View Full Version : Just saw a sailboat:
Actually...3 0r 4 of these, Seaford Skiffs, as executed by Paul Ketcham. There's one in the fleet at Mystic.
I'm taking my camera back to get a better picture of the one he just finished restoring...his own.
A really neat little boat, apparently designed for sailing in the very shallow waters of the Great South Bay.
I could only find one pic on the web, but you get the idea.
My question is, could a fellow with very little sailing experience handle a boat like this?
Seaford Skiff
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid28/pf85c88cbba3a9f76f07f3aaa09322337/fd6e0a83.jpg
John of Phoenix
08-08-2002, 11:41 AM
You mean about the same amount of experience YOU have donn?? WOW!! First Cold Spring Joe, now donnwest goes bi on us. :D :D
Sure, you could sail that little jewel. Nothing to it.
Ian McColgin
08-08-2002, 11:52 AM
Do it. Just stay away from the 'Tuck fleet when they are racing. Tough guys.
I had the only Naraskatuck on the North Shore in the early-mid sixties. So one day my pal and I decided to exercise our new drivers lisences and trailer her over to the bay for a race.
I think at the time the fleet was still being raced by original owners - the boat having been designed and built in the '30's or so.
So there we were, a couple of 16 yr olds mixing it up with geezers (or young fellows from my current mid-50's perspective).
You know the 'Tuck but for those who couldn't see this detail from that pic you posted somewhere - it's like a really big sailfish with a pretty long overhang under the stem.
We were starboard and rail down when a port tack boat just rode up over our leeward rail jamming his head stay in our boom. I was fairly shocked, but responding to the emergency to push 'em off when the crew waded over his bow - whitehaired crew cut (back then I had a crew cut myself) and arms like a pair of boas, snarling obscenities as he decked me with one blow and shoved off.
Protest settled on the spot by force majeur. Since neither my pal nor I fancied fighting our elders, and I think we knew that age and treachery trump youth and niavite, we never went back.
Perhaps that crowd has died off - they'd be in their '90's now anyway so perhaps they have aged out of violence - but I believe the fleet still enjoys a kind of 'elbows up' reputation.
Enjoy.
Paul Jeffrey
08-08-2002, 12:08 PM
Not a problem, just remember to duck. :D
Paul J
Ian...here's a better picture of the Tuck:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid28/p9c2a48d0534bd59fd51a1da9fdf706f5/fd6e0106.jpg
"Largest active one design fleet on the Great South Bay
Racing as an active fleet since 1935
Built in cedar plank, plywood and fiberglass
Hull #3, Vixen, is still raced competitively
Used wood and fiberglass hulls are available
The Narrasketuck is a 20 ft. 4 in. planing centerboard dinghy. Originally built from cedar plank over oak or mahogany frames, boats have been built from marine plywood and laid up fiberglass since the mid 70's. The boats are indigenous to the Great South Bay of Long Island, NY. Designed and built by Wilbur Ketcham for the Narrasketuck Yacht Club of Amityville in the Winter of 1935, a large racing fleet competes today. "
Interesting that they spell it differently than the creek, which is Narraskatuck.
They are certainly vigourous competitors, and they seem to be the biggest sailboats that can work the flats in this end of the bay. Greatly entertaining to watch when they race...and they do it right outside my canal.
There are a few used ones for sale:
http://members.tripod.com/tuck1design/wantad.html
and a company making new ones:
http://members.tripod.com/tuck1design/sands.html
John of Phoenix
08-08-2002, 12:14 PM
Died off? I don't know Ian. Could be the fella there at the tiller is the one who decked ya. He's got a look about him, beady eyes behind those glasses and a crew cut under the hat. I think Donn could take him though.
holzbt
08-08-2002, 12:15 PM
Great sailing boats, most of the kids on that end of the bay learned to sail and race in them. There is one for sale at Southard's boatyard in Babylon.
Which one, Roger...the Seaford or the Tuck?
John of Phoenix
08-08-2002, 12:33 PM
Donn, the jib on the Tuck is going to make things more complicated for a single handed sail. Not a big deal and actually it'll add interest once you get the hang of sailing again. Notice the Tuck pictures show a crew of two. Helm and mainsheet for one, jibsheet and balance for the other.
How do you intend to use her? Racing, daysails, tender?
Ian McColgin
08-08-2002, 12:50 PM
Either boat is easy to learn in but the Seaford has the advantage of being smaller and cheaper and less complex.
The 'Tuck has running backstays so, even though she'll sail well with the jib down, you still have a couple of things to do tacking and you have to do them much better gybing.
So get the skiff and have fun.
Maybe also find someone to crew for in the 'Tuck fleet. Nothing like it.
John...use would simply be pottering around the bay...no racing, no tender. I actually liked the looks of the seaford, because it has a "work" look to it, with ample below deck space for a tackle box and a rod or 2.
holzbt
08-08-2002, 01:30 PM
The seaford skiff is what you want. It started out as a hunting/fishing boat in the mid 1800's. The tuck is a little too hot for putting about, and definitely not a one person boat. Usually you start out in something smaller before moving up to a tuck. If you were serious about a tuck you should talk to Glen Schmidt of Babylon.
Ok...more questions.
What is the sail/rig on the Seaford called...so I can study?
How do I get it out of my canal, with a prevailing SW wind in my face? The only sailing I've done before, is in open water, from the beach.
ishmael
08-08-2002, 01:38 PM
It's a sprit rig, with boom.
Donn,
Reading, sailing, sailing with someone more experienced(a big one for some fast track learning, but be careful who you choose), not going out in dicey weather till you start to know your reef points from your halyard. All of the above.
Welcome to the club!
Jack
John of Phoenix
08-08-2002, 01:46 PM
Of course, fishin'. Yep, keep things simple with the Seaford. Drop the main and drop your line.
That jib really clutters things up with extra sheets and another halyard, and that's when you're underway. You stop to fish and you'll also have a bow overflowing with sail. Plus the backstays will be throwing off your cast.
Go for it.
Not in the club yet, Jack...just the cogitatin' stage. I'm going to be spending a while at this guy's yard, and I suspect that one or two of the Seafords are for sale. SWMBO will kill me if I bring home another boat.
John of Phoenix
08-08-2002, 01:58 PM
How do I get it out of my canal, with a prevailing SW wind in my face? The only sailing I've done before, is in open water, from the beach.
"Paddle" is the first word to come to mind, but I don't know if your canal is wide enough to tack back and forth. if it is, practice tacking quickly in open water, then do it in the canal.
ishmael
08-08-2002, 02:10 PM
Hi Donn,,
Go for a sail on a 'good' day, and you'll be hooked.
A few books:
"The Craft of Sail" Jan Adkins, Walker and Company, New York
Out of print, but a nicely illustrated primer for the neophyte
For any boatman, but especially for the advancing sailor:
"The Elements of Seamanship" and "Knowing the Ropes", both by Roger Taylor, publisher uncertain(International Marine?) but also, likely, out of print.
The former is distillations of a lifetime at sea. The first chapter is titled, Keeping the Water Out. The second book is also distillation, of how and why sailors use rope. Both excellent.
Best,
Jack
[ 08-08-2002, 02:12 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]
At the narrows (between two big clorox bottles) 21-22 feet. I can just make it through in the dory with 10' oars. Mebbe I could slap some horns on the Seaford, and row it out. It weighs 450# empty, so it'd be a tough paddle.
holzbt
08-08-2002, 02:14 PM
Seaford skiffs are pretty fair row boats so that is an option. You might be able to tack (zigzag) out but with such a short rig you will find it pretty frustrating as the houses and trees generally distort that nice SW breeze causing all sorts of wind shifts. The sprit rig is handy because you can roll up the sprit and sail around the mast. You can row out with the mast in and unroll the sail when you reach the bay. The whole operation shouldn't take much more than one minute.
John of Phoenix
08-08-2002, 03:18 PM
Tacking isn't always a precise maneuver (for me at least) and though 20 feet isn't exactly the eye of a needle, oars sound like a wise option. Always smart to have aux power available in a saliboat anyway.
A couple of links about (re)learning to sail:
The Elements of Seamanship, Chap 1 (http://www.boatingmag.com/features/features.html?FeatureID=75) as mentioned by Jack above.
Sailing Basics (http://catalog.com/bobpone/kidsa.htm)
That second one is REALLY basic, but it'll get on the water and back.
[ 08-08-2002, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: JohnT ]
John B
08-08-2002, 04:28 PM
Go for the seaford Donn.
I like the look of that for the job you describe.
Nice looking boat.Modest rig. Not too flicky looking.
Just found this description of the rigging at Crawford Boatbuilding's website. It's applied to their fiberglass Melonseed Skiff, but it seems to be a clear explanation:
"Rigging Information
The spritsail, spars and rigging that accompany Crawford Boatbuilding's MELONSEED SKIFF are an example of simplicity and efficiency. It is unlikely that any rig is the equal of the sprit rig in providing performance with a minimum of hardware and fuss.
The following is a description of the component parts, their assembly and function:
MAST... A 10' length of solid wood which sets into the boat and is held in place by the mast step at its bottom (heel), and the mast partner at deck level. It has four pieces of hardware fastened to it. Starting from bottom to top they are; 1. A small 3" cleat that the sail downhaul is tied to. On the opposite side of the mast are the other three pieces. 2. A second cleat to tie off the boom snotter. 3. An eye strap to turn this snotter. 4. Further up the mast, a cleat for the sprit snotter. Don't be confused by the unfamiliar nautical terminology at this point. Just notice the four pieces of hardware. The rigging will be described later.
SAIL...A quadrilateral (square) sail of dacron weighing approx. 4-5 oz. per yard. It has numerous holes called grommets set into it, to which line (rigging) is attached. The edge that is set against the mast is called the LUFF. Using the light 15" light lines provided, tie the luff to the mast so that sail stands evenly about "' away from the back edge of the mast. Tie each of these LACE LINES tight with a good firm square knot. Tie the top most grommet to the hole in the top of the mast using a longer (24") lace line, and go through the hole at least twice and tie off very well. At no point should the sail luff appear crimped!
The corner of the sail that is at the bottom of the luff is called the TACK. Hanging down from the tack is a line attached to the sail called the DOWNHAUL. Now refer back to the mast hardware descriptions and this will start to come together. Tie the downhaul line to lowest cleat on the mast, the one just above deck level, the downhaul cleat. Be sure to tension the luff fairly tight. Good luff tension is very important. The sail is on the mast now so let's continue to rig it up.
SPRIT... The item from which the rig gets it's name. This is a 10' stick with a spike in the upper end and a line (called a snotter) attached through a hole in its bottom end. Setting this into the rig is extremely simple, but adjusting the upward tension against the sail top (PEAK) is the single most important adjustment you will make. It goes like this: Grab the sail peak and insert the spike into the rope loop that is sewn into the sail. Push the sprit upward. Tie off the snotter to the cleat located on the mast nearby. Now this is where you can get the most out of the rig's performance potential. The more the wind, the stronger the sprit tension! If you ever see sag lines in the sail because the sprit is not tensioned enough, then you are not getting maximum performance. Remember, soft wind, soft sail .... stiff wind, stiff sail. There are some very technical reasons for this, but that's a two beer conversation. A simple rule of thumb is to always OVERTENSION the sprit a bit anyway because the snotter seems to slip a bit naturally. When sailing to windward, you should never see sag lines in the sail in any direction.
BOOM...technically a SPRIT BOOM ... This has a slot in the end that goes forward and a hole with a snap attached to it in the aft end. To get optimum performance on all points of sail the boom will be set on the opposite side of the sail from the sprit - (It doesn't matter which side you put either spar on.) This causes the least average overall interference to the shape of the sail. You may set both spars on one side of the sail if you wish although you will get a better shape sail on one tack than the other. (This can only be useful if you are going to be on mostly one tack over a sustained distance.) Attach the boom to the sail by clipping the snap on the end of the boom to the grommet on the CLEW of the sail. The clew is the corner of the sail that is on the bottom of the sail closest to the transom.
The forward end of the boom is attached to the mast with another small line called a Boom SNOTTER. This short line should be permanently on the mast for sake of convenience. It has either a knot or a loop in one end, and goes down through the eye strap to the jamb cleat. Put the knot or loop into the SLO= END of the boom, and tension the boom snotter according to the wind strength.
SHEET... A 25' length of dacron line with a snap on one end. Snap the sheet onto either the grommet in the clew (along with the boom end snap) or to the snap itself. Newer boats have a RING attached to the bottom of the boom. Snap the sheet to this ring. Run the other end of the sheet through the block on the rudder head and IMMEDTATELY tie a figure eight-knot in the end.
One of the wonderous features of the Melonseed Skiff is that with just a little practice, this rigging drill can be accomplished in
ONLY A MINUTE OR TWO!!!
Now that you have accomplished all this, take fifteen knots of wind and two hours of spare time. Mix well. Apply as often as necessary! Caution; continuous use of this rig and boat can lead to addictive sailing behavior."
Todd Bradshaw
08-08-2002, 06:50 PM
Just to be knitpicky (me??? knitpicky???) do yourself a favor and do not remember the part about soft wind-soft sail. Most small boats will sail better in both heavy and light air with the sail flattened (stiff - as he would say it). Reducing rig tension (sprit tension, outhaul tension, downhaul tension, etc. - what he calls "soft") gives the sail more draft (a deeper airfoil shape). Light air often won't follow this deeper shape as it runs past the sail and tends to detach, robbing you of lift. The same thing can happen in heavy air that's moving fast enough that it won't follow the deep curve either.
Flattening in heavy air also tends to depower the sail, giving you more control with less heeling and higher boatspeed. It's the medium sort of conditions where you want to ease the tensions a bit to get more draft. Every boat is different, but I have yet to see one that sails better in light air with deep draft in the sail.
Todd..if'n I buy one of these blow-boats, it'll probably be a while before I get that refined.
The good news, is that SWMBO thinks it's a "cute little boat."
That's progress. ;)
John B
08-08-2002, 09:18 PM
Todd, what's your view on the old question regarding down hill runs. bag it all off for more draft, or leave it " as it is " for greater exposed area.
( I dump it all off myself. outhaul , halyards backstay an all that)
This question is a bit like the " do you lock off a prop" one . Always seems to come up.
Todd Bradshaw
08-09-2002, 01:58 AM
Don,
Don't sweat the details. Rig it so that it looks like the picture and you'll do fine. Tweaking is for that day in the future when you ask yourself "What could I do to go a little bit faster?" A lot of small boat sailors do little or no on-the-water adjustment and seldom pre-adjust their rigs for the day's conditions. They have just as much fun as everybody else and unless they're racing against similar boats, never miss the small increase in boatspeed that might be available. It looks like a good little boat that can be sailed without having to do a bunch of gymnastics to keep it up.
John,
This sounds like a stupid answer, but it depends upon whether or not it actually makes the boat faster. It's possible to increase boatspeed a bit yet, in the process, add time to the downwind leg (and maybe the beginning of the next upwind leg as well) by disrupting the normal flow of activities onboard and possibly the concentration of the skipper and key crew members. At a certain point, the legs may get short enough that it's actually faster overall to leave most of the stuff "as-is", concentrate on sailing a good course and just get to the mark.
When I was sailing the Star, rounding the upwind mark meant easing about 45 feet of mainsheet, easing the jibsheet, easing both upper and lower running backstays, ramming the mast forward at the deck, easing the outhaul, trimming the vang, easing the cunningham, poling-out the jib, adjusting both the jib wire and jib cloth downhaul as needed, deciding whether to have the crewman hike to windward or to leeward and trying to keep the boat flat and headed in the right direction as you tried to get a feel for what the wind was really doing - let alone keeping an eye on other boats. The boatspeed difference was enough that it was almost always worth doing all that stuff but it's easy to see that keeping focused on steering while re-adjusting most of the systems on the boat can be pretty difficult. Either just before, during or just after rounding the leeward mark and heading back up, everything has to be put back where it was which can be equally distracting when the most important task is to make a good rounding and start planning your upwind strategy. On that type of boat, this stuff is made possible by both practice and by pre-marking the sheets and control lines to at least a reasonable starting place. Fine tuning to suit the conditions could be done as time permitted.
It's fairly easy to see why my next boat was a trimaran. You head it off a bit more, trim the sheets and before you know it, you're going sixteen knots. The Technora, full-battened radial main was so stiff that you really couldn't adjust it anyway, so that freed-up one hand for holding your beverage. These days, if I want to play string-puller, I do it in the Mini-12 which I have loaded-up with about as many gizmos as the Star had, plus it has spinnakers. Rounding a leeward buoy, tightening everything back up, stowing the pole and bagging a spinnaker all while heeled way over and steering with your feet is a real trip.
With Dacron sails on a traditional boat, I think it's probably worth doing some rig re-configuration for a downwind leg as long as the leg is reasonably long and the systems allow a smooth flow of crew work without excessively distracting the major players from sailing the boat.
[ 08-09-2002, 02:00 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]
Ed Harrow
08-09-2002, 12:27 PM
Go for it Donn. You'll love it (well you'd better love it...)
As for books, like I told MM, First you have to row a little boat is a great read. Some years ago, when I taught some sailing classes, that was required reading.
Bill Perkins
08-10-2002, 02:02 PM
Donn as noted you would row to windward in a type like this when in constricted waters . That's part of their beauty and handiness. Now thinking of your typical downwind return , zipping along with the boom swung out about perpendicular to the boat as you approach the 20 ft. entrance channel : I'd keep the boomed sprit sail shown ( as opposed to the sprit boom rigged on the Crawford boats you posted ), with the addition of a topping lift rigged as described by Ben Fuller in his recent WB article on the sprit rig . I've used such a rig for years . A pull on this one line brails the whole rig up tight to the mast . You'd then come gliding home like a Swan , with the boat under full control . A single oar works well with a rudder . Occasionally when it's really windy the windage of the brailed rig alone may give the boat too much speed , and too little maneuverability . Then the whole rig needs to be jerked out . I think an anchor rigged ready to run could save you from embarrassment or worse as you get the hang of bringing any sailboat into your constricted leeshore canal system .
Such a sail rig is also very quick to deploy , which would come in handy when you're headed Out . The oars can be stored and the rig pulled down and be drawing before the boat is blown beam to the wind and wave , and/ or back into the channel .
I used a sprit boomed rig that came with my boat ( a Ducker ) for a few years and it made good down wind landings with the boom allowed to swing straight in front of the boat , but you need room for this , or you'll prong something , plus the flapping sail has allot of windage when it's windy . Nothings quite as good as being able to bundle the rig up tight to the mast without leaveing your seat .
[ 08-12-2002, 09:13 PM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]
CharlieZ
08-11-2002, 09:02 AM
Don,
Bill's got it. Brail it up an row it out; pull the cord and sail away. Your alternatives are bigger bother: more boat to hold a motor, transom brackets, smell, noise, annoyance, expense.
The Seaford is a great little boat and is *very right* on the GSB; they draw near nothing. A really simple sailer, too. The old guys got it right.
A friend's seaford skiff (a Ketcham, I think) is completely fastened with little bronze screws and nuts. Unusual.
Next, you'll need an ice scooter...
Regards,
Charlie
PS - Ian, did you forget to yell, "Starboard!" I'm sure it would have made a big difference.
[ 08-11-2002, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: CharlieZ ]
seedy
08-11-2002, 08:26 PM
What are the differences in pricing between the two?
I'm getting an ominous "need to learn to sail" feeling, and I feel compelled to start small, but I know that I'll want to go fast, so the Tuck is intriguing. I live near a large freshwater lake (on the Susquehanna)and I'm not far from Chesapeake bay; would it be a good boat to play with, knowing that I might take a swim or two during my learning curve?
Could the Tuck's jib be made self-tending, even at the expense of some speed and beauty?
Anybody know of any other ideas for a small learning craft that I could find at a decent price in the Baltimore/DC area?
David Mendes
08-12-2002, 04:38 AM
The Seaford Skiff and the Melonseed are basically the same boat.
I received permission from Mystic Seaport and Barry Thomas (who wrote a lovely small book about Building the Herreshoff Dinghy) to have an article by Mr. Thomas posted on the web which the Seaport had published about the Seaford skiff and the Melonseed. It appears at the following link: http://home.earthlink.net/~follansbee4/melonhead/mystic_mseed.html which is part of a melonseed web page: http://home.earthlink.net/~follansbee4/melonhead/
In addition to the Crawford Boatbuilding site, there is a lot of information about sailing Melonseeds, both Crawford's fiberglass version and wooden ones, at the very active yahoo discussion group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/melonseedskiffmelonheads/ A link to the group also appears on the Crawford Melonseed site: www.melonseed.com (http://www.melonseed.com)
The Crawford Melonseed's sprit boom rig is very handy and no trouble at all to set up. It's also high enough so there is no head-banging and makes jibing a cinch. The boat is also a pleasure to row.
Hope this helps,
David Mendes
Ya'll have me interested. SWMBO is on board as well. It'll fit better in the boathouse with LOON, and the fiberglass dory can live outside.
I can't find any listings for a Seaford Skiff for sale, so I have nothing to reference regarding a value/price. What's a fair price neighborhood for a 14 x 4 probably cedar planked sailboat that's in sailing shape?
Bringing this back to the top...hoping to get some feedback on a general price range for a wooden Seaford Skiff. I found listings for used Tucks, but can't find any listings for Seafords.
John of Phoenix
08-13-2002, 11:01 AM
Best I could come with was a new glass Melonseed for $7000. Guess you'll have to build one. :D
I spoke to the builder, and will be looking at a Seaford tomorrow. He thinks the ownner wants about $3,000. I should be able to post pics tomorrow afternoon.
The builder's (Paul Ketcham) boat. NOT for sale at any price.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid29/p21a73d9c4d08b31f9d563f4a461ae6ca/fd5f3bf4.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid29/p06f545da4f5b17f5f279f16519f4e220/fd5f3bd5.jpg
= = = = =
An oldie, in for restoration:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid29/pfe4e9002c9c7779e0fdcbb9d790f0028/fd5f3bec.jpg
= = = = =
Another one, across the canal from the builder, also not for sale, but very similar paint job to the one that is for sale for "around" $3,000:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid29/pe4a744dda199791df3d9837f43deed41/fd5f3be3.jpg
imported_Steven Bauer
08-21-2002, 09:08 PM
They look great Donn, it'd be nice to have a sailboat with local historic ties. Judging from some of your other projects I'm sure you could build a sailboat yourself if you tried. Doing a little restoration if needed is good for boat/owner bonding, also.
Steven
Todd Bradshaw
08-21-2002, 10:29 PM
Boat/owner bonding, a very interesting and very true concept. It generally takes a lot of "How the hell am I gonna's" and "Why in hell did they's" mixed with a smattering of "I guess I'm gonna have to's" but in the end it becomes your boat and nobody else understands it quite as well as you do.
CharlieZ
08-22-2002, 07:40 AM
You'll need to paint her flat, get an old Damascus shotgun, touch up the blocks and we'll see you out there off the state channel.
Get started, November is only a short time away!
Scott Rosen
08-22-2002, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Todd Bradshaw:
Boat/owner bonding, a very interesting and very true concept. It generally takes a lot of "How the hell am I gonna's" and "Why in hell did they's" mixed with a smattering of "I guess I'm gonna have to's" but in the end it becomes your boat and nobody else understands it quite as well as you do.That's gotta be the best summation of restoration work that I've ever read.
Donn, go for it. Get a Seaford by hook or by crook. You won't be sorry. The sprit rig is easy to learn on, and when you get a little more advanced, you can play with the sail shape by simply using one hand to pull the boom.
John of Phoenix
08-22-2002, 10:47 AM
Classic lines on those beauties. Are plans available, or is Mr. Ketcham the only builder?
holzbt
08-22-2002, 12:39 PM
Plans are available from Mystic Seaport. They have the plans for the Ketcham boat as well as several others. Paul Ketcham probably won't build any more new ones although he still repairs and restores a few a year.
Bill Perkins
08-22-2002, 07:43 PM
This prompted me to get out my old copy of Watercraft . The boat in the Museum collection Holzbt mentions was built around 1948 and " is one of about 40 reproductions of an 1880 boat by Samuel Gritman all built by Paul A. Ketcham , Amityville , LI. "
The author has suggestions for furthur reading . " The Seaford Skiff " The Amityville Record , October 11,1962 .
Thomas , Barry. " The Mellonseed and the Seaford Skiff " The log of Mystic Seaport , Summer , 1974
Weeks , George L.Jr. " The Seaford Skiff " Yachting , January 1952. - "Good history by one who was there doing some of it" .
Bill..Paul built one at Mystic much more recently than 1948. He's 67 now, which means he was 13 in 1948. He started building the skiffs after he got out of the Navy. I think the '48 model was donated by a woman who owned an early Seaford Skiff.
I'll ask him about plans tomorrow.
He's a funny old guy. He was really impressed with Roger's visit today, and would have chatted all day if Roger didn't have to leave. He loves the interest in his skiffs, and is going to find me a beater, and help me restore it.
Dave Fleming
08-22-2002, 08:26 PM
Good for you O&O East! Sounds like a good winters project and a good learning experience from the builder himself.
This fellow sounds like quite a character.
As most old boat types seem to be. Must be something in the bottom paint. ;)
Dave...hopefully it won't be this winter...SWMBO has other plans for my hands and back this winter.
Dave Fleming
08-22-2002, 08:36 PM
Oh yeah, I forgot the FLOOR!
Bill Perkins
08-22-2002, 10:09 PM
Don it seems that Manard Bray was wrong on this one ; at least there's some confusion . The Doner is listed as John Zimmerman .Is it a reproduction of the Gritman boat done by some other builder ? If the date of construction was known ( ca. 1948 ) it seems like the builder would be known . Maybe Mr. Bray just slipped up on the date , and the boat was indeed built by Ketchman .But you state that the boat was donated by a woman ; where'd you get that info ?
holzbt
08-22-2002, 10:54 PM
Mystic has two Ketcham skiffs. The one from 1948 was built by Paul Ketcham's father. These were modeled/copied from an older skiff built by Grittman. Paul Ketcham loaned his molds and building jig to mystic to copy so they could build another several years back. This newer boat is now in the boat livery. Paul Ketcham went to mystic while they were building it to help/show them how he built them. So Mystics newer boat is a reproduction of a Ketcham which is a reproduction of late 1800's Grittman skiff.
Bill Perkins
08-23-2002, 07:08 AM
Thanks for the clarification . There are a couple of boats in the livery I'd like to see and try when I next get up that way . Being able to have a trial sail in a design befor one buys plans is a unique opportunity .
Here's the listing for a Seaford in Mystic's fleet:
Seaford Skiff (Helen Packer, 1998) 14' x 4' PA
That's where I got the idea that it was donated by a woman.
http://www.mysticseaport.org/participate/po-fleet.htm
Bill Perkins
08-23-2002, 10:06 AM
Oh great , hadn't seen the Seaports website .Lookes like Helen Packer is the Name of the boat in the Livery , built at Mystic as Holzbt described .I see my copy of Watercraft (1979 ) has become a museum piece itself , gotta buy the new one .
Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
11-21-2002, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by JohnT:
You mean about the same amount of experience YOU have donn?? WOW!! First Cold Spring Joe, now donnwest goes bi on us. :D :D
Sure, you could sail that little jewel. Nothing to it.Boy you guys aint never gonna let that one rest are ya LOL smile.gif
Donn I know its been said before but you will never experience the sense of speed as you will wile handling a small sail boat. The Spirit sail in the first photo is simple as hell to handle -- by the way what the *&%$% is that gray hulk of Crap in the background eeeew that's got to be one of the butt ass ugliest boat I have laid my eyes on :eek: .
The second photo you show looks like a hell of a lot more fun to me to sail, but definitely not a nice little fishing boat - Personally I have yet to find time to fish wile minding the lines single handed on any sailboat. If your thinking of a sailboat for fishing I just don't get it. A fishing sailboat is a lot of work for little movement. First you have to set the rig up then sail to your spot then drop the rig and fish forget about trolling, then you have to raise the sail to move to a new spot or get back. That's only if you have a great sailing ability to navigate the tide & wind in the Great South Bay. My feeling is get a sail boat to sail use that Garvy to fish, nice motor on it and zoom the where there biting and relax zoom back to port with your catch. If you really want a sail boat that's a nice one - real nice but enjoy the sailing let the garvy or Loon catch the fish for ya
Ian McColgin
11-22-2002, 09:36 AM
The essential secret to fishing while sailing is being able to sail on pure feel while your attention is on the fish. Convenient ways to raise your skill to this point include:
- Sailing blindfolded (after either being sure you're well clear of have someone aboard as spotter. When you can rig the boat, set sail and leave the mooring blindfolded, when you can tack, gybe and sail a straight course blindfolded, when you can trim or ease sheets blindfolded, you're getting there.
- Sail looking backwards.
- Sail with one foot on the tiller and the other controling the main sheet.
- Learn to tie a bowline with your bare feet. (I can do a one handed bowline but I've not mastered a one footed bowline - yet.)
Etc.
The neatest thing about being human is the way our tools become actual extensions of our bodies. When we use a hammer, it's like our own fists. I've watched my old daddy land a 747 with the same feel and confidence as most people have just sitting down in a chair. He could feel the wheels' proximity to the tarmac.
So too with a good boatman.
I'd taken a charter over to Cotuit and anchored up under Dead Neck to make lunch. The party - husband and wife - were a little restless but knowing that she was a good boater I suggested they take Leeward for a spin.
Unfortunatly the wind was honking from the southwest and the husband determined that he had to row. Off they blew down the shallows along Great Island. I was just wondering what to do when this ancient fellow in a big old cat boat sailed up and hove to off my starboard side.
(Point one - an effortless heave-to in a cat boat on a windyt day in very crowded conditions.)
"Want me to get your lost chickens?" he called.
"Sure."
And he was off. Roared across the flats down wind with the board up. Rounded up just ahead of Leeward and (still board up) skidded past her bow while he plucked the painter up with his boat hook, broad reached into the channel to get the board down, and then short tacked about a mile back to me. Planted his final heave-to just ahead of Goblin so that Leeward settled nicly alongside while I plucked the painter.
All the while he looked utterly relaxed and half asleep.
I think that old fellow could probably sail and fish and do any other half dozen things at once.
Joe: "by the way what the *&%$% is that gray hulk of Crap in the background eeeew.."
Looks like a custom Garvey to me, Joe...with a nice little cabin on it. It was a very common hull form on the bay, in all sizes and configurations.
The Seabright Skiff will be my sailboat, and with a sprit rig on her, should do just fine for the kind of fishing I do in the bay, which is largely drifting, or tossing a hook and still fishing.
Hey Joe, you mean you haven't caugh up to what a garvey is yet? - Almost 100% functional & can be lots of fun. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid14/p725cedfc8b63d26b42bcdb5576387511/fde2bd2c.jpg
Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
11-23-2002, 08:09 AM
I know what a garvey is there usually open and they have a nice rustic 100% functional look to them. I even Mentioned Donns Garvery he is restoring - Donn Please dont make a cabin on her :eek: That one in the photo with the home built custom cabin well to my eyes is just plane ugly. Like putting a pig in a dress would make better bacon - ( I just coined that)
[ 11-23-2002, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]
Edward Kauf
02-03-2003, 11:26 AM
The butt ugly grey hull in the background of the photo appears to be the custom garvey that Paul Ketchum Jr. built for himself in the early 80's.
garland reese
02-03-2003, 02:01 PM
Donn,
Did you find yourself a Seabright to purchase, or have you gotten one yet? I've had a yearning for a Melonseed (in wood construction) since I saw the Crawford boats a few years ago. These types (Seabright, Jersey Melonseeds, ) are very fine looking little boats.
I keep hashing over the Chappelle drawings for the 'seed....... Here's a modern wooden one.....
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/groups/melonseedskiffmelonheads/Wooden+Melonseed+launch/Before+launching.jpg?bc12rP.AejAqylNu
1968, 18' Charles Hankin Sea Bright Skiff
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid37/p703a188e46696ebb4bd94a177766aea2/fd1b8817.jpg
It's sitting in my carport, beside a 1935 Wilbur Ketcham Garvey, which is being worked on first.
More here. (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291186715)
ishmael
02-03-2003, 02:39 PM
Donn,
Are you still planning to put a small rig in the Seabright? Seems it would fit for most of what you were contemplating the Seaford for. It won't do much to windward, especially if you don't fit a centerboard, but for tootling around, doing a little fishing, a little pot hauling, it will be finest kind.
I just gotta say again, that that is one hell of a good looking boat.
Jack
Wild Wassa
02-03-2003, 02:48 PM
My question is, could a fellow with very little sailing experience handle a boat like this ? - donnwest:
The lecturers say, "after twenty hours" things will click.
If you have a few races, as well, at any level, that's when it all comes together. The purpose for doing what you do clicks.
Warren.
On Vacation
02-03-2003, 02:50 PM
Originally posted by Edward Kauf:
The butt ugly grey hull in the background of the photo appears to be the custom garvey that Paul Ketchum Jr. built for himself in the early 80's.I have found most of my own OPINIONS count when I am willing to share in the labor and materials of such items. :D
Jack..the Sea Bright will have a sprit rig, a centerboard, and a little inboard engine.
Anyone know what Oyster's talking about?
ishmael
02-03-2003, 03:07 PM
Haven't a clue. :D
Oh, and regarding learning to sail, and this type of rig specifically, you might want to join the TSCA, Traditional Small Craft Association. They could likely hook you up with people in your area with boats so rigged who would be looking for crew. They'd also be likely helpful in designing the rig and centerboard for your boat.
http://www.tsca.net/
[ 02-03-2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]
Jack...I'm gonna get holzbt to teach me to sail. :D (Right, Roger?)
Oh yeah...I have a drawing based on Hankin's suggested rig, and Roger will design the CB.
[ 02-03-2003, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Donn Westervelt ]
On Vacation
02-03-2003, 03:33 PM
Donn, I find it mighty strange that you don't understand simple stuff like the comment of someone calling the boat that Ketchum built as butt ugly. I don't think he bothered to ask anyone what they thought. He built it himself, arranging it himself how he wanted it, himself. I guess its just too simple to understand.
I can just hear you telling someone that its nice to hear your boat is butt ugly. The first word out of your mouth would be , "ITS MY BOAT AND I WILL PAINT IT THE COLOR I WANT IT, MAKE THE CABIN INSIDE WHAT I WANT IT TO BE LIKE, TO SUIT ME, UNLESS THEY WOULD BE WILLING TO SHARE IN THE REDOING OF IT" Just to simple.
Yea Jack, I guess you would like to hear from us about the property and house you are attempting to purchase being butt ugly. Lets all march to the same drummer. Geewizz.
ishmael
02-03-2003, 03:42 PM
Com'on Oyster Mike,
I just didn't understand your post. That's the long and short of it. I guess I do now.
Be well,
Jack
Edward Kauf
02-07-2003, 08:25 PM
I might have been unclear in my reply about the "butt ugly" boat. When I first saw Mr.Ketchum building the boat I also thought it was rather unrefined looking. Now I can say that I would love to have a boat like that. The ketchums, both father, and son seem to have a dislike for varnish, and a taste for those old
traditional colors.
By The Way. Holzbt taught me how to sail. He saw me accept a tow when trying to sail my old Bluejay. He jumped in his Beetlecat and threatend
to ram me if I didn't start moving. I will never forget that day. That was twenty three years ago, and I have never accepted a tow since. Funny thing is he always seems to be right at my slip if I happen to Ahhhhh bump the ahhhh bulkhead!
holzbt
10-24-2004, 08:30 PM
Well, it's been a while since Donn asked about a Seaford skiff. I just saw an ad in a local paper for one in excellent condition with good sails for $3000. These don't turn up very often as there were only 69 boats built between 1947-48 and about 1973. They are still used for frostbiting and summer racing and mostly seem to stay in the original families. The phone # in the ad. (516)679-3031 http://www.members.tripod.com/narrasketuckyc/images/sskiff.jpg
[ 10-25-2004, 08:12 AM: Message edited by: holzbt ]
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