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Ian McColgin
05-03-2012, 08:26 AM
US man left in cell 4 days just tried to survive

By Julie Watson
Associated Press / May 3, 2012

SAN DIEGO—After two days of being handcuffed in a tiny holding cell and desperate for food and water, Daniel Chong said he realized he had to stop wondering when he'd be let out and start thinking about how to stay alive.

Entering what he called "survival mode," and already drinking his own urine, he futilely tried to trigger an overhead fire sprinkler for some water, stacking clothes and a blanket and swinging his cuffed arms in an attempt to set it off.

Chong, 23, a student at the University of California, San Diego, had been picked up in a drug sweep but was never arrested or charged.

He spent four days forgotten in the windowless cell before Drug Enforcement Administration agents opened the door.

"I just couldn't believe that this was legal," Chong said in an interview Wednesday with the Associated Press. "I'm thinking `no way.'"

After his release, he spent five days in the hospital for dehydration, kidney failure, cramps and a perforated esophagus. He had lost 15 pounds (6.8 kilograms).

His attorneys filed a $20 million ((EURO)15 million) claim Wednesday against the Drug Enforcement Administration, saying his treatment constitutes torture under U.S. and international law.

The five-page notice, a required precursor to a lawsuit, was sent to the DEA's chief counsel in Washington. The $20 million figure refers to the maximum Chong and his lawyers would seek.

The top DEA agent in San Diego, William R. Sherman, said in a news release that he was "deeply troubled" by what happened to Chong.

Sherman said he has personally ordered an extensive review of his office's policies and procedures. The agency declined to say what those were.

Chong said no one has contacted him personally to apologize.

The incident stands out as one of the worst cases of its kind, said Thomas Beauclair, deputy director of the National Corrections Institute, a federal agency that provides training and technical assistance to corrections agencies.

"That is pretty much unheard of," he said, noting that, in his 40-year career, he has heard of instances where people were forgotten overnight but not for days.

A federal law enforcement official familiar with DEA operations said the agency's protocols require that cells be checked each night. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter, said the cell where Chong was held is not intended for overnight stays because it does not have a toilet.

Federal lawmakers are demanding a thorough investigation. Democratic Sen. Barbara Boxer sent a letter Wednesday to Attorney General Eric Holder.

"Please provide me with the results and the actions the department will take to make sure those responsible are held accountable and that no one in DEA custody will ever again be forced to endure such treatment," the letter stated.

Chong told the AP that he went to his friend's house April 20 to get high, part of a national, annual countercultural ritual.

Chong slept there that night and, the next morning, agents stormed into the house. The raid netted 18,000 ecstasy pills, other drugs and weapons. Nine people, including Chong, were taken into custody, according to the DEA.

Chong was questioned then agents told him he was not a suspect and would be released shortly. He signed some paperwork, was put in handcuffs and sent back to the holding cell.

As the hours dragged into days, he said he kicked and screamed as loud as he could. At one point, he ripped a piece of his jacket off with his teeth and shoved it under the door, hoping someone would spot it and free him.

Chong said he ingested a white powder that he found in the cell. Agents later identified it as methamphetamine. Chong said he ingested it to survive.

The next day, hallucinations started, he said. They included Japanese animation characters who told him to dig into the walls to search for water, which he tried, tearing apart the wall's plastic lining.

People can die from dehydration in as little as three to seven days, said Dr. Wally Ghurabi at UCLA Medical Center in Santa Monica.

Ghurabi said Chong was wise to drink his own urine to stay hydrated.

As the days dragged on, Chong said he accepted that he would die. He considered taking his own life rather than withering away by dehydration.

"I thought `wow, this was a terrible way to go,'" Chong said. "I just wanted to have a little bit of dignity."

He sat in the dark, his hallucinations deepening, his breath getting shorter and shorter, even the urine running out, and he screamed for the agents to at least let him have a quick death.

"That's when the lights turned on and the agents opened the door with very confused looks on their faces," Chong said. "They said, `Who are you? Where'd you come from?'"

Chong was not going to be charged with a crime and should have been released, said a law enforcement official who was briefed on the DEA case and spoke on the condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak about the ongoing investigation.

Chong said he has no criminal record.

U-T San Diego was the first to report the ordeal.

Doctors said Chong's wounds should heal, but he said he still breaks down in tears.

"I'm very glad they found me," he said.

# # # # #

Associated Press writers Alicia A. Caldwell and Kevin Freking in Washington, Elliot Spagat in San Diego, and Amy Taxin in Orange County, California, contributed to this report.

seanz
05-03-2012, 08:41 AM
Chong said he ingested a white powder that he found in the cell. Agents later identified it as methamphetamine. Chong said he ingested it to survive.

What?


And his name is Chong?


Is this from The Onion?

stevebaby
05-03-2012, 08:52 AM
What?


And his name is Chong?


Is this from The Onion?Cheech bailed him out.

Tall Boy
05-03-2012, 09:08 AM
I suppose he'll be just fine when they settle the lawsuit....

PeterSibley
05-03-2012, 09:11 AM
I suppose he'll be just fine when they settle the lawsuit....

Perhaps you would like to try it ? They could just as easily have come by on day 7.Your compassion is overwhelming .

bamamick
05-03-2012, 09:21 AM
Horrific. Absolutely horrific.

Mickey Lake

Tall Boy
05-03-2012, 09:22 AM
Perhaps you would like to try it ? They could just as easily have come by on day 7.Your compassion is overwhelming .

Now just what was it about my post that promted your little catty az remark? Your grenola get all stuck together in the box this mornng?

Duncan Gibbs
05-03-2012, 10:00 AM
Nothing burns a guy more than getting beat by a pair of 2s

This must happen to you quite a bit Tall Boy.

(Just a quick dip into these murky depths! I'll be back upstairs if anyone wants me.)

Tall Boy
05-03-2012, 10:08 AM
This must happen to you quite a bit Tall Boy.

(Just a quick dip into these murky depths! I'll be back upstairs if anyone wants me.)

Actualy no, don't play cards with kitties.

Duncan Gibbs
05-03-2012, 10:21 AM
Actualy no, don't play cards with kitties.

Let's dissect the above collection of words.

1. Together they don't form a sentence.
2. "Actualy" is not a real word.
3. "Kitties" was never part of any discussion that preceded this exchange of posts, and nor was it part of your signature line.

Face it shorty: You don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of winning any kind of rational argument.

How would you feel if you had been wrongly imprisoned and left for dead. I'd suggest you'd be pretty pissed off and expecting a large sum of money as compensation for your hurt and trauma. Maybe not...?

Tall Boy
05-03-2012, 10:27 AM
Let's dissect the above collection of words.

1. Together they don't form a sentence.
2. "Actualy" is not a real word.
3. "Kitties" was never part of any discussion that preceded this exchange of posts, and nor was it part of your signature line.

Face it shorty: You don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of winning any kind of rational argument.

How would you feel if you had been wrongly imprisoned and left for dead. I'd suggest you'd be pretty pissed off and expecting a large sum of money as compensation for your hurt and trauma. Maybe not...?

Hmmm, is meow a word?

Duncan Gibbs
05-03-2012, 10:28 AM
Hmmm, is meow a word?

Like I said...


Face it shorty: You don't have a snowflake's chance in hell of winning any kind of rational argument.

Tall Boy
05-03-2012, 10:34 AM
..Argument?? I thought you were refering to poker.


Nothing burns a guy more than getting beat by a pair of 2s


This must happen to you quite a bit Tall Boy.


.

Phillip Allen
05-03-2012, 11:05 AM
the suit needs to includ the personal assets of who ever left him in the cell... AND... his trainer... AND the city council or its equivilant

we've, somehow, got to break those people of sucking eggs

B_B
05-03-2012, 11:07 AM
I suppose he'll be just fine when they settle the lawsuit....


Now just what was it about my post that promted your little catty az remark? Your grenola get all stuck together in the box this mornng?
Tall Boy, the cattiness started with your post #4. Some folks' granola might be stuck in their teeth, but your lack of granola is bunging something else up entirely...

Phillip Allen
05-03-2012, 11:08 AM
Tall Boy, the cattiness started with your post. Some folks granola might be stuck in their teeth, but your lack of granola is bunging something else up entirely...

yes it was catty... but not worth this diversion

Ian McColgin
05-03-2012, 11:18 AM
Quite right that the diversion is not worth it. Just a rightie effort to divert and thus excuse any form of repression.

There are several ways to look at this, ranging from a narrow focus on this as if it were an anomoly, a very rare exception, to an instance of all that's wrong with variously our "War on Drugs" or federal law enforcement cowboys or US penology or whatever.

While the broader issues are significant, I think this case really points to the need to clean out some cowboys, which means top down reform of their agencies.

Tall Boy
05-03-2012, 12:02 PM
Quite right that the diversion is not worth it. Just a rightie effort to divert and thus excuse any form of repression.




I suppose he'll be just fine when they settle the lawsuit....


Tell me Ian, where is the divertion in that? While I didn't feel the need to comment on my thoughts about just what a complete failure on law enforcment's part this was, my comment was looking forward to the compensation the guy will certainly get for the pain and suffering he had to endure. .....................Me freaking yow........

Tall Boy
05-03-2012, 12:07 PM
Tall Boy, the cattiness started with your post #4. Some folks' granola might be stuck in their teeth, but your lack of granola is bunging something else up entirely...

Ya left out a part.


Perhaps you would like to try it ? They could just as easily have come by on day 7.Your compassion is overwhelming .


Try to keep things in context ok.....I know it's hard, but try.....

LeeG
05-03-2012, 12:09 PM
War on Drugs, holy crap.

B_B
05-03-2012, 12:13 PM
Ya left out a part.
Try to keep things in context ok.....I know it's hard, but try.....
Whoosh that went over your head.

Phillip Allen
05-03-2012, 12:20 PM
Quite right that the diversion is not worth it. Just a rightie effort to divert and thus excuse any form of repression.

There are several ways to look at this, ranging from a narrow focus on this as if it were an anomoly, a very rare exception, to an instance of all that's wrong with variously our "War on Drugs" or federal law enforcement cowboys or US penology or whatever.

While the broader issues are significant, I think this case really points to the need to clean out some cowboys, which means top down reform of their agencies.

now YOU are wrong... can't we just let go of the little bumps and swerves without making mountains out of the mole hills

pefjr
05-03-2012, 12:27 PM
Too many preachers and too many politicians on this thread. So, Ian, the dems are gonna take care of that needed reform right? Ha!

Glen Longino
05-03-2012, 12:35 PM
Too many preachers and too many politicians on this thread. So, Ian, the dems are gonna take care of that needed reform right? Ha!

Aw hell, now there's too many mandolin players on this thread!;)

Hwyl
05-03-2012, 12:41 PM
People can die from dehydration in as little as three to seven days, said Dr. Wally Ghurabi at UCLA Medical Center in Santa Monica.

Ghurabi said Chong was wise to drink his own urine to stay hydrated.

Remind me never to consult Dr G

Ian McColgin
05-03-2012, 12:50 PM
Thought I was agreeing with Phillip. And it's nice to learn that Tall Boy does not defend the federal police who did this.

There are plenty of questions as to why the DEA would bother with such a major sweep of some partying college kids but it sounds like their arrest quota was running short or they wanted to make a political point. If the latter, they really could have anticipated overwhelming their own ability to keep track and they could have involved the locals. Frankly, the more I think of it, the more this is emblematic of the sort of contradictions and problems our fundamental policy leads to. I may fall into a sort of Carthago delenda est here, but the answer is legalization of recreational drugs that have, like alcohol, adverse but socially accepted morbidities, decriminalization of any drug use, and supply-side regulation that makes drugs that have no real recreational value (like meth and heroin) unprofitable. Then we could stop subsidizing a huge industry of corrupt cops and prosecutors and defenders and drug suppliers.

LeeG
05-03-2012, 12:55 PM
Ian, it sounds like their regular lock-up was full and he was simply forgotten. The War On Drugs wasn't started by the police but people wanting simple and immediate solutions. California went through the gamut of social changes and the people chose a war on themselves.

Waddie
05-03-2012, 12:59 PM
What good does a monetary settlement alone do? The DEA people who did this won't care about the settlement - it won't come out of their pockets. The taxpayer will foot the bill. Will criminal charges be filed? Will some DEA people go to prison? I think not. Next story, please.........

PS. Bankers would be better managers if their personal wealth were tied to the success of their bank.....

regards,
Waddie

pefjr
05-03-2012, 01:00 PM
I wonder if during those four days the thought occurred to him that he should have said, "No to drugs"?

Tall Boy
05-03-2012, 01:10 PM
I wonder if during those four days the thought occurred to him that he should have said, "No to drugs"?

I'd think he was saying that to himself over and over in the cell.............right up to the time he found the speed on the floor..............

George Jung
05-03-2012, 01:15 PM
What drugs? I thought he was 'clean' (up until he found the meth in his cell)...

Good to see some have been working out - best stream of 'thought'/witty exchanges in quite awhile.... though, to mess up the metaphor, I'll pass on having anyones' back.

Waddie
05-03-2012, 01:15 PM
I wonder if during those four days the thought occurred to him that he should have said, "No to drugs"?

We can't assume he did any drugs - he was never arrested or charged.

regards,
Waddie

Hwyl
05-03-2012, 01:25 PM
We can't assume he did any drugs - he was never arrested or charged.

regards,
Waddie


He certainly made some stupid choices, the report says he went to his friends house to get high.



Chong told the AP that he went to his friend's house April 20 to get high, part of a national, annual countercultural ritual.

Chong slept there that night and, the next morning, agents stormed into the house. The raid netted 18,000 ecstasy pills, other drugs and weapons

pefjr
05-03-2012, 02:58 PM
We can't assume he did any drugs - he was never arrested or charged.

regards,
WaddieAssume??? I didn't assume anything. I wondered. Now, if you want to jump on an assumer, read #26, Ian has it all worked out.

brad9798
05-03-2012, 02:59 PM
I think I mentioned something about folks that 'run' the system in my other thread . ;)

Heads in our legal system need to roll ... literally.

This has NOTHING to do with what the kid was doing when picked up ... THAT is irrelevant.

The issue is the youknowwhats and whoknowwhats running or legal system.

George Jung
05-03-2012, 03:26 PM
Agreed.

Think it will happen? It is an election year...

seanz
05-03-2012, 05:46 PM
War on Drugs, holy crap.

Does this make whoever locked him up a war-criminal?

brad9798
05-03-2012, 05:58 PM
It'll NEVER happen, George J. :(

htom
05-03-2012, 06:13 PM
April 20, for some unknown-to-me reason, has become a big drug party day. I can understand the "send a message" and doing drug busts that evening.

His treatment after he was told he was being let go without charges ... find out who put him there, how he wasn't released. Someone in that chain of command needs to spend a couple of days in similar circumstances. Maybe several someones.

A million for the first day, two for the second, four for the third, eight for the fourth ... at least fifteen million, maybe thirty-one million.

Tall Boy
05-03-2012, 06:22 PM
April 20, for some unknown-to-me reason, has become a big drug party day. I can understand the "send a message" and doing drug busts that evening.

His treatment after he was told he was being let go without charges ... find out who put him there, how he wasn't released. Someone in that chain of command needs to spend a couple of days in similar circumstances. Maybe several someones.

A million for the first day, two for the second, four for the third, eight for the fourth ... at least fifteen million, maybe thirty-one million. And there ya go, 0 to the 1 Percent in 4 days...Gadda love the USA

Hwyl
05-03-2012, 06:41 PM
April 20, for some unknown-to-me reason, has become a big drug party day. I can understand the "send a message" and doing drug busts that evening.

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/420_%28cannabis_culture%29

Hank Rearden
05-04-2012, 07:00 AM
US man left in cell 4 days just tried to survive

By Julie Watson
Associated Press / May 3, 2012

SAN DIEGO—After two days of being handcuffed in a tiny holding cell and desperate for food and water, Daniel Chong said he realized he had to stop wondering when he'd be let out and start thinking about how to stay alive.

Entering what he called "survival mode," and already drinking his own urine, he futilely tried to trigger an overhead fire sprinkler for some water, stacking clothes and a blanket and swinging his cuffed arms in an attempt to set it off.

Chong, 23, a student at the University of California, San Diego, had been picked up in a drug sweep but was never arrested or charged.

He spent four days forgotten in the windowless cell before Drug Enforcement Administration agents opened the door.

"I just couldn't believe that this was legal," Chong said in an interview Wednesday with the Associated Press. "I'm thinking `no way.'"

After his release, he spent five days in the hospital for dehydration, kidney failure, cramps and a perforated esophagus. He had lost 15 pounds (6.8 kilograms).

His attorneys filed a $20 million ((EURO)15 million) claim Wednesday against the Drug Enforcement Administration, saying his treatment constitutes torture under U.S. and international law.

The five-page notice, a required precursor to a lawsuit, was sent to the DEA's chief counsel in Washington. The $20 million figure refers to the maximum Chong and his lawyers would seek.

The top DEA agent in San Diego, William R. Sherman, said in a news release that he was "deeply troubled" by what happened to Chong.

Sherman said he has personally ordered an extensive review of his office's policies and procedures. The agency declined to say what those were.

Chong said no one has contacted him personally to apologize.

The incident stands out as one of the worst cases of its kind, said Thomas Beauclair, deputy director of the National Corrections Institute, a federal agency that provides training and technical assistance to corrections agencies.

"That is pretty much unheard of," he said, noting that, in his 40-year career, he has heard of instances where people were forgotten overnight but not for days.

A federal law enforcement official familiar with DEA operations said the agency's protocols require that cells be checked each night. The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter, said the cell where Chong was held is not intended for overnight stays because it does not have a toilet.

Federal lawmakers are demanding a thorough investigation. Democratic Sen. Barbara Boxer sent a letter Wednesday to Attorney General Eric Holder.

"Please provide me with the results and the actions the department will take to make sure those responsible are held accountable and that no one in DEA custody will ever again be forced to endure such treatment," the letter stated.

Chong told the AP that he went to his friend's house April 20 to get high, part of a national, annual countercultural ritual.

Chong slept there that night and, the next morning, agents stormed into the house. The raid netted 18,000 ecstasy pills, other drugs and weapons. Nine people, including Chong, were taken into custody, according to the DEA.

Chong was questioned then agents told him he was not a suspect and would be released shortly. He signed some paperwork, was put in handcuffs and sent back to the holding cell.

As the hours dragged into days, he said he kicked and screamed as loud as he could. At one point, he ripped a piece of his jacket off with his teeth and shoved it under the door, hoping someone would spot it and free him.

Chong said he ingested a white powder that he found in the cell. Agents later identified it as methamphetamine. Chong said he ingested it to survive.

The next day, hallucinations started, he said. They included Japanese animation characters who told him to dig into the walls to search for water, which he tried, tearing apart the wall's plastic lining.

People can die from dehydration in as little as three to seven days, said Dr. Wally Ghurabi at UCLA Medical Center in Santa Monica.

Ghurabi said Chong was wise to drink his own urine to stay hydrated.

As the days dragged on, Chong said he accepted that he would die. He considered taking his own life rather than withering away by dehydration.

"I thought `wow, this was a terrible way to go,'" Chong said. "I just wanted to have a little bit of dignity."

He sat in the dark, his hallucinations deepening, his breath getting shorter and shorter, even the urine running out, and he screamed for the agents to at least let him have a quick death.

"That's when the lights turned on and the agents opened the door with very confused looks on their faces," Chong said. "They said, `Who are you? Where'd you come from?'"

Chong was not going to be charged with a crime and should have been released, said a law enforcement official who was briefed on the DEA case and spoke on the condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak about the ongoing investigation.

Chong said he has no criminal record.

U-T San Diego was the first to report the ordeal.

Doctors said Chong's wounds should heal, but he said he still breaks down in tears.

"I'm very glad they found me," he said.

# # # # #

Associated Press writers Alicia A. Caldwell and Kevin Freking in Washington, Elliot Spagat in San Diego, and Amy Taxin in Orange County, California, contributed to this report.

Good example of another Obama leadership failure. Isn't he responsible for the DEA?

seanz
05-04-2012, 07:12 AM
Good example of another Obama leadership failure. Isn't he responsible for the DEA?

Clinton (Bill) and Obama are responsible for 420, the Bushes are responsible for the DEA.

Ian McColgin
05-04-2012, 07:22 AM
Oh, I don't know. Bush 43 had proposed but the Senate bottled-up the nomination to administrator the person Obama eventually got promoted from acting to actual, Michele Marie Leonhart. Ms Leonhart is a typically right leaning law enforcement professional with very strong opinions against states legalizing medical marijuana, so she ordered raids, and pain meds for the elderly and dying. Not what I'd have considered an ideal choise but when you inherit a huge bureaucracy you can't change all the directions of all the agencies, even where you have the political clout and will.

I would hope that Obama's administration uses this horror as a reason to push some very serious policy reform and elimination of some cowboys. Right now, only a few conservative lawmakers make noise about what's wrong with our drug laws but their opinions could change if Obama embraced them.

PeterSibley
05-04-2012, 07:42 AM
The apparently solid US attitude against drug use has always surprised me bearing in mind the strong libertarian tradition in the country .

Osborne Russell
05-04-2012, 10:08 AM
The apparently solid US attitude against drug use has always surprised me bearing in mind the strong libertarian tradition in the country .

There is no such tradition. There is however a very powerful Puritan tradition, which is where the war on drugs and a lot of our culture in general comes from.

The Puritans crossed the sea to live in the woods to get away from "the government" but it wasn't because they were libertarians. Then, over the years, Puritan religion became simply too difficult to follow, and lost its overt support, but the rest of the world view remained.

brad9798
05-04-2012, 10:32 AM
Interesting, Osborne ...

Osborne Russell
05-04-2012, 01:57 PM
Interesting, Osborne ...

Thanks. It's an interesting story which goes all the way back to Martin Luther and has made a lot of strange bedfelllows. Henry 8 found it expedient to be Protestant -- finally, a way to free the state from "the Church" (the only Church). The clergy and the people had their beefs too. So English monarchs went up against the Catholic "the church", but settle for setting up their own "the Church." That wasn't enough for the radical protestants who wanted to purify the Church, hence the name Puritan. Lots of strife in England about all that. Then, colonization of America by Puritans as well as liberals, and revolt against England, and the First Amendment.

Fast forward to Rick Santorum, Catholic hero of rabid American Protestants. The key is they both finally woke up and realized that the separation of church and state is a greater threat to both of them then they are to each other.

When they speak of war on drugs, they don't mean fighting by moral example, or with citizen militia. They mean government action. To them it is self-evident that the fundamental purpose of government is to fight immorality.

Real libertarians have to keep a low profile, as much today as ever, maybe more. Can you imagine if Barack Obama said, I took a scissors to the Bible and cut out the parts I don't like? Thomas Jefferson did.

George Jung
05-04-2012, 02:22 PM
OR, you always bring some interesting insights to the discussion. Thanks.

B_B
05-04-2012, 05:56 PM
...To them it is self-evident that the fundamental purpose of government is to fight immorality...
To put it more realistically: to fight for their sense of morality.


...Can you imagine if Barack Obama said, I took a scissors to the Bible and cut out the parts I don't like? Thomas Jefferson did...
Everyone who 'believes' in the Bible does that to one extent or another philosophically, if not physically. One cannot believe everything in the Bible because there is so much which is contradictory to the lives we live today...so one takes the stuff one likes as truth, the stuff one is unsure of as allegory, and the stuff you don't like one simply forgets.

Lastly, about people and Liberty. We all feel that everyone is at liberty to do as we would do.

htom
05-04-2012, 10:10 PM
...
Real libertarians have to keep a low profile, as much today as ever, maybe more. Can you imagine if Barack Obama said, I took a scissors to the Bible and cut out the parts I don't like? Thomas Jefferson did.

The "real libertarians" lost the Civil War and it's been downhill ever since. The Jefferson Bible is a little more complicated than cutting out the parts he didn't like. Wikipedia: Jefferson Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible) Many whose teachings were taken as the foundation of religions would be shocked at what their teachings have become.

stevebaby
05-04-2012, 10:33 PM
The "real libertarians" lost the Civil War and it's been downhill ever since. The Jefferson Bible is a little more complicated than cutting out the parts he didn't like. Wikipedia: Jefferson Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible) Many whose teachings were taken as the foundation of religions would be shocked at what their teachings have become.Which ones were the "libertarians? The slaves? Or their owners?

B_B
05-04-2012, 10:41 PM
The "real libertarians" lost the Civil War and it's been downhill ever since...
I was going to say you've thrown out some real doozies over the past couple months and that this takes the cake, but Rand Paul Libertarianism would be all for slavery if there was a market for it.

Phillip Allen
05-04-2012, 10:43 PM
I was going to say you've thrown out some real doozies over the past couple months and that this takes the cake, but Rand Paul Libertarianism would be all for slavery if there was a market for it.

I believe there IS a market for it...

Duncan Gibbs
05-04-2012, 11:10 PM
The Puritans crossed the sea to live in the woods to get away from "the government" but it wasn't because they were libertarians. Then, over the years, Puritan religion became simply too difficult to follow, and lost its overt support, but the rest of the world view remained.

I always thought that the Puritans crossed the sea to become "the government" and proceeded to engage in the very form of religious persecution that was not allowed in England at the time... Witch burnings, brandings, executions of Quakers... That sort of thing.

The wiki article is good: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puritan

htom
05-04-2012, 11:24 PM
I was going to say you've thrown out some real doozies over the past couple months and that this takes the cake, but Rand Paul Libertarianism would be all for slavery if there was a market for it.

I think of the "real libertarians" as being those who revolted against the King and established a weak republic with limited and explicit powers composed of States; they lost that in the Civil War subsequent to the North's eventual rejection of the Missouri compromise.

Keith Wilson
05-04-2012, 11:27 PM
Libertarians with slaves? Living in the Flat Mountains and eating kosher cheeseburgers, no doubt.

B_B
05-05-2012, 12:12 AM
I think of the "real libertarians" as being those who revolted against the King and established a weak republic with limited and explicit powers composed of States; they lost that in the Civil War subsequent to the North's eventual rejection of the Missouri compromise.
The question remains - what is libertarian about owning slaves?

To whit, if the "real libertarians" were the founding fathers, and many of the founding fathers owned slaves, and all of the founding fathers agreed to keep slavery as an acceptable mode of commerce and human interaction, what makes their 'founding father' actions "libertarian"? Liberty from one tyranny to impose tyranny on another?

The Missouri Compromise would've ensured slavery in ever more territory. What is libertarian about a multi-state deal which would ensure that significant portions of the people within those states had no rights whatsoever other than to be bought and sold?

Ian McColgin
05-05-2012, 07:54 AM
Founders as libertarians? That's about as rational as saying they were Communists or were Republicans. Libertarians can see, or at least claim, antecedents but those with a shred of historical knowledge won't claims that some admirable historical figure was a Libertarian before there was even such a thing and before social and political conditions made Libertarianism even thinkable.

Duncan Gibbs
05-05-2012, 09:23 AM
I wouldn't have thought of the Puritans as "admirable historical figures," rather historical bigots. Which segues nicely into the "War on Drugs" and this whole debacle: The original motivation for the prohibition of Mary Jane, as I understand it, was that it was a means of controlling the Hispanic population of Santa Fe.

Harry Anslinger somehow managed to jump onto such a tainted bandwagon (prohibition was a popular concept at the time) and grew the concept to the legal behemoth it is today all around the globe. So much so that many places that were, until very recently, bastions of imbibing hashish, such as Afghanistan, Iran and India, now place severe sanctions on the practice. IIRC in Iran capital punishment could apply.

Now if we look at the actual social and medical impact of all drugs, including alcohol and tobacco, and put them on a scale, alcohol and tobacco would have to be the very worst of them. But, as was shown at the end of prohibition, crime rates dropped, organised crime diminished to a vastly lower level, alcoholism decreased, productivity increased, along with legitimate profits and society as a whole was actually far healthier.

I understand that billions upon billions are spent trying to control weed in the US alone. What a criminal waste!

Osborne Russell
05-07-2012, 05:03 PM
OR, you always bring some interesting insights to the discussion. Thanks.

You're welcome. I'm often afraid it will appear I'm trying to change the subject or evade the issue, with all the history. As William Faulkner said, in another context, the past isn't over, it isn't even past.

Osborne Russell
05-07-2012, 05:15 PM
How did we get here from the guy being locked up in San Diego? Anyway . . .


To put it more realistically: to fight for their sense of morality.

What's the diff?



Everyone who 'believes' in the Bible does that to one extent or another philosophically, if not physically. One cannot believe everything in the Bible because there is so much which is contradictory to the lives we live today...so one takes the stuff one likes as truth, the stuff one is unsure of as allegory, and the stuff you don't like one simply forgets.

And modifies and flat out invents out of whole cloth. I was watching some Indians in Mexico one time taking part in a town festival. There was a thing kind of like a parade. The Indian contingent was carrying a bunch of things like symbols on sticks, and were dressed up various ways. What was the deal? Christmas ! I thought, well it's no weirder than Santa and flying reindeer. Westerners think third worlders look funny "grafting Christianity onto their ancient religion" but really . . . flying reindeer?

Osborne Russell
05-07-2012, 05:26 PM
The "real libertarians" lost the Civil War and it's been downhill ever since. The Jefferson Bible is a little more complicated than cutting out the parts he didn't like. Wikipedia: Jefferson Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible) Many whose teachings were taken as the foundation of religions would be shocked at what their teachings have become.

Hm I don't know. Jefferson was as much a libertarian as anyone, in his day, don't you think? And the Confederates were not libertarians at all. They tried to manage their national economy, e.g by banning the importation of luxury goods to free up shipping capacity for arms and food, in order to fight the war. No qualms whatsoever about too much government to fight the Yankees.

As for the scissors Bible deal being more complicated, no doubt it was, but does it make any difference? The original question was why America is anti-drugs if they are so libertarian. My point is, America is arguably less libertarian than ever. John Adams agonized over signing the Alien and Sedition Acts -- you think the Chimp felt that way about the Patriot Act?

Osborne Russell
05-07-2012, 05:29 PM
I always thought that the Puritans crossed the sea to become "the government" and proceeded to engage in the very form of religious persecution that was not allowed in England at the time... Witch burnings, brandings, executions of Quakers... That sort of thing.

Yep. I was just going another step to, what happened when that regime had to be folded into the nation, and when it ultimately died out in its native New England . . . formally. Culturally, it's very much alive, was my point.

Osborne Russell
05-07-2012, 05:33 PM
what makes their 'founding father' actions "libertarian"?

It's not modern libertarianism but it's still a useful distinction. At one end of the spectrum, the radical federalists wanted a radically strong federal government. At the other end is Jefferson, who is trying to figure out a way to make government go away, to the extent possible, however slowly. That end of the spectrum needs a name.

B_B
05-07-2012, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by
Osborne Russellhttp://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=3401132#post3401132)...To them it is self-evident that the fundamental purpose of government is to fight immorality...
Originally Posted by B_B http://forum.woodenboat.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?p=3401334#post3401334)
To put it more realistically: to fight for their sense of morality.

What's the diff?

I should've said that I'd rephrase it that way - nuance is the only diff:
-morality changes through time and place, and different cultures/people have different ideas of what morality is. The 'they' in question are fighting for a certain set of values, not just defending the idea of values.

-it's suggestive of aggression. One seems more benign than the other. A recognition that there's a worldview which is being foisted upon others who might not share the same. If we, as a society, pretty much all shared the same morals it wouldn't seem inappropriate for a group within the larger to ask gov't to police those morals. However, we live in a society with a variety of moral codes so it's much more assertive for a particular group to ask that their particular needs be met at the expense of others'.

It's not only assertive, it's regressive; it goes against what many people think is the essence of the place.

Osborne Russell
05-08-2012, 01:04 PM
One of the big problems, as I see it, is the oscillation of the True Church between wanting to isolate itself to avoid contamination and and the warpath to eliminate the unholy. You never know when they're going to take up the tomahawk.

Boater14
05-08-2012, 01:32 PM
So, this guy, a boy scout no doubt, went to a friends to get high. Cops raid, find 18,000 pills and guns, then the guy just finds meth in his cell and licks it up to survive and you guys are trashing the cops? When exactly did hating the police become part of the rights playbook? Anybody find this story just a little odd? I'm keeping score....help me on this. To be a good right winger you have to believe in god, not evolution or global warming. You have to be for local control unless them locals try to ban assault rifles. You have to be for self sufficiency unless you want to stiff your neighbors with your emergency room visit ....and.....you have to hate the police.......and Obama.

Vince Brennan
05-08-2012, 03:26 PM
Tallboy, I agree.... your compassion is simply breathtaking!

Your last name wouldn't be Roberts, by any chance?