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View Full Version : Looks like its all Walker all the way eh. . .



Paul Pless
06-01-2012, 09:56 AM
National implications?

Concordia 33
06-01-2012, 10:05 AM
Hard to say. It won't benefit President Obama, but it may not hurt him either. Interestingly, MoveOn.org has a cash flow problem and has had to decide which pet projects to fund, and which to let wither on the vine - they have pulled their financial support in Wisconsin, and also for Elizabeth Warren in Mass. I guess they can't afford to take a shot at probable loosing projects.

ccmanuals
06-01-2012, 10:06 AM
Didn't know the vote happened. Must have missed it.

Concordia 33
06-01-2012, 10:09 AM
Didn't know the vote happened. Must have missed it.

It's this Tuesday, but Walker is running 7 points ahead. It would be a pretty big upset at this point.

S.V. Airlie
06-01-2012, 10:11 AM
June 5th actually. I'm looking for the spin when, not if, Walker wins. That should be interesting.

John Smith
06-01-2012, 11:08 AM
My bigger question is is why Obama isn't "marching" with the people of Wisconsin. Clinton (Bill) is going. Polls seem to be tightening, but Obama will have a better chance of winning the state in November if he shows up now, and it pisses me off that the appears not to be chiming in here.

Paul Pless
06-01-2012, 11:10 AM
My bigger question is is why Obama isn't "marching" with the people of Wisconsin. Isn't it obvious that he doesn't want to be associated with a loser?

S.V. Airlie
06-01-2012, 11:12 AM
John, do you really expect him to?

ccmanuals
06-01-2012, 11:13 AM
June 5th actually. I'm looking for the spin when, not if, Walker wins. That should be interesting.


you don't expect spin if he loses?

Gerarddm
06-01-2012, 11:15 AM
There will be spin either way.

Wisconsin seems schizoid- they can have a Russ Feingold for years, then do a Walker?

I dunno, they did McCarthy, why should I be surprised?

S.V. Airlie
06-01-2012, 11:20 AM
you don't expect spin if he loses?Not as much as from the libs. They will have to nail their boots on the floor to keep from spinning. I anticipate at least 6 threads about the outcome from the libs and maybe just one from the reps.

David G
06-01-2012, 12:09 PM
Walker's over the top approach to governance needed to be brought up short. Maybe the mere fact of generating enough vehement opposition to fuel a recall election will give him pause. Maybe nothing less will do than his removal from office. Either was would be fine with me - but a repeat of his earlier approach would be dismaying.

Tall Boy
06-01-2012, 12:26 PM
Well that's certainly screwed up. Taxes are down, unemployment is down, business rating is up, deficit going away. God...that guy wins, more of the same..........

Concordia 33
06-01-2012, 12:28 PM
Well that's certainly screwed up. Taxes are down, unemployment is down, Business rating is up, deficit going away. God...that guy wins more of the same..........

I believe he erased a deficit of well over 2 billion dollars too.

David G
06-01-2012, 01:38 PM
Well that's certainly screwed up. Taxes are down, unemployment is down, business rating is up, deficit going away. God...that guy wins, more of the same..........

Any group human endeavor - when viewed from a group process standpoint - can be broken down into two primary components: content; process.

I'm gonna assume that everything you say is absolutly, completely accurate about his progress addressing some of the states problems. Let's take that as a given, until someone more knowledgeable comes along to contest it.

That's the 'content' piece. What will actually be done. What programs cut and boosted. What policies changed or new policies instituted. What exact budgets allotted. Your description makes his results so far sound good.

But... it's not that simple. It has been proven many times over - in businesses, NGO's, governments at all level, and non-profits - that one can have some absolutely brilliant ideas and policies. But if one pays no attention to the 'process' side of the equation during the discussion and impletmentation stages, the 'content' side is - if not doomed, at least destined to be crippled. When even the best, most creative, most beautifully crafted policies are implemented via methods that are viewed as disrespectful, heavy-handed, railroading, bullying, overly manipulative, etc. then early success can be followed by blowback and stalling.

ljb5
06-01-2012, 01:43 PM
I believe he erased a deficit of well over 2 billion dollars too.

Not exactly. A lot of that was accomplished by blurring the distinction between cash accounting and accrual accounting.

Walker campaigned on the idea that he would use GAAP accounting... then reversed himself, using cash accounting, to claim he fixed the deficit.

"The cash accounting method allows the state to use maneuvers to bring the budget into balance, such as pushing current liabilities into future budgets or counting anticipated revenue before it materializes."

Shifting liabilities and revenue from one year to another doesn't really fix the deficit.

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2012/jan/29/scott-walker/gov-scott-walker-says-he-eliminated-wisconsins-36-/

Concordia 33
06-01-2012, 01:49 PM
I don't think so. There might have been a very slight national effect: the notion that a GOP governor who moves too far to the extreme right might face some political pushback is one aspect.... which, if anything, might have been a tiny bit encouraging for the left.

Obama can't make any gains on this.... it's a lousy political bet, which is why he's largely staying out of it. If Walker wins, then the fact that he was nearly recalled is of a tiny bit of benefit to the cause of the Dems.... if Walker loses, then the Dems MIGHT get a tiny bit of lift.... I don't see how the GOP benefits, since the story is that they will have barely beaten back a recall, which doesn't reflect well on Republican governance... but the overall effect will be minor, I think, either way.

I think that if the recall ended up prevailing (which it probably won't) it would benefit President Obama. Right now, most of the money and national Democratic figures are starting to distance them from it.

Paul Pless
06-01-2012, 01:52 PM
Obama can't make any gains on this.... it's a lousy political bet, which is why he's largely staying out of it. If Walker wins, then the fact that he was nearly recalled is of a tiny bit of benefit to the cause of the Dems.... if Walker loses, then the Dems MIGHT get a tiny bit of lift.... I don't see how the GOP benefits, since the story is that they will have barely beaten back a recall, which doesn't reflect well on Republican governance... but the overall effect will be minor, I think, either way.Nice bit of spin here.:D

As of right now, it doesn't look close to a 'barely beaten back' a recall situation.

ccmanuals
06-01-2012, 01:53 PM
Certainly Walker may not be recalled BUT there are also 4 gop senate seats up for recall the same day and the loss of one of those seats will shift power in the senate. just sayin.

RodSBT
06-01-2012, 01:57 PM
Any group human endeavor - when viewed from a group process standpoint - can be broken down into two primary components: content; process.

I'm gonna assume that everything you say is absolutly, completely accurate about his progress addressing some of the states problems. Let's take that as a given, until someone more knowledgeable comes along to contest it.

That's the 'content' piece. What will actually be done. What programs cut and boosted. What policies changed or new policies instituted. What exact budgets allotted. Your description makes his results so far sound good.




But... it's not that simple. It has been proven many times over - in businesses, NGO's, governments at all level, and non-profits - that one can have some absolutely brilliant ideas and policies. But if one pays no attention to the 'process' side of the equation during the discussion and impletmentation stages, the 'content' side is - if not doomed, at least destined to be crippled. When even the best, most creative, most beautifully crafted policies are implemented via methods that are viewed as disrespectful, heavy-handed, railroading, bullying, overly manipulative, etc. then early success can be followed by blowback and stalling.


You're right David, what matters most is who cares more.

Paul Pless
06-01-2012, 01:59 PM
which says something that is more than a little significant.I agree. I for one, and I know my opinion is not universal, find the recall option for political purposes to be a bad thing in practice. The threshold is so low as far as numbers needed in a petition to force a recall as to laughable and the cost to the state is outstanding; and for what purpose. In my mind, the guy won, if he hasn't done anything illegal, unethical, or immoral he ought to have been allowed to serve out his term as governor.

John of Phoenix
06-01-2012, 01:59 PM
Norman:
I don't see how the GOP benefits, since the story is that they will have barely beaten back a recall, which doesn't reflect well on Republican governance... And did it with how many millions of Koch brothers' money?

Tall Boy
06-01-2012, 02:01 PM
Whether it is 'barely' beaten back, or beaten back by a respectable margin, you can't spin the fact that there was enough sentiment to force a recall election in the first place... which says something that is more than a little significant.

Yep, I wonder how many Micky Mouses, Donald Ducks and Truman Cappotes were on the petition

ccmanuals
06-01-2012, 02:06 PM
Wonder what the Koch brothers will want in return for their 10 million dollar investment in Walker's recall?


Americans for Prosperity Board of Directors Chairman David Koch, perhaps feeling a little loose lipped from a wine buzz, admitted to a Palm Beach Post (http://www.palmbeachpost.com/money/david-koch-intends-to-cure-cancer-in-his-2185046.html) reporter on February 20, 2012 that “We’ve spent a lot of money in Wisconsin. We’re going to spend more.”

I would disagree also with Paul regarding recalls. I would equate it to a "peoples impeachment" process.

John of Phoenix
06-01-2012, 02:06 PM
About the signatures on the petitions... you're holding another piss poor hand. The recall petition was successful.

Concordia 33
06-01-2012, 02:09 PM
Whether it is 'barely' beaten back, or beaten back by a respectable margin, you can't spin the fact that there was enough sentiment to force a recall election in the first place... which says something that is more than a little significant.

You also can't spin the fact that bus loads of out of state union operatives couldn't overwhelm the will of the voters. They made a full court press, and the best they could do was a failed recall attempt. It weakens their strength in supporting President Obama's campaign. It makes the unions look impotent conversely their ability to unseat Walker would have given them much greater clout elsewhere. They couldn't even get their preferred candidate on the ballot to oppose Walker in the recall.


The state's second-largest union, American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, had membership fall to 28,745 in February from 62,818 in March 2011, the Journal said Thursday. The organization's Afscme Council 24, composed on state workers, fell more than two-thirds to 7,100 from 22,300 last year.

ccmanuals
06-01-2012, 02:11 PM
You also can't spin the fact that bus loads of out of state union operatives couldn't overwhelm the will of the voters. They made a full court press, and the best they could do was a failed recall attempt. It weaken's their strength in supporting President Obama's campaign. It makes the unions look impotent conversely their ability to unseat Walker would have given them much greater clout elsewhere. They couldn't even get their preferred candidate in to oppose Walker in the recall.


your right. this recall boils down to people power versus money power.

Tall Boy
06-01-2012, 02:35 PM
About the signatures on the petitions... you're holding another piss poor hand. The recall petition was successful.

Look me up when the recall is over, then we'll talk.

Concordia 33
06-01-2012, 02:36 PM
I don't know what the required number of signatures were... but this line points out the dilemma.

There's a process to get rid of a governor who does something illegal.... it's called 'impeachment', and it's a political process.

What is the process to get rid of a governor who does something immoral and/or unethical? We don't have a uniform set of standards for that.... so the recall process is the only way.

Perhpas Walker will win by more than a small percentage.... if so, then the process worked; not enough people considered his behavior in office to be either immoral or unethical.

However, we don't see successful recall petitions very often... the fact that it DID result in a recall election demonstrates something which is less than trivial. You can't exactly boast that 'I survived a recall election', as a demonstration of your success as governor, can you?



Here's what the lamestream media has to say about it.



(CBS News) In less than a week, voters in Wisconsin decide if they want to keep their Republican governor, Scott Walker, who has been at the forefront of controversial policies that have divided Democrats and Republicans in the state and nationally. But the outcome of the recall election against Democratic challenger Tom Barrett, Milwaukee's mayor, could have much broader implications for the presidential race in November."The Wisconsin recall is what the Spanish Civil War was to World War II," Mordecai Lee, a governmental affairs professor at the University of Wisconsin in Milwaukee, told Hotsheet. Lee said the state is "a warm up, a testing ground" for the presidential race.Once again a battlegroundAlthough Wisconsin has voted for the Democratic presidential candidate in every election since 1984, the state is considered a key battleground this year. President Obama beat Republican John McCain by 13 percent in 2008, but Republicans made massive inroads in 2010, winning the governorship and taking control of the state legislature. In addition, Tea Party-backed Ron Johnson defeated incumbent Democratic Sen. Russ Feingold, a favorite of progressives."This state is up for grabs in the recall election and it's up for grabs this fall," said Mike McCabe, Executive Director of the nonpartisan Wisconsin Democracy Campaign, which tracks political spending in elections.Walker has drawn ire from the left, especially unions, over the bill he signed to curtail collective bargaining rights for public sector workers, which caused weeks of protests in the state last year and boycotts by Democratic lawmakers. The unions and activists collected around one million signatures to bring about the recall, which is nearly half the number of voters who turned out (http://gab.wi.gov/sites/default/files/page/partisan_voter_turnout_1948_2010_pdf_36073.pdf) to vote in 2010.
The most recent poll, released Wednesday afternoon by Marquette Law School (https://law.marquette.edu/poll/), says Walker is leading Barrett 52 percent to 45 percent among likely voters. His six point advantage is the same as it was in the Marquette Law School poll released two weeks ago. In the same poll released today, 51 percent support President Obama compared to 43 percent for Mitt Romney. Marquette's previous poll (https://law.marquette.edu/poll/2012/05/16/marquette-law-school-poll-shows-walker-kleefisch-lead-in-recall/) had the presidential candidates tied.
If Walker wins, the Republican Party sees a golden opportunity to reverse the state's Democratic trend in presidential elections. Republican Party officials believe that a win by Walker would leave Democrats deflated, making it difficult for them to get excited for the general election."Wisconsin is in play if Walker wins," said Sean Spicer, communications director for the Republican National Committee (RNC), in an interview with Hotsheet

Tall Boy
06-01-2012, 02:41 PM
What is the process to get rid of a governor who does something immoral and/or unethical? We don't have a uniform set of standards for that.... so the recall process is the only way.



What was immoral or unethical? We could get into the spinless democrats who split town to avoid doing the job they were elected to do.........

David G
06-01-2012, 03:05 PM
What was immoral or unethical? We could get into the spinless democrats who split town to avoid doing the job they were elected to do.........

Your opinion about the morality, ethics, correctness, efficacy, or wisdom of the governor's actions - DOES NOT matter. No single persons opinion matters. What the Democrats did in response does not matter.

The point is... enough people in the state of Wisconsin felt that what Walker did was unacceptable to generate sufficient signatures to put a recall election on the ballet. It appears, according to the polls cited, that he will survive the recall election. We'll know soon. If he survives... where does he stand? Will he regard it as a mandate to pursue his policies and his style of governance in a revitalized and redoubled fashion? Or will he be weakened? Will the people of Wisconsin see it as vindication for his administration, or will they figure the Koch brothers spent enough to buy the election?

Mrleft8
06-01-2012, 03:07 PM
Why all this interest in Phil Heffernan's dog, anyway?...... And when did he move to Wisco?

Tall Boy
06-01-2012, 03:21 PM
David G;3431296] If he survives... where does he stand?

Doesn't matter, he will be standing...hopefuly on the throats of the democrats.......

John of Phoenix
06-01-2012, 03:27 PM
Look me up when the recall is over, then we'll talk.The old "Change the rules in the middle of the game" trick? Not this time. The signatures on the recall petition, real or phoney, have nothing to do with the outcome of the recall election. You lost that hand. You wanna try again? Fine by me but I have no idea how the election will turn out.

Tall Boy
06-01-2012, 03:43 PM
The old "Change the rules in the middle of the game" trick? Not this time. The signatures on the recall petition, real or phoney, have nothing to do with the outcome of the recall election. You lost that hand. You wanna try again? Fine by me but I have no idea how the election will turn out.

Ya know, I just noticed that there is something about my signature that gives you a chubby you just can't keep your hands off. I hear they have pills for that, do me a favor and get some.

John of Phoenix
06-01-2012, 03:54 PM
If you're going to announce that you seem to get beaten by a pair of twos often enough that it burns you, what do you expect to happen when you get beaten by another pair of twos? Somebody's going to let you know about it. That duty has fallen to me.

Maybe you shouldn't bet, err post, when you're holding such a bad hand. Which is to say, get your facts together and make a sensible post that doesn't get called crap as soon as it's up.

S.V. Airlie
06-01-2012, 03:58 PM
Wait, wait! Here comes the janitor, hold on...
http://images.wikia.com/animalcrossing/images/5/53/Real_Dung.jpg

Tall Boy
06-01-2012, 03:59 PM
If you're going to announce that you seem to get beaten by a pair of twos often enough that it burns you, what do you expect to happen when you get beaten by another pair of twos? Somebody's going to let you know about it. That duty has fallen to me.

Maybe you shouldn't bet, err post, when you're holding such a bad hand. Which is to say, get your facts together and make a sensible post that doesn't get called crap as soon as it's up.

Ya got to let that thing go son, or you're gunna start stuttering.

john l
06-01-2012, 04:02 PM
moving from cash based to accrual based accounting and claiming a win is so bogus. i'm surprised that real businessmen don't have an issue with this. cash based systems
aren't generally looked upon with any favor from banks. this should be viewed as a lack of credibility on walker.

John of Phoenix
06-01-2012, 04:03 PM
As I said,

Which is to say, get your facts together and make a sensible post that doesn't get called crap as soon as it's up.Put a just little effort into it.

David G
06-01-2012, 04:08 PM
Doesn't matter, he will be standing...hopefuly on the throats of the democrats.......

Why on earth would you say that? It does matter. Certainly to the people of Wisconsin, and some small bit to the rest of us who are interested and concerned regarding the democracy we live in.

Just a hint - the normal sequence for effective argument or productive discussion is:

A. fire up brain (I know you're probably resistant to this... all those short-circuits, and all that rust that must be dealt with first. But really, there is no substitute. Trying to get by without it... as you have been... just does not work).

B. engage mouth (I know you don't have any problem with this step, but the sequence IS important!)

There are further steps, but until you can master these two, in their proper sequence, telling you more will be worthless.

John Smith
06-01-2012, 06:21 PM
John, do you really expect him to?

I don't "expect" anything. I believe he SHOULD go to Wisconsin and fight for the people he claimed to support. Aside from being the right thing to do, he may need Wisconsin to win in November, and the voters there may not be so happy with him if he doesn't weigh in on this recall.

As a point of interest, I am not always happy with this president. I can applaud his good decisions and criticize his bad ones. That makes me honest.

wardd
06-01-2012, 06:23 PM
walker is spending at 10 to 1 and all he gets id dead tie

Tall Boy
06-01-2012, 06:30 PM
Why on earth would you say that? .
Just felt the need for a little goody good liberal brow beating...

John Smith
06-01-2012, 06:43 PM
I've been thinking about the national implications. Of a couple of things. Besides Wisconsin, there is the federal judge that has put the League of Women Voters back into the voter registration business in Florida. I'm guessing this will lead to more people of color voting in November in that state.

As to Wisconsin, if Walker loses it may impact super pac spending if it shows it can't buy the election. If it does by the election, the next time the chosen candidate will get more money pumped into his campaign.

My thinking here is a lot like it was when the vote was taken on Obamacare: the status quo was history and had the new healthcare bill not passed, the insurance companies would have been greatly emboldened to find ways to not cover things. Here, those powers who would end unions will be emboldened if Walker survives.

Chip-skiff
06-01-2012, 06:54 PM
Forcing the reptile Walker into a recall is a victory. If the flood of corporate and lunatic-fringe money that's flooding in to keep him in office prevails, it's proof that elections can be subverted by the corrupt rich. But we already know that.

Propaganda works. It worked in Russia. It worked in Germany. Given the increasing refinement of the US propaganda business (and the coupling of the popular couch-tethered electorate to TV) we can be sure it works here.

But it's wrong.

David G
06-01-2012, 08:09 PM
Just felt the need for a little goody good liberal brow beating...

You can count on the Bilge Posse for that. Are you the NEW Pinata Boy?

Tall Boy
06-01-2012, 09:24 PM
You can count on the Bilge Posse for that. Are you the NEW Pinata Boy?

Well, if someone needs to do it I can. I have a black cat named Button, the reason she got that name is when she is walking away from you, that's all you see. The reason I brought that up is, I get a real kick out of the enlightened ones going off with snarkey retorts in my direction. You see, as I'm reading them, I picture the author looking down his nose, banging away at the keyboard with a clenched jaw and their mouth all scrunched up and looking like Button's button. It makes me smile.......

fishrswim
06-01-2012, 09:34 PM
And your point is what???

Chip-skiff
06-01-2012, 09:37 PM
I picture the author looking down his nose, banging away at the keyboard with a clenched jaw and their mouth all scrunched up and looking like Button's button. It makes me smile.......

I think you have an unhealthy fixation on your kitty's bum.

ccmanuals
06-01-2012, 10:15 PM
I think you have an unhealthy fixation on your kitty's bum.

It's kinda creepy. :)

Tall Boy
06-01-2012, 10:20 PM
And your point is what??? The next time you're out collecting on your paper route, pinch a few quarters, go out and buy a clue.....

fishrswim
06-01-2012, 10:22 PM
The next time you're out collecting on your paper route, pinch a few quarters, go out and buy a clue.....

Next time you write something try to find a point other than the one on your head.

Minnesnowtan
06-01-2012, 10:25 PM
May I remind you of a thread?

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?140513-Wisconsin-Recall&highlight=

Looks like they will never stop whining.

Glen Longino
06-01-2012, 11:05 PM
Forcing the reptile Walker into a recall is a victory. If the flood of corporate and lunatic-fringe money that's flooding in to keep him in office prevails, it's proof that elections can be subverted by the corrupt rich. But we already know that.

Propaganda works. It worked in Russia. It worked in Germany. Given the increasing refinement of the US propaganda business (and the coupling of the popular couch-tethered electorate to TV) we can be sure it works here.

But it's wrong.

Bless you, amigo!:)

Chip-skiff
06-02-2012, 12:55 AM
I'm sure it's an innocent oversight, but you failed to mention the money from organized labor in your list of the effects of uses of money to subvert elections. Of course, that money had always gone left, so it's far more tolerable....right?

Innocent? Stop being such a silly prat. Organized labor hasn't come close to matching the flow of Republican smear-bucks from the Koch Bros. and the nutball super pacs. And you seem to forget that Walker (acting for his rich sponsors) directly attacked labor unions. Why shouldn't they have a few markers in the game?

Why are the Kochs interested? Oh, right. They believe in America.

BrianW
06-02-2012, 05:23 AM
Forcing the reptile Walker into a recall is a victory...

As long as Democrats keep believing that, Republicans will keep on winning and working in politics. :)

BrianW
06-02-2012, 05:28 AM
But really...

If the recall fails, I honestly feel bad for guys like Tom, who worked so hard, and felt so deeply about the situation.

I'm sure they felt, and still feel they did the right thing, for the right reasons.

Perhaps they overestimated the number of people who agreed with them. Sometimes it's easy to do that, when you're surrounded by like minds, both in person and on the internet.

"Job well done gents! If it doesn't work out the way you wanted when the fat lady sings, it wasn't from lack of trying!"

John Smith
06-02-2012, 07:42 AM
Well, if someone needs to do it I can. I have a black cat named Button, the reason she got that name is when she is walking away from you, that's all you see. The reason I brought that up is, I get a real kick out of the enlightened ones going off with snarkey retorts in my direction. You see, as I'm reading them, I picture the author looking down his nose, banging away at the keyboard with a clenched jaw and their mouth all scrunched up and looking like Button's button. It makes me smile.......

I had a black cat once; named him Spot.

John Smith
06-02-2012, 07:50 AM
Bless you, amigo!:)

I fear if Walker wins it will reinforce the "you can't fight City Hall (in this case City Hall is money)" among the people. If Walker loses it will encourage people to fight city hall.

At some point, between now and November, either way, I still think Obama criticizing Citizens United during his State of the Union is going to be a much bigger deal than is commonly thought.

THAT MOVEMENT may be helped by a Walker victory.

Properly orchestrated, an issue can be made that the only way to restore dignity to our elections, power to the people, and such is to vote for those who oppose the Citizens United decision.

I think there's an interesting point to be made that all these wealthy job creators seem only interested in who wins elections, not creating jobs for the middle class. The money they spend trying to buy our politicians this year could have been spent on job creation, healthcare, etc.

John Smith
06-02-2012, 07:52 AM
I'm sure it's an innocent oversight, but you failed to mention the money from organized labor in your list of the effects of uses of money to subvert elections. Of course, that money had always gone left, so it's far more tolerable....right?
Union money isn't spent to destroy corporations. Corporate money is being spent to destroy unions.

It's part of a strategy to keep Republicans winning elections.

John Smith
06-02-2012, 07:54 AM
Innocent? Stop being such a silly prat. Organized labor hasn't come close to matching the flow of Republican smear-bucks from the Koch Bros. and the nutball super pacs. And you seem to forget that Walker (acting for his rich sponsors) directly attacked labor unions. Why shouldn't they have a few markers in the game?

Why are the Kochs interested? Oh, right. They believe in America.
Maddow nailes this again. You might want to watch this and the following segment

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#47654476

Paul Pless
06-02-2012, 07:58 AM
Union money isn't spent to destroy corporations. The unions in question here, aren't corporate affiliated. . .

John Smith
06-02-2012, 07:58 AM
But really...

If the recall fails, I honestly feel bad for guys like Tom, who worked so hard, and felt so deeply about the situation.

I'm sure they felt, and still feel they did the right thing, for the right reasons.

Perhaps they overestimated the number of people who agreed with them. Sometimes it's easy to do that, when you're surrounded by like minds, both in person and on the internet.

"Job well done gents! If it doesn't work out the way you wanted when the fat lady sings, it wasn't from lack of trying!"

It's entirely possible that unions will soon be history, along with overtime pay, work place safety rules, health benefits, and a whole bunch of other things.

Among the things that most sadden me is how we forget the world before unions, before the EPA, and some of the other things so many would like to get rid of. Some here remember the world before Roe v Wade. Women still had abortions, they just weren't very safe.

John Smith
06-02-2012, 08:02 AM
The unions in question here, aren't corporate affiliated. . .

That is true. But it's the divide and conquer strategy at work.

Either way, the unions cannot match the money of the corporations and billionaires, which is why THEY supported Citizens United.

If we had some reasonable control over the facts presented by all this money beingn spent, I don't think the money would be so important. The problem is they put out millions of dollars worth of tv commercials and have no obligation to be truthful.

crawdaddyjim50
06-02-2012, 09:52 AM
Well, if someone needs to do it I can. I have a black cat named Button, the reason she got that name is when she is walking away from you, that's all you see. The reason I brought that up is, I get a real kick out of the enlightened ones going off with snarkey retorts in my direction. You see, as I'm reading them, I picture the author looking down his nose, banging away at the keyboard with a clenched jaw and their mouth all scrunched up and looking like Button's button. It makes me smile.......

LOL! Made my day.

So, Lbj5. How is that global, climate, man made, anthropogenic change scam working out? Like I said, just a way for people who shouldn't have power to get power...

crawdaddyjim50
06-02-2012, 09:54 AM
Either way, the unions cannot match the money of the corporations and billionaires, which is why THEY supported Citizens United.


BS, pure unadulterated BS.

wardd
06-02-2012, 10:51 AM
I'm sure it's an innocent oversight, but you failed to mention the money from organized labor in your list of the effects of uses of money to subvert elections. Of course, that money had always gone left, so it's far more tolerable....right?

organized labor is 10's of thousands of people while the right has a handful of billionaires

wardd
06-02-2012, 11:08 AM
The unions in question here, aren't corporate affiliated. . .

one has to start somewhere, next it's right to work like a peasant

ccmanuals
06-02-2012, 01:16 PM
BS, pure unadulterated BS.

Oh really?

WASHINGTON -- Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker (R) made headlines on Monday when he announced that he had pulled in an unprecedented $13.2 million (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/30/scott-walker-recall-fundraising-13-million_n_1465794.html) in three months to fend off a Democratic attempt to recall him from office. His campaign said "grassroots donors" had boosted his haul, with 76.4 percent of the contributions coming from donations totalling $50 or less.
But a closer analysis of his contributions by The Huffington Post shows that Walker was aided by individuals outside the Badger State, as well as by deep-pocketed donors who are fueling the conservative super PACs that have become major players in national races. Two-thirds of Walker's donations came from outside of Wisconsin, and $3.57 million came from individuals giving $10,000 or more.
Walker's Democratic challengers didn't even come close to matching his fundraising. In the most recent three-month reporting period, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett raised $830,000 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/30/scott-walker-recall-fundraising-13-million_n_1465794.html), while the other frontrunner on the Democratic side, former Dane County Executive Kathleen Falk, brought in $1 million. The other two Democratic candidates, Secretary of State Doug La Follette and State Sen. Kathleen Vinehout, each raised less than $200,000.

pila
06-02-2012, 06:41 PM
Just seems like rich guys buying another election......

Concordia 33
06-04-2012, 01:50 PM
The New York Slimes thinks a Walker win could be bad for President Obama

** note: I printed the whole thing because jib5 doesn't like it when I C&P part of it. :D**




DE PERE, Wis. —
President Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per)
holds multiple paths to re-election, with a handful of battleground states being able to slip away without leading to his defeat. But each possible outcome on his campaign map has always shared a common trait: winning Wisconsin.


A Republican resurgence here, which has burst into full view as the party determinedly defends its sitting governor in a rare recall election, is spilling into the presidential race. The result is poised to shape the general election fight between Mr. Obama andMitt Romney (http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/primaries/candidates/mitt-romney?inline=nyt-per), who intends to add Wisconsin to his list of targeted states.

The president is bracing for a difficult set of challenges, which began last week when an uptick in the unemployment rate provided a fresh reminder of the beleaguered domestic economy and the deepening financial uncertainties abroad. A Republican victory here could set off a wave of adjustments in the lineup of swing states. Even before the outcome of Tuesday’s vote is known, Democrats are warning that Wisconsin is far from a surefire win in November.

“We are tremendously polarized,” Mike Tate, the Wisconsin Democratic chairman, said in an interview on Sunday. “We’re going to remain a very competitive state heading into the fall.”

While the presidential campaign is well under way across the country, the contest has been overshadowed here by the effort to recall Gov. Scott Walker (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/w/scott_k_walker/index.html?inline=nyt-per), a Republican. The election, a culmination of more than a year of bitter unrest, has created a combustible political climate that defies easy characterization in the five months leading up to the general election.

But Mr. Romney is within striking distance of Mr. Obama in Wisconsin, according to several public and private polls and interviews with strategists in both parties, and he intends to start building a campaign operation off the robust get-out-the-vote machinery assembled for Mr. Walker. The decision by the Romney campaign to try to contest Wisconsin is the first sign that Republicans are eager to expand their targets of opportunity and compete on terrain that not long ago seemed squarely on Mr. Obama’s side.

“If we win on Tuesday, this is going to be a shot in the arm and adrenaline that we didn’t expect to have,” said former Gov. Tommy G. Thompson, a Republican who is seeking the party’s nomination to run for Senate. “It is going to spark fervor in the presidential race.”

Mr. Obama has purposefully tried to keep his distance from the recall fight, which has unfolded with all the intensity and acrimony of a presidential campaign within the borders of Wisconsin. The mayor of Milwaukee, Tom Barrett, is the Democratic candidate trying to replace Mr. Walker, who ignited a furor by cutting collective bargaining rights for most of the state’s public workers. It is a rematch of the 2010 governor’s race, which Mr. Barrett lost to Mr. Walker.

The White House has showed tepid support for the recall. Democratic advisers thought the effort would take time and money away from the presidential campaign and poison the pool of independent voters who were a key part of Mr. Obama’s success here four years ago, when he carried the state by 14 points and swept 59 of 72 counties.

The president, who campaigned for Mr. Barrett two years ago, has been conspicuously absent this time. His aides argued that he had a full plate and did not have time to come. But Republicans were quick to point out that Mr. Obama was only a helicopter ride onMarine One (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/p/presidents_and_presidency_us/marine_one/index.html?inline=nyt-classifier) away from the state on Friday when he visited Minneapolis, and again on Saturday after spending the morning in his old neighborhood in Chicago.

“He couldn’t drive 15 miles and show his face here?” said Reince Priebus, chairman of the Republican National Committee, who spent the weekend in his native Wisconsin to stir the pot and campaign for Mr. Walker. “There are going to be a lot of Democrats in Wisconsin who are going to be pretty disappointed with their president who did not come in and help out.”

While there was more talk of Mr. Obama’s absence among Republicans than Democrats here, several Democratic officials said the president was wise to stay away.

“He’s got a very big job as president,” said former Gov. Jim Doyle, a Democrat and one of Mr. Obama’s earliest supporters four years ago. “As important as the recall is, in the big picture, it’s much more important to get Barack Obama (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/o/barack_obama/index.html?inline=nyt-per) re-elected.”

The recall election has created bruised feelings and deepened the partisan divide in the state, which was on full display Sunday at the Zirbel Dairy Farms near De Pere, in northeast Wisconsin, where both candidates in the recall race crossed paths as they courted voters.

At the Brown County Dairy Breakfast, a celebration that drew hundreds of people here on a sun-splashed morning, Laurie Gilson groaned aloud from her spot in line when she looked up and saw that Mr. Walker was dishing out scrambled eggs and conversation. She snapped to her sister: “I just can’t look at him. He’d better not say hi to me.”


To avert a confrontation, Ms. Gilson, 52, moved to another line. She said she was furious over the governor’s attempts to “destroy the teachers union.” She also said that the controversy had shaken the political system and that she feared the president, whom she supported in 2008, would face an uphill battle.


“I think it will be hard for Obama to get re-elected,” said Ms. Gilson, who works at Shopko, a discount store. “I hope he gets back in, but the economy is in the toilet and too many people don’t want him around anymore.”


An hour later, when it was Mr. Barrett’s turn to stand in the breakfast line, he encountered several people who recoiled. One man said he was a Walker supporter and turned away, prompting Mr. Barrett to extend his hand anyway and declare, “In America we can still shake hands, can’t we?”


When the recall election is over, the political conversation here will quickly turn to the race for the White House. Ronald Reagan was the last Republican to carry Wisconsin in a presidential race, in 1984, but George W. Bush came within a hairsbreadth in 2000 and 2004.


While Mr. Romney won the Republican primary in Wisconsin, he has largely focused his efforts elsewhere. Party officials here say they expect him to make a visit soon. But whether or not he is successful on Tuesday, Mr. Walker said, the enthusiasm from his race will not automatically transfer to Mr. Romney.


“For them to make inroads in this state,” Mr. Walker said, “they have to talk about what they’re going to do to take on the powerful special interests to ultimately make the tough decisions that are more about the next generation than just the next election.”


Representative Paul D. Ryan of Wisconsin said Republicans were no longer in a “defensive crouch” after losing the state so soundly in the last presidential race. But the state is known for its share of ticket-splitters, he said, and he has bumped into some people supporting Mr. Walker who may still back Mr. Obama.


“There’s a slice of those Obama-Walker voters who think the recall is wrong, improper, a waste of money and an overreaction,” Mr. Ryan said. “But I see an awakening of citizens participating. It will show that our state is really in play in November.”





http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/04/us/politics/walker-recall-battle-may-hurt-obama.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

S.V. Airlie
06-04-2012, 01:53 PM
I had a black cat once; named him Spot.Really? I would have named him Spotless myself.:)

wardd
06-04-2012, 02:11 PM
what kind of name is "spotless myself"?

ccmanuals
06-04-2012, 02:16 PM
Now is this is interesting.

Who do you think will be the "busiest" group?

Group 1:

The U.S. Department of Justice plans to monitor the recall elections (http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/June/12-crt-709.html) in Wisconsin on Tuesday, and will dispatch a team of federal observers to the city of Milwaukee. The observers will be ensuring that the city complies with the 1965 Voting Rights Act, which prohibits discrimination in the electoral process on the basis of race, color or membership in a minority language group.

Group 2:

Wisconsin's Department of Justice is also sending (http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20120603/APC010405/306030086/) a team of assistant attorneys general and special agents from the Division of Criminal Investigation to 12 cities in an effort to prevent voter fraud.

Concordia 33
06-04-2012, 02:26 PM
Now is this is interesting.

Who do you think will be the "busiest" group?

Group 1:

The U.S. Department of Justice plans to monitor the recall elections (http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2012/June/12-crt-709.html) in Wisconsin on Tuesday, and will dispatch a team of federal observers to the city of Milwaukee. The observers will be ensuring that the city complies with the 1965 Voting Rights Act, which prohibits discrimination in the electoral process on the basis of race, color or membership in a minority language group.

Group 2:

Wisconsin's Department of Justice is also sending (http://www.postcrescent.com/article/20120603/APC010405/306030086/) a team of assistant attorneys general and special agents from the Division of Criminal Investigation to 12 cities in an effort to prevent voter fraud.

I think both will have a lot of spare time on their hands. Neither fraudulent voters note disenfranchised voters would close the 6%+ gap between the two candidates.

Ian McColgin
06-04-2012, 02:33 PM
Latest poll is 50-47. But in what could hurt, some liberal group put out a mailer that listed registered voters and their actual participation. It's apparantly an effort to shame folk into voting. Frankly sounds like a very bad strategy to me since it's more likely to just tick folk off. No one votes because someone scolded them into it.

Concordia 33
06-04-2012, 02:44 PM
Latest poll is 50-47. But in what could hurt, some liberal group put out a mailer that listed registered voters and their actual participation. It's apparantly an effort to shame folk into voting. Frankly sounds like a very bad strategy to me since it's more likely to just tick folk off. No one votes because someone scolded them into it.

Most of these polls all use likely voters (more predictive) and two were completed only yesterday . Of course the actual election can contradict the polling numbers, but the odds strongly favor Walker at this point.





RCP Average
5/17 - 6/3
--
51.5
44.8
Walker +6.7


WeAskAmerica (http://weaskamerica.com/2012/06/04/who-survives/)
6/3 - 6/3
1570 LV
54
42
Walker +12


PPP (D) (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_WI_6312.pdf)
6/2 - 6/3
1226 LV
50
47
Walker +3


Marquette University (https://law.marquette.edu/poll/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/MLSP6_Toplines.pdf)
5/23 - 5/26
600 LV
52
45
Walker +7


WPR/St. Norbert (http://www.snc.edu/sri/docs/2012/201205_recallelection.pdf)
5/17 - 5/22
406 LV
50
45
Walker +5

David G
06-05-2012, 09:23 AM
On Wisconsin -- an editorial in today's Oregonian:

http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2012/06/staying_away_from_wisconsin.html


We don't know how today's recall election in Wisconsin will end.

But we're pretty confident it will not end well.

And while the conflict might move both sides to fight harder, its real message might be to provide a bad example to other states.

Today is the culmination of a year of bitter conflict in Wisconsin, including Democratic legislators fleeing the state to prevent a quorum; recall efforts -- two successful -- aimed at Republican legislators; bitter demonstrations and denunciations ripping across a traditionally genteel state; and tens of millions of dollars in outside money pumped into the battle. But whether or not Gov. Scott Walker is today recalled and replaced by Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, nobody thinks this will be a finish. One vote now separates Democrats and Republican in the state Senate, and between now and November, considerable money and rage will be spilled over control of that vote.

This is no way to govern a state or to conduct democratic politics.

The explosion was set off by Walker's determination not only to cut back on benefits for state workers but also to largely remove their negotiating rights. Now, the negotiating rights are gone but so is any real prospect of the two parties working together in the near future.

We've felt that Oregon public unions should make sacrifices along with the rest of the state in these times, but few Oregon political figures have argued they should lose the ability to represent their members. We've also always felt that recall should be an extreme, last-resort strategy, partly because it often ends up like this.

BrianW
06-05-2012, 09:53 AM
what kind of name is "spotless myself"?

It's a young mans name. Because we know, an older mans name would be "spotted myself".

Gerarddm
06-05-2012, 10:09 AM
Dead heat in last poll?

Saw a photo of some idiot railing against "union thugs". LOL. What a pawn. Sad, really.

David G
06-05-2012, 11:01 AM
http://www.borowitzreport.com/2012/06/05/canada-bracing-for-wisconsin-boat-people/

Orange
06-05-2012, 11:09 AM
Was reading that if Gov. Scott Walker wins, expect to see an appearance from The Occupiers. This could get messy.

"Decision Day In Wisconsin, Democratic Fleebaggers Prepare For The Worst"

http://michellemalkin.com/2012/06/05/decision-day-in-wisconsin-democratic-fleebaggers-prepare-for-the-worst/

David W Pratt
06-05-2012, 11:12 AM
Interesting that they are sending monitors to Milwaukee. My reading of stuff about the election indicates Barret has Milwaukee and Madison sewed up.

Cuyahoga Chuck
06-05-2012, 06:38 PM
The New York Slimes thinks a Walker win could be bad for President Obama

** note: I printed the whole thing because jib5 doesn't like it when I C&P part of it. :D**




http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/04/us/politics/walker-recall-battle-may-hurt-obama.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

You term it "slime" but you use it to prove a a point?

john l
06-05-2012, 06:47 PM
Republican party spent 29.3 million, Democratic party spent 2.9 million on this race.

johnw
06-05-2012, 07:51 PM
Republican party spent 29.3 million, Democratic party spent 2.9 million on this race.

Should be a done deal, then. Not being there, I don't know how the money was spent, but that big a difference in spending hardly ever fails for the moneyed side.

Lew Barrett
06-05-2012, 07:54 PM
I have never felt the recall effort would be successful however much I wish it could be.

johnw
06-05-2012, 07:59 PM
I agree. I for one, and I know my opinion is not universal, find the recall option for political purposes to be a bad thing in practice. The threshold is so low as far as numbers needed in a petition to force a recall as to laughable and the cost to the state is outstanding; and for what purpose. In my mind, the guy won, if he hasn't done anything illegal, unethical, or immoral he ought to have been allowed to serve out his term as governor.

If he'd done something illegal, you wouldn't need a recall. The recall exists for political purposes.

2MeterTroll
06-05-2012, 08:02 PM
well what's the darn verdict? is the scum-bag out or is the other scum-bag in?

johnw
06-05-2012, 08:06 PM
The polls closed 5 minutes ago. Patience.

The exit polls say 50-50, but you know how unreliable they can be.

hanleyclifford
06-05-2012, 08:06 PM
well what's the darn verdict? is the scum-bag out or is the other scum-bag in?Hold your horses; there may be some hanging churds up there.

ccmanuals
06-05-2012, 08:19 PM
The republicans outspent the democrats 8 to 1 with over 75% of the gop money coming from out of state. On the democrat side 75% of the money they raised came from Wisconsin. Let's remember how we got to this point. The union workers in Wisconsin conceded to every request the Governor made of them with regard to dollar concessions. The fight got ugly when he also wanted them to give up their rights. In effect, destroying the unions.

ccmanuals
06-05-2012, 08:24 PM
Regardless of what happens today Walker has big problems:

http://i2.crtcdn1.net/images/ed/2012/06/03/698487.jpgAccording to government lawyers familiar with a Milwaukee criminal corruption probe, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is now a "target" of the investigation.
The legal sources, who are not involved in Wisconsin's recall, spoke on condition of anonymity. They said Walker faces "serious legal challenges," including "a possible indictment," regardless of the election results on Tuesday.
The sources indicate Walker's status was clarified more than a week ago, allegedly following a series of requests by Walker's legal team that prosecutors publicly clear him of any wrong doing before the recall election. Take Action News reached out to Governor Walker's spokesperson for comment on this story and received no response.
The investigation began in 2010 when Walker served as Milwaukee County executive. Six people have been charged, with accusations ranging from campaigning for Walker on government time to embezzlement. 13 other Walker associates have been given immunity from prosecution in exchange for their testimony in the case.

Keith Wilson
06-05-2012, 08:29 PM
Exit polling is now showing the recall election essentially tied; too close to call.

johnw
06-05-2012, 08:33 PM
Regardless of what happens today Walker has big problems:

http://i2.crtcdn1.net/images/ed/2012/06/03/698487.jpgAccording to government lawyers familiar with a Milwaukee criminal corruption probe, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker is now a "target" of the investigation.
The legal sources, who are not involved in Wisconsin's recall, spoke on condition of anonymity. They said Walker faces "serious legal challenges," including "a possible indictment," regardless of the election results on Tuesday.
The sources indicate Walker's status was clarified more than a week ago, allegedly following a series of requests by Walker's legal team that prosecutors publicly clear him of any wrong doing before the recall election. Take Action News reached out to Governor Walker's spokesperson for comment on this story and received no response.
The investigation began in 2010 when Walker served as Milwaukee County executive. Six people have been charged, with accusations ranging from campaigning for Walker on government time to embezzlement. 13 other Walker associates have been given immunity from prosecution in exchange for their testimony in the case.

Interesting, I hadn't heard much about this.

Mrleft8
06-05-2012, 08:40 PM
It's like Blago got reincarnated in a republican skin...... Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lew Barrett
06-05-2012, 08:43 PM
Interesting, I hadn't heard much about this.

You can say that again. Muted release late in the game.

johnw
06-05-2012, 08:55 PM
CBS just called it for Walker.

Bob Smalser
06-05-2012, 09:04 PM
It's been in the news for at least a month. It didn't seem to make much difference to Wisconsin voters.

It's about using government resources for campaigning. A complete joke, given Obama's abuses.

johnw
06-05-2012, 09:08 PM
It's about using government resources for campaigning. A complete joke, given Obama's abuses.

Really?


Six people have been charged, with accusations ranging from campaigning for Walker on government time to embezzlement. 13 other Walker associates have been given immunity from prosecution in exchange for their testimony in the case.

How many people have been charged in Obama's case, and how many granted immunity?

Bob Smalser
06-05-2012, 09:16 PM
Really?



How many people have been charged in Obama's case, and how many granted immunity?

Obama's jury meets in November. Don't get your hopes up.

Walker 60 Barrett 40 with 40% in. Close election, my ass.

ccmanuals
06-05-2012, 09:30 PM
I just heard only 25% of the votes are in and counted. Is someone jumping the gun on this?

bobbys
06-05-2012, 09:37 PM
Are those runaway Democratic State Senators back yet ?.

That might narrow the margin

David G
06-05-2012, 09:41 PM
Looks like Walker wins it.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/06/05/154384654/live-blog-wisconsin-decides-governors-fate-in-recall-vote

And it appears that the Republicans have a winning overall strategy - if they can manage to keep outspending the Democrats by a factor of 8 - 10 times.

johngsandusky
06-05-2012, 09:42 PM
Yes, they're back, and all of them voted several times, to no avail.

Ian McColgin
06-05-2012, 09:48 PM
It does appear just now that Walker has made it by a good margin. I hope that it's a clean win and that we don't have lingering court fights, investigations, and general election mistrust.

htom
06-05-2012, 10:48 PM
Up to ten percent of the ballots may still be in the mail, but I'm not sure if that's enough to tip it into the recount procedures.

Gerarddm
06-05-2012, 10:56 PM
Well, too bad he won. Them's the breaks.

johnw
06-05-2012, 11:12 PM
Up to ten percent of the ballots may still be in the mail, but I'm not sure if that's enough to tip it into the recount procedures.

Usually, the absentee ballots aren't too bad for Republicans.

I guess the lesson is, if you let yourself get outspent 7-1 or more, you're going to loose by a healthy margin. Moneyed Democrats didn't step up the way the moneyed Republicans did, and if we see that in the general election, we might get something like the same result.

johnw
06-05-2012, 11:16 PM
Obama's jury meets in November. Don't get your hopes up.

Walker 60 Barrett 40 with 40% in. Close election, my ass.

No, that's an election. Walker's already won his, and has yet to meet a jury. I'm not convinced he's in trouble there, we'll see.

By the way, Obama's polling pretty well in the state of Wisconsin, about 9-10 points above Romney. We'll see if it holds up. One of the things that helped Walker was the improving economy, and that's one of the things that would help Obama, as well.

Todd Bradshaw
06-06-2012, 12:49 AM
I wish somebody would explain this improving economy to me. Unlike what Walker claims, my property taxes didn't go down, they went up. My wife, who works for the state university and is not in a union and has no collective bargaining agreement (and isn't even paid by state money, she has to get her own federal and corporate science grants) has seen her take home pay go down between $400 and $500 per month. I keep asking her if she's "moving forward" doing the same job in the same place for less money? The answer is something in Latvian that translates to something like "that slimy, bald-spotted A-hole". Unfortunately, there is a whole lot of stupid in this state. Most apparently haven't yet figured out that claiming to not raise your taxes, but instead lowering your income results in pretty much the same thing. You're still screwed. They're happy to line up, grease up and bend over for Walker and his pals.

Bob Smalser
06-06-2012, 05:33 AM
... if you let yourself get outspent 7-1 or more...

Love that wishful thinking.

The only reason you were outspent was your internal polls showed there was no way you could win it. Your committee decided to save money and save face by cutting off funding and keeping your main player away.

Now you even have Bill Clinton working against you because he wants Hillary to have a shot before she's too old, and rising stars like Patrick and Booker because they see your star falling in November.

Time to panic.

David W Pratt
06-06-2012, 06:55 AM
Does anyone know what the turnout was?

BrianW
06-06-2012, 06:59 AM
No matter how you look at it, that was a lot of money for nothing.

Despite their good intentions, Walkers detractors way over-estimated their position, and under-estimated the people who agreed with him.

We can point at the money spent, but in the end, people go to the polls and vote.

BrianW
06-06-2012, 07:01 AM
My wife, who works for the state university and is not in a union and has no collective bargaining agreement (and isn't even paid by state money, she has to get her own federal and corporate science grants) has seen her take home pay go down between $400 and $500 per month.

I'm sorry to hear that Todd.

I will admit to not understanding it, based on what you wrote. If she gets payed by Federal and corporate grants, how did Walkers actions reduce her pay?

S.V. Airlie
06-06-2012, 07:11 AM
This outspending issue by walker although perhaps a reason for his winning, but it ain't everything. Example, there were 3 candidates in 2010 who spent around 50 million for the seat they wanted. All lost Blummy in CT didn't come close to spending what his opponent spent, he won.

ljb5
06-06-2012, 07:24 AM
I'm sorry to hear that Todd.

I will admit to not understanding it, based on what you wrote. If she gets payed by Federal and corporate grants, how did Walkers actions reduce her pay?

Being a professor (or professional researcher) is kinda a weird gig. Basically, you're like a craftsman who rents a bench in a workshop.

You're responsible for bringing in money (in the form of grants) and then you have to pay the University (usually something like 45%) to maintain your position. Naturally, of course, they get to decide how big a cut they want to take out of your grants.

Also, they can impose requirements on you (number of classes you have to teach, number of students, etc) and determine how much you get paid per class.

Also, like any employer, they have control over selecting your retirement plan options such as 401k matching, health care plans, etc.

So, in essence, you end up paying the University to work there... the terms determined by the Board of Regents (or their designees). 16 of the 18 Regents are appointed by the Governor. (The other two are students.)

BrianW
06-06-2012, 07:32 AM
Thanks for explaining that ljb5.

ljb5
06-06-2012, 07:39 AM
Oh... also, you have to pay your students and assistants out of your grants (plus fees, benefits and overhead).... and, of course, the University gets to decide that too.

And if there are any shared facilities, (like the nanofab or the electron microscope lab), they get to set the fees for that too.

Concordia 33
06-06-2012, 08:02 AM
The republicans outspent the democrats 8 to 1 with over 75% of the gop money coming from out of state. On the democrat side 75% of the money they raised came from Wisconsin. Let's remember how we got to this point. The union workers in Wisconsin conceded to every request the Governor made of them with regard to dollar concessions. The fight got ugly when he also wanted them to give up their rights. In effect, destroying the unions.

You are quite correct that that Walker got a lot of money from out of state. In fairness, the recall and Democratic challenger got considerable logistical support from out of state Unions. They came in bus loads to protest the changes, to get recall signatures, and to support the recall election. On election day I know of one union that sent 4 bus loads of members from Michigan to turn out the vote, If that were the only one I'd say its no big deal, but that was typical of many of the unions, and their out of state involvement has been well publicized for the past year. I guess if I were Walker and I had several unions trying to take me out of office by using their national affiliates to make it happen, I wouldn't pass up national contributions from people that want to keep me in office. The whole thing might have been better if the out of state unions AND the out of state money just let the folks of Wisconsin sort this out on their own.

As it turns out, Walker beat Barrett by a wider margin this time then when they both originally ran against each other. It seems like Walker's voter support has increased.

Concordia 33
06-06-2012, 08:22 AM
Just saw this on RealClearPolitics.com and thought it was interesting





Wisconsin Governor Recall Election - Walker vs. BarrettPolling Data

Poll
Date
Sample
Walker (R)
Barrett (D)
Spread


Final Results
--
--
53.2
46.3
Walker +6.9


RCP Average
5/17 - 6/3
--
51.5
44.8
Walker +6.7


WeAskAmerica (http://weaskamerica.com/2012/06/04/who-survives/)
6/3 - 6/3
1570 LV
54
42
Walker +12


PPP (D) (http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2011/PPP_Release_WI_6312.pdf)
6/2 - 6/3
1226 LV
50
47
Walker +3


Marquette University (https://law.marquette.edu/poll/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/MLSP6_Toplines.pdf)
5/23 - 5/26
600 LV
52
45
Walker +7


WPR/St. Norbert (http://www.snc.edu/sri/docs/2012/201205_recallelection.pdf)
5/17 - 5/22
406 LV
50
45
Walker +5



See All Wisconsin Governor Recall Election - Walker vs. Barrett Polling Data (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2012/governor/wi/wisconsin_governor_recall_election_walker_vs_barre tt-3056.html#polls)

Bob Smalser
06-06-2012, 08:29 AM
I wish somebody would explain this improving economy to me.

My wife, who works for the state university and is not in a union and has no collective bargaining agreement (and isn't even paid by state money, she has to get her own federal and corporate science grants) has seen her take home pay go down between $400 and $500 per month.


Me, too.

Our income has been reduced by about $2500 a month because Obama implemented the liberal dream rather than concentrate on the economy during his first year in office, creating a level of uncertainty that's still hurting us today.

John Smith
06-06-2012, 09:04 AM
If he'd done something illegal, you wouldn't need a recall. The recall exists for political purposes.

That may be coming. It seems he has done some illegal stuff and it's about to catch up to him.

The bigger problem, and IT IS A PROBLEM is that while there is no limit to what can be spent on tv ads, there is no requirement for them to be honest. We have ads running in our state praising our governor for our balanced budget. Read the newspaper, and it doesn't balance. This is the big problem that no one wants to address.

John Smith
06-06-2012, 09:06 AM
With 54% in, it's 57/42 Walker.

I'm assuming the Republicans won down the line. I haven't seen any news yet this am.

John Smith
06-06-2012, 09:08 AM
I wish somebody would explain this improving economy to me. Unlike what Walker claims, my property taxes didn't go down, they went up. My wife, who works for the state university and is not in a union and has no collective bargaining agreement (and isn't even paid by state money, she has to get her own federal and corporate science grants) has seen her take home pay go down between $400 and $500 per month. I keep asking her if she's "moving forward" doing the same job in the same place for less money? The answer is something in Latvian that translates to something like "that slimy, bald-spotted A-hole". Unfortunately, there is a whole lot of stupid in this state. Most apparently haven't yet figured out that claiming to not raise your taxes, but instead lowering your income results in pretty much the same thing. You're still screwed. They're happy to line up, grease up and bend over for Walker and his pals.

It's easy to explain. We, the people, accept lying in political campaigns and commercials as free speech. As long as we accept that, we get what we deserve.

Bob Smalser
06-06-2012, 09:09 AM
'Frustrated...Democrats, while wiping the Badger State recall election bloodbath from their shoes, are bombarding the nation with excuses, mitigating circumstances, and outright denial of their own declining reality."

http://spectator.org/archives/2012/06/06/no-more-excuses

John Smith
06-06-2012, 09:10 AM
No matter how you look at it, that was a lot of money for nothing.

Despite their good intentions, Walkers detractors way over-estimated their position, and under-estimated the people who agreed with him.

We can point at the money spent, but in the end, people go to the polls and vote.

That is true, but many of those people vote against their own interest based upon misinformation all that money was spent to supply them with.

John Smith
06-06-2012, 09:12 AM
Me, too.

Our income has been reduced by about $2500 a month because Obama implemented the liberal dream rather than concentrate on the economy during his first year in office, creating a level of uncertainty that's still hurting us today.

I think the onlly uncertainty that's been created in Congress is whether we'll honor our debts or not?

S.V. Airlie
06-06-2012, 09:31 AM
I haven't seen any republican spin. There maybe one lost in the litter left by the libs though

bobbys
06-06-2012, 09:34 AM
Congratulations to those who were hoping that Gov. Walker would survive the recall.... there's no way to spin it, he won, and that's that.

If there's a takeaway from the entire event, I'd say that it might not be what it seems, though... and I offer the following observations:

1) The recall supporters raised about $3.9M, only 25% of which was from out of state; Walker's take was around $31M, of which, 68% was from out of state.... if anyone doesn't think that Citizens United doesn't tie money to elections in adverse ways, I'd say this is proof.

2) Walker won with very roughly the same margin he won, the first time he was elected. Exit polls, however, show Obama's favorability holding at +7% or so... the same as they were before the recall. While this election may have had some profound implications for Wisconsin politics, it doesn't appear that it has much in the way of implications towards national politics.

3) As I learned this AM (and since I'm not a Wisconsin resident), the Democratic challenger was NOT the favorite of the unions, who were behind another candidate. According to a couple of observers talking this AM on NPR, this internal squabble between the unions and the recall supporters had an effect.

The most interesting thing I heard this AM: a Tea Party leader, and one of the original recall supporters, were simultaneously interviewed on NPR. In concluding the interview, the interviewer asked each one how they would have to work together, now that Walker had won, but the Wisconsin Senate went democratic by one vote. Each said that they would have to 'give and take'. When the Tea Party member was asked, 'what will you be willing to give?', her answer was 'why do we have to give anything?' :).

The money point keeps drifting in as a Democratic talking point but really was there one person there that did not know what was going on these past few years?.

Most polls i saw had it close before the election, Look at the start of this thread you will see Liberals{not that i knew} stating it as being close, Do we have a lot of faith in polls there now?.

I saw Gov Walker being very gracious, I see you searched for a negative but let slip Obama and his...

I WON

John Smith
06-06-2012, 09:35 AM
I see where the dems gained control of the senate. That will at least stop the rest of his agenda from being implemented.

bobbys
06-06-2012, 09:39 AM
*lol* and Republicans are spinning this victory as if it were the second coming of Christ :):).

If it had gone the other way im sure we would have heard a Forum member with his BBBAAAAHHHAAAA stuff..

The Unions picked this fight.

I heard a commentator say the Democrats will start their circular firing squad, .

One made a good point, Obama took them for granted and all they got was a Tweet.

If I was a Democrat there i would feel Obama let me down.

wardd
06-06-2012, 09:54 AM
Me, too.

Our income has been reduced by about $2500 a month because Obama implemented the liberal dream rather than concentrate on the economy during his first year in office, creating a level of uncertainty that's still hurting us today.

what obama policy reduced your income and how?

David W Pratt
06-06-2012, 11:49 AM
Evidently the turnout was 57% of registered voters which is high for a gubernatorial race and about 400,000 more than the last election (2.5 mm vs 2.1mm).
Still, it means that 47% of registered voters took a pasadena. And it is even worse than that, some precincts had turnouts>100% bc of same day registration, so 47% is only of registered voters, some people aren't even registered!
I'm appalled at our low participation rates.

2MeterTroll
06-06-2012, 11:58 AM
Well the scum-bag in office stayed in office. the people lost.
Walker has proven he can get away with anything he wants; I would not want to live in Wisconsin over the next few years (providing walker dont end up in jail). but state politics are state politics, WI will be a testing ground for teabag policies.

Concordia 33
06-06-2012, 12:45 PM
Congratulations to those who were hoping that Gov. Walker would survive the recall.... there's no way to spin it, he won, and that's that.

If there's a takeaway from the entire event, I'd say that it might not be what it seems, though... and I offer the following observations:

1) The recall supporters raised about $3.9M, only 25% of which was from out of state; Walker's take was around $31M, of which, 68% was from out of state.... if anyone doesn't think that Citizens United doesn't tie money to elections in adverse ways, I'd say this is proof.

True, but the Recall supporters used far greater out of state personnel (vs. out of state donations) to protest, obtain recall signatures and to get out the vote for election day. I think both sides of this issue used a LOT of outside help. In retrospect I wish the voters of Wisconsin were left to deal with it on there own without all the outside "support" (translation: influence)


2) Walker won with very roughly the same margin he won, the first time he was elected. Exit polls, however, show Obama's favorability holding at +7% or so... the same as they were before the recall. While this election may have had some profound implications for Wisconsin politics, it doesn't appear that it has much in the way of implications towards national politics.

Unless there are revised figures, he actually won by slightly more than last time which is pretty impressive in a recall. With regard to exit polling, this is the same exit polling which labeled the race "too close to call - it will be a late night" only to have the the projected winner less than an hour after the polls closed. Exit polling is considered pretty unreliable, and they clear underestimated Walker's strength and as such probably made similar mistakes with presidential preferences (which could favor Romney OR President Obama). There has also been an observable phenomenon where where people answer face-to-face surveys with the politically correct answer: Not wanting to appear racist, they may say they favor the President, while voting differently when in the privacy of the voting booth. I am not saying that this is the case. More to the point I am saying that it would be hard to draw any meaningful conclusions from the exit polling based on allthese issues.



3) As I learned this AM (and since I'm not a Wisconsin resident), the Democratic challenger was NOT the favorite of the unions, who were behind another candidate. According to a couple of observers talking this AM on NPR, this internal squabble between the unions and the recall supporters had an effect.

I agree, but the Union's candidate lost pretty soundly to Barrett

bobbys
06-06-2012, 01:22 PM
Well the scum-bag in office stayed in office. the people lost.
Walker has proven he can get away with anything he wants; I would not want to live in Wisconsin over the next few years (providing walker dont end up in jail). but state politics are state politics, WI will be a testing ground for teabag policies..

Norm found a Tea Party person in post 135 that said he did not feel like working together.

Will Norm find your post as a liberal calling Walker a "scumbag", Dreaming of jail time?.

Here is a Tea Party test for you.

Walker won a recall not of his doing.

It was done by votes.

I do not feel the Democrats are "scumbags".

Notice the difference.

2MeterTroll
06-06-2012, 02:05 PM
Bobby
you well know i think all politicians are scum-bags; every party!
Would i work with teaparty folks? Yep! right up till they decided they didnt have to negotiate. then i would no longer consider them as viable.
I dont dream of jail time for walker. I didnt offer an opinion on this recall at any time.
its not my state, i dont live there and i dont meddle in the politics of another state, no donations went that direction from my house and i didnt sell the recall.




.

Norm found a Tea Party person in post 135 that said he did not feel like working together.

Will Norm find your post as a liberal calling Walker a "scumbag", Dreaming of jail time?.

Here is a Tea Party test for you.

Walker won a recall not of his doing.

It was done by votes.

I do not feel the Democrats are "scumbags".

Notice the difference.

ccmanuals
06-06-2012, 02:10 PM
.

If it had gone the other way im sure we would have heard a Forum member with his BBBAAAAHHHAAAA stuff..

The Unions picked this fight.

I heard a commentator say the Democrats will start their circular firing squad, .

One made a good point, Obama took them for granted and all they got was a Tweet.

If I was a Democrat there i would feel Obama let me down.


That's absurd and you know it.

bobbys
06-06-2012, 02:17 PM
That's absurd and you know it..

Gov Walker started his own recall?

ccmanuals
06-06-2012, 02:18 PM
The unions "volunteered" to give up all their rights?

johnw
06-06-2012, 02:28 PM
Being a professor (or professional researcher) is kinda a weird gig. Basically, you're like a craftsman who rents a bench in a workshop.

You're responsible for bringing in money (in the form of grants) and then you have to pay the University (usually something like 45%) to maintain your position. Naturally, of course, they get to decide how big a cut they want to take out of your grants.

Also, they can impose requirements on you (number of classes you have to teach, number of students, etc) and determine how much you get paid per class.

Also, like any employer, they have control over selecting your retirement plan options such as 401k matching, health care plans, etc.

So, in essence, you end up paying the University to work there... the terms determined by the Board of Regents (or their designees). 16 of the 18 Regents are appointed by the Governor. (The other two are students.)

Isn't that pretty much how strippers work? They pay some amount to the club to work there, and have to earn enough to pay that and support themselves, which means they often make less than people think they do, or so I've read.

Glen Longino
06-06-2012, 02:44 PM
I'm glad to see Walker remain governor.
Like Texas with Rick Perry, the voters deserve to endure the blithering idiots they elect.

bobbys
06-06-2012, 03:12 PM
I'm glad to see Walker remain governor.
Like Texas with Rick Perry, the voters deserve to endure the blithering idiots they elect..

You might have noticed Liberals have not been doing that well since the Mid terms.

Strange they are sticking to failed tactics and policies yet losing.

We are counting on guys like you keeping your heads in the sand.

http://www.runningonfaith.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/head-in-the-sand.gif

wardd
06-06-2012, 03:52 PM
Isn't that pretty much how strippers work? They pay some amount to the club to work there, and have to earn enough to pay that and support themselves, which means they often make less than people think they do, or so I've read.

in which strip club did you read this?

Glen Longino
06-06-2012, 04:04 PM
.

You might have noticed Liberals have not been doing that well since the Mid terms.

Strange they are sticking to failed tactics and policies yet losing.

We are counting on guys like you keeping your heads in the sand.

http://www.runningonfaith.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/head-in-the-sand.gif

I'm not surprised you and Shorty don't have a clue!
Texas has such a wealth of natural resources and population that even such Troglodytes as GW Bush and Rick Perry can't destroy it despite all their efforts.
Texas has survived despite the Fundamentalist Regressive Troglodytes, not Because of them!:D
Got it?:DLMAO

johnw
06-06-2012, 05:13 PM
in which strip club did you read this?

My eyes were too busy to read in the strip clubs! I believe it was in the Seattle Times, but don't recall for certain.

bobbys
06-06-2012, 05:14 PM
I'm not surprised you and Shorty don't have a clue!
Texas has such a wealth of natural resources and population that even such Troglodytes as GW Bush and Rick Perry can't destroy it despite all their efforts.
Texas has survived despite the Fundamentalist Regressive Troglodytes, not Because of them!:D
Got it?:DLMAO.

Thank you .

Now i feel fresh as when i step out of the shower!.:D

David G
06-06-2012, 09:29 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/181132_402836433102224_8263415_n.jpg

David G
06-07-2012, 10:54 AM
From E.J. Dionne:

http://host.madison.com/news/opinion/column/ej_dionne/e-j-dionne-jr-what-wisconsin-taught-us/article_7f4cefe0-b011-11e1-90a1-001a4bcf887a.html


The left will make a big mistake if it ignores the lessons of the failed recall of Gov. Scott Walker in Wisconsin. The right will make an even bigger error if it allows the Wisconsin results to feed its inclination toward winner-take-all politics.

The danger on the right is greater because winning an epic fight is a heady experience and conservatives can claim a real victory here. Walker didn’t just win. He won decisively. And it turns out that a majority of Wisconsin voters — including many who voted against Walker — simply didn’t like the idea of a recall.

Perhaps the most significant exit poll finding was this one: Only about a quarter of those who went to the polls on Tuesday said that a recall was appropriate for any reason. Roughly six in 10 said a recall should be used only in the case of official misconduct. And another tenth thought a recall was never appropriate. Most voters, in other words, rejected the very premise of the election in which they were casting ballots. This proved to be a hurdle too high for Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, Walker’s opponent.

bobbys
06-07-2012, 12:14 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/181132_402836433102224_8263415_n.jpg.

Where is that Alaska thread, Looks as the Libs are throwing Wisconsin under the bus already.

Concordia 33
06-07-2012, 02:34 PM
The Daily show has a funny perspective on the election



http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-june-6-2012/madison-men---scott-walker-prevails-in-wisconsin-recall

David G
06-07-2012, 02:44 PM
C33 - painful, but funny.

Todd Bradshaw
06-07-2012, 02:51 PM
This one is also excellent (and closer to the truth than you might think).
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-june-6-2012/madison-men---douche-fever-strikes-wisconsin

johnw
06-07-2012, 03:20 PM
Tom, I did not know you were filled with cheese.

bobbys
06-07-2012, 03:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC_ult6-Tb4&feature=player_embedded.

Forgive me Glenn for i have sinned......LOL

ccmanuals
06-07-2012, 03:45 PM
actually the repugs are no longer in control in WI. The lost a seat in the senate swinging control to the Dems. :)

Todd Bradshaw
06-07-2012, 09:06 PM
Maybe on one of your visits here you'll see the areas they were going to destroy with those mines and understand why the people weren't up for selling the areas to the highest bidder. I lived in Illinois for forty years and have lived here for twenty. We're a little more picky about preserving the natural beauty of the land up here, both Dems and Repubs. You really shouldn't be calling others clueless and then leading by example. The last thing we seem to need up here is out of staters telling us what we should be doing.

Glen Longino
06-07-2012, 11:46 PM
I've seen a lot of name calling on this topic on this forum by Democrats. Repug, reptile, scum and so on. The anti Walker people in Madison have made fools of themselves with all manner of poor behavior. Name calling, death threats, generally boorish behavior that will get publicitiy but brings no undecided minds to their cause.
At a county dairy breakfast [a Wi. tradition where a big dairy breakfast is held at a prominent farm in each county during June, Dairy Month. Its a community event much as a church dinner or strawbery festival or, name your favorite local friendly family community get together], a group of anti Walker agitators were so out of control they were told to leave. Like having to throw the brides father out of a wedding reception. Disgraceful and they looked like idiots.

The antiWalker people would have garnered more support with a civil intelligent campaign, instead they acted like a crowd of dolts screaming
" Democracy is DEAD," when they lost the recall. They forced a recall with more than 1 million signatures, a fair election was held and they lost 5 of the 6 recall races to the Republicans. The last is so close a recount is quite likely.

No one here has posted diddly about the mining issure that is the hot topic in Wi. right now. 60 new frac sand mines in the last year and more to come. A huge iron mine project that would have been populated with high paying union jobs, scuttled this year by Democrats.

The control of the senate changing now means little since the legislature of Wi. is out of session until after the fall elections when 1/2 of the senate seats are up for reelection. After November the picture will be more clear.

I am in Wi. now, I have business connections here, I'll be here next month again, I'm here more than i'm not and have been for many years. I may be no expert on Wi. but I know a hell of a lot more that the pundits here from several states away who opine all day long.

Prattle on if you wish but except for the guy from Stevens Point who posts here most of you don't have any clue about the facts here in Wi.

Art.

Yikes!
It has long been believed that Troglodytes could not catch rabies.
Here's proof that at least one Troglodyte has a full-blown case!:DLMAO

Todd Bradshaw
06-08-2012, 10:38 AM
The Korteloppet? Why don't you try skiing the real race? Since my folks have a house north of Rhinelander and have had since the sixties and my 90 year old father still lives there, I've been running around northern Wisconsin since you were probably in diapers the first time. I actually know a lot of those "hillbillies" and most of them aren't too keen on having their environment torn up and the crap from it draining into Lake Superior. Like I said Art, don't embarass yourself.
Tourists...........

David G
06-08-2012, 11:33 AM
The Korteloppet? Why don't you try skiing the real race? Since my folks have a house north of Rhinelander and have had since the sixties and my 90 year old father still lives there, I've been running around northern Wisconsin since you were probably in diapers the first time. I actually know a lot of those "hillbillies" and most of them aren't too keen on having their environment torn up and the crap from it draining into Lake Superior. Like I said Art, don't embarass yourself.
Tourists...........

Oh... don't worry too awful much about Art. He's got to be very used to embarrassing himself by now.