Hinkley or Grand Banks?

[cmtacking]

I‘ve been thinking and that’s dangerous territory for me, let me tell ya :D . I can’t remember how many times I got waylaid by some hair-brained idea that should have kept right on going through the space between my ears, but instead got stuck and grew like a weed. I never was good at weeding either, so here’s the idea and a plea for some advice. I must warn you though, there is the possibility of being scapegoat here. After all, with my experiences in the realm of hair-brained ideas, something always goes wrong and it is probably the most simple thing…you know, something the village idiot would be quick to point out. And if you offer any advice OF COURSE I’d be sure to consider the source when the thing falls all to pieces. You don’t expect ME to take the fall do ya? :cool:

I’ve been thinking of building another boat. A big one.

Oh..EARTHSHATTERING you think. :rolleyes:

Well let me tell you! It is to ME, but I think I can still do it. Maybe. Heck, I know I’m not as young and as fit as just several years ago. Yeah, I know I can’t use my arm none too good anymore. And there is always the money thing. And sure I don’t work like blazes any more. But still, I think it’s worth a shot, I think I’ve still got another boat in me. I’ve always wanted one and part of life is about dreams isn’t it?

:confused: ... NO, not PIPE DREAMS!!

You see, I have a good deal of the material that it would take. I acquired most of it through predatory business deals redface.gif or blind luck ( most folks say the latter). I can make MOST of the rest. SO WHAT if the keel is still waving in the air in the form of a TREE :eek: , that’s just part of the FUN of it! Money? Why, I’m SURE to hit the lottery any day now! And I’ve been saving lead fishing sinkers all my life for the keel! I probably have 50-60 pounds of ‘em by now! Besides, I want one and I imagine I can build one and that’s the hardest part, right?

But I’m torn. Yep, hard as it is to believe, this laser sharp intellect has froze …kinda like my stupid computer does. I can’t decide whether I want a nice trawler yacht or a beautiful sailboat, maybe something on the lines of a Grand Banks or a Hinkley. I’m leaning toward a sailboat ‘cause I’m none to handy with those infernal engines, and on a sailboat the ENGINE is the backup. Besides, there is just something about sailing that I like more than motoring. Shoot, you don’t even got to go anywhere to have fun sailing!! But alas, I can’t JUST think of me can I? There’s the wife to consider and natch she would prefer a MOTORBOAT as she calls it. I’ll admit, her side does have it’s good points. Still, I’m afraid gas prices might go up in the future.

SO…whaddya think? I know it’ll be hard to wrap that luan around those red oak frames and make all those chines look good, but I really WANT a sailboat.

I hope my attempt to get a grin in your day was sucessful!
Riley Smith

[A. Mason]

Hi Riley, decades past there was a third alternative that was popular - a motorsailer. In the 1950s and 1960s designs for motorsailers regularly appeared in the boating magazines.

They were usually shoal draft [sometimes with a centerboard], more or less had somewhat the look and spaciousness of a powerboat but with full sailing rigs.

My late father, Al Mason, was one of many designers who offered motorsailer designs. Most of Al's were in the 30-36 foot range. He designed a total of 10, with six for wood construction. Al's most famous was "The Rudder's" how-to-build MATILDA.

[FYI: Al also designed a trawler yacht with sails, and I'm sure that other designers also offered such arrangements.]

Hope this helps,
Anita

[cmtacking]

Thanks for the info Anita. You are right, that 3rd alternative( a motorsailer) rarely occurs to me, I guess because of unfamiliarity with it on the local level. It would make a good choice in this area, particularly with a centerboard in these shoal draft waters.

I have been considering a larger boat, although the perceeding post was just my lame attempt at humour. And yes, the keel is still up in the air :D You can be assured that Al Mason's designs will be thoroughly checked before the bark flies! Riley Smith

[Scott Rosen]

What is it about a motor boat that your wife likes?

If it's the comfort and room, then I agree with Anita; look into some motorsailer designs. There are plenty out there. Both of the following books have a number of excellent motorsailer designs and are available from our host. Go to http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/


http://www.woodenboat.com/325117.jpg

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/images/300420.JPG

If it's go fast that your wife wants, then I'm afraid a motorsailer probably won't be fast enough.

[cmtacking]

Go fast? Nay, we've reached the point where speed isn't as important as comfort and style (I DO love brightwork!). Having said that, sailing can be time consuming if there be a destination in mind and the wind is uncooperative. And I don't know anyone that wants a vessel with canine tendancys. Ahh..the pace of our lives sometime!

So far, so good on the advice!..I'm thinking of giving y'all a weasel clause in case the worst case scenario shoud happen as mentioned above! smile.gif Riley

[ken mcclure]

Take a look at William Garden's designs. He has some great stuff.

Also look at Paul Gartside's designs. www.gartsideboats.com (http://www.gartsideboats.com)

[mmd]

You may also want to check out some of the Eldridge-McInnis motor-sailers.

[Wild Dingo]

Of course... one could... one hessitates to mention the name... well they are wood... but then some folks do seem to have some problems with him... aaahhh buggar it!... George Beuhler there I said it!!... has some designs that could maybe possibly interest you??... egad watch the sparks fly now Shane... you cad!! :eek:

Beuhlers web page (http://www.georgebuehler.com)

Ducking for cover now... mmmmmmmmmm nah buggar it George does design woodenboats so to heck with the nay sayers! :mad: :cool:

Actually its a shame that Garden fella doesnt have a website isnt it?... been looking at some scans a fellow forumite sent me from the old Rudder magazine and he sure has some nice looking little schooners and ketchs hes created over the years... so okay how does a fella get ahold on the old fella?...

Take it easy
Shane

[ 09-30-2002, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[John Bell]

Shane,

I'm with you... I've had some recurring fantasies about knocking around some of the remoter places in the world on Buehler's Alci'i motorsailer that appeared in WB herewhile back.

The more I think about it, the more a motorsailer makes sense. Not many folks think like me these days, though.

JB

[Matt Middleton]

There are some extremely cool motorsailer designs out there, in all building methods.

Example:

Devlin's plywood & epoxy Oysta

http://www.devlinboat.com/oysta421.jpg

Or Gartside's stuff (POF or cold-molded)

http://www.gartsideboats.com/pgimages/37mtrsail.jpg

Too many choices, aren't there? (No, I'm not complaining ;) )

[Zumsel]

And I'm with you to John.
I'm one of these guys which is building George Buehlers wooden Alca I. I'm doing that in Nova Scotia. But I'm building a single chine version. Oh boy's don't kill me for that. Got most of the drawing's in April this year and George is sending me the rest of the drawings when I will need them. So he isn't not in a hurry and I have not pay him for the modifactions. It is absolutly fantastic to work with him.

Jochen


Originally posted by John Bell:
Shane,

I'm with you... I've had some recurring fantasies about knocking around some of the remoter places in the world on Buehler's Alci'i motorsailer that appeared in WB herewhile back.

The more I think about it, the more a motorsailer makes sense. Not many folks think like me these days, though.

JB

[TR]

A hundred years ago all powerboats were motorsailors. The engine was so untrustworthy you needed sails as backup, (probably had a pair of oars too).

Sailboats added tiny engines as auxiliaries, only enough to move the boat in a flat calm. Engines became more powerful and dependable, so we developed pure powerboats. Even ocean going powerboats. But something was missing.

So some bright guy put sails on his powerboat, "I'll call it a motorsailor". But what about stability? Just hang a lump of ballast down there, she'll be fine. What about windward ability? "Gentlemen don't sail to weather." Oh good, that makes it easy!

So the designer can create a crude hull, hang some rags on it, and call it a motorsailor. :rolleyes:

I would submit that virtually every modern auxiliary sailing yacht is a motorsailor. That is, that they have the power to achieve displacement hull speed (S/L of 1.34 times DWL). But something is missing; the wheelhouse. So a powerboat with a short rig and a wheelhouse is a motorsailor? Don't forget the poorly shaped (for sailing) keel!

Powerboats with short rigs will be disappointing as pure sailboats. Only occasionally will the wind be blowing in a direction and strength that will be helpful to the powerboat. But that's the powerboater talking. ;)

All the best.

Tad

[rbgarr]

Hmmmm... Shallow draft, sailing when it's nice or convenient, motoring capabilities, brightwork, pretty, relatively simple to build:

See L. F. Herreshoff's GOLDEN BALL (with or without leeboards or bilgekeels) in his 'Sensible Cruising Designs'. That would be my vote.

[rodcross]

Riley,

You have to get over the phobia with motors. When you do, then you get into making a pure choice. TR is right. Nearly every sailboat has an auxiliary that is strong enough to keep the boat at hull speed into a 15kt breeze. For me, its motor out of the harbor long enough to charge the batteries and make ice in the fridge; Sail all day and motor into an anchorage with juice enough to keep the lights on, all night, and ice that will last till morning, if need be.

Motors are not that scary. Feed them properly; Lubricate them on occasion and they will rarely fail you.

Keel/Centerboarders are hard for an amateur to build as there is some engineering required to keep the hull rigid.

K C/B is my choice, hands down! During the day, you draw 8'; In the evening, you can anchor in 4'.

[rbgarr]

Here's a nice Ralph Wiley design, too: http://yachtworld.com/boats/view_more_boat.cgi.en?url=&boat_id=912034&units=Feet€cy=USD&access=Public&listing_id=1603

[bill hersey]

The term "motorsailer" immediately conjurs up a vision of a vessel that does neither very well -- sails slowly and powers about the same. That is far from the truth.

First hand experience.

My "AMANTE" is a 50 ft. motorsailer, designed by Wendell Calkins in San Diego, built in 1962. She is a canoe stern, flush deck, large cockpit vessel, with a gracious salon that accomodates 8 at the dining table, has deck-level 360 degree windows, and sails easily at 10 to 13 knots to weather in any breeze over 18 knots. She is low, beautiful and very strong.

The story? The original design was LEGEND, a strong, strip planked (1 1/2" mahogany) fin-keeld speedster that was born in 1959 and took Trans Pac Firsts among many others in a long career. Calkins was regarded as a master, an engineer as well as a respected NA. He was approached about taking the design and making a motorsailer of the same weight distribution, sail area, etc. as Legend, only with powerboat accomodations and speed -- finally a boat that would sail like a Ferrari and motor comfortably, sails down, at 9 knots with a 60 horse diesel. He did it, and five of them were built in the U.S., most at Driscoll on San Diego. AMANTE is #3.

This sounds like spouting off, and it's not meant to be. If the definition of a motorsailer is: a yacht that has the accomodations, long range and comfort of a trawler, with galley and salon almost at deck level, few companionway steps, lots of storage, etc. and the definiton of a sailboat is...you get the idea. Well, I own one. And there are lots of good designs that can take you anywhere in the world under power or sail in comfort, safety and with plenty of both sailing fun and speed.

It's purely a matter of design, and good construction that carefully follows the plans. I wish I knew how to post pics...

If you want any info, shoot me an e-mail. I could kep going on this topic for way too long.

[ 12-16-2002, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: bill hersey ]

[mmd]

Mr. Hersey, sir, could you please consult wih the "search" thingy and learn how to post pictures, please, sir? Us kids wanna see your boat. :D

[bill hersey]

uhboy...I just looked at that thread. I've been wanting to try this, so might as well get to it.

[Alan D. Hyde]

bill, here are the short instructions:

Type followed by the web address of the photo, followed by .

There, you've done it!

And I too very much look forward to seeing the lovely Amante.

Thanks, bill.

Alan

[ 12-17-2002, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[rbgarr]

Bill-

Is this the design you're talking about?

http://yachtworld.com/listing/yw_listing_full_detail.jsp?url=&boat_id=914371&units=Feet¤cy=USD&access=Public&listing_id=977

[bill hersey]

That's DULCINEA, a sistership built in Japan under Calkins supervision. I understand she just sold. AMANTE is identical except for teak decks, a different master stateroom layout and a settee across from the folding table. Calkins was a detailist, especially when it came to weight distribution. As far as I know he was one of the first to have a pump system to transfer the fresh water from one tank to another automatically for ballast purposes (she carries 300 gallons in two 150 gallon tanks). Her plans are 29 full pages. Bet he was a fun guy for the construction supervisor!

What I want to post -- and am making progress for an amateur at this stuff -- are shots in drydock and under sail. She carries a swept fin keel, folding prop and skeg mounted rudder -- all the racing type muckamuck. I was first aboard a Calkins 50 as a kid (JOSEPHINE), and fell in love then. I want to share AMANTE with you guys, and will shortly (I hope) but the point of my jumping on is that a motorsailer can be a great sailing boat and still have comfort, range and reasonable speed under power alone. I would be very interested in seeing other designs which incorporate this approach.

I'm on imagstation now, and setting it up. Back to the URLs and the //s and the[[s.

[Wild Dingo]

Hows it goin Bill??... Im lookin forward to this! :cool: ... If your hanging out to poste them attach em to a email and float em over and they will appear quick as a flash!! :D

Take it easy
Shane