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mmd
04-05-2005, 12:08 AM
Comments on another thread has goaded me into expressing some thoughts on the use of pour-in-place foam for hull flotation. In general, this is good stuff, but like every other material, it has its "dark side".

Types of Foam
There is lots of different types of pour-in-place foam. Some are good for marine use and some are not. The ones that are not are that way because they are structurally weak and crumble into dust at the least provocation, or they don't form discrete bubbles in the goo and therefore suck up water like a bathtub sponge, or they are easily dissolved by exotic substances like gasoline or suntan oil. Most commonly, marine-use foams are based on polyurethane goo.

Weight of Foam

Foam is comprised of bubbles in some type of solidified goo. Regardless of what the manufacturer says, water will eventually be absorbed into the bubbles (if water gets into the fabric of a solid fiberglass hull creating water-filled osmotic blisters, what make you think that it won't get into your airy foam?). Manufacturers combat this by formulating smaller bubbles in the goo to slow down the absorption rate, and call it "impervious to water". Unfortunately, smaller bubbles means denser foam, which means greater weight. What this means to you is that if you use a really lightweight foam, it'll suck up water sooner than if you use a heavy one. How much does this foam weigh? Light stuff is around 1.75 pounds per cubic foot and will absorb water up to 10% of its volume, making its weight at the end of a season about 8 to 10 pounds per cubic foot if used in salt water. The denser stuff weighs in at around 3.25 to 4.0 pounds per cubic foot and will absorb about 2% of its volume in water, giving it a year-end weight of around 4.5 to 5.25 pounds per cubic foot.

Perils of Foam

Pour-in-place foam is pretty easy to use, but there are a few characteristics about it that if you don't pay attention can reach out and bite you in the butt - HARD!

1.) There is the problems created by its most wonderful feature - it expands quickly and a lot. If you pour too much in an enclosed space such as the forepeak of your boat, it can and will break its way out if it doesn't have enough room to grow. Blowing out a bulkhead or popping off a deck panel or plank is not uncommon. Read the manufacturer's instructions and calculate carefully how much to mix. It's better to be a little under than a little over.

2.) The chemical reaction that creates the foam also creates heat. Small pours of a cubic foot or so (expanded) just get warm to the touch, but a big pour of several cubic feet can get hot enough to scorch surrounding structures and warp some materials. Get really enthusiastic about pouring a truckload and I'm sure you'll get chance to have a beer with your local fire department guys after they finish hosing down what's left of your shop. If you have a large volume to fill, do it in several small pours.

3.) The chemical reaction also creates out-gassing. This may only be a rather nasty, acidic assault on your probiscus (and sure to get SWMBO cranky about the smell wafting through the house from your basement workshop), but some formulations can be downright toxic. Read the manufacturer's instructions - all of 'em, even the fine print under the cute cartoon of the guy in a respirator - before you start mixing the goop. A respirator, an exhaust fan and ducting, or even an outdoor pour might be required if you want to be able to continue to write your name coherently or breathe unaided in the future.

How Much Do I Need?

Uh-oh. Here it comes - the designer's favourite answer... It depends. It depends on the size and weight of your boat, whether there is a motor, how much gear is aboard, etc., etc. The idea is to calculate how much the boat and all its gear weighs, then figure out the buoyancy of all that stuff (wood boat = very buoyant; outboard motor = not so buoyant). Subtract the buoyancy from the weight to get the displacement of the submerged boat, then add the volume of buoyancy needed to make the boat weigh less than the water it displaces. With simple boats is a simple process; the more complicated the boat, the more you pull your hair out and curse at random number combinations on the helpless pieces of paper on your desk. Here in Canada the Feds publish a book called Construction Standards for Small Vessels that explains this stuff; I'm sure Uncle Sam has a similar book. If in doubt, consult your friendly neighbourhood boat designer.

So there ya go... Enough information on frothy goo to allow you to boldly go forth and make crunchy messes all over your shop, your boat, you, even the cat. The dedicated hobbyist can even swipe the wife's muffin tin and make the mother-in-law a faux chocolate-chip muffin decorative basket using nothing other than left-over goo and the little nuggets from the bottom of the bunny cage!

Have at 'er boys! (But play safely, OK?)

[ 04-05-2005, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: mmd ]

Ian McColgin
04-05-2005, 06:26 AM
When I built Leeward I made bulkheads at the two outermost frame stations and decks from there to each stem. I had a nice large hole through which to pour the foam and I thought I'd mix up a little too much, pour it in, and any excess would come out the hole for later trimming.

The stuff bubbled up so fast and hot it picked the deck up. I shoved it back down on the seathing mass and stood on it - couldn't sit as it was too hot - till it finally set.

You can bet every subsequent pour was in small amounts.

Recently some air pollution caused the foam to start breaking down. Smells like a tom cat got loose in there.

Jim Mathieson
04-05-2005, 07:19 AM
I've read of a 40 ft Wharram ply boat. A couple bought it from the original owner and found rot spots under the foam. They ended up removing the foam due to rot under the foam.I'd never pour that foam into a wood boat for that reason.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
04-05-2005, 07:34 AM
Even in smallish quantities the exotherm can cause trouble. Thirty years ago I used 2-part PU as flotation in slalom kayaks.
I ruined one boat when the heat distorted the still green deck.

Later I discovered that the damned stuff tended to absorb water.
It is also inflammable, and gives off very toxic smoke.

Corrib
04-05-2005, 08:36 AM
Nasty, nasty stuff. I have a friend who workes with this material most days he is a taxidermist. He says: dont inhale fumes, dont use to fill holes, dont mix with water. The stuff also gives off fumes during cutting shaping, will expand in hot weather and dont get any of the foam crumb/dust in your eyes.

Bruce Hooke
04-05-2005, 08:50 AM
Michael, Thanks for the tutorial. At some point I will have to fill two flotation spaces on my boat. I am starting to think that cutting up chunks of foam board may be the better way to go!

mmd
04-05-2005, 08:59 AM
Bruce, for a long time I have felt that internal flotation should be like internal ballast - fitted to the space in easily-handled pieces, strapped in, and removable.

Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
04-05-2005, 09:40 AM
It's scary for homes as well. I know this 8,000 sq. ft Victorian that the home owner did a full restoration and used the foam mix as insulation in the walls. Now you have to understand this restoration was at such an extreme anal retentive level it would make "This Old House" look like a game show. There was no crown molding in every room he hired artist craftsmen from Poland to slurry real plaster in a tedious 10 step process. The hand carved plaster finials where the chandeliers go were all real plaster. The place is a museum AMAZING quality of workmanship. But when the guy came to fill the walls with the soundproofing chemical foam, he mixed the wrong ratio and it EXPANDED in the walls, CRACKING ALL THE PLASTER :eek: :eek:

Needles to say he had to do it all over again. So I asked him which wall was the foam contractor buried in :D

This is the house

http://www.limitededitionsrealty.com/propertypics/garrison8_2.jpg

[ 04-05-2005, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

AngWood
04-05-2005, 10:26 AM
I'm saving up 16 ounce plastic coke bottles.

Venchka
04-05-2005, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by AngWood:
I'm saving up 16 ounce plastic coke bottles.There you go. Stick 'em in those mesh bags you get satsumas in from the guy on the side of the road. Right, cuz?

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

Bruce Hooke
04-05-2005, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by AngWood:
I'm saving up 16 ounce plastic coke bottles.I wonder how much floatation volume you loose to the space between the bottles...

AngWood
04-05-2005, 11:51 AM
10% less effective, 99% cheaper, 100% less hazardous (i.e. smelly, exothermic, etc.)....

This is for a boat that'll be limited to protected waters. Not sure I'd cross the Atlantic with coke-bottle floatation.

'Course, I'll make sure they're not visible--don't want to cheapen the look.

Venchka
04-05-2005, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Bruce Hooke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by AngWood:
I'm saving up 16 ounce plastic coke bottles.I wonder how much floatation volume you loose to the space between the bottles...</font>[/QUOTE]I reckon there is a net flotation gain if you stuff the mesh bags in plastic trash bags and duct tape the tops closed.

Screw top plastic drink containers. Free. Rot proof. Lightweight. Fit in odd shaped places. Fill them with rainwater if you need to. Keeps them out of landfills. Available in sizes from 8oz. to a gallon. Why use anything else? Except maybe just plain old air in an airtight chamber.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

Bruce Hooke
04-05-2005, 01:16 PM
Even for a boat just used in sheltered fresh water I don't know that I would want to put much faith in plastic trash bags. The soda bottles seem reasonable but counting on any floatation from your average trash bag seems like false security to me. That said, the soda bottles seem like a reasonable idea for a small boat, especially one where the space for floatation is a bit larger than average. For someone who is trying to maximize the floatation they can get from a limited space that they do not want to seal up completely and thus stop air circulation, cutting up foam still seems like the best way to me...

mmd
04-05-2005, 01:49 PM
Ping pong balls.

Lots and lots of ping pong balls.

;) :D

AngWood
04-05-2005, 02:31 PM
You starts with two-liter bottles, then cram some 16 ouncers in the spaces remaining, then some 12 ouncers, then some ping-pong balls, then styrofoam beads, then microballoons.... ;)

Venchka
04-05-2005, 02:43 PM
Bruce,

No doubt you are correct. There are heavy duty bags and the new large zip lock bags that will work better. My locker closures aren't the tightest things around. Any unused space will be cramed with whatever fits. Pop bottles, juice bottles, swim noodles, small inner tubes, spare sails (in waterproof bags), etc.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

Bruce Hooke
04-05-2005, 03:02 PM
:D

John B
04-05-2005, 03:57 PM
I hate the vile stuff. I bought a glass sailing dinghy before christmas sight unseen( local ebay equivalent). I had all the stats on the model so I knew its proper weight. How come I couldn't pick it up and move it.? after some head scratching I drilled a hole and there the stinking stuff was.
So I cut the tops out of the thwarts/ buoyancy and removed it. ( best removal tool... old handsaw BTW)Then I had to make new tops from ply.
17 kg out .. about 3 back in, nett gain about 14 kg saved on a 9'9" dinghy. wassatt.. 30 something pounds.

do you know how much space 3/4 of a cubic metre of foam takes up when its cut up....

lots.1.5 cubic m is my bet. still trying to get rid of it. vile stuff.

Bruce Hooke
04-05-2005, 04:01 PM
My father pulled some "floatation" foam out of his boat that was probably heavy enough to sink all on its own...

Alan D. Hyde
04-05-2005, 04:04 PM
"Vile" is precisely the word for the stuff, John. :D

Alan

Frank Wentzel
04-05-2005, 04:11 PM
An interesting thing about it is that wet foam won't dry out. My father-in-law took wet foam out of a small powerboat he bought and set it in the sun to dry out. It never did! The foam insulates the contained water from the sun's heat and it just sits there. Even after a month it still weighed a ton. Really vile stuff!

/// Frank ???

Bill Childs
04-05-2005, 08:36 PM
Airtight flotation is fine until you drag your boat up to Lake Titicaca. Boom!
We had a favorite lake destination at about 7000 ft elevation in the Sierras. Empty plastic bottles and sealed up plastic bags, like potato chips bags, would explode as you climbed into thinner air.
So if you're planning on making Chitty Chitty Bang Bang with airtight flotation you might get more bang than you figured on when you reach altitude.

Bill

ssor
04-05-2005, 09:28 PM
My limited experience is that extruded styrene foam is quite waterproof. (not the stuff they make cheap ice chests out of). You can build it in or you can just stash it where you find room.

nsdave
04-05-2005, 09:50 PM
Mike, I opted to use solid polyethylene foam for flotation in my boat. I was concerned about the possibility of water being trapped with pourable foam and there seemed to be a lot of folks out there with pourable foam horror stories. In the end I just felt more comfortable with flotation that was removable. The flexibility of the polyethylene makes installation quite easy but it is pricey.

RodB
04-06-2005, 12:38 AM
I found out with a little research that the best flotation was closed cell polyehtylene foam... and found a local dealer who sold 4' X 8' X 2" thick sheets...I asked if they had any scraps and ended up with a giant plastic bag full of odds and ends for $15.00. I just cut and fitted it into my floatation compartments. I have lots left, about 6-10 cu ft.

RB