Trailerable Cruiser - Surf Scoter

[Big Red]

I was reading a thread yesterday from a guy asking the forum about a cruiser for himself and his wife. Somebody mentioned the Surf Scoter, by Sam Devlin. I was struck :eek: at how good looking this boat was. I had to see more...

All I could find on the net with google was the Devlin site. Which was pretty good. It has a few construction photos as well as some finished boats to gawk at.

I really dig the sheer line on that boat. Check these out:

http://www.devlinboat.com/surfscoter2501.jpg

http://www.devlinboat.com/ss25profile.gif

Hey Dingo, if'n you read this, you'll notice the photos came up this time ;) Isn't she a beaut though!

Those pictures/lines are for the 25 footer, Devlin also has a 22 footer. So what did I do today? Well I was in the backyard, with the tape, and lets just see how long 25 foot really looks. Well it didn't look too big. A beam of 8 foot doesn't seem too wide either.

I would like some opinions on this stitch and glue method. Devlin's boats all seem to be stich'n glue construction. Now I have a canoe, a kayak, and a boogie board, all stitch and glue, under my belt. I think the technique has its place. But surely this method isn't suitable for a sea going boat? I am not sure I would feel comfortable in her knowing the hull wasn't actually fastened.

Now obviously lots of boats have been built with this technique, probably hundreds, if not thousands. Am I just being a nervous Nellie? Surely plywood over sawn frames, all screwed and glued, with a sheathing of glass, would be better?

Hypothetically, if I was to build a boat designed for stich and glue fashion, but build it over frames with chines, etc, what kind of weight increase would I be looking at?

I think the design stated 3300lbs displacement for the Surf Scoter. Which is 1500kg or so. This is right on the limit for towing behind a regular car in Australia. Unfortunately I don't live by the sea/marina. So I would have to tow it.

Which brings me back to the idea that frames would be better, on a trailer...

Another thing I was thinking is that a big boat like that (realistically, I would probably go for the 22" version, but let me live the fantasy for now), is not something that I would be out in every weekend, mores the pity. It would be more likely that I would go out on long weekends, etc.

So sleeping aboard for one, maybe two nights. Am I being a bit adventurous wanting a boat of that size? I am not saying that I would be on the water more often in a smaller boat, but a smaller boat would be easier to get to the water. Not to mention build (read: afford).

Another question, is an outboard lighter than an inboard? I am not looking to break any speed records here, and I would like the motor to be pretty quiet. I am leaning towards petrol, but I can see the advantages of deisel.

I have had some experience with outboards, both 2 and 4 strokes. Do inboards vibrate the boat more? And what are the prices like? Which is the cheaper version, in or out? That would be inboard with a leg, not a shaft and prop, btw.

Whew, thats enough for one post I reckon. Thanks in advance for the replies. Oh, btw, anyone know of any other Scoter sites, or have pictures of their own they would like to post? That'd be great.

Cheers, Red.

[garland reese]

Mr. Devlin does a fine job of his designs with the S&G techniques. They seem to be used in some pretty challenging waters. He has a lot of serious boats under his belt. If built per plan, and with care, I don't think I'd worry about the seaworthiness of the technique. You might inquire of Sam to get you in touch with some builders/users of the Surf Scoter design.
Good luck. I like the Surf Scoter too. I also like that new 22 foot harbor tug.

[CapnRog]

Hey, Red!

If you really don't want to go S&G, you might check out Arch Davis's Jack Tar (http://www.by-the-sea.com/archdavisdesign/davis_jacktar.html) or Paul Gartside's Jennifer (http://www.gartsideboats.com/jennifer.php).
The Jack Tar is based on the Lobster Boat, and is about the same size as the Surf Scoter 25. The Jennifer is a really sweet 22' pilothouse cruiser. Both are plywood on frames and stringers. Good luck whichever way you go.

Cherrs,
Roger

[Bob Smalser]

Whatever you decide on, remember you have to get the thing on and off the trailer as a matter of routine, and the bigger the boat and the rougher the conditions, the more difficult that is.

[Big Red]

Bob, your right! I've spent enough time on a boat ramp, I should have realized that. I wish I could get a mooring somewhere. Marina berths are just so dang expensive. Not to mention miles and miles from where I live.

The only way I could justify that is if I was living aboard... oops! Better nip that thought right in the bud!

Perhaps I'm just dreaming... love at first sight or something :rolleyes:

I had a quick squiz at Arch Davis's site, thanks for the link. Both the Jack Tar and his Jiffy 22 looked pretty good. The plans seem relatively inexpensive too, compared to some others I've seen. Hmmm, this is not making it any easier ;)

Arch mentions a different method of construction. Starting with the deck, adding a transom and stem/keel and then planking (ply-ing?). Nifty idea, wonder if I can find some construction pics.

[Stiletto]

Hey Red, there is a link on the jack tar site that takes you to some construction pics of 'Miss Jennifer'

[Bob Perkins]

Hi,

I took a class at WoodenBoat School this past summer. While I was there, Sam Devlin was there teaching Stitch & Glue and Marine Painting.

For the Maring Painting class - one of the guys had recently purchased a Surf Scooter and he had it there to be repainted. It went from being a white hull to a nice dark green.

I got to go in the boat, etc.. It was very nice. A common quote was "This is made out of plywood?" There are enough curves that it doesn't look like and old Volvo. It looked like a fun boat to own.

Sam's boat company builds them when ordered, so the plans, etc. Have had plenty of opportunity for refinement.

Good luck,
Bob

[Bob Smalser]

Years ago we formed a unit in the Sultanate of Oman on the Indian Ocean, and we all wanted a boat.

Knowing we had no breakwaters available or mooring where we were, just one concrete boat ramp, I proposed the local fisherman's "canoe" - formerly a dugout Mango log with a couple Teak side planks but then newly done in heavy glass. 20-24' heavy but beachable with two people and a 40hp outboard.

Got voted down and we wound up with a fancy, heavy 23' center-console, reverse-sheer, V-bottom with 250hp outboard, head, internal tankage - over a ton of boat with broad, flat transom to handle all that motor...

1) Had to build up the trailer with padded side poles and big v-brace at the bow to take the pounding of recovery in the surf.

2) Took 3 to recover that beast - one on the tractor, one piloting the boat and one to handle the winch hook...and exceptionally dangerous job.

Tractor operator facing the ramp would time the waves and run the front-mounted hitch and trailer in the water as a signal for the pilot to gun the boat with firmness onto the bunks. Hook handler had a millisecond or so to get the hook in that moving eye, get the bow tight to thwe brace and signal the tractor man to get the boat out of the water before the next wave broke....

...miscues were spectacular.

3) Never specially enjoyed either repairing fiberglass or welding, but did a lot of it that tour.

4) BTW - conditions were almost always too rough to plane with that boat - all that boat and motor and we spent most of our time riding the swells at displacement speeds....

...no over-engined, fuel-guzzling planing craft any more for me in big water, thanks.

[ 08-31-2003, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Big Red]

I know where your coming from Bob. I grew up around boats. My Dad had a 14 foot glass Savage. I could not even contemplate the number of times I have been out in that boat. Then later on, he bought the kids, my brother and I, a 12 foot tinnie.

We lived near a natural deep water port and I can always remember driving down ealry on a saturday to have a look at the water. I can still hear my Dad say "its like a sheet of glass".

What I noticed was that any kind of boat performs well on smooth water. Fact is, the water only stays smooth while there is no wind. About a couple of hours after sunrise. I know from many a thumping ride that the lighter a boat, the less sea worthy it is. I will never, so long as I live, own another tinnie!

That is why I have been looking for the semi-disp kind of hull. I don't know if it would nessecarily ride better (opinions anyone?) but since your only going to be putting along anyway...

I would be ramping it in pretty much protected waters. Nevertheless, the bigger the boat, the more difficult it would be.

It seems there are a lot more factors to consider than first meets the eye. If my eye was the judge, I would build the Scoter just to be able to sit on my back stairs and look at it.

And I think that is half my concern with the stitch and glue method. I'm wanting to build something with frames and stringers and stuff. I'd have as least as much fun building it as using it. More probably. Cause when I was out in the boat, I'd be thinking about building one, but when I was building one, I wouldn't be thinking of being at sea ;)

I can't imagine trying to trailer a boat in the surf. Madness :eek: I can remember as a kid jumping out the front of an inflatable boat in the surf. And the wave pushing it over me. I couldn't get out from under because I was stuck on the bottom, and I couldn't lift the boat cause of the suction.

Dang boats, why are they so attractive?

[Big Red]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Big Red:
[QB]I know where your coming from Bob. I grew up around boats. My Dad had a 14 foot glass Savage. I could not even contemplate the number of times I have been out in that boat. Then later on, he bought the kids, my brother and I, a 12 foot tinnie.

We lived near a natural deep water port and I can always remember driving down ealry on a saturday to have a look at the water. I can still hear my Dad say "its like a sheet of glass".

What I noticed was that any kind of boat performs well on smooth water. Fact is, the water only stays smooth while there is no wind. About a couple of hours after sunrise. I know from many a thumping ride that the lighter a boat, the less sea worthy it is. I will never, so long as I live, own another tinnie!

That is why I have been looking for the semi-disp kind of hull. I don't know if it would nessecarily ride better (opinions anyone?) but since your only going to be putting along anyway...

I would be ramping it in pretty much protected waters. Nevertheless, the bigger the boat, the more difficult it would be.

It seems there are a lot more factors to consider than first meets the eye. If my eye was the judge, I would build the Scoter just to be able to sit on my back stairs and look at it.

And I think that is half my concern with the stitch and glue method. I'm wanting to build something with frames and stringers and stuff. I'd have as least as much fun building it as using it. More probably. Cause when I was out in the boat, I'd be thinking about building one, but when I was building one, I wouldn't be thinking of being at sea ;)

I can't imagine trying to trailer a boat in the surf. Madness :eek: I can remember as a kid jumping out the front of an inflatable boat in the surf. And the wave pushing it over me. I couldn't get out from under because I was stuck on the bottom, and I couldn't lift the boat cause of the suction.

Dang boats, why are they so attractive?

Oh, whats reverse sheer? Is that when your boats upside down, cause you mistimed the waves? :D

[Bob Smalser]

Maybe it's just me, but I call it "reverse sheer" on boats where the gunwales and foredeck slope downward from midships to the bow. Like a spear point with all the buoyancy of a spear point.

Makes it much more likely to bury the bow in the next swell surfing down a big wave at too sharp an angle.

Those aren't rough-sea boats for rookies, especially in the IO wilderness where there's no marine radio net, let alone a Coast Guard...

...it was a great tour, tho...unbelievable diving and fishing.

PS...I can't count the number of native fishermen in distress we located for CG rescue with the local P3 squadron there....no radio to speak of, the CG couldn't afford enuf towers, but the locals had cell phones that worked pretty well over the water.

[ 09-01-2003, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: Bob Smalser ]

[Big Red]

So getting back to the point here ;) How were these boats constructed. As you said they were heavily built and overkill. I assume not stitch-n-glue? I think I have seen this reverse sheer on some wooden runabouts. It looks kinda like the nose drops away like a sports car, right?

Sounds kinda opposite to what you'd think would be right. Most rough weather boats have big bows to ride the waves.

What kind of tour was this, military?

[Bob Smalser]

These are modern designs - glass boats. But in low-tech areas, the construction tends to be extra heavy.

And yes, we were military.

[Tom Lathrop]

The reverse sheer, or droop snoot, is often used on very fast runabouts and almost always on non-offshore racboats. Look at most of the classic "gentleman's racers" from last century. Might be mostly for aesthetics but also for less windage and weight forward. On some boats, I like the look while, on some others, it looks silly. On "modern" cruisers, it's done to get standing headroom in the forecabin. Makes foredeck work in bad weather an adventure though.

[Fishboat]

I think the more functional reason for dropping the sheerline going forward(beyond the aesthetics) was to allow better visability over the bow when coming up on plane or steaming just off plane.

[warthog5]

I belive this is what your talking about? I was told yes it so it doesn't block your view. I hate the way they look!

http://www.fountainpowerboats.com/Products/images/pr_fishboat.jpg

[Big Red]

Gee Tom, "last century". You make it sound so long ago :D

Now that I can see it, I recognise it on a lot of boats. I bought one of those Boat Trader magazines the other day, and at least half of those plastic buckets have that feature.

Does look kinda sleek though...

[imported_Peter K]

G'day Red...
Nice boat Devlins Surf Scoter...I've been drifting that way in my thoughts too.
Check out the latest issue of Trade-A-Boat or Boatpoint.com.au and you will find one for sale right here in OZ.
I like the idea of a semi displacement boat cruising at 15knots even when it gets a bit rough - is that feasible?
My 4.8m planing hull wont - just digs a hole and wastes fuel. At displacement speeds it handles like a log but gets there.
Good luck
Peter

[capt jake]

As long as you have Tom on this thread, how about the Blue Jacket 24?? It is lighter than the Scoter, but very similar lines.

I have had the same debate with myself a while back and decided on the Blue Jacket for my needs here. I also have seen several of Devlin's boats and 22' looks very large while on a trailer, though in the water it is just right. smile.gif

The same can be said for the Blue Jacket, though I liked the lay out and configuration of the Blue Jacket better.

[Old Salt]

The Bluejacket is aesthetically very simular to the Surf Scoter. But the Bluejacket is a flat bottom, light planing boat. The Surf Scoter is vee bottom and heavy. For offshore Pacific Northwest conditions the Surf Scoter is much better suited. Unless the Bluejacket possesses qualities unique to the flat bottom boats, you would pound excessively in sloppy seas. Not sure about the bluejackets stability in rolling seas either? I would love to hear contrary to my comments, as the Bluejacket will cost much less to build and operate.

[On Vacation]

The Bluejacket was never designed for a heavy offshore boat. On the east coast, many tributaries of open bodies of water, are for your cruising delight. Many older couples, are tired of pulling rags , and walking bent over, as required in many sailboats. Many production boats require a big motor, and anything in the mid 20's are heavy in regular glass hulls. We also have the large ICW, which runs for over a thousand miles, just on the Atlantic side, with varying depths of water, from Norfolk Va, to Key West, Fla. It can be towed and launched by a normal vehicle, on a normal boat ramp, and the material is readily avaliable for the building schedule, without breaking the bank. Not all boats will do the same job. The concept of the orignal Bluejacket was never intended to do ocean journeys. The need for the Devlin bottom, which you comment on and weight is just not needed, to do the job of the concept for Bluejacket.

[ 09-06-2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[capt jake]

OK then, how would the Blue Jacket do in the Puget Sound waters?? Here I had my mind made up smile.gif ....... smile.gif

[G. Schollmeier]

Just to muddy the water a little.

http://www.tedbrewer.com/power/deerisle24.htm

Gary :D

[On Vacation]

I think the comment of the bottom being flat, is stretching it a bit. Yes it may not be as much vee in it, but this make it less rolly at slow speeds. Not every boat will fit everyoes needs. Every boat is a compromise, one way or the other.

I will find my pictures and load them of the boat upside down. Several things I failed to mention in the above post, was that most folks cruising this type of a boat, will plan ahead with the weather in mind. This is not to say that people get caught in heavy weather. But one thing for sure, if you boat with your wife in a 24 foot outboard cruiser type boat of anything , you are not going transatlantic. Weather plays a big role in whether you will get to boat another day, if you beat her up on her day off in the sunshine.

[On Vacation]

One more issue, to clarify it a little, the boat was to accomadate a couple in comfort, in lieu of a sailboat, and to be able to store on a trailer and to be able to load with ease, because of the size and weight of the complete boat. Here in our region, the access to the water is limited, at best. Maybe it did sound like it it would not take open water. But that is not the case. But ocean going was not an issue, as any other boat of that size. A person must pick their days, for comfort at least in either one of the boats. We surely have enough of the nasty chop, that will try your patience, sometimes.

I am not going to comment of the weight of the Devlin, but you can open up his website and check it out. But I think there is more than a thousand or more lbs different in the two boats, even agianst his 22 footer.

Weight plays a factor in horsepower,speed, and fuel.

If you are doing most of your boating in semi protected or coastal waters, why shove around a lot of useless weight? HUH???

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/p7a5d846db46ef29eda627d0213b07ed7/fb2a4f84.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/p47e8adead7a0e862e189b508cfb609f2/fb2a4f13.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pe97aff15fb5e33eb912a5b2b290170a8/fb2a4f3d.jpg

[ 09-06-2003, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

[capt jake]

OK, the pictures make me feel better again. smile.gif I like it!!!!

As For the Ted Brewer, what is the deadrise?? I don't see that in his site. Seems that this is where the major differences are.?..? smile.gif

and uh, yes the Devlin design is far heavier than previousely mentioned. Nothing against the design, as I absolutely love it. I have conversed with many people who have built and or owned them and they love them also.

Tom's boat seems to suit me better and is less on the time table of building. smile.gif Unless I am persuaded again (I would begin to feel like a Wild Dingo if that happened!!! :D :D : D )!!!

[ 09-06-2003, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: capt jake ]

[On Vacation]

Capt. Jake, the draft on the Teb Brewer shows 2'2". It shows an inboard gas or diesel. So I would think or hope it would have a stern bearing mounted to a fixed keel. If not, the running gear would be exposed. So lets say 12 inches will be the gear. That would leave you with a 14 inch draft on the bottom.

[CapnRog]

I just checked the MessingAbout.com site, and the plans review page for the Blue Jacket is no longer available. Does anyone have info on how the obtain study materials, etc., for this design?

Thanks,
Roger

[Tom Lathrop]

I have been away for a few days and missed all this discussion of the Bluejacket.

First, the Bluejacket is definitely, ablolutely, positively NOT a flat bottom boat. As can be seen from the photos Oyster posted, the forefoot is pretty fine (Finer than the Scoter) and turns to a final monohedron deadrise of 10 degrees from about station 6 to the transom. I chose this bottom as my estimate of the most reasonable compromise between all the factors affecting the overall performance, including low trailering weight as a primary consideration. The deadrise at midships and aft is certainly less than that of the Scoter. There is no doubt, that at speeds in the upper teens, that, having much greater weight and more midships deadrise, the Scoter will have less tendency to pound at the same speed. The Scoter will tend to shoulder its way through the waves while Bluejacket will tend to part the waves with the sharper bow and then ride more on top. Other comments about the Scoter should come from Sam. Individuals will need to study the list of their requirements and the specifications of these boats, which are quite different, to make their own determination. I like them both for different reasons.

As to suitability for various "rough" water, I find that almost everyone thinks that their local water is rougher than that found elsewhere. Our normal local cruising takes place in water just inside the Outer Banks inshore of Cape Hatteras and Cape Lookout, North Carolina. These are not known as the most benign water conditions around.

In a recent cruise in Ontario, we were warned about possible rough conditions crossing Lake Simcoe because of long fetches and the shallow bottom. On the day we crossed, the wind was 20km on the starboard bow. We made the crossing at 16mph and found the conditions less demanding than similar weather on our Pamlico Sound. What does that mean? It's just one anecdotal piece of information.

Later on, we cruised on the North Channel of Georgian Bay in company with friends in a Rosborough 246. According to the owner, the Rosborough weighs over 6000 lbs. In our cruising trim, Bluejacket was about half that. We both agreed that both boats seemed to handle the conditions about the same although I thought that we bounced around a bit more. When conditions got rougher, they slowed down first and I admit I was also ready to do the same.

I'm sorry that this has been so long but I lack the time to make it shorter.

[On Vacation]

Originally posted by CapnRog:
I just checked the MessingAbout.com site, and the plans review page for the Blue Jacket is no longer available. Does anyone have info on how the obtain study materials, etc., for this design?

Thanks,
Rogerhttp://www.messing-about.com/smallboats/bluejacket.htm

[capt jake]

Thanks Tom, for the information; it has put my mind at ease. If and when my remodeling project ends; I can then remodel the shop, then I can start building. smile.gif smile.gif

[CapnRog]

Nope, still doesn't work. Any ideas?

[capt jake]

Nope, still doesn't work. Any ideas? Huh?? What does this short stated comment mean???? Doesn't work for what?? What doesn't work?

[Tom Lathrop]

I think that what Rog (is it Roger?) is referring to is the review of the plans. That is because Frank may not have actually done or posted the review yet. There is a fair amount of information on the boat but not specifically of the plans on his website.

[capt jake]

OK, now that makes sense. the link works for me; remember that Frnak's site has a hiccup now and then.. smile.gif

[CapnRog]

Thanks, Tom. I can get to all of the information except the Plans Review. I've actually had the site bookmarked for some time, so I thought something had happened to the link. I guess I just missed the part about ordering plans, I'll go back and re-read.

Thanks again,
Roger

[On Vacation]

I can attest that for your dollar, you get five times the information on this boat with a full detailed set of step by step notes. I have purchased around thirty sets of different plans. I have never had such information provided to me for a dollar. I know this sounds as a promo, but its nice to see someone that shares more than line drawings and scantlings. Nuff said.

[capt jake]

I also have a set of these plans and I agree; there is a lot of information and photos to assist you. Tom put a LOT of effort into these plans and they are very thorough!! smile.gif smile.gif

[Ged]

Big Red, Antonio Dias' Tautog (http://www.diasdesign.com/tautog.html) might interest you.

(edit) Whoops, I just went back and noticed this boat suggested in the thread that this discussion spun off of.

[ 09-12-2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Ged ]

[Big Red]

Hey guys, thanks for your help on this matter. I have done a pretty thorough search of the net (ta Google!) before asking you guys. The only boat I didn't find was Toms Blue Jacket. Which looks pretty cool Tom, nice work.

The Scoter, Toms Blue Jacket and one called Jennifer (can't recall the designer offhand- Gartside??) all look "right" to me. Thats just a personal thing, I just think the sheer line looks a bit more powerful, more seaworthy.

Other than freeboard and windage, is there anything wrong with modifying a sheer line?

I'd be interested Tom, seeing as your boat is similar in dimensions to the Socter, and did you say it was a thousand pounds lighter, where is the weight saving? 1000lbs less sounds good to me, since I could probably pull it behind my normal car (I doubt I could pull the Scoter). Same car means more money for boat! :D

I looked at the Tautog, and its nice, but the Scoter is screaming "build me". Anyone else experience that with a design? ;) How do you silence the demons?

Red

[Tom Lathrop]

No secret on where the extra weight is Red. Scoter's scantling are much heavier than Bluejacket. 3/4" interior bulkheads and panels instead of 3/8", 3/4" bottom instead of 1/2" and so on. Scoter's floor timbers are huge chunks of lumber. Bluejacket uses 1/4" longitudinal bulkheads on 7 1/2" centers between sole and bottom.

Sam wants a "solid and quiet" feel to his boats and his customers acccept the price for that. The construction of Bluejacket is more "engineered" than Scoter to reduce weight. It is plenty strong and stiff enough but is noisier due to transmission of vibrations from the engine and water. The cabin tops are ply/foam/ply sandwiches while Scoters are multiple layers of ply with external beams. Sam also places his water tank under the forward berth to hold the bow down and ease the motion entering waves. It's something like the difference between a light car and a heavy Cadillac.

Two different concepts.

[CapnRog]

Tom,

Thanks for all the info on the Bluejacket, it's a great looking boat. Are there study plans available for it? I looked at the web site and saw the address for the plans, but there was no info on what was available, and I couldn't find a web site for them.

Thanks again,
Roger

[Tom Lathrop]

Yes, study plans are available. I don't know where the cut-off for commercial promotion is, so I'll answer you off-line.

[Big Red]

C'mon Tom, don't be bashfull. I couldn't find them either. Its not self promotion if we're asking :D I wish all the designers posted so we could bug them ;)

[Tom Lathrop]

Study plans are $15 with $10 counting toward price of $150 for the full package. Study plans consist of plan & profile, a magazine article on the design and a CD with photos & videos. Contact me by e-mail.