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ccmanuals
05-04-2012, 02:20 PM
Lest we forget - on May 4, 1970 the Ohio National Guard fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds into a group of students at Kent State Univerity in Ohio. Four were killed and nine others wounded, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis. Some of the students who were shot had been protesting against the American invasion of Cambodia, which President Richard Nixon announced in a television address on April 30. Other students who were shot had been walking nearby or observing the protest from a distance. Those who don't remember history are doomed to repeat it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJqFwCFeosg&feature=related

Ian McColgin
05-04-2012, 02:29 PM
Thank you for the remembrance.

ccmanuals
05-04-2012, 02:33 PM
Till this day I remember how shocked I was when hearing what happened. It sas a sad day for this country.

ron ll
05-04-2012, 02:36 PM
I remember the picture of the young women kneeling over her friend and looking at the camera, shocked and crying.

Ian McColgin
05-04-2012, 02:46 PM
I'd not fully awakened from our May Day Airplane concert when this happened. A particularly horrible return to insanity.

Waddie
05-04-2012, 03:08 PM
I still wonder why the Guardsmen were supplied with live rounds.

regards,
Waddie

Ian McColgin
05-04-2012, 03:10 PM
The following week was what amounted to a pre-internet flash demonstration as so many gethered in DC to protest. I got up early and was walking about meeting folk who were coming from the Lincoln Memorial saying that Nixon was there. "Right" I thought. "Acid, speed or hash." But I wandered over and got there about an hour or so after he was gone. The people who had seen him were in profound shock because they had seen in person the face of complete disconnected banality-of-evil style insanity. That shook me more than Kent State had.

ccmanuals
05-04-2012, 03:12 PM
Some pics to help us remember this tragedy.

http://media.cleveland.com/plain-dealer/photo/-5e72f79b07f0c8f2.jpg

http://hosted2.ap.org/CBImages/?media=photo&contentId=ebbbea9e94d2c10b0d0f6a706700f735&fmt=jpg&Role=Preview&reldt=2012-04-24T17:04:50GMT&authToken=eNoNyjEOwCAIBdATkXxBRQYPI4qJW8cOHr5987vx 9ipZU2MDKwCrTe88Pdw9hgVZXkwzwQkLm%2BpQ1D9ulXLP06UY J7GWPwi2E%2F8%3D

http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/kent-state-1.jpg

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 03:55 PM
Governor "Big" Jim Rhodes (R) was determined to forcefully end the Kent State protests of the U.S. invasion of Cambodia:


At a news conference in Kent, Ohio, on Sunday May 3, 1970, the day before the Kent State shootings [Rhodes] said of campus protesters:

"... we're going to use every part of the law enforcement agency of Ohio to drive them out of Kent. We are going to eradicate the problem. We're not going to treat the symptoms. And these people just move from one campus to the other and terrorize the community. They are worse than Brownshirts and the communist element, and also the Night Riders and the vigilantes. They're the worst type of people that we harbor in America."

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings#section_2

Larry P.
05-04-2012, 04:56 PM
It wasn't a peaceful protest. Wikipedia has a good timeline of the event.

Peerie Maa
05-04-2012, 05:19 PM
It wasn't a peaceful protest. Wikipedia has a good timeline of the event.
Yep, they were throwing rocks ROCKS I say. Damned well deserved to be bayoneted and shot. :mad:

Arizona Bay
05-04-2012, 05:28 PM
I remember...


http://youtu.be/GI7-m919ynU





Sunrise
Surprise
Civilized Man
You were keeper to me
Now your animal is free
And you`re free to die
Die
You`re old and your hands are gray
Your old go home and stay
We`ve all heard you dirty stories
Two thousand years
Two thousand years
Two thousand years
Of your
God damn
Glory

Peerie Maa
05-04-2012, 06:01 PM
Were you there?
Was Larry P?

Bobcat
05-04-2012, 06:08 PM
I have no idea.

I was, and I was at the earlier protests at OSU in Columbus.

They weren't peaceful protests.

I think you're the first person I have ever run across who was there. Do think that the shootings were justified or that some lesser level of force by the National Guard was more appropriate?

Peerie Maa
05-04-2012, 06:08 PM
I have no idea.

I was, and I was at the earlier protests at OSU in Columbus.

They weren't peaceful protests.

So do you agree with Larry's implied view that your fellow protesters deserved bayoneted and shot?

tigerregis
05-04-2012, 06:18 PM
Thanks, it made me so gd mad when it happened, I drove all summer with M4M on my trunk.

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 06:19 PM
The following week was what amounted to a pre-internet flash demonstration as so many gethered in DC to protest. I got up early and was walking about meeting folk who were coming from the Lincoln Memorial saying that Nixon was there. "Right" I thought. "Acid, speed or hash." But I wandered over and got there about an hour or so after he was gone. The people who had seen him were in profound shock because they had seen in person the face of complete disconnected banality-of-evil style insanity. That shook me more than Kent State had.



got anything besides simple, political bigotry to prove that assertion with? NO? That’s what I thought

Peerie Maa
05-04-2012, 06:21 PM
You have a knack for uninformed assumptions. I was an anti-protestor, after being attacked by the anti-war geeks at OSU.

You'll have to talk to Larry about what you consider to be an "implied view." I didn't notice any implications.

OK I made a false assumption. My question still stands. By drawing attention to the throwing of rocks and bottles Larry was setting out a view, or why make the post? None of us forced him to type and send.
What do you think of the outcome at Kent State?

Peerie Maa
05-04-2012, 06:27 PM
Donn,
Stop digging and throw out the shovel.

Arizona Bay
05-04-2012, 06:35 PM
Narrow minded Republican government in action, not much has changed.

http://www.blacksunn.net/ebay/NixonGum.jpg

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 06:35 PM
I have no idea.

I was, and I was at the earlier protests at OSU in Columbus.

They weren't peaceful protests.

sounds like you were moving from campus to campus...?

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 06:39 PM
BTW... Children, throwing rocks and other missles intended to do harm is not a peaceful demonstration... did you forget that on purpose?

isn't it odd that some of the same people who submit that they KNOW what was on Zimmerman's mind now are saying the protesters were being peaceful... that ability to read minds seems to be a bit sporatic... someone thought a firecracker was a good idea no doubt but has now cleaned up that part of his memory

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 06:40 PM
Yep. I enlisted.

not a very informative answer

Steve McMahon
05-04-2012, 06:47 PM
Sadly these things continue to happen.
Currently happening in Montreal with students protesting tuition hikes.
Perfectly peaceful protests, then a small minority starts breaking glass, burning cars, and throwing rocks. Perhaps some mob mentality takes hold in some parts. All H3ll breaks loose, the riot police have to take action, and the peacefull protestors get caught in the crossfire.
All the protestors get smeared as thugs.
All the police get smeared as thugs.
A no win situation.

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 06:50 PM
Sadly these things continue to happen.
Currently happening in Montreal with students protesting tuition hikes.
Perfectly peaceful protests, then a small minority starts breaking glass, burning cars, and throwing rocks. Perhaps some mob mentality takes hold in some parts. All H3ll breaks loose, the riot police have to take action, and the peacefull protestors get caught in the crossfire.
All the protestors get smeared as thugs.
All the police get smeared as thugs.
A no win situation.

I hold them accountable just the same, peaceful or not. it's the same for anyone throwing a cherry-bomb in the hen house then claiming he didn't scare anyone but bird-brains

Steve McMahon
05-04-2012, 06:53 PM
I hold them accountable just the same, peaceful or not. it's the same for anyone throwing a cherry-bomb in the hen house then claiming he didn't scare anyone but bird-brains

Which "them" do you hold accountable? The initial peacefull protestors, the violent minority, the police, or all of them?

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 06:55 PM
Which "them" do you hold accountable? The initial peacefull protestors, the violent minority, the police, or all of them?



the violent minority has yet to be defined... it's an assumption, not a fak

I imagine that every lynch mob has only 2 or 3 who actually do the lynching... everyone else is just peacefully holding torches

Steve McMahon
05-04-2012, 07:00 PM
the violent minority has yet to be defined... it's an assumption, not a fak

I imagine that every lynch mob has only 2 or 3 who actually do the lynching... everyone else is just peacefully holding torches

You need to broaden your horizons beyond your local history Phillip.
:p

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 07:01 PM
So was Donn a student of either KSU or OSU? An outside, anti-protest agitator? Was he a national guardsman? A state trooper? A municiple or campus police officer? Was he up to something else?

Why exactly were you at KSU on May 4, 1970, Donn?

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 07:06 PM
You need to broaden your horizons beyond your local history Phillip.
:p

I do, I have...

brad9798
05-04-2012, 07:14 PM
They PROBABLY should not have been shot ... but boy, they WERE asking for it. :(

Steve McMahon
05-04-2012, 07:14 PM
I do, I have...
I expect all of this could be avoided if people had the common sense to be properly armed. :d

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 07:14 PM
The shootings killed four students and wounded nine. Two of the four students killed, Allison Krause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Krause) and Jeffrey Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Miller), had participated in the protest, and the other two, Sandra Scheuer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Scheuer) and William Knox Schroeder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Knox_Schroeder), had been walking from one class to the next at the time of their deaths. Schroeder was also a member of the campus ROTC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_Officer_Training_Corps) battalion.

Of those wounded, none was closer than 71 feet to the guardsmen. Of those killed, the nearest (Miller) was 265 feet away, and their average distance from the guardsmen was 345 feet.

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 07:18 PM
The shootings killed four students and wounded nine. Two of the four students killed, Allison Krause (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allison_Krause) and Jeffrey Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Miller), had participated in the protest, and the other two, Sandra Scheuer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandra_Scheuer)and William Knox Schroeder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Knox_Schroeder), had been walking from one class to the next at the time of their deaths. Schroeder was also a member of the campus ROTC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_Officer_Training_Corps) battalion.

yes... ?

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 07:24 PM
Yes.

Ian McColgin
05-04-2012, 07:26 PM
I am sorry to have offended Phillip [#20] and any others who think that Nixon's needless expansion of the Vietnam war and his suborning our electoral process were good things. Perhaps I should have made clear that I was reporting what people experienced. They might have been delusional.

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 07:29 PM
Yes.

so, what is the c&p trying to say?

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 07:35 PM
That classes were being held that day. That Scheuer and Schroeder were not "asking for it." That none of the dead had been close enough to the Ohio National guardsmen to have posed a threat. That firing live rounds into a crowd on a university campus while school is in session is not a good way to disperse a protest.

What do you think my post meant?

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 07:43 PM
That classes were being held that day. That Scheuer and Schroeder were not "asking for it." That none of the dead had been close enough to the Ohio National guardsmen to have posed a threat. That firing live rounds into a crowd on a university campus while school is in session is not a good way to disperse a protest.

What do you think my post meant?

I'll buy most of it... there was nothing to indicate that the two protesters weren't posing a threat though

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 07:55 PM
If you think Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder were posing a threat to the Ohio National Guard that day you are ignorant. If you think firing live rounds into a crowd and killing - for sake of argument - 50% protesters and 50% innocent students walking to class is effective crowd control... well, I can't say more without risking banishment. :mad:

Which is why I was attempting to acquaint you with the facts.

Evidently presenting facts to you is a big waste of time.

pefjr
05-04-2012, 07:56 PM
Old National wound. Why did CC choose to open an old wound? There are many mistakes being made today, in fact one of them is hauntingly similar to the mistake of Viet Nam. Guess Obama didn't remember History, eh CC? Kent State ?.... minor, compared to the Obama and the left's Afghanistan "Good War". Going on 11 yrs now.

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 07:57 PM
If you think Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder were posing a threat to the Ohio National Guard that day you are ignorant.

Which is why I was attempting to acquaint you with the facts.

Evidently presenting facts to you is a big waste of time.




you are right, I am ignorant. I do not know if they were a threat or if they were not a threat and I doubt that you know either... that summer was one hell of a tense time and keeping the pressure up (via rock protests and rock throwing protests bled over onto every campus... the tension did not happen in a vacuum... if putting such pressure on the soldiers (I note that we supposedly support our troops these days) was intended then the results belong to those who kept up the pressure... at least in part

The good old days were never the good old days and we remember with advantage (as said in Henry-V)

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 07:59 PM
Old National wound. Why did CC choose to open an old wound? There are many mistakes being made today, in fact one of them is hauntingly similar to the mistake of Viet Nam. Guess Obama didn't remember History, eh CC? Kent State ?.... minor, compared to the Obama and the left's Afghanistan "Good War". Going on 11 yrs now.



The 10,000-PLUS Day War

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 08:03 PM
What part of "walking from one class to the next" do you fail to understand??? :mad:

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 08:04 PM
What part of "walking from one class to the next" do you fail to understand??? :mad:

I understand it perfectly well... you said two were protesting and we were talking about them... don't you remember?

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 08:13 PM
What is your point, Phillip? That firing live rounds into that unarmed campus crowd while classes were in session was justified? That Scheuer's and Schroeder's lives were sacrificed for the common good?

Come out with it.

FWIW, every person shot and killed or wounded that day was a student in good standing at Kent State University.

ChrisBen
05-04-2012, 08:18 PM
What is your point, Phillip? That firing live rounds into that unarmed crowd was justified? That Scheuer's and Schroeder's lives were sacrificed for the common good?

Come out with it.

FWIW, every person shot and killed or wounded that day was a student in good standing at Kent State University.Cmon Tom, they were college students, Subversives. Everyone knows that.

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 08:19 PM
What is your point, Phillip? That firing live rounds into that unarmed crowd was justified? That Scheuer and Schroeder lives were snuffed out for the common good?

Come out with it.

FWIW, every person shot and killed or wounded that day was a student in good standing at Kent State University.

keep your story straight:

You said:
two of the dead were students pursuing their academic day
two of the people were involved in the protest

we began to talk about the two protesters in terms of whether or not they posed a threat to the soldiers
I said I didn't know one way or another
you have now indicated that all four were pursuing their academic day and not any sort of threat

that represents a change in your story

Lew Barrett
05-04-2012, 08:24 PM
So was Donn a student of either KSU or OSU? An outside, anti-protest agitator? Was he a national guardsman? A state trooper? A municiple or campus police officer? Was he up to something else?

Why exactly were you at KSU on May 4, 1970, Donn?

This is a fair question.

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 08:25 PM
This is a fair question.



yes

SMARTINSEN
05-04-2012, 08:32 PM
keep your story straight:

You said:
two of the dead were students pursuing their academic day
two of the people were involved in the protest

we began to talk about the two protesters in terms of whether or not they posed a threat to the soldiers
I said I didn't know one way or another
you have now indicated that all four were pursuing their academic day and not any sort of threat

that represents a change in your story


Can you possibly imagine that the students in good standing were also participating in the protests? Can you answer the question about the appropriateness of firing live rounds against fellow citizens?

I do not see how this in any way represents a change in Tom's story, but your disingenuous style of argument is extraordinarily frustrating.

pefjr
05-04-2012, 08:33 PM
This is a fair question.LewI think noneya is a good answer.

ChrisBen
05-04-2012, 09:07 PM
They lost.We all lost.

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 09:09 PM
Can you possibly imagine that the students in good standing were also participating in the protests? Can you answer the question about the appropriateness of firing live rounds against fellow citizens?

I do not see how this in any way represents a change in Tom's story, but your disingenuous style of argument is extraordinarily frustrating.


re read it without prejudice and try again... Tom was speaking about two protesters and then suddenly he was talking about walking to class... if violence was started by any protesters then it's not likely that the soldiers started it... what the soldiers might have done is to escalate the violence started by others. That said, it does not expunge the violence by the 'losing' side... or do you think otherwise?

You can test this idea very easily. The next time you see a cop car, throw a rock at his windshield and see if he escalates the violence. You may then complain that the cop started it.

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 09:12 PM
I was fresh out of the service, and considering returning to OSU. I went to the campus to meet with some profs and counselors.

I had a 3.2 beer and a burger with one of my old EngLit profs, and was walking back across the oval, heading for my car to go home. I came upon a group of 'peaceful protestors' who were shooting golf-ball sized rocks through the windows of my favorite building on campus, the Library, with wrist rockets. One of them saw me watching, and hollered at me with a bit of an anti-military curse...I still had my Marine Corps high-and-tight hair, and was clean-shaven and neatly dressed. He shot a rock at me with his wrist rocket, but he missed. I was only a few yards away from him, so I took his slingshot away from him, and used it on his buddies. I put about 6 of them on the ground before the National Guard got there to quiet the situation.

After some choice words from the VVaW in the group, I decided to become a counter-protestor.

They lost.

in the good old days, the winner always was said to have started it... standard procedure

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 09:13 PM
Still not clear, Donn. Which campus were you on during the wrist rocket incident? Ohio State University or Kent State University?

You led us to believe you were on the Kent State University campus on May 4, 1970. Were you? If so, what were you doing there? Looking to stir up trouble?

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 09:15 PM
Still not clear. Which campus were you on during this wrist rocket incident? Ohio State University or Kent State University?

You led us to believe you were on the Kent State University campus on may 4, 1970. Were you?

OSU... he said so

"... and considering returning to OSU. I went to the campus..."

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 09:28 PM
OSU... he said so

"... and considering returning to OSU. I went to the campus..."

Re-read posts #15 & #18. Donn implied he was at Kent State University on May 4, 1970 as an "anti-protestor" He says his motivation to appear in Kent was his earlier experience at Ohio State University.

If all this is true, it sounds to me like Donn was an outside agitator at Kent State.

If so... when the Ohio National Guard ordered the crowd to disperse did that apply only to the student protestors or also to the outside agitators there to protest-the-protestors?

Steve McMahon
05-04-2012, 09:33 PM
Old National wound. Why did CC choose to open an old wound? There are many mistakes being made today, in fact one of them is hauntingly similar to the mistake of Viet Nam. Guess Obama didn't remember History, eh CC? Kent State ?.... minor, compared to the Obama and the left's Afghanistan "Good War". Going on 11 yrs now.

It is important to remember past mistakes lest we forget them and make them again.


There are pleanty of new mistakes to make without having to repeat any, including Bush and the right's Afghanistan that Obama is trying to extricate us from in a logical fashion.

BTW - if Obama has been in power 3 years and the war has been going on for 11, how the heck can you possibly blame him for that? Must be the "new math"

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 09:34 PM
I have no idea.

I was, and I was at the earlier protests at OSU in Columbus.

They weren't peaceful protests.

does anyone believe that the violence of the protesters was appropriate?

SamSam
05-04-2012, 09:38 PM
Kill 4 and wound 9 for protesting in the USA. You got to respect authority. Law and order. Our country, right or wrong. Yep. Slingshots, throwing rocks, we crush that ****. Never mind it turns out they were right, we crush that ****. You got to respect authority. The military and America went on to triumphant victory in a selfless war against tyranny and oppression in Vietnam. The world knows how wonderful it was, the world can see who is to thank for such wonderfulness. It was well worth it. Yep. They lost, that's what counts.



If all this is true, it sounds to me like Donn was an outside agitator at Kent State.

If so... when the Ohio National Guard ordered the crowd to disperse did that apply only to the student protestors or also to the outside agitators there to protest-the-protestors?

Ah, not so much...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Norman

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 09:40 PM
How many people did the student protestors kill?

Does anyone now believe there were no outside agitating reactionaries present with the intention of stirring the pot?

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 09:40 PM
apparently Sam believes that violent agitation by the protesters was the correct thing to do...

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 09:45 PM
Stop the generalizations, Phillip. Detail the student violence. How many were killed by the Kent State student protestors?

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 09:52 PM
Stop the generalizations, Phillip. Detail the student violence. How many were killed by the Kent State student protestors?

ilt would be impossible to measure... so long as we fought ourselves the invading North Vietnamese were encouraged to keep up their fight... no doubt some american soldiers lost their lives due to that sort of thing

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 09:56 PM
Ah, not so much...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Norman

An audio cassette has recently surfaced that some (analysts hired by the Cleveland Plain Dealer) believe documents .38 caliber shots being fired shortly before the Ohio National Guard opened fire. They also believe the tape documents an Ohio National Guard officer ordering his men to prepare to fire.

The U.S. Justice Department subsequently declined to reopen the investigation of the Kent State shootings. The Plain Dealer and the Akron Beacon-Journal have both editorialized in the last 10 days that the Justice Department should reconsider and reopen the investigation. Not to determine any criminality - the statute of limitations has passed - but to get to the historical truth.

The Plain Dealer certainly thinks that this is evidence that outsider Terry Norman started the tragic series of events by firing his handgun at student protestors.

Tom Montgomery
05-04-2012, 10:02 PM
ilt would be impossible to measure... so long as we fought ourselves the invading North Vietnamese were encouraged to keep up their fight... no doubt some american soldiers lost their lives due to that sort of thing

Sit down and shut up like good sheeple. How un-American.

pefjr
05-04-2012, 11:18 PM
[QUOTE=Steve McMahon;3401685]It is important to remember past mistakes lest we forget them and make them again.[QUOTE]Our Presidents Bush and Obama both have not learn from these mistakes. Why is it the left only sees the mistakes of the right, and never sees the mistakes of the left? In an earlier post Ian blames Nixon for VietNam. I guess he forgot about JFK, Johnson, and gang, who by the way, by building V/Nam up to 600,000 troops helped bring Nixon back from the grave and put him in the WH.

Now you are joking right, or have you been asleep for 3 yrs? Obama is trying to extricate us from in a logical fashion.

Please explain your claim of Obama's logic. I didn't blame him for 11 yrs, but I do hold him responsible for the big mistake of escalation. Obama is puppet for the MIC and he had a chance to leave and even Biden advised him to lead our country out of that mess, and instead he escalated and you lefties claimed it as the good war. You may never have the guts to admit it, but I will never let you forget it. No, I don't call it new math, I call it lefty denial of mistakes made under Obama.

johnw
05-04-2012, 11:42 PM
[QUOTE=Steve McMahon;3401685]It is important to remember past mistakes lest we forget them and make them again.[QUOTE]Our Presidents Bush and Obama both have not learn from these mistakes. Why is it the left only sees the mistakes of the right, and never sees the mistakes of the left? In an earlier post Ian blames Nixon for VietNam. I guess he forgot about JFK, Johnson, and gang, who by the way, by building V/Nam up to 600,000 troops helped bring Nixon back from the grave and put him in the WH.

Now you are joking right, or have you been asleep for 3 yrs? Obama is trying to extricate us from in a logical fashion.

Please explain your claim of Obama's logic. I didn't blame him for 11 yrs, but I do hold him responsible for the big mistake of escalation. Obama is puppet for the MIC and he had a chance to leave and even Biden advised him to lead our country out of that mess, and instead he escalated and you lefties claimed it as the good war. You may never have the guts to admit it, but I will never let you forget it. No, I don't call it new math, I call it lefty denial of mistakes made under Obama.

Obama, since 2002, has been telling people that the Iran war was a mistake and we should have been putting our efforts into Afghanistan. Then, once in office, he acted like he meant it.

And for some reason, you feel betrayed.

johnw
05-04-2012, 11:44 PM
Old National wound. Why did CC choose to open an old wound? There are many mistakes being made today, in fact one of them is hauntingly similar to the mistake of Viet Nam. Guess Obama didn't remember History, eh CC? Kent State ?.... minor, compared to the Obama and the left's Afghanistan "Good War". Going on 11 yrs now.

So, we shouldn't bring up unpleasant things? And for some reason, Kent State makes you think of Obama? How old do you reckon he was when that happened?

tigerregis
05-05-2012, 01:02 AM
You boys should know that external to the US is the knowledge that your country came of rebellion against the powers of the day. Then some of you believe that 18th century landowners and enlightenment philosophes have put words of contemporary ideas into a lexicon that has no end(in spite of a number of amendments). So, what is so baffling about a group of minutemen of the zeitgeist to protest an illegal and illogical "domino theory" war based on protecting "our Interests" abroad? If you are founded in violence then you must live with peaceful demonstrations or do what the Black Panthers did and pose with their legal weapons. When peace doesn't work then one must do what the Weather Underground did. Make your minds up and quit arguing.

PeterSibley
05-05-2012, 04:27 AM
Live rounds against stone throwing anti war protesters ..... where was this the Kingdom of Saud, Syria, Egypt?

Peerie Maa
05-05-2012, 04:52 AM
They PROBABLY should not have been shot ... but boy, they WERE asking for it. :(

I think that this is a pretty sad indictment of the American mentality. NO ONE is "asking" to be shot or bayoneted.

purri
05-05-2012, 05:08 AM
^ my sentiments entirely but the matter is one of class and underclass as circumstances allow, "Constitutional matters" notwithstanding.

In short it's a crock in need of being drawn kicking and screaming into a concept of what constitutes democracy.

pefjr
05-05-2012, 08:31 AM
[QUOTE]

Obama, since 2002, has been telling people that the Iran war was a mistake and we should have been putting our efforts into Afghanistan. Then, once in office, he acted like he meant it.

And for some reason, you feel betrayed.He was right about Iran, and wrong enough about Afghanistan, unless you feel he has accomplished a mysterious prior goal of the "good war". If the goal was OBL, you should be proud of our Prez even if the cost of accomplishment is several hundred thousand times Kent State, and still continues.

pefjr
05-05-2012, 08:36 AM
So, we shouldn't bring up unpleasant things? And for some reason, Kent State makes you think of Obama? How old do you reckon he was when that happened?You are awfully slow today.

ccmanuals
05-05-2012, 09:30 AM
The question most people avoid is why was the Guard there in the first place? If there was a fear that violence could erupt on a college campus why wasn't the local police handing the situation? At the time this occured guardsman were not trained in crowd control tactics and procedures. They were receiving combat training. It was a complete failure by the gov. of Ohio and he was never held accountable for his decision.

Dan McCosh
05-05-2012, 09:47 AM
The question most people avoid is why was the Guard there in the first place? If there was a fear that violence could erupt on a college campus why wasn't the local police handing the situation? At the time this occured guardsman were not trained in crowd control tactics and procedures. They were receiving combat training. It was a complete failure by the gov. of Ohio and he was never held accountable for his decision. It was quite common to use the National Guard for crowd/riot control. The results were often disastrous, as the Guard was heavily armed and mainly untrained. That was the main reason for the high death toll in Detroit in 1967, was also problematic in Newark and others.

Tom Montgomery
05-05-2012, 09:54 AM
The question that Donn continues to avoid is: What was he doing at Kent State University on May 4, 1970?

Did he live in Kent? Was he a student? Was he sight seeing? Was he there as a law enforcement officer? Was he there as a national guardsmen (his cryptic "I enlisted")? Was he there for the thrill of stirring the pot?

Larry P.
05-05-2012, 10:32 AM
To elaborate on my earlier post. I didn't say or imply that the protester deserved to be shot. Someone asked how this happened. The point that I wanted to make but didn't have thine to express was that the Kent State protests were not a peaceful one day event. It was something that went on for days. The protesters were not limited to the Kent state campus. They were also gathering and ransacking the town turning over cars and breaking store windows and setting fires. It became a tense and dangerous situation. Both sides were culpable in the escalating tension.

Gerarddm
05-05-2012, 10:35 AM
I remember being completely outraged by Kent State. Lo these many years later there is still zero justification for what happened, and murder charges should have been brought up.

By the way, that first photo of the young woman over the fallen body of a student won the Pulitzer Prize. She was a 14 year old runaway with no real connection to the campus. In later versions of the photograph, the fence post awkwardly rising behind her head was airbrushed out.

Peerie Maa
05-05-2012, 11:14 AM
To elaborate on my earlier post. I didn't say or imply that the protester deserved to be shot. Someone asked how this happened. The point that I wanted to make but didn't have thine to express was that the Kent State protests were not a peaceful one day event. It was something that went on for days. The protesters were not limited to the Kent state campus. They were also gathering and ransacking the town turning over cars and breaking store windows and setting fires. It became a tense and dangerous situation. Both sides were culpable in the escalating tension.

True, most peaceful protests do attract hot heads out for a good riot and the buzz of smashing things. However the issuing of live ammunition and the order to use bayonets is an appalling over reaction to the incident. According to the time line linked to earlier, young American citizens were bayoneted by their own country folk on both Saturday and the Sunday before the shootings. Yet neither the Governor, the Mayor nor the Guards commanders stopped to think whether they had gone too far. It is apparent that they were not interested in defusing the situation, controlling and arresting the criminal element, and establishing calm, they were acting as if they had a determination to win a war.

Lew Barrett
05-05-2012, 11:18 AM
This study, (http://dept.kent.edu/sociology/lewis/lewihen.htm)undertaken by Kent State faculty members sheds a fair degree of light on the incident. It's review and comments might be a new jumping off point for this discussion. Easily googled if you simply use "violence, protest and Kent State" in your search.

One comment made by the authors, who are or were professors in Kent State's Sociology Department, is that the relevance of this event remains intact for reasons that are outlined in the article itself. I don't think anybody regardless of their politics can feel good about what happened at Kent State. They also seem to imply that the legal process following the event was flawed.

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 11:40 AM
True, most peaceful protests do attract hot heads out for a good riot and the buzz of smashing things. However the issuing of live ammunition and the order to use bayonets is an appalling over reaction to the incident. According to the time line linked to earlier, young American citizens were bayoneted by their own country folk on both Saturday and the Sunday before the shootings. Yet neither the Governor, the Mayor nor the Guards commanders stopped to think whether they had gone too far. It is apparent that they were not interested in defusing the situation, controlling and arresting the criminal element, and establishing calm, they were acting as if they had a determination to win a war.

a war mentality was certainly present... and had been for some time... both sides participated in this and excused themselves out of hand... BOTH sides. Remember that at the beginning of this thread, it was called a peaceful demonstration... simply untrue and if there is one lie then perhaps there are many more... that 'excuse' has been used by both sides. It follows, then, if one wants to be taken seriously... they shouldn't tell any lies at all... including little white lies. WATCH YOUR RHETORIC!

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 11:44 AM
True, most peaceful protests do attract hot heads out for a good riot and the buzz of smashing things. However the issuing of live ammunition and the order to use bayonets is an appalling over reaction to the incident. According to the time line linked to earlier, young American citizens were bayoneted by their own country folk on both Saturday and the Sunday before the shootings. Yet neither the Governor, the Mayor nor the Guards commanders stopped to think whether they had gone too far. It is apparent that they were not interested in defusing the situation, controlling and arresting the criminal element, and establishing calm, they were acting as if they had a determination to win a war.

has the UK ever issued live ammunition to policemen chasing down suspicious men in the underground?

Tom Montgomery
05-05-2012, 11:47 AM
WATCH YOUR RHETORIC!

Now that​ is hilarious!

Peerie Maa
05-05-2012, 12:46 PM
a war mentality was certainly present... and had been for some time... both sides participated in this and excused themselves out of hand... BOTH sides. Remember that at the beginning of this thread, it was called a peaceful demonstration... simply untrue and if there is one lie then perhaps there are many more... that 'excuse' has been used by both sides. It follows, then, if one wants to be taken seriously... they shouldn't tell any lies at all... including little white lies. WATCH YOUR RHETORIC!
Are you suggesting that I am telling little white lies, if so please point them out to me.
If not then I suggest that you make it plain that you are not referring to the post of mine that you quote.

Peerie Maa
05-05-2012, 12:50 PM
has the UK ever issued live ammunition to policemen chasing down suspicious men in the underground?

The cases are so totally disparate that this response is a provocative irrelevance.

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 01:04 PM
Are you suggesting that I am telling little white lies, if so please point them out to me.
If not then I suggest that you make it plain that you are not referring to the post of mine that you quote.

I have no intention of making it any plainer... the whole point of little white lies is to prevent clarity in the first place... however I was not speaking of anything you wrote that I noticed.

I was speaking to the subject of discussion and was noticing that the rhetoric was ramping up... someone said that it was a peaceful protest near the beginning of this thread... he knew better or should have

as to live ammunition... I have not personally addressed that topic, which I consider to be a separate topic or SHOULD be separate
to the guy the UK murdered in the subway... did anyone go to jail for that killing? ... talk about OVER REACTION!!! I will never forget that state sponsored murder regardless of any white lies coming from that event

bobbys
05-05-2012, 01:07 PM
Those were brave people protesting Nixon.

Later on Brave libs protested Bush.

Then Libs Protested Obama bombing Libya...

O wait , Their all For that.

Better stick to Kent State and Bush if your a lib.

Peerie Maa
05-05-2012, 01:08 PM
I have no intention of making it any plainer... the whole point of little white lies is to prevent clarity in the first place... however I was not speaking of anything you wrote that I noticed.

Thank you for the clarification.

bobbys
05-05-2012, 01:13 PM
I think that this is a pretty sad indictment of the American mentality. NO ONE is "asking" to be shot or bayoneted..

The English mentality is to shoot and Bayonet Argentinians with the nerve of thinking they own islands off their coast....

Why common sense tells ya England must own islands thousands of miles away with oil...

ccmanuals
05-05-2012, 01:16 PM
I thought the US handled command and control only in Libya and other nations flew sorties? Rewriting history again Bobbys?

ccmanuals
05-05-2012, 01:17 PM
.

The English mentality is to shoot and Bayonet Argentinians with the nerve of thinking they own islands off their coast....

Why common sense tells ya England must own islands thousands of miles away with oil...

Who do you think we should Hawaii back to?

bobbys
05-05-2012, 01:24 PM
I thought the US handled command and control only in Libya and other nations flew sorties? Rewriting history again Bobbys?.

Upon reviewing history every lib has some excuse to blame someone else.

Libya,, Reagan did it.

Afghanistan, Obama cleaning up after Bush.

Iraq, Wait, I just saw a Democratic ad where Obama takes the credit.

Nixon, Why he MUST have started Vietnam it could not have been the pure Knights of Camelot or the Texan..

But hey if you think Congress not voting and us getting orders from the UN, The Arab League, NATO, is OK i wonder...

johnw
05-05-2012, 01:24 PM
You are awfully slow today.

And you're dodging the question.

bobbys
05-05-2012, 01:27 PM
Who do you think we should Hawaii back to?.

The only warships we send over there are filled with tourists, surfers, and Obama birth certificate inspectors!

Lew Barrett
05-05-2012, 01:35 PM
has the UK ever issued live ammunition to policemen chasing down suspicious men in the underground?

Read the article to determine the authors' views on how the handling of this event and the live fire have resulted in permanent changes in the way crowd control is viewed in this country. Their credentials are significant, given they are (in one case, now Emeritus) faculty of Kent State.

pefjr
05-05-2012, 01:40 PM
And you're dodging the question.Not really, the question was kindergarten variety math, irrelevant , and an attempt to distract.

Lew Barrett
05-05-2012, 01:44 PM
.

Upon reviewing history every lib has some excuse to blame someone else.

Libya,, Reagan did it.

Afghanistan, Obama cleaning up after Bush.

Iraq, Wait, I just saw a Democratic ad where Obama takes the credit.

Nixon, Why he MUST have started Vietnam it could not have been the pure Knights of Camelot or the Texan..

But hey if you think Congress not voting and us getting orders from the UN, The Arab League, NATO, is OK i wonder...

Either you weren't there, haven't studied it or are fabricating something out of whole cloth. The protests against the war began even while Kennedy was sending "advisers" over and had already reached a fever pitch by Johnson's term. Johnson was reviled by his own natural base and couldn't think of running for a second term. The convention in Chicago was another heated affair, where students and anti-war protestors ran through the streets. It was reported live on TV, and the events leading up to it featured traumatic incidents like the assassination of Robert Kennedy and the unfortunate adoption of Humphrey as the party candidate, guaranteeing disunity and discord among the Democrats. Your statement is full of holes.

As regards Obama, an argument can be made either way in respect to Libya, but one thing we can say is that whatever involvement we had, for better or worse, our immediate situation has not seen wholesale troop deployments there. Very, very different than Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan. What is more, you also overlook the many posters here who protested or expressed concern over the events in Libya at the time.

Garret
05-05-2012, 01:54 PM
I hold them accountable just the same, peaceful or not. it's the same for anyone throwing a cherry-bomb in the hen house then claiming he didn't scare anyone but bird-brains

So Phillip, you've just said that anyone who protests whether peacefully or not can be/deserves to be shot. I can't believe that's what you really mean. Is it?

There's this thing in the constitution about right to petition/assembly you might want to check out.....

bobbys
05-05-2012, 01:58 PM
Either you weren't there, haven't studied it or are fabricating something out of whole cloth. The protests against the war began even while Kennedy was sending "advisers" over and had already reached a fever pitch by Johnson's term. Johnson was reviled by his own natural base and couldn't think of running for a second term. The convention in Chicago was another heated affair, where students and anti-war protestors ran through the streets. It was reported live on TV, and the events leading up to it featured traumatic incidents like the assassination of Robert Kennedy and the unfortunate adoption of Humphrey as the party candidate, guaranteeing disunity and discord among the Democrats. Your statement is full of holes.

As regards Obama, an argument can be made either way in respect to Libya, but one thing we can say is that whatever involvement we had, for better or worse, our immediate situation has not seen wholesale troop deployments there. Very, very different than Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan. What is more, you also overlook the many posters here who protested or expressed concern over the events in Libya at the time..

I know everybody older then me that could not afford college went to VN.

Then for years i heard how much smarter then me they were/are..

Truth is Most were there to get out and let someone else go..

When it was my turn i got a high number then Nixon started ending it.

To me he is one of the greatest Presidents of all time.

Yet all i ever read is how bad he was.

One has to drag out the fact Kennedy and Johnson started this.

Did people protest Johnson?. sure.

When Nixon came it went crazy yet he inherited this mess..

You can read even in this thread the Nixon blame.. Notice its on him and not JFK and LBJ?

Libya? I believe every Lib here defended Obama and im the only one that raises the concern about Congress not voting..

Seems pretty important to me

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 04:23 PM
.

I know everybody older then me that could not afford college went to VN.

Then for years i heard how much smarter then me they were/are..

Truth is Most were there to get out and let someone else go..

When it was my turn i got a high number then Nixon started ending it.

To me he is one of the greatest Presidents of all time.

Yet all i ever read is how bad he was.

One has to drag out the fact Kennedy and Johnson started this.

Did people protest Johnson?. sure.

When Nixon came it went crazy yet he inherited this mess..

You can read even in this thread the Nixon blame.. Notice its on him and not JFK and LBJ?

Libya? I believe every Lib here defended Obama and im the only one that raises the concern about Congress not voting..

Seems pretty important to me

the only way you can win against the hypocracy is to convince the hypocrites that they are indeed hypocrits... it ain't happening, no matter how brazen it gets, it still ain't happening... they have but to remain 'unconvinced' which is easy because they were dishonest in the first place

give it up, you'll guest get all muddy and you'll only annoy them

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 04:25 PM
you have done the spin and want me to defend against your spin... I"ll let your spin stand alone if you don't mind... you won't get it but smart folks will


So Phillip, you've just said that anyone who protests whether peacefully or not can be/deserves to be shot. I can't believe that's what you really mean. Is it?

There's this thing in the constitution about right to petition/assembly you might want to check out.....

Tom Montgomery
05-05-2012, 04:39 PM
the only way you can win against the hypocracy is to convince the hypocrites that they are indeed hypocrits... It ain't happening, no matter how brazen it gets, it still ain't happening... They have but to remain 'unconvinced' which is easy because they were dishonest in the first place

give it up, you'll guest get all muddy and you'll only annoy them

watch the rhetoric!

Peerie Maa
05-05-2012, 04:49 PM
the only way you can win against the hypocracy is to convince the hypocrites that they are indeed hypocrits... it ain't happening, no matter how brazen it gets, it still ain't happening... they have but to remain 'unconvinced' which is easy because they were dishonest in the first place

give it up, you'll guest get all muddy and you'll only annoy them

I know that as I am a stranger to your shores I might find it difficult to know what on earth you are talking about, but I would be interested to know what it is.

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 04:53 PM
I know that as I am a stranger to your shores I might find it difficult to know what on earth you are talking about, but I would be interested to know what it is.

the vn war protesters caused the death of many soldiers... they cannot afford to ever 'see' that and will declare themselves unconvinced until the hinges fall off of hell

Peerie Maa
05-05-2012, 04:56 PM
the vn war protesters caused the death of many soldiers... they cannot afford to ever 'see' that and will declare themselves unconvinced until the hinges fall off of hell

Interesting point of view. A bit tenuous a link, but if that is your view thanks for explaining.

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 05:04 PM
Interesting point of view. A bit tenuous a link, but if that is your view thanks for explaining.

I was involved (socially) in that war... I listened to the NVN general (years after) admit they wanted to quit but the 'rebellion' at home in the US kept encouraging him and others...you bet the insanity of the war protesters killed our soldiers... if that makes you uncomfortable, there is a simple solution for sleepless nights. It is practiced by aging protesters to this day. How could they do anything else?

most of them know it on some deep level but cannot possibly live with it so they continue the 'good fight' for some of the same reasons that the governments of China, North Korea and other autocracies continue to claim their 'glorious revolution' is still in full swing

we have surrendered in youth the integrity we desire in our dotage

Peerie Maa
05-05-2012, 05:37 PM
Well that just highlights the stupidity of war, especially unwinnable wars like 'Nam. I don't agree with your accusations of surrendering integrity, insanity or hypocrisy though. Coming to a decision that a war is a bad war or an unjust war is neither insane nor a surrender of integrity. Having come to that conclusion there is no hypocrisy in saying so. The information from the General highlights what may be a result of the Law of Unintended Consequences, which you admit you were not aware of until much later.

Attacking the troops for doing their governments bidding is hypocrisy, but criticizing the government for sending them is not.

PeterSibley
05-05-2012, 06:01 PM
the only way you can win against the hypocracy is to convince the hypocrites that they are indeed hypocrits... it ain't happening, no matter how brazen it gets, it still ain't happening... they have but to remain 'unconvinced' which is easy because they were dishonest in the first place

give it up, you'll guest get all muddy and you'll only annoy them

How about we say the US MIC went to war, ate US soldiers, destroyed as much of Vietnam to support it's SV puppets, bombed Cambodia and Laos, but forget which political brand was running the show?

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 06:10 PM
How about we say the US MIC went to war, ate US soldiers, destroyed as much of Vietnam to support it's SV puppets, bombed Cambodia and Laos, but forget which political brand was running the show?

ya mean Tip O'Neil and LBJ?

S.V. Airlie
05-05-2012, 06:19 PM
bobbys change point 9 in your list. Replace with Eisenhower. JFK is responsible for escalating VNam, not starting it. Eisenhower through advisors and perhaps funding.

leikec
05-05-2012, 06:33 PM
I'll buy most of it... there was nothing to indicate that the two protesters weren't posing a threat though
How would you compare Kent State to Waco? Was David Koresh "asking for trouble?" What about Ruby Ridge?

Jeff C

PeterSibley
05-05-2012, 06:46 PM
ya mean Tip O'Neil and LBJ?

I mean America.You guys sit and argue about whose fault such and such was .The world knows... it was America .
The land of wars.http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

Garret
05-05-2012, 06:50 PM
you have done the spin and want me to defend against your spin... I"ll let your spin stand alone if you don't mind... you won't get it but smart folks will

You said
I hold them accountable just the same. & then went on to clarify:


the violent minority has yet to be defined... it's an assumption, not a fak

I imagine that every lynch mob has only 2 or 3 who actually do the lynching... everyone else is just peacefully holding torches

That means you're good with them getting shot.

If you think I'm spinning it, you really need to look into a communications course sir.

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 08:05 PM
That means you're good with them getting shot.



and that is YOUR spin... which you appear to be 'good' with

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 08:08 PM
How would you compare Kent State to Waco? Was David Koresh "asking for trouble?" What about Ruby Ridge?

Jeff C


both of those guys were at their own home... the protesters throwing rocks were not

do you think it's a good idea to dig into minutia? Ya know, it’s really hard to see the big picture by examining individual pixels…

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 08:09 PM
I mean America.You guys sit and argue about whose fault such and such was .The world knows... it was America .
The land of wars.http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

I sympathise with your apparent point... I didn't read your link

Tom Montgomery
05-05-2012, 08:15 PM
Apart from a few outside agitators like Donn Westervelt, the crowd throwing rocks were overwhelmingly students in good standing at Kent State University. Meaning that they were living there.

Phillip Allen
05-05-2012, 08:25 PM
People who throw rocks shouldn't live in class houses

(Tom, sometimes you make a pretty good straight man)

Tom Montgomery
05-05-2012, 08:30 PM
Capital punishment for rock throwing!

purri
05-05-2012, 08:35 PM
Read the article to determine the authors' views on how the handling of this event and the live fire have resulted in permanent changes in the way crowd control is viewed in this country. Their credentials are significant, given they are (in one case, now Emeritus) faculty of Kent State.

Didn't stop Richard Daley and the Chicago "machine".

pefjr
05-05-2012, 08:42 PM
you have done the spin and want me to defend against your spin... I"ll let your spin stand alone if you don't mind... you won't get it but smart folks willGreat parry. Cool man, cool.

However, I do disagree with this:
the vn war protesters caused the death of many soldiers... they cannot afford to ever 'see' that and will declare themselves unconvinced until the hinges fall off of hellYes, they contributed to the war deaths in a some ways, but... more importantly, they saved lives by pressuring the leaders into changing their policies and ending that terrible mistake. Without that freedom to protest where would we be now?

Peerie Maa
05-06-2012, 04:34 AM
Capital punishment for rock throwing! without trial!

stevebaby
05-06-2012, 04:54 AM
both of those guys were at their own home... the protesters throwing rocks were not

do you think it's a good idea to dig into minutia? Ya know, it’s really hard to see the big picture by examining individual pixels…
The people of Vietnam were in their own homes too, so they didn't have the option of disengaging at any time...which the US (and Australia) did.

John Smith
05-06-2012, 06:56 AM
I hold them accountable just the same, peaceful or not. it's the same for anyone throwing a cherry-bomb in the hen house then claiming he didn't scare anyone but bird-brains

I've always held a different opinion. I remember riots back then, and I always felt we had the ability to simply drop some agent on the crowd where everyone would simply go to sleep. Somehow usingn live rounds on these events seems overkill.

Is the goal to stop the violence, stop the riot, or make some statement?

John Smith
05-06-2012, 07:01 AM
:d
If you think Sandra Scheuer and William Schroeder were posing a threat to the Ohio National Guard that day you are ignorant. If you think firing live rounds into a crowd and killing - for sake of argument - 50% protesters and 50% innocent students walking to class is effective crowd control... well, I can't say more without risking banishment. :mad:

Which is why I was attempting to acquaint you with the facts.

Evidently presenting facts to you is a big waste of time.If only they'd have had drones.:D

I think the reaction shows the stereotyping; profiling as it were. I a single young driver runs a red light, many an adult will react, "Those damned kids." as if they has all run the light.

Judging by this thread, I don't think we've learned much from this

Ian McColgin
05-06-2012, 07:18 AM
The learning comes and goes but in general we have learned quite a bit:

On the demonstrator side people have revived and refined the lessons of Ghandi, King and Alinski as to how to have peaceful loving resistance even in 'arrest strategy' actions. People have mostly gotten past the notions of armed resistance more common in early twentieth century labor struggles (like the Ludlow Massacre) and past the deliberate provocation of 'police riots' used in the sixties to provoke an excessive law enforcement response. Charges from Kent State about rocks, about as poorly verified as the claim there was an officer ordering "fire", are examples of how law enforcement not only fell for that strategy but used it to justify lethal force, sometimes invented an incident to justify lethal force.

But somewhere towards the end of the sixties most police departments learned methods of crowd control that do not rely on excessive force, even if provoked. Trouble is, if the police fall out of practice in mass situations and get accustomed to "non-lethal" forms of force like tasers and concussion devices, their loss of disciplined restraint at the individual level will be matched by the same inability to maintain a measured response.

So far the various cities' responses to various Occupy demonstrations have had some abuses but on the whole not bad for acts of governmental repression. We'll see if they can maintain that. It's possible that they will because the Occupy people are doing a superb job of keeping things measured, limiting excuses. It should not all fall on the demonstrators but I guess the side that's unarmed and can get hurt has a higher motivation for peaceful active resistance.

John Smith
05-06-2012, 07:37 AM
There is a mixture of things here. Using OWS, I think over reaction by law enforcement does a couple of things, one of which is to bring more attention to the movement it is trying to quell. I suspect some of this may be designed to do that: cops lost pension money too.

Others simply may like the authority and want someone to shoot at. Memory tells me some of the Vietnam Protest "violence" was started by undercover cops to give the cops a reason to react with violence.

It's really hard to know, but arresting non violent protesters seems counter productive for those who wish to quell the protest. I sometimes ask myself how I, as a mayor, would react to OWS. I'd like to think I would put out portable johns, lots of litter baskets, etc. and do what I could to encourage them to be peaceful and respectful. I would develop and help efforts to provide food and water.

Police presense would be to protect the protestors as much as to protect others from the protestors.

Meli
05-06-2012, 07:51 AM
I read the first 50 posts.
You people are so strange.
you banter and point score about 4 dead kids.
you might feel different if those antsy, over exited, enthusiastic, rebelious YOUNG people had been yours.

Garret
05-06-2012, 08:06 AM
I read the first 50 posts.
You people are so strange.
you banter and point score about 4 dead kids.
you might feel different if those antsy, over exited, enthusiastic, rebelious YOUNG people had been yours.

No doubt - though I think that with this group it should be "if it'd been you". Many here were involved (in one way or another) in the Vietnam War protests.

I must admit to some surprise at the hard feelings still around after all these years.

John Smith
05-06-2012, 08:10 AM
I sometimes wonder, sans the protests, if we'd still be fighting there.

Meli
05-06-2012, 08:20 AM
I sometimes wonder if you ever stopped

Ian McColgin
05-06-2012, 09:00 AM
During the anti-war movement, there were people who advocated inciting violence on the theory that police over-reaction would radicalize all the victims, many bystanders, and quite a few who saw on TV or read the papers. One of the more "successful" such was a small police riot in Grand Central Station at rush hour. Some radicals let the police infiltrators in on a plan to sieze the station, ensuring a large armed police presence hiding ready to pounce. Then one brave soul tossed some firecrackers and vanished. Lotta hurt commuters. Some hurt cops either from commuters defending themselves or from other cops. No hurt peace freaks since they were never there.

Very lucky that no one was killed. In evaluating that action, I came to the conclusion that my commitment to open active peaceful resistance was both morally and tacticly better. In the long run, more people have come to that point of view and we now see peaceful activism making real change everywhere in the world, but that's another matter.

In demonstrations where I worked as an organizer, we had to be on the watch for the police provocateurs, who were the very most dangerous people on the street, and the militants who believed in violence whom we tried to isolate or keep out all together. Sometimes we could negotiate with them to hold their riot after we'd made our point and left.

Authority in a democracy should put up with disruptive citizen activity. Part of our tradition and part of good citizenship. To the extent that authority must make limits, in a democracy it must do that with great restraint and care that it's only protecting public safety and not protecting the wealthy and powerful from a confrontation with reality.

Gerarddm
05-06-2012, 09:17 AM
The uselessness of Vietnam is shown by the fact that today we are an active trading partner... and they didn't have regime change. Maybe Ron Paul has a point in noting that.

Nixon was the interesting werewolf of American politics, but not a great president.

Kissinger is a war criminal for Chile and Cambodia and I will go to my grave believing it.

Protest is built into the Constitution. But police provocateurs are the lowest of the low.

Nothing mitigates the national tragedy of Kent State.

htom
05-06-2012, 09:40 AM
Again?

I wasn't with Donn, other than in being a recently discharged Marine then, thinking of going back to college where I'd been AFROTC. There's an old saying that I think applies: Be careful what you ask for, because you may get it.

There were those, then, at Michigan State University, who were advocating armed attacks on law enforcement and their families (anyone else remember crowds chanting "Off the Pigs!") Their (unknown) faith and dependency in law enforcement's ability to exercise perfect, complete, and total self-control was as shattered as law enforcements'. I am sure that at least some of those who were killed, crippled, or wounded were not among those calling for violence; and I am equally sure that some of those who were calling for such violence wanted much more, celebrated that "the true iron fist of AMERIKA" had been displayed, and were disappointed in small the casualty list was.

I grieved for both the shot and the shooters. I wondered -- and wonder today -- what I would have done if I'd been standing then and there, on the line, or in command, or as a protester. Maybe I have too much imagination.

I pray that the contempt I feel for those who use this tragedy to make political points does not become worse.

Phillip Allen
05-06-2012, 10:25 AM
I sometimes wonder, sans the protests, if we'd still be fighting there.

think of Korea

ccmanuals
05-06-2012, 10:52 AM
If the Kent state protestors had been tea baggers. Makes one wonder.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CZIs4ItcmIg/Sos10STpwdI/AAAAAAAAASo/nFrSJMkWmYU/s320/guns

bobbys
05-06-2012, 11:40 AM
If the Kent state protestors had been tea baggers. Makes one wonder.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_CZIs4ItcmIg/Sos10STpwdI/AAAAAAAAASo/nFrSJMkWmYU/s320/guns.

Makes me wonder why you use "teabaggers" when its decided we should not use that or Libtards..

At least you did not put up a misspelled sign and misspell Protesters...

Lew Barrett
05-06-2012, 11:44 AM
Didn't stop Richard Daley and the Chicago "machine".

Quite true, and I wouldn't draw the parallel to suggest that a proper science for "crowd management" has yet been developed, or more importantly, fully implemented, but mention the cite to point out that a study done by the university (staff) itself suggests that the events at Kent State had enduring impact. That for those who question why discussing it on it's anniversary is irrelevant.

In respect to Chicago, your point illustrates just how erroneous Bobbys' points are when he casts all "liberals" in one light. He then presumes to know what their motivations were. Now, to directly address your comment, the events of Chicago and the Kent State debacle roughly two years later reflect the same political climate even if they occurred under different administrations. No meaningful, direct redress or commentary by those in control of this country in respect to the poor showing in Viet Nam has ever really been made, although items like Robert McNamara's book and later comments are certainly revealing. Of course, we're hardly alone in ignoring our errors; it's a common tactic of governments, even those created from the ashes of the last administrations' mistakes.

Control is still a top down affair here, and I suspect where you are as well. That's something I think we could even agree with Tylerdurden on. Daley's handling of force majeure was a common feature of both parties, another reason why I responded to bobbys' poorly thought out commentary. But often, I wonder why I bother......

bobbys
05-06-2012, 11:49 AM
Quite true, and I wouldn't draw the parallel to suggest that a proper science for "crowd management" has yet been developed, or more importantly, fully implemented, but mention the cite to point out that a study done by the university (staff) itself suggests that the events at Kent State had enduring impact. That for those who question why discussing it on it's anniversary is irrelevant.

In respect to Chicago, your point illustrates just how erroneous Bobbys' points are when he casts all "liberals" in one light. He then presumes to know what their motivations were. Now, to directly address your comment, the events of Chicago and the Kent State debacle roughly two years later reflect the same political climate even if they occurred under different administrations. No meaningful, direct redress or commentary by those in control of this country in respect to the poor showing in Viet Nam has ever really been made, although items like Robert McNamara's book and later comments are certainly revealing.

Control is still a top down affair here, and I suspect where you are as well. That's something I think we could even agree with Tylerdurden on. Daily's handling of force majeure was a common feature of both parties, another reason why I responded to bobbys' poorly thought out commentary. But often, I wonder why I bother.......

I promise when I bring my son over to go a courting i will sit at your table and nod in agreement at all your ramblings!.

He will be in La Push fishing, I may have to go get him, On the way back im gonna stop at your house and PCfords!:d

ccmanuals
05-06-2012, 11:51 AM
.

Makes me wonder why you use "teabaggers" when its decided we should not use that or Libtards..

At least you did not put up a misspelled sign and misspell Protesters...

When the tparty stops saying Obamacare and start using Affordable Care Act I will refer to them as their proper name.

Phillip Allen
05-06-2012, 12:20 PM
When the tparty stops saying Obamacare and start using Affordable Care Act I will refer to them as their proper name.

good excuse for your continued degradation

bobbys
05-06-2012, 01:35 PM
When the tparty stops saying Obamacare and start using Affordable Care Act I will refer to them as their proper name..

So that's your excuse for your ad Hominy?..

tigerregis
05-06-2012, 01:41 PM
Force majeure is a legal term for acts of the gods. I don't think you mean Daley was one.
Ad hominy is Georgian for " you want grits with that?"

ccmanuals
05-06-2012, 01:42 PM
.

So that's your excuse for your ad Hominy?..

I attacked you? It's not called an excuse, it's called a reason.


Why should I show any respect to a group that shows absolutely no respect for others?

Ian McColgin
05-06-2012, 01:43 PM
I happen to agree that it's better to call the Tea Party folk "Tea Party." One really can't insult them more strongly than just letting them talk.

bobbys
05-06-2012, 01:57 PM
I attacked you? It's not called an excuse, it's called a reason.


Why should I show any respect to a group that shows absolutely no respect for others?.

Do not be the guy that throws the first rock, We do not need every thread with Teabagger and libtard.

I told Transifi not to use libtard.

I can justify my ad hominy's to.

Just knock it off..

ccmanuals
05-06-2012, 02:01 PM
hittin close to home?

bobbys
05-06-2012, 02:05 PM
hittin close to home?.

Was that the intent ?

Lew Barrett
05-06-2012, 05:53 PM
.

I promise when I bring my son over to go a courting i will sit at your table and nod in agreement at all your ramblings!.

He will be in La Push fishing, I may have to go get him, On the way back im gonna stop at your house and PCfords!:d

Bring a decent Oregon Pinot, and patience!

johnw
05-06-2012, 10:31 PM
Not really, the question was kindergarten variety math, irrelevant , and an attempt to distract.

Not really, the question was how does Kent State have anything to do with Obama, given his age at the time. That's the question you're still dodging.

But you knew that.

Dan McCosh
05-07-2012, 08:56 AM
the vn war protesters caused the death of many soldiers... they cannot afford to ever 'see' that and will declare themselves unconvinced until the hinges fall off of hell Those who failed to protest against the war caused the death of a lot more soldiers.

Tall Boy
05-07-2012, 10:26 AM
Those who failed to protest against the war caused the death of a lot more soldiers.

Yeh right...Sorry I didn't join your movment dude, I was too busy building a boat...........

pefjr
05-07-2012, 10:51 AM
Not really, the question was how does Kent State have anything to do with Obama, given his age at the time. That's the question you're still dodging.

But you knew that.This is a new question, go back and review your questions#78 and you will see your error. This new question was answered in #47 long before you asked.

johnw
05-07-2012, 12:44 PM
This is a new question, go back and review your questions#78 and you will see your error. This new question was answered in #47 long before you asked.

I'm sure you are quite intelligent to understand the original question, pretending not to is just a dodge. And post #47 is the reason I asked the question you have still failed to answer.

But never mind, I knew you'd resort to your usual evasions.

pefjr
05-07-2012, 02:10 PM
I'm sure you are quite intelligent to understand the original question, pretending not to is just a dodge. And post #47 is the reason I asked the question you have still failed to answer.

But never mind, I knew you'd resort to your usual evasions.If you knew, why did you bother? Let's see now ...if this event occurred in 1970, and Obama's BC is authentic(questionable to some)then we have a simple arithmetic problem,..... let me get the calculator.... I'll get back to you. I knew you would resort to an attempted insult or accusation, but never mind.

Frank Wentzel
05-07-2012, 07:07 PM
To the comment that the guardsmen were threatened: note that the two actual demonstrators who were who were killed - Jeffrey Miller and Allison Krause were respectively 265 feet and 385 feet away from the guardsmen. Even if they were armed with rocks they were incapable of posing a credible threat. Of the wounded Joseph Lewis was closest at 71 feet (he was shot twice). The average distance of those shot was 345 feet. Wiki mentions that one policeman was hit by a rock ( I would suppose that he was not the only one) but neither at the time nor now have I heard of any reportable injuries to National Guardsmen. Now here you are a guardsman with a rifle - the butt of that rifle is a pretty good weapon all by itself. You have a bayonet on the other end of that rifle - and you feel threatened by people who aren't even close to you? So threatened that killing them with a long range weapon is your only alternative? You feel a need to shoot at people who were more than a football field length away from you? It didn't make sense to me then and it doesn't now. This, of course, at ignores the obvious guns versus rocks issue, which I also believe is unsupportable.

/// Frank ///

purri
05-07-2012, 07:18 PM
^ I imagine that Kent State was the National Guard's version of Tom Lehrer's "Four Hunters, three Game Wardens and a cow".

johnw
05-07-2012, 07:40 PM
If you knew, why did you bother? Let's see now ...if this event occurred in 1970, and Obama's BC is authentic(questionable to some)then we have a simple arithmetic problem,..... let me get the calculator.... I'll get back to you. I knew you would resort to an attempted insult or accusation, but never mind.

Man, you're getting boring. I actually hoped you might have something to contribute. Silly me.

pefjr
05-07-2012, 08:00 PM
Man, you're getting boring. I actually hoped you might have something to contribute. Silly me.I agree, silly you. You keep coming back for some reason, what would that be? Hope in one hand and... yadda yadda....Is this ad hominey your final effort?

ccmanuals
05-07-2012, 08:05 PM
If an attack on someone's character is true is it a ad hominem? Is boring a character trait? so many questions so little time. :)

pefjr
05-07-2012, 08:14 PM
If an attack on someone's character is true is it a ad hominem? Is boring a character trait? so many questions so little time. :)Yes, and Yes, but when you skills are limited ...........You boys are fattin up on that ad hominey lately.

Bob Cleek
05-07-2012, 10:21 PM
Funny how nobody remembers "Bloody Thursday," May 15, 1969, or mourns James Rector anymore. 128 others were seriously injured when police fired 00 buck into the crowd (with most hit in the back) at People's Park. That one was Ronald Regan and Ed Meese's doing... entirely. Ronny wanted to play the tough guy.

hokiefan
05-07-2012, 11:39 PM
To the comment that the guardsmen were threatened: note that the two actual demonstrators who were who were killed - Jeffrey Miller and Allison Krause were respectively 265 feet and 385 feet away from the guardsmen. Even if they were armed with rocks they were incapable of posing a credible threat. Of the wounded Joseph Lewis was closest at 71 feet (he was shot twice). The average distance of those shot was 345 feet. Wiki mentions that one policeman was hit by a rock ( I would suppose that he was not the only one) but neither at the time nor now have I heard of any reportable injuries to National Guardsmen. Now here you are a guardsman with a rifle - the butt of that rifle is a pretty good weapon all by itself. You have a bayonet on the other end of that rifle - and you feel threatened by people who aren't even close to you? So threatened that killing them with a long range weapon is your only alternative? You feel a need to shoot at people who were more than a football field length away from you? It didn't make sense to me then and it doesn't now. This, of course, at ignores the obvious guns versus rocks issue, which I also believe is unsupportable.

/// Frank ///

So NO ONE wants to comment about this? Really? Yeah I'm talking to you Donn... how were these two a threat to the National Guard troops? Enough of a threat to kill students walking to class as collateral damage? I don't stinking get it.

Bobby

purri
05-08-2012, 01:06 AM
I said my bit. (cut lunch soldiers led by General Incompetence)