Plans for a 33-35' gaff cutter

[Pekka Huhta]

I have long been searching for plans for a pilot cutter / smack / workboat with no great success.

A few sketches of the lines I am searching for can be seen below.

Requirements:

- Plank on frame, completely traditional construction.
- Length 33-35'.
- vertical stem, deep forefoot, long overhang aft.

Mostly I am looking for original drawings. As those can not be easily found from internet, I would ask for your help to locate a source for original drawings. Museums, collections, individual drawings, anything.

Can anyone help?

Pekka Huhta

http://www.puuvene.net/apu/Lines.jpg

[Seppo]

Hi

Have you asked the NMM in London... I'd guess they could have a few...

I've been wondering going a bit more backwards, something like 1768 http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif the 'Architectura Navalis Mercatoria' has a couple of nice-sized examples. Asked the stockholm maritime museum about them, and a couple of boatbuilders - no specs of any kind found; so totally authentic version would be impossible... would need to dimension them by todays standards.

Seppo

[Ed Burnett]

Pekka,

Firstly I should declare an interest in that I am a yacht designer working in this area of design. I recognise this forum is not for self promotion - this is my first post and if anyone thinks I am sailing a little to close to the edge of the rules please let me know and accept my appologies.

Your sketches are pretty good examples of three rather different forms with differing origins:

The first is pretty much a smack type, or similar fishing boat shape. Of the three, this is the one which will have been most numerous in the size range you mention.

The second is more pilot cutter territory, and will work best in larger sizes (say 50' LOD)

The third is more yachty than the others and getting pretty "plank on edge".

Plans for the first two will be tricky to find as the boats will have been built from half models or by eye. Anything you find is more likley to be a post build record of one or two examples. I have a some pilot cutter lines on my computer, and scantlings etc. can easily be figured out to be more or less "authentic". The problem with the pilot cutter type will be the size issue - any pilot cutter of this shape will have been rather larger than you have in mind and the difference is really too big for simple scaling processes. You would have to re-shape the hull to give the appropriate proportions of displacement and stability.

You may well be able to find original drawings for the more yachty types, I have before me John Leather's book on Albert Strange which has the lines of Claude Worth's Tern III. Again, rather larger than you mention but similar smaller boats should not be hard to find. The problem of this type at 35' is that it really won't be a very big boat. Beam will be minimal, and stability becomes something of an issue.

One last thing (before you doze off), with the smack and yacht types be ready for weather helm in spades. A deep forefoot is good for some things, but helm balance is not one of them. It is a problem with these types because a long counter with no boom over it doesn't look that good and a long boomed mainsail pushes the centre of area of the rig rather too far aft. With the pilot cutter form this is less of a problem, the counter is shorter and although the forefoot is deep, the heel is deeper!

Hope this helps a bit with the types if not the search.

ED.

[Greg H]

Here is a link to a Smack site, belonging to our own Smacksman: http://www.alberta-ck318.freeserve.co.uk/
---Good luck

[ken mcclure]

Take a look at Paul Gartside. His boats approach your idea, albeit with less overhang in the stern.

http://www.gartsideboats.com/catsail6.php#37mtrsail

[Ian McColgin]

Ahoy Hekka,

Glad Ed weighed in as right now your eye is firmly on the shere and above water profile and there is so much more below.

There must be gobs of boats where the lines were taken off by some more or less contemporary nauticle historian even though the boats were likely built to a half-model, if that.

My own prejudice: While the very narrow plank on edge types were built to a theory of speed, they are generally way too cramped for cruising, very wet since they go through waves rather than over, and not very nimble. The smack and pilot models are better for cruising, with the pilot probably better developed and more readily handled. Also, there's plenty of good pilot model info, including the current WB.

Just as the BFH is the tool of last resort in projects that are otherwise at an impass, the BFB(owsprit) will take some of the gripe out of a boat with a deep forefoot. Even though footropes and heroic crew are tresdashing, and even though a ring around the sprit and sliding jib tack are traditional, were I you, I'd put the jib and flying jib out on tried and true Merriman type furlers. Since there will be some sag on the luff, threaten physical violence to your sailmaker if that's what it takes to get a little hollow on the luff . . .

G'luck

[jf.pleuvret]

You can have many informations in the Dixon KEMP's boot, "Manuel of yacht and boat sailing"

[Thad]

Good to hear from you Ed. Funny thing, I (owner of SEA HARMONY) went right to Albert Strange myself. Sea Harmony is like Charm II a 33' yawl version on the Venture design, all similar to Sheila II and other Strange designs. BETTY, like Tern III, is over 40'but is a cutter along the lines shown. SEA HARMONY does not have the deep forefoot of the upper drawings, but like Strange's other deeper ballasted cruisers has a fine fair sweep below the bow. Betty has a look of almost plumb but sweeps aft below the waterline so I would imagine her quiet finely balanced. With her jibs and topsail there is plenty of room to play with the balance under sail as well. With almost 13'beam on 44' waterline she is far from a narrow boat. SEA HARMONY being 7' 8" on a 25' wl is narrow but not really tight as a one or two person cruising boat. And she is not at all tender. Good luck.

[bromleigh]

Has anybody any experience with the plans for a Falmouth Cutter" WB "98", by Paine???
Pekka....you might look at John Hess in the UK..

[Ed Burnett]

A couple more things brought to mind by other replies...

The plank on edge "fashion" resulted from the old Thames Tonnage rule, which penalised beam very heavily. Hence boats designed to race under it become un-naturally skinny. They were not actually that fast and had a reputation for sailing on their ears. As with many racing fashions, cruising boats of the time were influenced and although there are many good boats of this type out there they do tend towards the characteristics mentioned by Ian.

By the way Ian, I assume "Merriman furler" is Yankee speak for Wykeham-Martin. Good bit of kit providing you can persuade your sailmaker to use the right sort of luff wire and that you roll it up the right way round. Put it on the traveller you also mention and it makes life a lot easier when you have to change jibs. I never could understand why you Americans insist on journying to the end of your bowsprits just when it's getting nasty.....

As for Thad's boat, I think I may have been aboard about eleven years ago while I was working at G&B on Martha's Vineyard. My father owned Redwing (ex. Cherub III , Strange's last boat) at the time and I also know Charm II. We had a lot of fun with her and won quite a few races. The Strange boats and the others you mention are all pretty moderate compared to the most extreme of the plank on edge cutters - all these things go by degrees. Redwing is pretty stiff also, but she was built with a draught of 5'2" despite the fact that the original Strange drawings show only 3'10". Interesting stuff.

[Henning 4148]

Hello Pekka

Pilot Cutters were already mentioned above, some of the very best are the Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters. There is at least one in the size range you are looking at, only she has a transom stern and not a counter. The last time I saw her, Breeze was laid up for restauration in Porlock Weir in Cornwall, UK. All information required for a duplication could propably be gotten from the original. Porlock Weir has a sailing club, very nice and helpfull people, they would know about the current status.

Still, a counter does look nice ... .

[Pekka Huhta]

At first, a warm thanks to everyone. Seems that the old working craft has many friends...

I have a few drawings of these boats I have drawn when I was only six. They all had enormous gaff rigs with all the imaginable topsails and long, rounded overhangs. I guess I have lost my mind already then.

I have previously been involved in repairing, building and sailing traditional Finnish craft, different bits of our maritime heritage from 17' net boats to 100' schooners. One of my favourites among these boats can be found at
http://www.puuvene.net/hpp/lyra.htm . Several boats like this have been re-constructed during the past few years and that was one of the main reasons which encouraged me to start a project on my own.

Although it would sound fair to stick to our own Finnish boat models and enrich our own maritime heritage in that way I seem to have fallen for these cutters. Aesthetics seem to beat any reason against one. And, there is the fact that a Finnish "storbat" like the one on above pages has only a crawling headroom for four and I don't define that as cruising comfort... http://media5.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

The smack approach has been the one I have given the most thought. There is only one problem: While the pilot cutter would have most pleasing lines to my eye, I admit that they are too large for my purposes. In a smack there is always something that is not right. The sheerline just seems to end somewhere aft of the boat and I really could use a bit more freeboard aft. And the overhang is - for most of the boats - a tad too flat on the underside.

Still I would rather build something historically correct instead of just my interpretation of a historic craft. And this is the reason for asking your help: I know that my boat is lurking on some lost drawer in a museum and I have to find her.

I am not sure wether I find her or not, but if I end up ordering a totally new design I want to be sure I have all the available information on similar boats.

Thank you for your help - and let's not end the discussion here.

Pekka

[HOWdie]

Check out the Dec. 2001 issue of Maritime Life and Traditions. This issue has some nice drawings and discussions on the old smacks. Hope this helps

[Mirelle]

Following in the wake of two contributions by Ed Burnett, whom I have never met or corresponded with but whom I recognise as almost certainly the leading designer of this sort of boat working today, I will try to tread carefully!

I understand that you are looking for an actual working boat design, rather than a gaff cutter yacht.

I think that Mr Burnett is right and the working boats do have significant drawbacks when used as yachts; the only type that can "convert straight over" are the pilot cutter types and they are larger, 45-55ft.

A smack's counter is too wide, too flat and too low (so that it slams in any seaway) because it made a good platform for fishing from. All these boats have internal ballast and "crawling room" rather than "standing room" down below. They have strong weather helm, and strong weather vaning, as Michael Frost called it, so that if the helmsman went overboard they would hang in irons and allow him to swim back; this is a very awkward characteristic in a yacht.

The designer of my own boat, William Maxwell Blake, spent a good deal of his retirement in the 1930's taking off the lines and recording the construction of British working craft; he was commended for this by Howard Chappelle. Blake's drawings are in the Science Museum, I think; they are quite widely reproduced, having originally been published in a series in the Yachting Monthly.

The boatbuilding firm of Shuttlewoods at Paglesham, Essex, UK, built a few "smack yachts" in the 1930's, the prettiest and most sucessful of these is the Bird of Dawning, now owned by Julian Mannering, son of her first owner, in Kent, UK. She is 28ft on deck and behaves quite well compared to a smack. It is fair to say that whilst she looks like a smack above water, she does not look so smack like under water; her near sister Secret is more smack like and a bit less sucessful as a yacht.

There are a good number of drawings of Victorian yachts with straight stems, square forefoots (forefeet?) and counter sterns; one good place to look is in the "plates" section of early editions of Dixon Kemp. My 11th edition has some in amongst the steam yachts, 300 ton schooners, one-raters and so on so an earlier edition would probably be better.

However, as Mr Burnett has politely suggested, these are probably absolute swine from the sailing point of view!

If you wanted a 37ft gaff rigged yacht with a counter stern (but not a straight stem!)which is a really good boat and very light on the helm, I have the drawings and offsets of mine, passed on by the first owner who had her built in 1937. I have no idea what the copyright position would be, however.

[johnw]

If you're willing to forego the counter, there's a nice plumb-stemmed American workboat about the right size, with plenty of drag to the keel, which helps with manueverability and helm balance. Chapelle shows a Boston hooker on pg. 279 of American Small Sailing Craft that is 34 ft. by 10 ft. and has enough depth of hold to give you standing headroom with a manageable cabin. Offsets and a sail plan are included, and if you have trouble with the tiny plans in the book, full-sized plans are available from the Smithsonian.

[Pekka Huhta]

Once again, thank you for your replies.

The crew will be for most of the time just me and my wife. Heavy weather helm is a problem and I am glad that it was pointed out. This was just the kind of information I was looking for.

Working boats may indeed have their drawbacks when used as yachts, but, after all I am looking for a working boat, not a yacht.

I am ready to cope with the drawbacks of a working boat, at least to a certain extent. For example standing headroom is not a necessity. Just as well I want to keep the rig as simple and plain as possible. Sagging forestays don't bother me half as much as running backstays do. On the other hand, very heavy weather helm is something a short-handed crew won't be happy with.

There are many reasons for looking after a working boat. First of all, I have been interested in working sailboats and ships since I learnt to carve my first toy boat at the age of four. "Real sailing" in my opinion has always served some other purpose than just sailing: carrying cargo, fishing, piloting... Just sailing around, yachting does not have the same spirit for me.

Of course I won't be carrying a trawl in my boat, not to speak about the non-existent oysters in our shores, but I want to be able to toy with the idea that I could do it if I had to. At least to have that spirit in my boat.

Another motive for building a working boat is simplicity. There isn't a single part which couldn't be built with simple tools. No glossy brightwork, not a single piece of mahogany. Just oak, pine, Stockholm tar and paint. A yacht built with the same materials would look crude.

I just ordered two books, 'Inshore Craft of the British Isles' and 'The Lancashire Nobby' to go on with the search. At least they would show me more alternatives (and a head full of conflicting ideas).

I have been pointed out that also there are a lot of very potential boats among the French working boats. Does anyone know a source foor information about these? Chasse-Marée (http://www.chasse-maree.com) seems to have some information, but I am not too eager to just buy a dozen magazines blind-folded and see if there is something for me.

Pekka

[Mirelle]

Le Chasse-Maree is an excellent publication, up to the same standard as Wooden Boat, and they certainly can put you in touch with French working boat designs, one of which might very well suit your purposes. It is of course in French.

Which reminds me that in the 1920's my father crewed for Ralph Swann on the latter's "Marie Michon", a 28ft cutter designed by Bevil Warrington Smyth on the lines of a French working boat of the period, for a voyage from Lowestoft to Mariehamm, to see Captain Ericsson's fleet. Captain Ericsson was very complimentary about the "little boat" and offered to lay her up for them over the winter; when they left by ferry he was sailing her round the anchorage singlehanded! They picked her up next Spring and she had been beautifully fitted out by one of his square rig bosuns!

Her lines and sail plan are published in one of FB Cooke's books - but transom stern, not counter!

The Morecambe Bay prawners are pretty and fast but have very little space below deck, as they are shoal drafted boats like the Essex smacks. If you have deep water, as I think you do, you might find a French design more suited to you.

[johnw]

'Inshore craft' is a lovely book, and there is a Conwy Nobby that is about the right size in it. An American building a workboat in this size range almost invariably choses a Friendship sloop, but those have clipper bows, and you've been dreaming of plumb stems since you were 6.

[This message has been edited by johnw (edited 12-13-2001).]

[Crip]

Wonder if this interests you...
http://www.moorey.net/crip/images/boats/plans/essexsmack.jpg

Essex Smack (http://www.ten-wolde.net/Smack/drawings/ESYdraw.html)

Crip (http://www.moorey.net/crip/toplevel/boats.html)


[This message has been edited by Crip (edited 12-19-2001).]

[Hesp]

"There is at least one in the size range you are looking at, only she has a transom stern and not a counter. The last time I saw her, Breeze was laid up for restauration in Porlock Weir in Cornwall, UK. All information required for a duplication could propably be gotten from the original. Porlock Weir has a sailing club, very nice and helpfull people, they would know about the current status.".....Henning

I live a couple of miles from Porlock Wier. 'Breeze' is still out of the water. She looks in much the same condition as she did a couple of years ago.

John

[PeterSibley]

Hello All,
this discussion is of considerable interest to me.I've been designing my interpretation of Pilot Cutters for a while and I'm the first to admit that they are just that ,interpretations.I'm on the other side of the world and have never even seen a real pilot cutter ,however something of the rational that Pekka expresses applies to me also.I love the appearance of a shapely counter and plumb stem and bulwalks that are more than a plank on edge.The plank on end yacht do not appeal....I have seen them looking very wet and being a lot slower than should have been the case bearing in mind their angle of heel .The drawings I have based my efforts on were I think derived from an ancient modeling magazine ,they were of a large vessel,too large for anything that wasn't going to be earning serious money!

My "intrepretation" has come out at 36 'OA,10 ' 3 " beam,and 5'6" draft.The cabin will be nearly invisible behind the bulwalk.I drew this some years ago and was interested to see Luke Powell's "Eve" when her photos appeared in Classic Boat.I rang him and he very kindly sent me a brochure on his new boat "Lizzy May".It included the lines ( which he also posted on his website http://workingsail.tripod.com/page2.html)The drawings are lovely ,the website is a bit difficult but persevere.My boat is finer than "Eve" and smaller than "Lizzie May"but fairly similar to both.It seems that if you draw a profile you like and a midsection with a bit of stiffness , headroom and somewhere to fasten down securely some inside ballast and go for smooth fair buttocks sweeping up to the counter you end up with a boat that looks fine!So much for the enthusiastic amateur!

As for weather helm, can anyone give me advice on the degree of sweep,the variance from our traditional form (pilot cutter : Number 2 of Pekka's drawings)that would be required to ease the helm to yacht standards?
Its not something I've been able to glean from Mr Chapple's "Yacht Designing and Planning".

Thanks everyone,please keep up the discussion and HAPPY 2002.

[johnw]

Peter,

The traditional approach is to make a cardboard cutout of your proposed underbody, push a pin through it at various points until you find the balance point, and that is the center of area. Figure the center of area for your rig (I think Chapelle shows how) and figure you need about a 20 percent lead for the center of area of the rig over the center of area of the underbody. You can trim your underbody until the balance point of the cutout is where you want it, or move the mast or trim the boom to get the balance right Of course, I'm pretty sure that when it came to figuring the drag to the keel and the balance of the rig, the old timers just guessed, and did some cut and try after the boat was built. Of course, as soon as the boat heels, the shape of it starts affecting the balance. Wide boats develop weather helm when they heel, plank on edge cutters develop lee helm when they heel. I've only had one boat that didn't change balance when it heeled.

[Mirelle]

For helm bal;ance under sail, see Dr T Harrison Butler's "Cruising Yachts, Design and Performance", (first published 1946, but there is a new edition in print now) for the Metacentric Shelf Analysis of hull designs.

It may be scientifically wrong, but Mirelle, a pilot cutterish yacht but with less draft and a harder bilge (i.e. should be harder on the helm) was designed in accordance with the theory and she can be steered with one finger under most conditions.

[DesignByBird]

Dear Sir,

If you are still looking for a this type of boat plan, i suggest that you contact a regular contributor to the wooden boat forum ~ paladinsfo. He is soon to have one built..

Regards, Peter.

[Smacksman]

Weather helm is what you make it. My smack Alberta goes to windward with the helm lashed while I walk the decks playing with string.
I have yet to sail in a gaff cutter that doesn't have weather helm on a reach and the sails trimmed for speed. A ketch or yawl helps on this point of sailing.

If you can accept a drop in speed you can still balance a gaffer. I broad reached my Emma across the Thames Estuary with a broken rudder and did 12 miles in 3 hours. Not to be encouraged but possible.

Please don't put a 'greenhouse' on a smack type yacht to get accomadation - it looks awfull.

Once you have owned a workboat type you will be weaned off the 'tupperware' for life.

Fair winds