Laying Down "How to build a Wooden Boat" by David C. "Bud McIntosh

[Schoonerman1]

Good day, I have just received "How to Build a Wooden Boat" by David C. "Bud McIntosh. I wanted to practice Laying down. I got the basic grid down with ease; however, when it comes to the Stations, I can not figure out the distances between them. Are they stated in the table of offset, which is shown on page 2 of the book? I used the Sheer offsets but I feel that I came short, and I will start over. From looking at the diagram, it looks like there is a 4’ space between each of the numbered Stations. What I can not get, are the distance between the Stem and Station #1, and Station #8 and the Transom. How is distance found?

Thanks

[NormMessinger]

The spacing of the station lines were shown on the plans of the two or three sets I've seen and not in the table of offsets. Unless those distances are given in the text, and I didn't see them in a quick scan of the pages, you are out of luck. If you are just doing this for fun you might be able to scale from the half bredths or water lines to get close enough to have a go.

-Norm

[John E Hardiman]

Station spacing, stem, and transom dimensions should be found on the profile drawing or sometimes on the waterlines. If they aren't in the book you're SOL.

[JimD]

I have the book also, and a fine read it is, but not with me at the moment. In all plans by all designers I have seen the distance between the stations is usually listed separately and not with the offsets where you would hope to find it. I assume this is a designer's way of protecting him/herself, for without the distances the offset table is useless. On a complete set of plans it will be included - somewhere. jimd

[schoonertack]

Nah, your not really SOL, Just take a knowen dimension Length overall or length on the water and divide by your number of stations, and if you really have one footitis increase fractionally

[ion barnes]

Your post has got me trashing the house looking for my copy, howevver while I catch my breath I will tell you that as I understand for many designs, there are only 10 stations. So you can, by looking at the placement of the first and the last station, probably determine the spacing. Like if the spacings are equal over the entire lenght and because you know the distance, just divide by the # of spaces. Double check by comparing with a known measurment. Scaling is an inportant tool when working with plans that leave somethings to be desired. Some designs will have an extra station where there is a lot of change in shape and that station may or may not follow the numerical sequence. It could be listed as A, 2A, or 2.5 and then you might have to check its location.

[Bruce Taylor]

I wanted to practice Laying down.This calls for a cheap wisecrack, don't you think? I'm surprised at you guys. Do I have to do everything around here?

[Bayboat]

Laying down, which you do with boats, and lying down, which you do with your body, are two different things. Of course in laying down you do spend a lot of time on your knees. tongue.gif tongue.gif

[Bruce Taylor]

Bayboat, I've been eavesdropping on Americans for decades now, and I know for a true fact that you guys are always "layin' down to take a rest," and "fixing to lay down n' die" and tellin' as how one day "the lion's a-gonna lay down with the lamb, Hallelujah!"

After all I've heard, I'm ready to lay down the law: "lay down" is intransitive, especially when you're using up bandwith with wiseacre comments. :D

So, then...when Schoonerman says he needs practise "laying down," what do you say next? (joke, please...)

[ 11-29-2002, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Donn]

It's not quite that simple, Bruce.

"Usage Note: Lay (“to put, place, or prepare”) and lie (“to recline or be situated”) have been confused for centuries; evidence exists that lay has been used to mean “lie” since the 1300s. Why? First, there are two lays. One is the base form of the verb lay, and the other is the past tense of lie. Second, lay was once used with a reflexive pronoun to mean “lie” and survives in the familiar line from the child's prayer Now I lay me down to sleep; lay me down is easily shortened to lay down. Third, lay down, as in She lay down on the sofa sounds the same as laid down, as in I laid down the law to the kids. ·Lay and lie are most easily distinguished by usage. Lay is a transitive verb and takes a direct object. Lay and its principal parts (laid, laying) are correctly used in the following examples: He laid (not lay) the newspaper on the table. The table was laid for four. Lie is an intransitive verb and cannot take an object. Lie and its principal parts (lay, lain, lying) are correctly used in the following examples: She often lies (not lays) down after lunch. When I lay (not laid) down, I fell asleep. The rubbish had lain (not laid) there a week. I was lying (not laying) in bed when he called. ·There are a few exceptions to these rules. The phrasal verb lay for and the nautical use of lay, as in lay at anchor, though intransitive, are standard."

Now, as to your question about what schoonerman meant by "laying down," there is more than one appropriate and correct meaning for the phrasal verb "lay down." In nautical terminology, "lay" has many uses, some transitive and some intransitive. By itself, in nautical usage, "Lay" means to put oneself in the position indicated. You may "lay to," "lay up" or "lay by." In general terminology, "laying down" could mean to store for the future. The same definition is applied to "laying in", "laying away" and "laying up" (not it's other, nautical, definition. :D

Source (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lay)

[Bruce Taylor]

Hee hee.

Well, if I can't goad you into making a corny joke, at least we can kill off some bandwidth with a pointless argument about colloquial usage.

Alrighty, Donn...here's a citation for you. It's from the ballad of Lord Randall (Child #12, the inspiration for Dylan's Hard Rain)

"Where did you go today, Henry, my son?
Where did you go today, my pretty one?
To the woods, Mother. To the woods, Mother.
O Mother dear, I’m so very sick; I think I’m gonna lay down & die."

And here, for good measure, is Louisiana Red, doing Too Poor to Die:

"I jumped off my death bed
Cause I too poor to die
I's in trouble
And I'll tell you the reason why
I'm just too poor people
I'm too poor to go lay down and die"

That cat is so cool he barely needs verbs.

I can dig up enough intransitive usage to bury Fowler (or any other prescriptive grammarian you can name) ten feet deep!!

[ 11-29-2002, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Bayboat]

OK, Bruce. Does a boat have to get laid before you can start building it?
The difference between "lie" and "lay" is that when you do the former you go to sleep, whereas doing the latter is great fun.
The careless expression of language is ages old, and I should know better than try to correct anyone's usage. Careless usage is old, and common, but that's not a good reason to repeat it.
Oh, and in Hawaii people have a lot of fun with "lei."
Donn: Another nautical usage: "I don't think we can lay that point." It gets complicated.

[ 12-01-2002, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Bayboat ]

[Bruce Taylor]

Well, I'm taking the long philological view, here. The marm will insist that we don't use no double negatives in English (it's OK for the French, though). But the philologist knows that double negatives have been standard in various dialects of English since the earliest days. Double negatives were standard in Anglo-Saxon (Old English), and have never entirely disappeared.

Using "lay down" intransitively isn't "careless"...it's just good local usage. In fact, if you're singing the blues, it would be really sloppy to "lie down and die." I'd be obliged to throw beernuts at you until you left the stage.

I'll see if I can dig up the conjugations for "licgan," the West Saxon root verb for both lie and lay. I'll bet there's a really tangled history to this word.

[ken mcclure]

SFX: sirens and klaxons hooting
.....dull bell-like clanking sound
.....electronic voice shouting "Thread creep-thread creep..."

The boat is 39' and he shows 8 stations between the stem and transom. If you look at figure 1-3 on page 7 (in my copy anyway) you will note that the distance from the stem to station 1 and from station 8 to the transom are not the same as the other station spacing.

Now. Figure 1-3 also shows that the sheer at station number 2 is almost dead-on the station 4 line. So if you take the sheer halfbreath at station 2 (3' 11") plus half the width of the stem you should have the regular station spacing, or pretty durn close.

Measure the station spacing on the drawing and figure out the scale. Then measure the stem-to-station 1 and station 8-to-transom dimensions and apply that scale to get their measurements.

To double check, multiply the regular station spacing by 7, add the stem-to-station 1 and the station 8-to-transom figures and you should come up with 39'.

While I might not build a full size boat this way, you should be able to get close enough to practice lofting and maybe build a model.

[ 12-01-2002, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: ken mcclure ]

[ion barnes]

If you plan to do a fair amount of expanding or reducing a plan size, the old method is to obtain perportional dividers. With them/it you can verify that the plan you are working from is not distorted which is a distinct possibility. Another way of protecting copright I guess. Dont try the photocopier method, thats where error really comes on strong. I have not tried a pantograph as it is not infinite as to the adjustment like the perportional dividers. Must add that the dividers only expand or reduce between 1x and 10x so you might have to do it twice. Big deal, unless this is your R&R.