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David G
04-30-2012, 10:46 PM
His one-time head speechwriter takes issue with some comments:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/04/even-jimmy-carter/256558/#.T58d0nYiQqA.facebook


Mitt Romney informs us (http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/04/even-jimmy-carter/256558/thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/30/romney-says-he-would-have-ordered-bin-laden-killing) that the raid that took out Osama bin Laden one year ago was no big deal, because "even Jimmy Carter would have given that order."

Grrrrr.

1) Jimmy Carter is a graduate of the U.S. Naval Academy who spent ten years in the uniformed service of his country. As far as I can tell, this is ten years more than the cumulative service of members of the Romney clan. Obviously you don't have to be a veteran to have judgments about military policy or criticisms of others' views. But when it comes to casual slurs about someone else's strength or resolve, you want to be careful, as a guy on the sidelines, sounding this way about people who have served.

2) Jimmy Carter did indeed make a gutsy go/no-go call. It turned out to be a tactical, strategic, and political disaster. You can read the blow-by-blow in Mark Bowden's retrospective of "The Desert One Debacle (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2006/05/the-desert-one-debacle/4803/)." With another helicopter, the mission to rescue U.S. diplomats then captive in Teheran might well have succeeded -- and Carter is known still to believe that if the raid had succeeded, he would probably have been re-elected. Full discussion another time, but I think he's right. (Even with the fiasco, and a miserable "stagflation" economy, the 1980 presidential race was very close until the very end.)

3) Precisely because of the consequences of Carter's failure, Obama was the more daring in making his go/no-go decision. That's the case I argued last year (http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/barack-obama/8695/), and nothing I've learned since then changes my view. As a college student, Obama had seen a marginally popular Democratic president come to ruin because he approved a helicopter-based secret mission into hostile Middle Eastern terrain. Obama went ahead with a helicopter-based secret mission into nominally "allied" territory, also with huge potential for trouble if things had gone wrong.

4) And while the Osama killing reflected a decade's worth of intelligence and effort from people of both parties, and of no party, it happened on Obama's watch. Is there any doubt that if it had happened on Bush's, or on a President John McCain's, it would have been the centerpiece of every political speech and commercial? Was there a single speech in the Republicans' 2004 convention -- in New York -- that did not begin and end with a reference to 9/11 (http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2004-08-29/news/0408290103_1_terrorism-republican-convention-bush), or the removal of Saddam Hussein?

Cuyahoga Chuck
04-30-2012, 11:06 PM
I became diappointed with some of my Democraric presidential choices but I never, ever, had second thoughts about my votes for Jimmy Carter. To me he was brought down by events he had no control over. Having to run against a handsome, overage, movie star was one of them.

purri
05-01-2012, 12:17 AM
The story is that Carter was white-anted by Reagan "insiders" in the administration.

brad9798
05-01-2012, 12:24 AM
I became diappointed with some of my Democraric presidential choices but I never, ever, had second thoughts about my votes for Jimmy Carter. To me he was brought down by events he had no control over. Having to run against a handsome, overage, movie star was one of them.

I AGREE Chuck ... much like W being dealt 9/11 ... or, do you want to argue that THAT was W's fault ... :(

Waddie
05-01-2012, 12:46 AM
I voted for Carter. He was the first candidate I ever saw in person. But Carter's "Malaise Speech" was a total turn off to me. It was like he had given up. It even showed in his facial expressions and posture while giving that speech. I hadn't been married long, had a baby on the way, and wanted to believe there was some kind of future out there for us. I liked what Reagan was saying. He was much more upbeat. At least he acted like things could get better. I voted for Reagan. Of course, it was the days of double digit inflation and interest rates. Stagflation. I understand the angst of the current day occupiers......young and worried.

regards,
Waddie

brad9798
05-01-2012, 01:05 AM
I voted for Carter ... in school, mind you, but I did. ;)

Bob Adams
05-01-2012, 05:56 AM
I voted for him also. He wasn't the most effective POTUS, but he was a good man of high morals who, I beleive, did his very best, and for the right reasons. Unlikely to see another like him.

Ian McColgin
05-01-2012, 06:50 AM
Sometimes leadership is not about being right. Among my liberal organizer friends, I was one of the few Carter supporters. This was because I saw up close how deeply and profoundly he was beginning to turn around federal agencies that had been either moribund or downright corrupt - BLM, CPSC, even the Army Corps of Engineers.

Also, while his agencies didn't think of a working response (Gov McCall's energy guru Joel Schatz did) Carter got the point of the "Odd/Even" gas purchase plan. He was probably the smartest and most often right person to occupy the White House but he did not inspire. Reagan was glib but even dumber than FDR, wrong on almost everything, willing (as in Iran Contra) to countanance treason to win an election, and yet a leader we followed to our harm.

PeterSibley
05-01-2012, 07:13 AM
My favorite US President.

John Smith
05-01-2012, 07:52 AM
I became diappointed with some of my Democraric presidential choices but I never, ever, had second thoughts about my votes for Jimmy Carter. To me he was brought down by events he had no control over. Having to run against a handsome, overage, movie star was one of them.

I like Carter. However, he missed his opportuntiy to win a second term in the debates. Reagan had just answered a question wherein he said he would cut spending bhy 3% and cut revenue by 10%. This gave Carter the opportunity to ask how that math works. Instead he went on to his practiced talking points and Reagan's math went unchallenged.

Concordia 33
05-01-2012, 08:24 AM
His one-time head speechwriter takes issue with some comments:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/04/even-jimmy-carter/256558/#.T58d0nYiQqA.facebook

Voted for Carter twice and wished I hadn't. Seems more like you are defending President Obama than you are President Carter.

David W Pratt
05-01-2012, 08:49 AM
I voted for Carter because I thought a businessman would be good for the economy,
I was wrong.

Osborne Russell
05-01-2012, 08:50 AM
I . . . wanted to believe . . .

And what could be wrong with wanting to believe?

Concordia 33
05-01-2012, 08:51 AM
I voted for Carter because I thought a businessman would be good for the economy,
I was wrong.


Ironically I voted for him for the same reason that people vote for President Obama now -the "hope and change" thing. What a disaster, he was ineffectual and rode the country into an economic "malaise" and gas rationing.

L.W. Baxter
05-01-2012, 10:21 AM
Carter very quietly had Big Brass Ones. That was part of his problem; he was, maybe, over-willing to make risky decisions.

Mitt Romney is a moral cipher and spineless turd.

Gerarddm
05-01-2012, 11:14 AM
Right guy, wrong time. He has been more effective as an ex-POTUS than in the office itself. But no one can ever take away the Camp David Accords from him.

pefjr
05-01-2012, 11:19 AM
Jimmy Carter was the "Mr. Clean", the country thought they needed after Nixon and VNam. Turned out, that was all he was. I voted for him twice. Since that time, the MIC has gained so much strength, a "Jimmy Carter" could not ever be elected, as Ron Paul's lack of support has shown. The order to take out OBL? Would Jimmy Carter have given that order? Obama's use of predator Drones and violation of International Laws goes without being deeply questioned. Not very likely under Jimmy Carter and the Cold War. Today, any President would issue the order, but not in JC days. Today the President works for the MIC. The MIC gave the order, ....indirectly. The MIC is ordering Obama around just like a lap dog. The profits are soaring. Congress prays every morning, then sits on their can during the day. The SC doesn't even know their Constitutional Duty.

Concordia 33
05-01-2012, 11:22 AM
Carter very quietly had Big Brass Ones. That was part of his problem; he was, maybe, over-willing to make risky decisions.

Mitt Romney is a moral cipher and spineless turd.

Yes and President Obama is so much better? He never put out a healthcare plan, he just asked congress to do it -he didn't want top put his reputation on the line - very cowardly.

When are you going to get it ----- THEY AR ALL BAD.

Cuyahoga Chuck
05-01-2012, 12:01 PM
I AGREE Chuck ... much like W being dealt 9/11 ... or, do you want to argue that THAT was W's fault ... :(

It wasn't Bush's fault and I don't remember anybody claiming it was. Of course what Bush started after the attacks is still going on today. He got sucked in by Cheney and Rummy which doesn't say much for his leadership capabilites.
We can trace the whole 9/11 scenerio back to the Clinton years. There is that time period when Atta and his compartiots came here and started servailling possible targets. It was EXACTLY concurrent with the attempts by Starr and the Republicans in congress to bring Clinton down with threats of prosecution and even impeachment. You can't expect a president to keep his eye on the ball when he is looking at things like jail, disbarment and impeachment. What the Republicans did was create a Rightwing circus that we paid for in blood few years later.

Osborne Russell
05-01-2012, 12:04 PM
Ironically I voted for him for the same reason that people vote for President Obama now -the "hope and change" thing. What a disaster, he was ineffectual and rode the country into an economic "malaise" and gas rationing.

Why then Obama rode the country into killing Bin Laden.

How did Carter ride the country into gas rationing?

Cuyahoga Chuck
05-01-2012, 12:07 PM
And Carter is one of a list of Democratic politicians who have won a Nobel prize. Wonder why the man who supposedly brought the international communism down didn't get one. Did those foreigners see something our voters didn't see?

Osborne Russell
05-01-2012, 12:10 PM
Since that time, the MIC has gained so much strength, a "Jimmy Carter" could not ever be elected.

Jimmy Carter wanted the MX missile and oil shale, two of the greates MIC adventures ever conceived. I think we all underestimate their power. It seemed clear to me that they had co-opted Carter, not with money, almost certainly, but they're not that primitive. They spend money to get to know their audience, and clearly it works.

L.W. Baxter
05-01-2012, 12:17 PM
...When are you going to get it ----- THEY AR ALL BAD.

Lots of conservatives screaming this baloney this go 'round. Their candidate is an obvious dog, and not dependably ideological, so now "THEY AR ALL BAD!" lmao.

Concordia 33
05-01-2012, 12:20 PM
Lots of conservatives screaming this baloney this go 'round. Their candidate is an obvious dog, and not dependably ideological, so now "THEY AR ALL BAD!" lmao.

Yes and President Obama is such a great leader. "How's that hopey changey thing workin for ya?" I'd include ROFLMAO in my response, but it always seems trite and a little like whistling in the graveyard. But when you do it it has gravitas.

Concordia 33
05-01-2012, 12:22 PM
Jimmy Carter wanted the MX missile and oil shale, two of the greates MIC adventures ever conceived. I think we all underestimate their power. It seemed clear to me that they had co-opted Carter, not with money, almost certainly, but they're not that primitive. They spend money to get to know their audience, and clearly it works.


I actually believe that President Carter's Nobel was deserved. He was a bad president but he did some good things too. Even a blind squirrel gathers a nut every once in awhile.

brad9798
05-01-2012, 12:49 PM
And Carter is one of a list of Democratic politicians who have won a Nobel prize. Wonder why the man who supposedly brought the international communism down didn't get one. Did those foreigners see something our voters didn't see?

The MAN who (helped) bring it down was not interested in a Nobel prize ... are saying, CHUCK, that the Eastern block was good ... or not worthy of bringing down?

I can tell you personally that MILLIONS upon MILLIONS were so grateful that the wall fell ...

Obviously, you have OTHER agendas with regards to freeing MILLIONS!!!

THAT is disappointing. WOW! :(

L.W. Baxter
05-01-2012, 12:49 PM
...But when you do it it has gravitas.

Thanks for noticing.

pefjr
05-01-2012, 01:10 PM
And Carter is one of a list of Democratic politicians who have won a Nobel prize. Wonder why the man who supposedly brought the international communism down didn't get one. Did those foreigners see something our voters didn't see? One of the four did. Nixon, Reagan, and Margaret Thatcher should have one too. You wonder and wonder some more, and if you figure out why your idol MIC puppet Obama deserves one, let me know.

Cuyahoga Chuck
05-01-2012, 08:50 PM
The MAN who (helped) bring it down was not interested in a Nobel prize ... are saying, CHUCK, that the Eastern block was good ... or not worthy of bringing down?

I can tell you personally that MILLIONS upon MILLIONS were so grateful that the wall fell ...

Obviously, you have OTHER agendas with regards to freeing MILLIONS!!!

THAT is disappointing. WOW! :(

I was certainly glad. I have a whole village full of relatives in Slovakia. I was there in '91 and '93 and even had a brunch with a second cousin who, I was told, was a big time commie. All that is past and the village and the country are doing much better now.
Back to the question about Reagan. If he really did bring down international communism why didn't he get a Nobel? The Swedes live cheek by jowel with the USSR, Poland and East Germany. All communist states. Did they plug their ears with wax so they wouldn't hear "Mr. Gorbachev, bring down this wall!" Or words to that effect. Reagan was smooth, handsome, a born salesman but no Nobel. Didn't those foreigners know that Reagan's name would eventually be plastered on half the new construction in Washington and quite a bit of the old?

Keith Wilson
05-01-2012, 09:00 PM
Wonder why the man who supposedly brought the international communism down . . . The change in eastern Europe was a very good thing, but Reagan deserves credit for the disintegration of European Communism like a man caught outside in a thunderstorm deserves credit for getting wet. He was there when it happened.

pefjr
05-01-2012, 09:42 PM
Reagan had charm , world class charm, top grade charm. He had something no politician had before, Mohammed Ali had it, Joe DiMaggio had it, and now Obama has it. It's how they used it that matters in History.

Hank Rearden
05-01-2012, 09:54 PM
I saw this somewhere and it seems to fit.


Giving Obama credit for killing Bin Laden is like going to McDonalds and giving Ronald McDonald credit for your hamburger. It's the guy in the back that flips the burger that did the hard work; not the clown.

Keith Wilson
05-01-2012, 11:20 PM
He had something no politician had before,I don't think so. FDR definitely had it, Kennedy to some degree, probably Andrew Jackson in a rough down-home sort of way. Not so unique, although it works a bit differently in the age of television.

Cuyahoga Chuck
05-01-2012, 11:21 PM
I saw this somewhere and it seems to fit.

Wasn't you ever in the military, Henry? Well they have what is called "the chain of command". When I was in it was;
Watson
Waters
Wheeler
Taylor
These guys were all "star soldiers"i.e. generals. But everyone of them was in hock to the president of the United States, John Kennedy.
Kennedy proposed and the chain of command responded. Some of the stuff Kennedy proposed, like sending soldiers to Oxford Mississippi to quell racial unrest, was definitely not in the army's playbook but they did it.
BTW, your comment is kind of snarky. You one of those that hates to see the president win? Better get used to it. There ain't gonna' be a Mormon in your future unless you marry one. Good luck with that.

Osborne Russell
05-02-2012, 01:56 PM
I actually believe that President Carter's Nobel was deserved. He was a bad president but he did some good things too. Even a blind squirrel gathers a nut every once in awhile.

How did he ride the country into gas rationing?

pefjr
05-02-2012, 09:13 PM
73, or 79/80? Ah.. memories, gas went to $1, interest rates went to 20%, In 83 I bought my first house , at 12% interest. That was Reagan. Gold went to 900 oz, silver went to $50 oz, as the Hunt Brothers tried to buy it all. Now, let see some partisans come in here and try to lay blame on Reagan. Come on boys, here is your huckleberry.