looks and acts like the TEXAS Schoolbook Commission"?
Having been born a long long time ago I can assure you incurring more and more right-wing views is a natural result of aging. It's not rational but affects us all just like wrinkles and receding gums.

B_B
06-08-2012, 09:43 AM
I'm bogswiffled. The last decade of American politics has left you feeling that the Democratic party platform has become more extreme?

Reflect for a few moments on the Republicans who vied for the party nomination, and the rise of the Tea Party. These are moderates, in comparison with the Democrat platform?I
It's an assertion he's made a couple times before, and each time people trot out empirical evidence to show him how wrong he is. But he's independent minded enough not to bother with evidence (what's that lovely turn of phrase you had for that pseudo-scientist in the other thread? ;) )

Joe Dupere
06-08-2012, 09:47 AM
I have been an Independent for most of my adult life though I vote most often for the Democrat. As the Democratic Party platform has become more extreme I have found myself voting more often for the Republican

That's ironic. It happened the opposite way for me. I used to vote most often for the Republican, but as the Republican Party platform has become more extreme, I have found myself voting more often for the Democrat.

Paul Pless
06-08-2012, 09:51 AM
That's ironic. It happened the opposite way for me. I used to vote most often for the Republican, but as the Republican Party platform has become more extreme, I have found myself voting more often for the Democrat.Same here. I think this trend also accounts for why those that identify as independent has swelled by twenty percent in the last four years. . .

wardd
06-08-2012, 10:15 AM
People like to think of themselves as independent; it's a nice concept. But if one looks a little deeper, quite large fraction of those who identify themselves as "Independent" pretty reliably vote for one party.

yes

leikec
06-08-2012, 10:26 AM
People like to think of themselves as independent; it's a nice concept. But if one looks a little deeper, quite large fraction of those who identify themselves as "Independent" pretty reliably vote for one party.

Very true. I've never identified as a democrat, but I generally vote that way. I did vote for George H.W. Bush, and I worked for a republican congressional candidate the one time I worked for a political campaign (my mother would barely speak to me for months over that one!).

Jeff C

bobbys
06-08-2012, 10:34 AM
I notice if i say im a Independent hard line Democrats and Republicans get more pizzed then if you just said your a different party then they are...

John Smith
06-08-2012, 11:17 AM
I'm bogswiffled. The last decade of American politics has left you feeling that the Democratic party platform has become more extreme?

Reflect for a few moments on the Republicans who vied for the party nomination, and the rise of the Tea Party. These are moderates, in comparison with the Democrat platform?

He has to be pulling our legs. Nothing extreme about today's republican party?

BETTY-B
06-08-2012, 02:21 PM
He has to be pulling our legs.

I'd call it more than pulling legs, but there's already another thread going on the subject.

John of Phoenix
06-08-2012, 02:43 PM
Same here. I think this trend also accounts for why those that identify as independent has swelled by twenty percent in the last four years. . . At the expense of which party?

John of Phoenix
06-08-2012, 02:43 PM
He has to be pulling our legs. Nothing extreme about today's republican party?"We create our own reality."

wardd
06-08-2012, 03:07 PM
"We create our own reality."

the bush admin?

Mrleft8
06-08-2012, 03:21 PM
I
It's an assertion he's made a couple times before, and each time people trot out empirical evidence to show him how wrong he is. But he's independent minded enough not to bother with evidence (what's that lovely turn of phrase you had for that pseudo-scientist in the other thread? ;) )


He has to be pulling our legs. Nothing extreme about today's republican party?

"He" is a she, at least 50% of the time.....

Paul Pless
06-08-2012, 03:35 PM
"He" is a she, at least 50% of the time.....a bunch of folks probably don't get that. . .

B_B
06-08-2012, 03:53 PM
a bunch of folks probably don't get that. . .
Might explain why I've always thought 'it' was slightly schizophrenic.

McMike
06-08-2012, 03:55 PM
Might explain why I've always thought 'it' was slightly schizophrenic.

It all seems clear now . . . :o

wardd
06-08-2012, 04:03 PM
It all seems clear now . . . :o

the voices have a way of explaining things

johnw
06-08-2012, 07:46 PM
Very true. I've never identified as a democrat, but I generally vote that way. I did vote for George H.W. Bush, and I worked for a republican congressional candidate the one time I worked for a political campaign (my mother would barely speak to me for months over that one!).

Jeff C

I think the meaning of considering ones self a member of a party has changed. When there were liberal Republicans and conservative Democrats, belonging to a party was not an indication of a closed mind. Now, people choose to call themselves independents because the parties are more partisan, and to call ones self an independent makes people feel they don't have to defend the stupidity of either side.

Personally, I've always voted a split ticket, although fewer and fewer Republicans meet my standards for pragmatism and a willingness to solve problems even if it doesn't benefit their party. This is a disappointment, because I always want an alternative to what one party offers. Sometimes, I don't vote in a race because neither party has provided a candidate I care to endorse. I leave that part of the ballot blank, and vote in the races where there is a viable candidate.

Yeadon
06-08-2012, 08:14 PM
Let's just make this clear, once and for all. I'm Independent. Also, I don't vote for Republicans.

johnw
06-08-2012, 08:55 PM
Let's just make this clear, once and for all. I'm Independent. Also, I don't vote for Republicans.

So, you split your ticket between the Socialist, Libertarian, and Goodspaceguy (http://vote.wa.gov/Elections/VotersGuide/Statement.aspx?c=9ba97701-3a27-4582-a3fc-42f1d7315287) parties?

Yeadon
06-08-2012, 08:59 PM
http://vote.wa.gov/images/candidate_photos/1111NEL.jpg

Inconceivable!

Keith Wilson
06-08-2012, 09:00 PM
As the Democratic Party platform has become more extreme I have found myself voting more often for the RepublicanI would challence you to do someting. Look at the actual policies advocated by Republicans over the past, say, 30 years. You could pick presidential candidates, or the speaker/minority leader of the House, or any more or less constant measure. Write down the major policy points. Compare them over time. Then, if you have patience, do the same for the Democrats. I'm 100% certain will find that the Republican policies have shifted far, far to the right, while the Democrats have moved very little- maybe a but to the right as well, actually. Now you can vote for whoever you like, but I think what has really happened is that you've moved to the right. That's OK; you're entitled to your opinions, but it's inaccurate to blame the Democrats.

One example - the idea of the individual mandate to purchase heath insurance (AKA the end of all freedom and the beginning of tyranny) was an idea originally invented by the Heritage Foundation as a free-market alternative to Clinton's single payer proposals. Most Republicans favored it until Obama did too.

johnw
06-08-2012, 09:11 PM
http://vote.wa.gov/images/candidate_photos/1111NEL.jpg

Inconceivable!

I'd still rather vote for the real Wally Shawn.

Paul Pless
06-08-2012, 09:12 PM
[COLOR=#333333]I'm 100% certain will find that the Republican policies have shifted far, far to the right, while the Democrats have moved very little- maybe a but to the right as well, actually.That's the problem with the modern Democratic Party. They've gotten so gun shy of the Tea Party and other deficit hawk types that they've forgotten that there are some things that the government actually does well. They seem afraid to even bring this up these days in their effort to welcome as many former Republicans into their 'big tent' party. . .

johnw
06-08-2012, 09:17 PM
[COLOR=#333333] I would challence you to do someting. Look at the actual policies advocated by Republicans over the past, say, 30 years. You could pick presidential candidates, or the speaker/minority leader of the House, or any more or less constant measure. Write down the major policy points. Compare them over time. Then, if you have patience, do the same for the Democrats. I'm 100% certain will find that the Republican policies have shifted far, far to the right, while the Democrats have moved very little- maybe a but to the right as well, actually. Now you can vote for whoever you like, but I think what has really happened is that you've moved to the right. That's OK; you're entitled to your opinions, but it's inaccurate to blame the Democrats.

One example - the idea of the individual mandate to purchase heath insurance (AKA the end of all freedom and the beginning of tyranny) was an idea originally invented by the Heritage Foundation as a free-market alternative to Clinton's single payer proposals. Most Republicans favored it until Obama did too.

Nope. Hillarycare was a version of the Republican plan as well. From Wikipedia:


The Clinton health plan required each US citizen and permanent resident alien to become enrolled in a qualified health plan and forbade their disenrollment until covered by another plan. It listed minimum coverages and maximum annual out-of-pocket expenses for each plan. It proposed the establishment of corporate "regional alliances" of health providers to be subject to a fee-for-service schedule. People below a certain set income level were to pay nothing. The act listed funding to be sent to the states for the administration of this plan, beginning at $13.5 billion in 1993 and reaching $38.3 billion in 2003.

It would have been more expensive than Obamacare, but the solutions proposed by the Democrats since the '90s have been versions of the Republican plan. They've been opposed not because of their provisions, but because the Republicans either didn't want the problem solved, or didn't want it solved by a Democrat.

Clinton did such a lousy job of selling Hillarycare that almost no one actually knew how it would have worked.

SamSam
06-08-2012, 09:18 PM
.

Don't forget this one...

http://www.rentistoodamnhigh.org/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/rent_to_print_new_3.jpg.w560h248.jpg

Garret
06-08-2012, 10:46 PM
the voices have a way of explaining things

And sometimes they have really good ideas.

re: C33's post: Seems to me that the Democratic Party has moved right a bit, while the Republican Party has moved WAY right.

My dad was a county Republican Party chair in the 60's. By the Reagan era, he said his party had moved away from him & from then on voted Dem. I've always been independent - but more likely to vote Dem.

Any chance C33'd like to go into his/her statement a bit deeper? As in how the Dems have become more extreme? In particular - if the Dems are more extreme - what are the present day Republicans? These are genuine questions.

Captain Intrepid
06-08-2012, 11:58 PM
Your coat, it's kind of a brownish colour...


I'm not alone!:D



Americans of voting age self identify as follows:

38% Independent
32% Democrat
24% Republican

2MeterTroll
06-09-2012, 09:36 AM
I'll vote for the good space guy. he's got his head on right.

Gerarddm
06-09-2012, 10:06 AM
A true independent would spend too much time weeping in frustration. ;-)

George Jung
06-09-2012, 10:41 AM
Hopefully Concordia33 is pulling our collective chains.... but notable, a lack of a further disclaimer or substantiation of that claim! Does that come under the heading of True Believer?

I used to favor the Republicans in the elections, but they've gotten so wacked, I just can't do it any longer. Forced me to re-evaluate my own TB status - and that's what it was - and pay a lot more attention to 'the facts', what was actually being proposed, what was actually stood for. I'm a registered Dem, only because to do otherwise eliminates the option of voting in a primary - and try to put the partisanship aside, and choose the best candidate. I find it difficult to dig up enough info to 'know' what some folks positions actually are, and am a bit disheartened to see most voters don't bother; they just 'go with their gut'. I'd bet most of them spend more time choosing pizza topping than looking at platforms.

In any event, the Reps ruined it this last go-round with their willingness to flush the US economy down the crapper, with their single-minded goal of getting rid of Obama. Bastids. I'm sick of 'em right now. I'm also sick of the Corporations buying elections, and hope that bit of crap legislation can be corrected. Letters to the editors, shining the news spotlight on it, what ever it takes. Do your part.

johnw
06-09-2012, 03:27 PM
Hopefully Concordia33 is pulling our collective chains.... but notable, a lack of a further disclaimer or substantiation of that claim! Does that come under the heading of True Believer?

I used to favor the Republicans in the elections, but they've gotten so wacked, I just can't do it any longer. Forced me to re-evaluate my own TB status - and that's what it was - and pay a lot more attention to 'the facts', what was actually being proposed, what was actually stood for. I'm a registered Dem, only because to do otherwise eliminates the option of voting in a primary - and try to put the partisanship aside, and choose the best candidate. I find it difficult to dig up enough info to 'know' what some folks positions actually are, and am a bit disheartened to see most voters don't bother; they just 'go with their gut'. I'd bet most of them spend more time choosing pizza topping than looking at platforms.

In any event, the Reps ruined it this last go-round with their willingness to flush the US economy down the crapper, with their single-minded goal of getting rid of Obama. Bastids. I'm sick of 'em right now. I'm also sick of the Corporations buying elections, and hope that bit of crap legislation can be corrected. Letters to the editors, shining the news spotlight on it, what ever it takes. Do your part.

I like our "jungle primary" system. Everybody in the same primary, and the top two go on to duke it out in the general regardless of party. In districts that are dominated by one party, that means you still get a choice in the general election.

The founding fathers worried about "faction," and what else would you call our current parties? Why should the electoral system be built around parties, when they were not envisioned in the constitution?

2MeterTroll
06-09-2012, 06:09 PM
naaa eventually the rock breaks and the tears do no good. so you do the best you can with what the elections offer. I dont vote simply platforms; I try to vote for who can do the job best.
course this means i get hammered by the repubs and dems i know for "wasting" my vote.



A true independent would spend too much time weeping in frustration. ;-)

Paul Pless
06-09-2012, 06:32 PM
I dont vote simply platforms; I try to vote for who can do the job best.
course this means i get hammered by the repubs and dems i know for "wasting" my vote.

So you're voting for Jill Stein too, eh?

PeterSibley
06-09-2012, 06:36 PM
Boy, that's a concept I wanna' explore!
Have the Dems got anything close to "our first order of business is to make certain Barack Obama is a one term president"?
Or Grover Norquist's "I swear on my mother's life I will NEVER vote for any new taxes even if the republic collapses"?
Or "death panels"?
Or "you can't have an abortion but you can keep and bear a machinegun and as many banana clips as you can afford"?
Or, "the USA is the richest, most powerful country that has ever existed but we are going to starve it's government till it's looks and acts like the TEXAS Schoolbook Commission"?
Having been born a long long time ago I can assure you incurring more and more right-wing views is a natural result of aging. It's not rational but affects us all just like wrinkles and receding gums.

Not in my case, I've become more "liberal"and involved in green issues.

Paul Pless
06-09-2012, 06:41 PM
Not in my case, I've become more "liberal"and involved in green issues.

Me too. although I've always been quite green so my shift left has been towards addressing issues of social inequality. But I have to tell you, I think its this goddamned pinko commie forum that's doing it to me!;)

johnw
06-09-2012, 06:50 PM
Norm's mission is a success! Welcome his world, comrade.

brad9798
06-09-2012, 07:23 PM
Nearly 38% of voters are liars ... :D

Garret
06-09-2012, 09:49 PM
Nearly 38% of voters are liars ... :D

& 10 out of 9 people have trouble with statistics...... ;)

Joe Dupere
06-09-2012, 09:57 PM
Me too. although I've always been quite green so my shift left has been towards addressing issues of social inequality. But I have to tell you, I think its this goddamned pinko commie forum that's doing it to me!;)

Yeah, that's what happened to me. I often think if I could just stop reading the Bilge, I could go back to how I used to be, but there's just too much to challenge my old ways of thinking here...

Garret
06-09-2012, 10:15 PM
Yeah, that's what happened to me. I often think if I could just stop reading the Bilge, I could go back to how I used to be, but there's just too much to challenge my old ways of thinking here...

Care to elaborate Joe? Is that a good thing? The right/left battles don't get too wearing?

wardd
06-09-2012, 10:29 PM
voting for the most qualified candidate is not always the best strategy

johnw
06-09-2012, 10:31 PM
voting for the most qualified candidate is not always the best strategy

James Buchanan was the president with the best resume, and he's widely regarded by historians as our worst president.

wardd
06-10-2012, 06:51 PM
James Buchanan was the president with the best resume, and he's widely regarded by historians as our worst president.

my meaning is if by voting for him you bring the party to power that is against your best interests it would be better to vote for the other guy

Joe Dupere
06-10-2012, 07:27 PM
Care to elaborate Joe? Is that a good thing? The right/left battles don't get too wearing?

I used to be a conservative, and never really thought much about it, and pretty much always voted Republican. Somewhere along the line, probably before I actually started reading the WBF, (way back in the days of the old Kingdom of Miscellaneous), I started to question what I believed about politics and religion and culture. There was a growing disconnect between what I was hearing from conservative leaders (political and religious), and what I was seeing them do. When the disconnect got too great, I had to separate myself from the conservative movement. Actually, I didn't really leave so much as I got the left foot of fellowship from them. It started in 1991 or thereabouts when the conservatives said me and my kids were not a 'real family' because we didn't have a mother in the picture. Then I wasn't even a real Republican any more, just a RINO. And before I knew it, Sarah Palin was saying that I wasn't even a 'real American'. I ain't the sharpest tool in the kit, but even I can tell when I'm not wanted. So, I left.

I have found the Bilge to be a really interesting place with a lot of different viewpoints. I read a lot of the political and religious threads, but don't tend to comment on them all that often. But I almost always learn something, and often get a lead on a different way of thinking about things. So, all in all, the Bilge has been a valuable experience for me.

johnw
06-10-2012, 07:42 PM
my meaning is if by voting for him you bring the party to power that is against your best interests it would be better to vote for the other guy

And my meaning is that James Buchanan is an excellent example of this.

Garret
06-10-2012, 08:49 PM
I used to be a conservative, and never really thought much about it, and pretty much always voted Republican. Somewhere along the line, probably before I actually started reading the WBF, (way back in the days of the old Kingdom of Miscellaneous), I started to question what I believed about politics and religion and culture. There was a growing disconnect between what I was hearing from conservative leaders (political and religious), and what I was seeing them do. When the disconnect got too great, I had to separate myself from the conservative movement. Actually, I didn't really leave so much as I got the left foot of fellowship from them. It started in 1991 or thereabouts when the conservatives said me and my kids were not a 'real family' because we didn't have a mother in the picture. Then I wasn't even a real Republican any more, just a RINO. And before I knew it, Sarah Palin was saying that I wasn't even a 'real American'. I ain't the sharpest tool in the kit, but even I can tell when I'm not wanted. So, I left.

I have found the Bilge to be a really interesting place with a lot of different viewpoints. I read a lot of the political and religious threads, but don't tend to comment on them all that often. But I almost always learn something, and often get a lead on a different way of thinking about things. So, all in all, the Bilge has been a valuable experience for me.

Thank you sir.

There are some very bright folks here that give me a great deal to think about.

BTW - any man who takes responsibility for his kids is a real man & the head of (or if you have teenagers, at least part of;)) his family. Period, end of discussion. If I may wax political for a moment, it amazes me that the "party of family values" could consider someone like Newt Gingrich - especially when any Republican is running against a postcard American family.

Kevin T
06-11-2012, 04:57 PM
Bump!
C33, real curious to see a response to the question posed to you further back in the thread on party movement.